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JasperDm wrote:

I can accept that each setting has their own spectrum of viewpoints...but even so, the frustration that all these changes keep happening without even so much as an explanation. If you're going to collapse the inner planes and explode the Great Ring...I want a canon reason WHY. If I see one, I'll be happier, same as with Die Vecna Die -trying- to explain 3rd's changes.

The reason is because they are using a different cosmology for the default setting. There is no cannon reason because the great wheel never existed in the cannon of the new setting.

As I would most likely be a member of the Fraternity of Order, lets approach this rationally.

Let us start by laying out the things we can all agree on. A foundation to build the rest of our ideas from.

1.)We like Planescape – the setting, not necessarily the stand-alone products or their implementation, but the ideas presented.

2.)We like Sigil – The City of Doors. Its role as the “center” (metaphorically speaking, not necessarily physically) is compelling.

These seem to be two tenants we can all agree upon. If you do not agree with these tenants and you have no interest in seeing a 4E implementation of these ideas, then what are you doing here? Assuming we can all agree on that, lets move on to what Mark Rosewater would call the non-negotiables of Sigil. I want to restrict these to just Sigil, not all of Planescape. A good deal of discussion has been focused on struggling to see how this is implemented in 4E without alignments in regards to Gate Towns, i.e. people become more selfish and the place slips into Carceri. I am not concerned with the Gate Towns or outlands at this point, only Sigil. My reasons for this are two fold. First, Sigil is the only thing that has been mentioned thus far in printed material. Second, I believe Sigil will actually work better under the new cosmology, but that will take some explaining.

1.)Sigil is a planar metropolis – This means several things. First and perhaps most obviously, it is a city, not just a series of doors or the Worlds Edge Inn (which was itself just a bad take off of Gaiman’s Inn of Sandman fame). This city has a populace and a reason for existing.
2.)Sigil is ruled by the Lady of Pain – The Lady is a mysterious figure who maintains more or less complete control over the city without actually interfering much in its daily activities. She keeps out other gods. Who/What/Why she is remains a mystery.
3.)Sigil has lots of portals – Again, if this metropolis exists, there must be some way to get here and the reason classically given to reach this place was through portals or magical doors from other realms. The idea of a “center” of the universe outside of time and space has a long history in mythology and storytelling and I believe that is ultimately why Sigil is such a compelling place.
4.)Sigil is a place where IDEAS matter – Notice I said ideas, not alignments. I think one of the classic misinterpretations of 2e Planescape was that the factions were based on alignments. This was simply not true. Two of the factions had strong ties to one alignment above all else (The Fraternity of Order and the Xaosetics), but even they were not obsessed with the alignment of Law or Chaos, they were obsessed with the IDEA. The idea is what came first, then you simply made your alignment on your character sheet match that preconceived notion. Let me put this more plainly, Can you imagine a member of the Fraternity of Order who was not lawful? Or a Xaosetic who wasn’t chaotic? I can’t. But can you picture a lawful (alignment) person who disagrees with the stated goals of the Fraternity of Order. You bet you can. The alignment was a crutch to represent on your sheet the IDEA your character had. In 4E without a lawful or chaotic alignment, you are free to completely pursue your idea, no longer needing the false crutch. Anyone in the Fraternity of Order will act just the same. Their sheet may say unaligned BECAUSE THEY ARE! They don’t care about Good or Evil, just order in the universe. And so on with the other factions. Ultimately, the factions were about extreme versions of real world philosophies that mutated in the game world. That line is just as compelling in the new universe, with or without a wheel to support it. In fact, the factions are more free to follow just the idea now, without having to be concerned about whether or not the action that idea would lead to would be breaking the code of their alignment. As to the idea of “Why would anyone follow the factions ideas if they couldn’t cause a city to slide in Carceri as a result” I say poppycock. Why do people fanatically follow IDEAS in real life? Right now there are leftist communist rebels who want to attack the pro-capitalism forces. Members of jihadist groups fight other countries soldiers. Do any of these people fight because they follow an alignment? No of course not, they follow a set of ideas and the fight to build power or achieve the stated goal of their ideas.

