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Electricbee wrote:

Another thing to be careful about is choke and pinch points. 4th is built to allow for moving dynamic combat. if 2 defenders wall off a 10 hallway that is the only way into an encounter area, the combat that results isn't very dynamic, , just a series of step up and dies. Plan for way around and alternate paths to keep combat moving.

most smart creatures will have been planning for that type event from the start. for instance hobgoblins, will anticipate such an attack and will respond accordingly. even the dumber creatures like orcs and goblins, take to bullrushes to break through the meat wall(orcs) or ranged attacks(goblins). not to mention what happens when the NPC's make a meat wall to in the hallway themselves and start moving forward.

personally, i don't see how anything in the game changed except that characters(npc's and PC's) have more specific abilities and a less generic swings. aside from learning a new rule set the only thing i plan to change in my game for 4E is that i'll be a slightly more descriptive at times.

ray8888888 wrote:

In an early adventure we had, every room was 30' x 30'. Doesn't matter what was in it, 30' x 30'.

10 goblins 30' x 30'
5 bugbears 30' x 30'
a troll 30' x 30'
Brontosaurus 30' x 30'

I pole vault over the Brontosaurus, whats on the other side?

another Brontosaurus.

rofl. so naturally you ate brontosaurus sandwiches till you were sick. :D

JayM wrote:

To a certain extend it bothers me also. I don't like doing things for purely metagame reasons. On the other hand I have never seen a D&D map that wasn't highly metagame. Making the world conform to a 5ft grid already distorts things heavily. Tables, chairs, windows, everything is moved around and sized so they fit the gird. In the real world buildings often did not follow straight lines and where not rectangular. It actually bothers me at times, but in the end it's more important that the game play smoothly then there be an accurate 7ft by 8ft table. So instead there are a lot of 5ft by 10ft tables.

More importantly, 4e does not focus a little bit more on movement. The entire game system has been rewritten from the ground up to have a much more of a miniature board game at it's core. Movement, tactical options and your powers that block others tactical options are now major core elements of the game. The typical 3e map (both what I make and find in 3e books and adventures) are a bit too narrow and small to let those parts play out.

Jay

i can see your point, and in a way i agree. but i have to admit i see a bit of a difference between using rough estimates to smooth out game flow(though i will admit to using preformed pipe cleaners at times to simulate objects i don't want to fit neatly into a 5x5 format) and re-designing encounters and areas to allow combat to operate fundamentally different. i guess when i think about it i think "when the orcs got this table they didn't put any real thought behind how big it was, as long as it was big enough." vs. "this dungeon was built for X purpose and is structured the way it because someone focused on their purpose." or possibly "this cave was selected for a reasons and has been dressed up for the reasons the dwellers have"

to think about it another way, look at what sort of combat is occuring in most dungeons/keeps. the PC's are generally speaking invading or attacking while the NPC's are playing defense and/or ambush. now given that your thinking from the mindset of either holding out or striking in surprise why wouldn't you put in place choke points, tunnels to double back, temporary walls to use for cover, etc through out your dungeon/keep? i mean yes it means that the players are not going to be able to use certain abilities/tactics, but isn't that the general norm when battling on your enemies terf? on the other hand not every creature/monster/NPC is going to be very tactical about things, in which case when they build it will simply be a "minimal amount of work needed to get the pace done well enough" mentality. and i just don't see a bunch of quasi-lazy bums widening a tunnel to allow for better fights. especually since most types that build this way don't plan on fighting in there home as much as they outside in the open.

one more point. it was mentioned that one concern is that the defender could form a meat wall and make all fights easy as pie. my response to that is:
a-ok, good for the players. this dungeon tactic is certianly not new since fighters have been walking out front since 2e or earlier.
b-it's not like the NPC's are always so dumb to allow such a thing to happen.
c-it's not like the NPC's are always so dense that they can't come up with a reasonable method of dealing with it. especially since in all likelihood the NPC's will have either seen or used the same tactics before(tank and spank isn't that original).