Community

 
Jump Menu:
Post Reply
Page 1 of 35  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 35 Next
Switch to Forum Live View Character's War Crimes
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 6:36PM #1
PerennialRook
Date Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,099
Here's the full situation:

The players are tracking a small pack of gnolls (one of each in the MM plus two hyena and a cacklefiend) that have left a long trail of bloodshed, and may have captured one of the players. This is lead by the elven ranger (whose passive perception is ungodly high), who finds each kill zone to be a bit fresher. After a full day of tracking, the elf hears the sounds of combat over the next hill.

When they crest the hill, they find the gnolls and hyenas decimating a small band of helpless travelers. Off to one side of the battle, two children are hiding in the tall grass, and on the near side, the limp body of the party's compatriot has been discarded for the duration of the battle. These two pieces of information are quickly passed on by the elf to the rest of the party.

The group charges into battle, the elf staying at the crest of the hill with his bow, the paladin rushes to the unconscious PC, and the rest of the party rushes into combat (just as the gnolls finish off their prey).

The battle rages, blood flies, tempers flare. And, in the midst of it, the player who had been captured heals the first fallen gnoll and agrees to follow him, if he will spare the party (as she has seen before that the huntmaster controls the flow of battle).

He whistles to break contact as he and the bargaining player escape. Before the rest of the gnolls can react, one of them is dropped (the marauder). On their initiative, the claw fighter manages to flee at full speed (faster than even the elven ranger), leaving only the scourge, a hyena, and the cacklefiend.

The scourge shifts away and begins to walk away from combat, the two hyenas on his heels. They are well withing closing distance of the party, so the clever scourge decides to play on the "good" nature of the party (including a paladin of Pelor and a dwarven cleric of Thane [read: Moradin]).

As the first player advances to attack, he turns and delivers a quick ultimatum. Should they even touch him, he swears that the children will be slain before he dies.

The children have been ignored up to this point, though clearly marked on the battlefield.

The player, an unaligned dragonborn warlord, attacks one of the (very) bloodied hyenas, and drops it with the swing. The paladin rushes to the children, barely making it with a run, though has already blown his interposing daily ability, so is less of an obstacle than he would like to be.

The scourge then drops his weapon, gestures to the cacklefiend to fulfill te ultimatum, and raises his hands in surrender, readying an action to shift away, should anyone make an attack. The scourge, with its prolific speed, is able to bound around the paladin and charge in for the kill (the children were a low level "minion swarm"), slaughtering the both of them.

Now, with the scourge presenting no threat, the cleric (of a lawful good deity) charges in to kill the surrendered gnoll, when the gnoll shifts away the dwarf even spends an action point to press the attack, and is able to kill the gnoll (who's hp were in the single digits at this point).

I contest that the act, while perhaps justified, flies in the face of Thane, and as a consequence the cleric will not have his prayers answered for a short time (temporary losing his powers).

I made sure to stop the player, clarify the point that the gnoll had surrendered, asking the basic "are you sure?" question, so he performed the act knowingly.

This was the end of the session for the night, and has sparked some controversy in the group. So I am here to seek some opinions on the matter.

I specifically do not want to hear about whether it is legal to strip a divine character of powers if he violates the tenants of his religion.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 6:48PM #2
PerennialRook
Date Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,099
Further Background:

Thane is the original paladin in my world's history (yes, I run a homebrew setting). He was a (short and stocky) human and a champion of law and good in the world.

When he was slain by Gobli, his blood seeped into the stone, and by the power of creation, his blood infused with the rock and begot the first eight dwarves, Thane (II) and his seven brothers. Thane crafted a woman from marble, placing gems in her eyes, and prayed to Thane (a guiding spirit to the eight brothers) to make her come to life.

Thane (II) had seven daughters, each wed to his seven brothers, and became the patriarch of dwarves, and the first Thane (king of dwarves). He then had a son, also Thane (III), who was the first heir to the throne, and his bloodline goes unbroken (though it had been lost for a few ages, it was since restored).

Thane was first and foremost a paladin, so while he may understand the actions of his cleric, there must be consequences (not punshments).
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:01PM #3
dman5000
Date Joined: Aug 29, 2008
Posts: 187
I think you handled it well.

I would also argue from a morality point that innocents whose lives hang in the balance should always be the number one priority of such a Cleric or a Paladin. I like that your focus is on the tenants of their religious belief rather than the good vs. evil argument.

Save the children, then live to pursue the badguys another day.

