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5 years ago ::
May 28, 2008 - 1:55AM
#31
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2001
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... Unfortunately, it was from me using what I felt was the "smart way" ... Fun had by all, but I had to keep biting my lip about how poor the built-in tactics were for the encounter (IMHO)...
Just to repeat it: Remember, they are kobolds. They are not very bright. They are lazy. They want to kill of enemies with traps. They don't want to fight 
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
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5 years ago ::
May 28, 2008 - 10:28AM
#32
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Date Joined:
Dec 14, 2006
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Just to repeat it: Remember, they are kobolds. They are not very bright. They are lazy. They want to kill of enemies with traps. They don't want to fight
I agree with you, but these Kobolds are deadly. I DM'd the game with 5 seasoned players and with the delay of 3 rounds between the two waves [in the Irontooth encounter] and even if they managed to kill all mobs, they finally died from Irontooth (all of them) using up all their daily powers, encounter powers, second winds and action points.
The silly thing is that it would have been easier to pin the goblin down and stab him to death. Too bad there aren't any rules for that in the adventure :'(
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5 years ago ::
May 30, 2008 - 10:07PM
#33
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Date Joined:
Dec 13, 2006
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Thompson, Thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. Having never played World of Warcraft I can’t compare 4e with the computer game. I have played the various Warcraft games up to the “Frozen Throne” and I enjoyed them. I have played Star craft, and I still enjoy playing a game of star craft every once in a while, but I have never played World of Warcraft. My friends told me how much time it sucked up . Between work related photography, my personal photography, Tae Kwon do, an attempt at a social life, and D%D, there isn’t room for Wow. So I can’t make the comparisons.
I do intellectually understand, that when I am playing a cleric, I can’t always keep everyone on their feet, but with two characters being killed, and two dropped to negative hit points, every combat encounter, something must be going wrong and I have difficulty not feeling somewhat responsible. But there we are. One critical difference I realize is that the DM isn’t running the monsters, an extra player usually does. They don’t pull their punches and try to beat the party.
As for the frustration, I think it stems from more then one source. 1) The rules are new and I am unfamiliar with them. 2) I have no rulebook to read and digest. 3) I have no means of comparison, nor can I learn by making associations between 4e and 3.5 with out the rulebooks. 3) After reading and purchasing the preview books Wotc presents races and classes, and monsters and worlds, I constantly came across the refrain “this game will increase your fun, its more exciting”. This became irksome because the publishers were not backing their statements up with any examples I could sink my teeth into and come to my own conclusions over. I realize they were simply on a sales pitch.
4) The DM so far seems intent on dragging us along into 4e even though most of the players at the table have voiced their desire to return to the 3.5 game we were running.
To me it seems like having to compose photograph with out being able to see through the viewfinder. AlI can do is point the camera in the general direction and take the photograph.
Thank you for the advice about healing. It will take getting used to.
You are using some terminology I am not entirely familiar with. You mention defenders and leaders. Is a defender the party tank? What is the “leader?” Thank you.
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5 years ago ::
May 31, 2008 - 11:08AM
#34
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2001
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You are using some terminology I am not entirely familiar with. You mention defenders and leaders. Is a defender the party tank? What is the “leader?” Thank you.
Leaders are the cleric and the warlord. Basically they can heal and buff (grant bonuses to the other characters attacks and defenses)
Defenders take the damage and try to make sure that nobody attacks the parties less durable characters (Especially the wizard and the rogue). They also can deal some significant damage.
Btw, taking the warlord (the bonus char for download) with you is a big plus in the fights against elites. Your DM should help you figuring out who the elites are by describing them as better armored, togher looking or simply making a better impression.
A combo which is particulary useful is the following (if you have a warlord):
Cleric attacks the boss with a lance of faith, using an action point, which grants him +2 to the attack.
The rogue moves the boss into a position where the warlord has or can easily gain combat advantage (delay if necessary. It isn't even a bad idea for all party members to delay so that they can act as one group in some encounters)
The warlord uses his action point to attack the boss with his daily power
to attack the boss. He has an additional +6 bonus to the attack (+2 combat advantage, +2 lance of faith, +2 action point from class feature). If he hits the remainder of the party gets +5 to hit during the remainder of the battle.
One of the parties I reffereed was able to drop Irontooth in two turns using this tactic (he was only able to attack once)
The dwarf should allways start to attack bosses with his daily ASAP, since if he misses, his power isn't used up.
The cleric should allways use lance of faith to help a character getting +2 to get off his daily. All chars except the dwarf should use their action point to attack with their daily, to get the +2 from the warlord.
Also, against kobolds it is absolutely mandatory to maintain a continous line of defence, to deny them combat advantage. Characters should stick together. The wyrmpriests are a danger here (the before mentioned party almost got completely roasted by one), but I would take the risk, because lots of kobold minions double (or triple!) shifting into your back are a real pain if there are skirmishers and dragon shields around.
