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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 9:34AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Feb 29, 2008
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I still think they should have released a preview adventure for free. Hell they had one ready to go for D&D xp. I think its silly to pay 30 bucks for a dead end module with premade characters a week or two before release. If WotC really wanted to pump the hype they would have done this preview for free. This falls very much in the lines of races and monsters crap. That stuff is all advertising for thier product. I have not ever, nor do I intend to start a habit of paying money to be advertised to. WotC failed thier save vs. reality on this one and the 2 "design" books IMO. Bought my 4e books already and ill be playing this summer (Eagerly awaiting it in fact), but let me reiterate: I wont be paying money for promotional material. If WotC wants to advertise to me or promote thier material to me, than they can foot the bill like every other company that wants to show me thier stuff, in hopes of making me a customer. This and the dsign releases are whats referred to as a trash release. They have no real value once the core books are released. Its all good though, suppose they gotta make thier bread monies somewhere.
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 10:45AM
#12
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Why is the adventure a "dead end" to you, malkav666? It's the first in a series and can be played with characters other than the pregens if you wait a few weeks. It's no more of a "trash release" than any other module.
Ed_Warlord, on what it takes to make a thread work: I think for it to be really constructive, everyone would have to be honest with each other, and with themselves. Quotation of the moment
Show
Areleth: How does this help the problems we have with Fighters? Do you think that every time I thought I was playing D&D what I was actually doing was slamming my head in a car door and that if you just explain how to play without doing that then I'll finally enjoy the game?
Quotation of ALL moments
Show
TD: That's why they put me on the front of every book. This is the dungeon, and I am the dragon.
A word of warning though: I'm totally not a level appropriate encounter.
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 10:58AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jun 25, 2001
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I still think they should have released a preview adventure for free. Hell they had one ready to go for D&D xp. I think its silly to pay 30 bucks for a dead end module with premade characters a week or two before release. If WotC really wanted to pump the hype they would have done this preview for free. This falls very much in the lines of races and monsters crap. That stuff is all advertising for thier product. I have not ever, nor do I intend to start a habit of paying money to be advertised to.
Yeah honestly, they should have just released keep on the Shadowfell as a web Enhancement or something that people can download to try to advertise the game.
WotC is the only company that makes you pay to read advertisements for their game.
Most companies would just be satisfied to advertise their product and get the word out, but apparently not WotC.
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 2:29PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2005
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My only complaint is that we went from softback folio dungeons costing 20 to 30 in one step, and I've not heard a good reason why the price increase. I'm really not comfortable paying 30 for what others are making for 15 or less, even if it is an offical product.
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 2:30PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Aug 28, 2006
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I still think they should have released a preview adventure for free. Hell they had one ready to go for D&D xp. I think its silly to pay 30 bucks for a dead end module with premade characters a week or two before release. If WotC really wanted to pump the hype they would have done this preview for free. This falls very much in the lines of races and monsters crap. That stuff is all advertising for thier product. I have not ever, nor do I intend to start a habit of paying money to be advertised to. WotC failed thier save vs. reality on this one and the 2 "design" books IMO. Bought my 4e books already and ill be playing this summer (Eagerly awaiting it in fact), but let me reiterate: I wont be paying money for promotional material. If WotC wants to advertise to me or promote thier material to me, than they can foot the bill like every other company that wants to show me thier stuff, in hopes of making me a customer. This and the dsign releases are whats referred to as a trash release. They have no real value once the core books are released. Its all good though, suppose they gotta make thier bread monies somewhere.
See, I actually found the two preview books to have great value - as discussions of game design philosophy from some of the best designers in the industry. Mike Mearls and Rich Baker wrote some exceptionally good stuff in it, and it's stuff that's helped me with my own design work - both for 4e and for the system that I've been tinkering away at.
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 2:48PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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I'd be really interested to hear if someone plays through it without using the play aids, battle mats etc, and how it went.
My group and i played through the up to the first level of the Dungeon...and I'm Impressed with game thus far....I was playing the Dwarf Fighter and I enjoyed cracking skulls with a maul and not mention Brute Strike was a beast especially since I rolled a crit when I used that power...
The mats made things easier for placement of encounters , and the layouts were great...but hat was only our first night playing it so I can't wait for next week so we can do further and i get to take great pleasure in beating the crap out things...
but I have on compliant....I want the Core Books now!!! this adventure great but I would love to read more the mechanics of the game, and to see what bonuses are given...
But I get the sense from this adventure that this is just a taste and I like it....
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 2:56PM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 26, 2007
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I've run the first half of it twice already and I enjoy it. It gives you bare bones information about whats going on, which is enough to start the GM off on things. I have one HUGE complaint here for the Module, and that's when you get into Winterhaven there's two shoppes to buy from. I can't let my players buy from them at all because you need, a PHB..  I would have liked at least a small list of equipment/magic items to be able to sell my players. I can totally sell them the idea that Winterhaven doesnt have a lot of things to buy, but NOTHING? And all this gold they're grabbing doesn't mean a whole lot if they can't spend it on anything. So for three whole levels they have to rely on Encounters for items. Kinda crap if you ask me. The rest of the module is great, has a fun layout and the Encounters are _Very_ hard if you're running anything less than four people without a cleric. A five person group doesn't even remotely put the game on easy mode.