Sigil in 4E

So what does Sigil look like in 4E then given the above parameters. Sigil is a city composed of planar inhabitants (this is the point of contention that would need to be worked out, who/what level/what races, etc), ruled distantly by the Lady of Pain. The city’s main power brokers are factions that fanatically serve a certain idea. These factions come into friction and attempt to constantly build their own power base and advance their ideas primacy in the minds of the other citizens. The city has portals that lead all corners of the multiverse.

Does this sound familiar? It should, its Sigil in any game. All of the other business is noise. These kernels, these ideas are what set Sigil apart and made it a compelling setting. It is these ideas that buried themselves into our brains to such a degree that we still discuss this imaginary place passionately to this day.

Okay, I finished a player survey this weekend and with that information I have set forth on a campaign creation. The players wanted an enviroment that allowed for many diffrent concepts to be mashed together (planescape, rifts, and spelljammer were named as models along with many other ideas that could not be related without an open back drop).

I have thus gone with the idea of an updated version that I am calling Oubliette.

The following is the 'history'/'creation' myth to the existence of Oubliette. [may be a bit long but several players noted they wanted some detail to go with their campaign]

How it Came to Be

People as they wander the city streets and great bridges of Oubliette wonder how they came to be here in the City of Bridges.

Long ago, the Gods arrived in the known from the unknown. They were not the first to arrive here and they were not the first to build the existences that are referred to as the Material. They were not even the second but instead are thought to be the third to come to this existence.

The first that still have some semblance of names were the elemental forces but it is even possible that there was a more primordial existence then these great lords.

After the elemental powers it is know that there came the Primordials. They are sometimes referred to as the first bringers of order. It is known that they were the first to separate the elemental powers away from the rest of the known. This first separation was believed to be the first war in the known. It is said that this is why all creatures to this day continue to fight and strive with each other. Other sages speculate that the roots of war go beyond this to the deep past that even the elementals have forgotten.

It was this separation that is believed to have created the border area known as the middle lands or the middle kingdoms. Arguments abound among scholars if there is but one middle kingdom and all others are but reflections like imperfect images in the water or whether there are many separate individual kingdoms.

It really does not matter but the creation of the middle kingdoms separated the elemental chaos from the astral realms. Now insulated from the chaos of the elementals, the Primordials were free to pursue their own pursuits without worry of the constant destructive chaos of the elementals.

Like fat kings the Primordials safe in their homes let eons creep by without knowing or caring for change.

Then came the time of the gods. Where they came from and why they left their previous homes it is unknown. What they found when they arrived was a rich existence with little interest in the new arrivals.

The Primordials first welcomed the gods for they brought a new freshness to their rotting existence. The gods saw opportunity in the middle kingdoms and planted seeds of new life and change.

The Primordials finding the new races moving in the middle kingdoms were amazed with the novel idea and soon created their own races to rule and subjugate the races of the gods. The Primordials had created the middle kingdoms; so, it was only right that their races ruled and subjugated the races of the gods.

The gods soon realized that this pattern on the middle kingdoms was starting to be played out in the heavens too. The Primordials started to treat the Gods as beings to be enslaved and forced to full fill the will of the Primordials.

The gods had found allies in the heavens in the form of angels. The angels were pure astral formed around the core of an ideal. Depending upon the ideal the angel lived out that purpose serving all who would offer it employment. Some would work for material rewards and some would work for spiritual goals.

The gods with their allies that they had created in the middle kingdoms and the angels fought the second great war of the heavens and overthrew the Primordials.

This is thought to be the start of the new beginning of the middle kingdoms. It was a time when Gods now walked the world and spoke advice to their favourite worshipers.

It was also a time when the freedom that the gods started to experience led them to battle and struggle with each other. Some have wondered how a god like Gruumsh could lose an eye while granting the ability to their clerics to regenerate limbs and eyes.

The Gods of this time fought to install bans or restrictions on each other. Defeat in battle allowed the other god to impose a ban on the other god. Respecting the ban was the only way to maintain order among the gods. To not respect a ban was to invite true warfare and destruction.

While the system of the bans worked, some gods though refused to accept the system. They started to encroach on other gods portfolios and started to form kingdoms declaring themselves as greater and other gods as lesser.