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
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5 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2008 - 1:42AM
#35
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2006
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My experience as a player is that many of the fights are very, very hard.
Not "Wow, that was awesome that we won!" hard, but "What the heck? These guys are much higher level than we are and have many times more HP. Who the heck designed this adventure? They know we're level 1 right?" kind of hard.
And we also had 6 players in an ostensibly 5-PC adventure module...
If the goal was to prove that low level adventurers have it rough, well, they sure succeeded. Several of us spent combats face down for a long time. Not done yet, so maybe it will get better.
I swear, I wanted to go roam the forest looking for random encounters to level up before having to continue the adventure.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19670890/Keep_on_the_Shadowfell_Character_Errata
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5 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2008 - 9:25AM
#36
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Date Joined:
Dec 14, 2006
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My experience as a player is that many of the fights are very, very hard.
Not "Wow, that was awesome that we won!" hard, but "What the heck? These guys are much higher level than we are and have many times more HP. Who the heck designed this adventure? They know we're level 1 right?" kind of hard.
And we also had 6 players in an ostensibly 5-PC adventure module...
If the goal was to prove that low level adventurers have it rough, well, they sure succeeded. Several of us spent combats face down for a long time. Not done yet, so maybe it will get better.
I swear, I wanted to go roam the forest looking for random encounters to level up before having to continue the adventure.
I totally agree. Very tough encounters...but I guess going into the forest you never know what kind of "friendly" creature you're gonna meet...might be a fatal decision too 
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5 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2008 - 9:33AM
#37
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Date Joined:
Aug 25, 2007
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Well, my group left off the previous saturday at 2 am in the morning having just finished A1 battle.
First order of business was thus treasure from the battle and xp.
The players then asked the halfling to use his trained perception to track the kobolds back to their lair.
Two rolls of 5 by the kobold later and I was in the midst of a skill challenge to see how lost the players would get (it is at times like this it would have been nice to have the 4e MM to throw some sort of 'reward' for stellar navigating by the halfling at the party :D ).
Another roll and the players this time were a bit more on track and I choose to use this moment to have the players come upon a farm that had evidently been attacked.
The players investigated and determined after a few rolls that the place had likely been attacked by kobolds and the people taken. They were unsure as whether this might be for sacrifice to Orcus or for food as the Wizard's attempt at nature roll resulted in him not knowing what a kobold eats.
They also found three chickens and a dog. The dwarf immediately said 'I always wanted a pet dog' and then rolled a 3 for nature to convince the dog that the dwarf was friendly. 8 points of damage later as a result of a vicious bite the dwarf unfortunately decided that he did not like this dog.
Night was coming so the player's camped for the night in the farmhouse. The next day they tried to puzzle their way back to Winterhaven. The dwarf grabbed up the three chickens and stuffed them into a sack and put them on his back for the journey. After this point, whenever the Dwarf was asked on clucking noises and how he came by the chickens he would respond happily, 'They were free range chickens. Field rations.'
The group decided this was euphonism for a wide variety of things that might be acquired including carts, cattle, and houses. They were all 'free range'.
The party got paid by Lord Padrig for the 5 kobold hands they took as bounty in A1.
The priest then found the priestess in the inn and discussed the necklass that he had found with her. He pointed out the symbol on the necklass.
The priestess assured the cleric that there was no one in Winterhaven that would ever be associated with such a foul religion. I put plenty of stress into the wording and the player decided that he would not roll insight but take the priestess at her word on the matter. He also gave her the necklass to keep and properly see it was destroyed.
The group though joked thoughts that they think that they may end up seeing this exact same necklass appear again later in the adventure. Since this conversation took place openly in the inn, I am sure that the necklass will end up in the proper hands.  :D
The players spent the night in Winterhaven and in the morning went out looking again for kobolds. The halfling did much better this time (well the first roll was pretty bad but the second roll was a 20) and I had them find the kobold lair.
I changed the rules slightly with the trees. I charged 2 squares of movement for going through the trees. I said that 2 squares of trees blocked full line of sight and 1 square of trees gave cover that resulted in a -2 to shooting.
If players were beyond the tree line and had not made a perception check of 12 or higher then they could not spot any of the kobolds (15 or higher to spot all kobolds not attempting stealth) and could not use out of player information to fire attacks or charge.
Initially, it was a bit of problem as most of the party but the dwarf on the first round failed to spot anything and the dwarf barely spotted a pair of minions. This gave me time to gather all the minions together at the circle (the players were not attempting stealth and were easily noticed by the kobolds).
The dwarf finally stated breaching the trees north of the circle. Unfortunately, he went alone as the others stayed behind him. He choose to equip himself with a shield (called it a heavy shield) that he had acquired from the previous encounters with the Dragonshields.
