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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 2:56PM
#1
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THE STORY SO FAR:H1: Keep on the Shadowfell: 17 males to 4 females ( link) H2: Thunderspire Labyrinth: 42 males to 7 females H3: Pyramid of Shadows: 13 males to 6 females ( link) P1: King of the Trollhaunt Warrens: 12 males to 9 females ( link) P2: Demon Queen's Enclave: 19 males to 7 females ( link) P2: Assault on Nightwyrm Fortress: 17 males to 4 females ( link) Scales of War: Rescue at Rivenroar: 8 males to 3 females ( link) Spawned by Solik's post in this thread, I decided to look through the NPCs in a recent WotC 4E supplement: Thunderspire Labyrinth. One of my suggestions to broaden appeal in D&D is to feature more prominent (and nondescript) female NPCs. Let's see what we have to work with, shall we? NOTE: The following will likely contain spoilers. At ToastedAmphibian's brilliant suggestion, I have sblocked the actual lists and names. Don't open them if you don't want to see the spoiled bits. :D NOTE: I only counted when there was a specific gender assigned or pronoun used for the NPC. If there was no mention of gender (as is the case with multiple "duergar" or random encounters), I left those entries out. NOTE: A count of NPCs in H1: Keep on the Shadowfell can be found in this post. Thunderspire Labyrinth:Book 1
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Pre-game - Getting Quests:
There are several "main" and "secondary" quests that the party can follow in the module. Here are the NPCs from whom the party gains the quests:
Hook: Investigate the Bloodreavers Primary - Lord Padraig - Male Alternate - Party initiative (no NPC)
Hook: Slave Rescue Primary - Sister Linora - Female Alternate - Baron Stockmer - Male
Hook: Trade Mission Primary - Bairwin Wildarson - Male Alternate - None
Hook: A Call to Adventure Primary: Valthrun the Prescient - Male Alternate: Any (GM's choice)
Adventure
A1-1: Into the Mountain Hobgoblin warcaster - male Rendil Halfmoon - male
Seven-Pillared Hall
By location:
Customhouse: Brugg - male Hook: Favor for the Mages Primary - Orontor - male
Deepgem Company: Ulthand Deepgem - male (also primary for Hook: Find the Boar)
Bersk the Wainwright: Bersk Hollon - male
Temple of Hidden Light (temple to Erathis): Phaledra - female
House Azaer: Noristo Azaer - male
The Halfmoon Inn: Erra Halfmoon - female
Gendar's Curios and Relics: Gendar - male (also primary for Hook: Treasure Seeker)
Dreskin the Provisioner: Dreskin - male
Rothar's Taproom: Rothar - male
Grimmerzhul Trading Post: Kedhira - female
Misc NPCs:
Charrak - male Harwin - male Ordinator Arcanis - any of the mages, but "his name" is used (may be use of neutral he - please don't turn this into a debate about that!!) Bennik the Wanderer - male Surina - female Terrlen Darkseeker - male Vadriar the Sage - male
Into the Labyrinth
Random encounters:
The Treasure Seeker: Az'Al'Bani - male
The Would-Be King: Thain Cardanas - male
The Dark Cultists: Martaros - male
Troglodyte Crusaders: Curse chanter - male
Gnoll Marauders: Modreg - male
A note about deurgar: they describe them as having beard-quills. Since the current edition of D&D has dwarven women without beards, and Deurgar are "distant kin to dwarves", I don't know if all of the deurgar would have beards or not. If not, then all of the generic deurgar presented in the module would be male.
And that's it for book 1.
So far: Males - 24 Females - 5
Benevolent God of Death "Dynamite with a laser beam."
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 2:59PM
#2
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On to BOOK 2!! :D Book 2
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The Chamber of Eyes
Bugbear warrior - male
Grimmerzhul Trading Post
Deurgar x2 - male (uses "he" to describe actions if captured)
The Horned Hold
Urwol - male Rundarr - male Deurgar theurge - male Ogre savage - male Framarth - male Murkelmor - male Deurgar theurge - female
The Well of Demons
Gnoll Huntmaster - male
Azkelak - male (tiefling brothers) Katal - male (tiefling brothers) Gnoll demonic scourge - female
Valdrog the Brute - male Sir Terris - male Mendra the Mystic - female
Maldrick Scarmaker - male
The Tower of Mysteries
Spectral Manifestation of Vecna - male Paldemar - male
Totals for Book 2: Male - 18 Female - 2 Totals: Male - 24 + 18 = 42 Female - 5 + 2 = 7 So, six times as many male NPCs as female NPCs. Even if we shave away some of the more generic males (though I don't think that's a good idea, because it illustrates "male" as being the default in the game), the males still outnumber the females by a wide margin. While I'm not usually one to go through and count, I just wanted to illustrate the disparity. It's not an insignificant difference.
Benevolent God of Death "Dynamite with a laser beam."
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 4:21PM
#3
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Perhapes you might want to *Spoiler block your spoilers and just post the resulting tallies outside of the spoiler block. That way people can discuss the results without risking spoiling the adventure and people who are not worried about spoiling their adventure can see where the information is coming from with only a little more hassle.
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 4:26PM
#4
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So, would the fix be WotC implementing a quota system, or have women create, or be involved in the creation of, pregenerated adventures so that there is more of a default towards female characters than male?
Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence[linky] to where I got the necromancer avatar that I was using. I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 4:41PM
#5
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Perhapes you might want to *Spoiler block your spoilers and just post the resulting tallies outside of the spoiler block. That way people can discuss the results without risking spoiling the adventure and people who are not worried about spoiling their adventure can see where the information is coming from with only a little more hassle. Thanks for the suggestion! I've edited the posts accordingly. 