It is likely a war would have broken out among the gods at this point if it had not been for the rebellion of the angels. Some of the angels led by Asmodeus revolted against the gods. Some scholars argue that the angels did not rebel against the gods but it was merely the gods growing paranoia that saw in the actions of the angels rebellion.

The gods tell that they had given orders to the angels on things they wanted built or changed upon the middle kingdoms and the angels were only selectively doing their will. The fact that many of the orders given by the various gods were often contradictory or would have caused large amounts of destruction to the middle kingdoms was no reason for the angels to not follow the god's commands.

The gods finally called Asmodeus, the leader of the largest faction of the angels to account for the lack of following of their orders. Asmodeus claimed that the actions taken were in the best interest of the middle kingdoms and further that Asmodeus knew more of how the middle kingdoms needed to be managed to make them turn out.

This was out right rebellion and so the war of god and angels began. This is sometimes referred by sages as the third great war of the heavens. Asmodeus seeking allies from the onslaught of all the gods and their followers sought safety beyond the barrier of the middle kingdoms in the elemental chaos.

It was here that Asmodeus's followers changed and took on their new name of devils.

It was also here that the devils arrival was not welcome. The elemental powers were mostly unaffected by the events that had transpired in the realms above. There were though those Primordials that had been cast into the elemental chaos or used it to escape from the eyes of the gods.

It was in this elemental chaos that the Primordials had started to cross and breed with the elementals and form the Demons. Creatures that were unlike the elementals in that they were more aware and knew that the Gods hated them because they were the children of the Primordials.

Born in hate and a product of hate; the demons returned the hate with constant violence. Trapped beyond the barrier of the middle kingdoms, the gods did not worry on the bastard children of the Primordials. The demons thus released their hatred and violence on all the elements and on each other.

The arrival of the devils though brought one more fraction to the elemental chaos. One more thing to be hated by the demons. The devils, fresh from their war in the heavens were forced into a long drawn out war that crossed barriers into many of the middle kingdoms.

The more vicious the conflict, the more that the demons and devils began to change and develop. Each looked for some way to gain advantage on the other. The gods noted this war and encouraged it for they thought the more these groups fought the less likely they would turn their attention upon the middle kingdoms and the heavens beyond.

Free from the rebellion of Asmodeus and the devils, the gods again settled into their homes. The loss of so many angels meant there was space again for many lesser gods to rule in the heavens. The gods lacked servants that they could trust and the lesser gods feared that they too would be banished to try and live beyond the lands of the middle kingdoms.

Time past and heroes rose and fell in the middle kingdoms. The gods that had walked with the people of the world now again began to argue among themselves as who should be declared the greatest and who should own which portfolios.

Younger named gods were growing in popularity while older gods were being forgotten. The older gods complained that the newer gods were offering too much and providing endless powers and gifts upon their favoured champions. The accusation was that the young gods needed to remember who had defeated the Primordials and who kept them at bay.

Thus did begin the fourth conflict in the heavens. It was a battle of the gods against the gods. This time parents fought with each other and slaughtered their children as the children murdered their parents. The great wheel was broken as gods fought among each other. Some of the realms were smashed in the great sundering. Some of the pieces still flow like flying Dutchman of the astral sea while others crashed into or through the middle kingdoms into the elemental chaos below.

A few gods soon formed an alliance of order that included both factions that were known for good and evil but together had the common goal that their vision of middle kingdoms and the heavens would have them declared the greatest of all.

This war was won when the gods made a deal with the devils. They granted Asmodeus a place in the heavens with the devils if they would help in the winning of the war. Asmodeus was more then happy to relocate the devils to the astral heavens away from the elemental chaos and the demons. The separation of the devils and the demons ended the blood war or made it almost impossible to continue. Still these two groups remember long the scars of the past despite what their leaders have officially told them.

There is a new order in the heavens. All others had to choose to work for the gods or spend their remaining existence in the Oubliette.

Oubliette is what happened to Sigil in the fall of the great wheel. The war of factions had been ended. With the destruction of the great wheel, the city of spire was cast adrift into the astral. Now it is a ring drifting in the astral sea suffering quakes as it contorts and twists into a new shape or form to match the new heavens.