Furthermore, if I was adjudicating this campaign, I would think some penance and redemption is in order for the return of the divine powers. It doesn't make it the end of the world for the character, but adds story and character depth.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:07PM #4
PerennialRook
Date Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,099
Unfortunatly, it was the unaligned dragonborn warlord who decided the fate of the two children. The paladin did what he could, and the cleric never had a chance to prevent it.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:12PM #5
PerennialRook
Date Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,099
To quote the player of the cleric's email to the group:

...I also proffered the opinion about the gnoll not really surrendering and ordering his soldier to kill as gnoll treachery and not true retreat. Consider this: If a swat team enters a building and victims are killed by hostage takers after not heeding the criminals' threats to stay away, do you imprison or fire the swat team? Are they to blame for the deaths? No the hostage takers are. If a hostage taker is killed in the process of surrendering, do we shed a tear? No, they could have been doing any number of things that day instead. Gnolls will never be picking flowers or painting a house, and I think most gods and orders would know that.

If it had been a creature that could reasonably had a change of heart, deadly force would be extreme. But surrendering gnolls? Would a gnoll surrender? And to save its own life? They are agents of chaos, what is death to them?


To which I added, "to kill on the merit of racial prejudice is evil," and...

If the swat team has the situation under control (i.e. the sole surviving hostage taker has dropped his weapon and surrendered) and one person on the team fires a few rounds into his chest, you can be assured that there will be an investigation, accompanied by a cooling off period.


Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:18PM #6
PerennialRook
Date Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,099
To respond to the bit about surrendering gnolls, which some might point out is written in the MM as something they typically would not do: The scourge is the only gnoll with an intelligence of 13 (+5 skill modifier), while the "typical" gnoll has an intelligence of 9.
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:24PM #7
Hippokrene
Date Joined: Apr 19, 2006
Posts: 1,632

PerennialRook wrote:

Unfortunatly, it was the unaligned dragonborn warlord who decided the fate of the two children. The paladin did what he could, and the cleric never had a chance to prevent it.


Would you allow the cleric and paladin to kick the warlord from the group?

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:24PM #8
iserith
Date Joined: Jun 1, 2005
Posts: 5,183
D&D combat becomes very hard to justify on many, many occasions if you attempt to inject modern concepts of morality into the game. "Racial prejudice" wasn't "racial prejudice" when seen through the eyes of people hundreds of years ago. It was "us" versus "them" and that's just the way it was. When you look at it through modern eyes, it's "racism" and therefore "bad."

If you want to avoid pointless, game-threatening arguments, you have a couple of choices:

1. Bad guys are bad guys and good guys are good guys. It's okay for good guys to kill bad guys just like it's okay for bad guys to kill good guys, regardless of circumstances. Don't make it more complicated. It's way too subjective and leads to very unfun arguments; or,

2. Allow clerics, paladins, or whoever else might suffer mechanically from subjective choices to expend a minor action to make a Religion check (or the like) of moderate DC to determine if a particular action might be frowned upon by his or her deity (read: the DM). Then the choice is clear: Do it and suffer the consequences. After all, it's subjective and the players can't read your mind.
No amount of tips, tricks, or gimmicks will ever be better than simply talking directly to your fellow players to resolve your issues.
Reduce DM Prep & Increase Player Engagement: Don't Prep the Plot  |  Structure First, Story Last  |  Collaborative Roleplay  |  "Yes, and..."  |  Prep Tips
Games I'm Running on Roll20: Island of the Frog  |  Vanguard of Dis  |  Star*Juice  |  Tesseract  |  The Crucible  |  Fimbulvetr  |  The Delve  |  Draj, City of the Moon
Follow me on Twitter: @is3rith
Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:37PM #9
PerennialRook
Date Joined: May 18, 2004
Posts: 1,099

Hippokrene wrote:

Would you allow the cleric and paladin to kick the warlord from the group?


They haven't kicked the city-destroying tiefling warlock demon-worshiper from the group, so this isn't very likely. Though, yes, in-character consequences inflicted by other players' characters is well within their right. Though I would think that they would come to some sort of agreement before that happened, and I don't think that they lay the blame on the warlord, but rather the gnoll itself.

Quick Reply
Cancel
5 years ago  ::  Sep 08, 2008 - 7:40PM #10
dman5000
Date Joined: Aug 29, 2008
Posts: 187

PerennialRook wrote:

Unfortunatly, it was the unaligned dragonborn warlord who decided the fate of the two children. The paladin did what he could, and the cleric never had a chance to prevent it.


The first moral error of the encounter was to not ensure the safety of the innocents once the group crested the hill. To use the police analogy, securing the scene is a top priority and getting innocents who are at risk to safety is often done with risk to the officer's own lives. This is where I think both the Paladin and the Cleric failed.

I don't see this as a pointless argument. And although the good guys are good guys and bad guys are bad guys, so lets justify all killing may work for some games. It doesn't work for my group.

And I will say again, just because a character is being reprimanded by their diety, it is not the end of the world, a reason to quit the game, or throw a temper tantrum. It is another opportunity for role playing, and great character development. These are the elements that make great stories, rather than simply glossing over the slaughter of innocents and moving on.

Quick Reply
Cancel
Page 1 of 35  •  1 2 3 4 5 6 ... 35 Next
Jump Menu:
 
    Viewing this thread :: 0 registered and 1 guest
    No registered users viewing