So, would the fix be WotC implementing a quota system, or have women create, or be involved in the creation of, pregenerated adventures so that there is more of a default towards female characters than male? While I'm usually not a fan of "quota" systems, I think it could be of some use here. It's not that I want everything to be distributed exactly down the middle along gender lines, but six times as many men as women is something that can leave, on a subconscious level, the impression of a significantly male-dominated world. And I think that detracts from the game.
I don't necessarily think that having more women involved would "fix" the problem - I think becoming aware of it is more important. I mean, I don't think the team consciously decided to have so many more male NPCs. I think it just happened because that's the tradition - "We need a ruler!" "Lord" (rather than Lady); "We need a sage!" "Old dude with a beard!"; "We need a merchant" "Big fat dude!"; "We need a thug!" "Big brawny dude!". There are specific instances where the gender caught me off-guard - one of the Deurgar theurges, and the gnoll demon scourge, for instance. I think that shows at least some thought to the gender of the NPCs.
Benevolent God of Death "Dynamite with a laser beam."
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 4:44PM
#6
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How many books does the TL, not to be confused with the TA, have?
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 4:47PM
#7
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How many books does the TL, not to be confused with the TA, have? Only two. The first is the beginning and the "fluff" of the adventure; the second is all "crunch".
Benevolent God of Death "Dynamite with a laser beam."
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 4:55PM
#8
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Thanks for the suggestion! I've edited the posts accordingly. 
While I'm usually not a fan of "quota" systems, I think it could be of some use here. It's not that I want everything to be distributed exactly down the middle along gender lines, but six times as many men as women is something that can leave, on a subconscious level, the impression of a significantly male-dominated world. And I think that detracts from the game.
I don't necessarily think that having more women involved would "fix" the problem - I think becoming aware of it is more important. I mean, I don't think the team consciously decided to have so many more male NPCs. I think it just happened because that's the tradition - "We need a ruler!" "Lord" (rather than Lady); "We need a sage!" "Old dude with a beard!"; "We need a merchant" "Big fat dude!"; "We need a thug!" "Big brawny dude!". There are specific instances where the gender caught me off-guard - one of the Deurgar theurges, and the gnoll demon scourge, for instance. I think that shows at least some thought to the gender of the NPCs. I think, but am not sure, that if more women were involved with writing the adventures that they would subconsciously make more female characters. When I make my own adventures I sometimes make characters men by default because I don't want portray a female badly. I can play and imitate many different type of men but when it comes to women i become quite unsure and default to male for character (yes I know quite often women don't act much different than men and yes this a habit I am trying to break myself of). So what I am trying to say is that the high number of male characters may be do to men writing the adventures. If a few adventures were written by women then there may be more women npcs written into it. For the 4 4E adventures written so far they have each have had 2 authors and in each case the authors have been male. Making one author female may help make the number of npcs that are male and female be more even.
Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence[linky] to where I got the necromancer avatar that I was using. I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 5:11PM
#9
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I think, but am not sure, that if more women were involved with writing the adventures that they would subconsciously make more female characters. When I make my own adventures I sometimes make characters men by default because I don't want portray a female badly. I can play and imitate many different type of men but when it comes to women i become quite unsure and default to male for character (yes I know quite often women don't act much different than men and yes this a habit I am trying to break myself of). So what I am trying to say is that the high number of male characters may be do to men writing the adventures. If a few adventures were written by women then there may be more women npcs written into it. For the 4 4E adventures written so far they have each have had 2 authors and in each case the authors have been male. Making one author female may help make the number of npcs that are male and female be more even. ToastedAmphibian disagrees as to the cause of the bolded part. ToastedAmphibian doesn't think you are affraid to portray women badly because you are male so much as because there is a larger amount of stigma associated with negative portrals of "minorites" than there is with negative portrayls of the "majority". In the particular case of women you also have the momentum of Chivalry(TM) and Gentlemanly Behavior(TM) added to the more contemparary press of Political Correctness(TM)
For instance, poor portrals of females or minorites in a body of art is likley to have a larger effect than poor portrals of males.
ToastedAmphibian imagines this is also a portion of the reason why the vast majority of nameless "Mooks to be Slain" (MtbS) are adult males as opposed to women or children.
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1 year ago ::
Nov 18, 2008 - 5:34PM
#10
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ToastedAmphibian disagrees as to the cause of the bolded part. ToastedAmphibian doesn't think you are affraid to portray women badly because you are male so much as because there is a larger amount of stigma associated with negative portrals of "minorites" than there is with negative portrayls of the "majority". In the particular case of women you also have the momentum of Chivalry(TM) and Gentlemanly Behavior(TM) added to the more contemparary press of Political Correctness(TM)
For instance, poor portrals of females or minorites in a body of art is likley to have a larger effect than poor portrals of males.
ToastedAmphibian imagines this is also a portion of the reason why the vast majority of nameless "Mooks to be Slain" (MtbS) are adult males as opposed to women or children. This is basically exactly what I meant and yes it is because I am male and that I am trying to portray females. In western culture women are seen as a minority and as less empowered as men. I well tend to make characters that are much more closer to my demographic so as not to portray those that I don't understand badly. So I could say that I tend to not make female NPCs because I am a man and thus more comfortable with portraying men.
I am sure that there are quite a few men that are this way. It seems like all of the major authors for the books and adventurers seem to male so it would make sense that if they behave similar to me, either conscious of it or not, then it would make sense to why there is six times the amount of men NPCs than there is female NPCs. I would suggest having some women help write the books, either as a major or minor author, for it should help with the number of female NPCs through out the adventure.
Resident Grouch and Corrupting Influence[linky] to where I got the necromancer avatar that I was using. I'm Black and Blue how 'bout you?
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