Previously referred to as the city of doors for the portals that it held, the great gods have locked the doors and placed guardians on the exits. This is the Oubliette where they have now banished those that would not choose to quietly except the new order.

This is why it is now sometimes called the city of a thousand gods for all the gods of the many planes have been rounded up and placed here to await the great gods judgement. The great gods are though loathe to attempt final destruction on so many gods. There are still many worshipers for these gods and while they exist the gods can siphon off the divine energy that the worshipers generate.

There is also a fear that if they start a mass purge of these gods then the remaining gods in the alliance might choose a few of the remaining gods are now too many and need to be eliminated.

The gods of Oubliette are also a repository of secrets and power that the gods in power still want to tap as they seek some advantage over the remaining gods.

G-pa wrote:

Firstly and most urgently, I love Tofurky and eat two of them every year.

Second and most sincerely, I loved Planescape for many reasons.

Thirdly and most critically, if it is no longer the case that rampant selfishness and paranoia can drag a town into Carceri, then why would there be "philosophers with clubs?" and without philosophers with clubs, all that wonderful Planescape material rings hollow.

Reluctantly, I'm gonna have to agree with G-pa for once on this one.

I can understand your points of view.

Ramses

I can also see that there is a place for something else that is a plane spanning campaign. A world or metropolis with gates to all these possabilities is to me a tool like a star ship in a sci-fi campaign. It allows the DM to tell many stories and link the plots together.

I also like the concept of very opposed groups living in this same enviroment in a modicrum of civility due to an imposed rule or authority.

My aim with my listing of groups is to replace the philosophies of the planes with the concepts or ideas of what to do with all the prisoners. While I have not done a one to one mapping of the previous factions, I have provided a selection of groups that have goals based upon natures of people that would exist within a fictional prison.

You have the people that want to appease the guards. You have the people that are on death row. You have the people that will sell you anything within the prison. You have the people that will sell out your secrets to the guards. You have people that have lost their homes and families. You have people that plan on escaping. You have people that are trying to run their previous business from the prison. You have people that are planning suicide or to go into exile.

Sure, it is not a basic philosophy based on the great wheel but I think it is a fair campaign idea for usage of the original city of Sigil.

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Arcane

I find the thought kinda odd to me.

I can understand not wanting to have Kender running through Ebberon campaigns.

OTOH, I personally have had very little problem with cross polination of ideas.

The arrival of Ebberon has meant many Shifters and Warforged have appeared in other campaigns that are not Ebberon. Ebberon now has Drow and other races transplanted.

In 'official' adventures and stories, I can see the desire to limit the cross polination but I think DnD has a history of grabbing what it likes and tossing it into what ever backstory or campaign that they like.

Planescape was sometimes used as a 'convenient' vehicle as was Spelljammer. OTOH if it had not been for those existing settings then likely and author or DM would have used some 'vehicle' like the Mists of Ravenloft to put together the pieces that they wanted in their campaign. I can not see Planescape being a villain that forces changes upon a campaign world since it is only a tool that an author could use.

Take the example of Dragonborn appearing in the realms. A whole continent is going to arrive out of some mists of discovery. Hardly subtle in approach but it works if you want it to be that way.

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Back to Oubliette

Why would people adventure in the Oubliette

+ The thousands of gods still have ties to the middle kingdoms and many have secret stashes of power and items throughout the realms.
+ The great gods want to give the thousands of gods enough room to manoeuvre to allow their own spies and agents to take advantage of any discoveries.
+ People wishing to steal the secrets and power of the immortals
People that reject the new rule of the great gods
+ Devils that seek to create opportunities and advantage for themselves
+ Demons seeking a way to get into the astral realms
+ Creatures from beyond the known that have found their way into the known and would set themselves up as gods
+ Mercenaries willing to serve the highest bidder
+ People seeking a way to overthrow the great gods
+ People on the run from various middle kingdoms
+ Merchants that cater to the exotic or wish to purchase things that exist no where else
+ People seeking talents to purchase for jobs that no one else would do
+ Refugees that had their homes destroyed in the latest great war
+ Enemies seeking neutral ground