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 3:04PM
#18
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Date Joined:
Oct 30, 2005
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Yeah honestly, they should have just released keep on the Shadowfell as a web Enhancement or something that people can download to try to advertise the game.
WotC is the only company that makes you pay to read advertisements for their game.
Most companies would just be satisfied to advertise their product and get the word out, but apparently not WotC.
For starters, WotC would hardly be "the only company" to sell people products that do advertising this way. Every time you put on your Nike's, or your Tommy Hillfiger shirt, or drive your car with the dealership tag on the back, you are paying for a product that the company uses as advertising.
But, even so, H1 was not designed as an "advertisement". It is a stand alone product that is of exceptional quality. It isn't a "preview", although it does release before the PHB, it is an adventure. Sunless Citadel wasn't an advertisement, and neither is H1. And, to top it all off, the OP is talking about the store copy of H1 that he looked at, and the story copy was FREE. They didn't charge the store to have a copy to show to customers, it was FREE. This argument is ridiculous.
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5 years ago ::
May 12, 2008 - 4:49PM
#19
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Date Joined:
Apr 12, 2008
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And, to top it all off, the OP is talking about the store copy of H1 that he looked at, and the store copy was FREE. They didn't charge the store to have a copy to show to customers, it was FREE. This argument is ridiculous.
Just another shining example of people willing to argue simply for the sake of arguing. Their points are invalid, their accusations are irresponsible, and their tone is one of pure antagonism. Better off, Falcon, to just leave them be. Let them rant to an absent audience, and eventually they will stop.
In fond memory of Mark "Wrecan" Monack.
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5 years ago ::
May 13, 2008 - 5:56AM
#20
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Date Joined:
Feb 29, 2008
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Ok ill respond once here,but before I start, let me just say, I wasn,t trying to ruffle any feathers. I am not anti 4e. I have already bought my books  There are many things I dsilike about the marketing of 4e, and how they went about DDI. I think those two arenas of the project could have been handled much better than what we are currently experiencing. @emwasick I consider the keep module to be a trash release because It is a pregen preview mod. You cant make characters for it, and then when the PHB comes out your stuck with the pregens unless you want to break the story (which is entirely feasable mind you, just not very much fun IMO). My ire with this release is they haven't given us any preview materials. When D&D 3.0 came out, my local FLGS had pamphlets explaining the rules changes, and promoting the product, and the general flow of promotional information was just all around better. I had a good idea of how many things worked and I was excited. There has been no promotion whatsoever of 4e. The preview module was kept lock and key. And they try to sell this HARDBACK book at core book prices with preivew characters in it and lots of rules that are gonna be released IN FULL just a few weeks later. Thats trash. Maybe not so much the module itself. But everything else in the book you will pay for a second time. There was absolutely no need to have a hardback preview release two weeks befor the $120 core release. I think they should have released the preview material from D&D xp for free, so folks who were interested could play and check the system out, then released the core books, and THEN released Keep on shadowfell as a folder softback stand alone at $15-20 bucks, depending on the size of the module itself. I dont want to buy a hardback full of preview content. That is trash. As customers we should have material previewed to us for free. That is afterall the reason you have a preview in the first place: to show your product to your potential customer base, in the hopes that they will like it and choose to invest in it. Its not so much that I am trashing the idea of a module. its just that WOTC really hasnt previewed the product or promoted it in any way that has affected me as a customer. design books and preview books that have source price tags are garbage. I do not like them. I do not like them in a Box, or with a Fox. @Trailfoot I'd just lijke to clarify that the material int he books may not be neccessarily bad. But it is promotional material. We used to get all kinds of neat design articles for free on WotCs website. But we are expected to pay SOURCE prices for very tiny books. At 96 pages each (thats smaller than some issues of dungeon and dragon magazine) and a $20 dollar price tag, you get a bunch of advertisements and design philosphies that would have made GREAT promotional articles for their website, but make a very garbage print release. What use do they serve? I like the Mearls' and Bakers' work. When they post an article on WotCs website I read them. But asking me to pay 20 bucks a pop to get those articles, especially when they are of a promotional nature, for a product they are expecting me to sink hundreds if not thousands of dollars into, is irresponsible and rude. Our group almost decided to skip 4e, not because of any rules or design issues. We define the "feel" and "flavor" of D&D, so all those anti issues mean very little to us. No we almost skipped because of the the way WotC marketing is being handled. Promotional and Advertising content IS NOT source content. WotC is trying to sell it as source,and at source prices, and that is a very very poor marketing model IMO. A promo release sold at 20 bucks a pop is trash, no matter how good the articles may be. But those ar ejust my thoughts. Maybe im just not the target audience for such products, as many of you seem to be excited about them. there is always that chance
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