The dwarf then took the first of two salvo's of javelin (9 javelins in each salvo) fire while the rest of the party got organized. I played the kobolds according to the stated tactics of them trying to stay with the magic circle that gave a +1 to hit. The dwarf returned fire with a gluepot that he had found on the slinger in the first ambush.
Finally, the party got themselves organized and started to move on the kobolds with the Paladin coming in from the north west side of the circle. The cleric moved up beside the dwarf to help the dwarf fix some javelin wounds and the rogue moved out to the east in the trees hoping to move around back of the kobold group.
The mage was a couple of squares back of the dwarf and still not making a perception check to see much beyond the trees. With the mage alone and all the rest of the party occupied, I revealed that I had snuck the skirmisher from his initial spot into the woods at the north edge of the map and come around behind the back of the party. I then had the kobold charge out at the back of the mage that was still wondering what was going on and ram his spear in the back of the mage.
I rolled a 2 to hit! 
Again, the mage escaped me!
Last ambush I had two dragonshields leap out of hiding and go for the mage and could one of them hit the mage in the surprise round?? Nope. This is one lucky mage but I know his number will be coming up.
The rogue halfling then had to come back and rescue the mage from the skirmisher.
While this was going on the kobold slinger managed to immobilize the dwarf fighter for a round with a gluepot. I also managed to put some damage on the paladin. The cleric spent his daily fixing up mostly the dwarf but also the paladin.
I got to use my last round of javelins on the dwarf from the minions.
Then the battle broke into two big swarms of kobolds. The skirmisher moved away from the rogue halfling and into the back of the dwarf while the minions and the dragon shield moved as many as they could around the dwarf. The rest worked into positions around the paladin.
I bloodied the dwarf some more from these attacks.
The rogue managed to finish off the skirmisher clearing that threat which allowed the mage to move up and cast burning hands. The blast torched several of the minions but it also did 14 points of damage to the Paladin :D who got caught in the blast and it missed the dragonshield.
The loss of the several minions though pretty much ended the battle for the kobolds. I sent the slinger off to warn Irontooth. I did a bit more damage to the dwarf but that was pretty much it.
By the end of the battle, the dwarf fighter had used 4 surges and the paladin had used 2 surges and several of the people had used their encounters and the cleric had used his daily.
I then asked how long they were staying and what they were doing. They told me that they did not want to spend long as they just wanted to cut the hands off and grab any quick loot.
The cleric though had the wizard cast light on his shield (aquired from a dragonshield in a previous encounter) and decided to poke a look into the cave.
It was 12:30 AM so we left it at that point with the cleric having poked his nose beyond the waterfall (though I had not set up anything inside). Just unfolding the map to show that there was a big area beyond the waterfall was dramatic enough.
Further, the group has not even taken a short rest; so, they do not yet have their encounter powers recovered and the cleric is a fair distance from help.
Next saturady looks like it might be interesting. :D
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5 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2008 - 9:39AM
#38
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Date Joined:
Jan 25, 2008
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Last night we got through a few more encounters. The Warlord wasn't there, but the Rogue joined us. Encounters go a lot faster when you have a striker, from what I've seen. It seems to me that the designers of H1 may have gone a little overboard with the minions. Spoiler:
Show
We got to Irontooth's lair in pretty good shape, but the fight in there took all we had, plus two pieces of DM intervention to not kill us all. I think we would have been alright if we'd had five characters. It still would have been a challenge, but we wouldn't have been wiped out.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2008 - 11:27AM
#39
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My group just started the module yesterday. After an hour waiting for the remaining players to show up we started playing with only 2. Each of my players controlled an extra PC. We went through the 2 Kobold ambushes and the Dragon Excavation encounter. I adapted them for 4 PCs, by taking out 100 XP worth of monsters off each encounter. I have to say that the combats are muuch more fun and streamline, easy to manage for everyone especially the DM. They look hard at first, but the key is good tactical decisions and a teamwork mentality. If the party does not use teamwork, they're dead. No one went in the negatives in my game and I think the encounters are fairly balanced, although the Kobold cave one looks really difficult.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 01, 2008 - 4:07PM
#40
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Date Joined:
Mar 17, 2001
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Next saturady looks like it might be interesting. :D
Well actually, they will propably die if they are a group of five.
If you don't use a very coordinated approach and use your daily powers to full potential, ironrooth has a good chance to wipe the floor with a level one party.
I would recomment to bring in the monsters in three waves instead of two.
irontooth and one dragonshield in the second wave.
And then watch what happens. If the players allready take a beating, just skip the second dragonshield and the wyrmpriest. If they are doing well, let the second ds and the wyrmpriest enter as third wave.
Ceterum censeo scrinium puniceum esse delendam
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