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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:30PM
#341
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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On the other hand, Character A will take Opportunity Attacks if he passes close to any foes along the way. Character B gets the advantages of being hidden until he ends his move, so he's not exactly out of pocket.
And if he wants to move and re-hide, he simply needs to break stealth before moving. Character B could choose to draw his potion, drink his potion, exclaim "Ahh, now that's a tasty beverage!" as a free action (ending his hidden status), then move across open ground to superior cover behind the wall and re-hide.
Sure he'll provoke OA's but as soon as the round is over the enemy will round the corner and find character B but not character A. (this example assumes concealment is available behind said wall.)
Unless he shouts before running behind the wall.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:34PM
#342
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- Here be Dragons next 100 km
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Sure he'll provoke OA's but as soon as the round is over the enemy will round the corner and find character B but not character A. (this example assumes concealment is available behind said wall.)
Unless he shouts before running behind the wall.
So, when moving across open ground, he can choose to either retain the benefits of being hidden during his move, or gain them afterwards, but not both. Sounds fair - and provides a perfect example of why Shadow Stride is still valuable under the current rules.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:41PM
#343
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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So, when moving across open ground, he can choose to either retain the benefits of being hidden during his move, or gain them afterwards, but not both. Sounds fair - and provides a perfect example of why Shadow Stride is still valuable under the current rules.
What I have a problem with is that if he chooses to remain hidden over open ground they magically know he's behind the wall.
But if he chooses to make them aware of him then he can now magically hide instead.
This is a bad rule.
Yes Shadow Stride is still viable but it wasn't ever a problem.
The scenario of moving over open ground was well covered by it but has now become a very odd set of if/then situations that were not a problem before.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:44PM
#344
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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On the other hand, Character A will take Opportunity Attacks if he passes close to any foes along the way. Character B gets the advantages of being hidden until he ends his move, so he's not exactly out of pocket.
Well put. It's unfortunate that the benefits of Stealth are not made explicit in the Stealth rules block, but the above is a good example of something we shouldn't forget. If Stealth was a power everyone would get on with looking at the cost and effect, notice how valuable Stealth is and be happy to see it was At-Will (with requirements). Nothing about Stealth puts you out of pocket.
And if he wants to move and re-hide, he simply needs to break stealth before moving. Character B could choose to draw his potion, drink his potion, exclaim "Ahh, now that's a tasty beverage!" as a free action (ending his hidden status), then move across open ground to superior cover behind the wall and re-hide.
Tasty. I hadn't thought of that trick. TBH the way Stealth invevitably has to work in a turn-based PnP game is that it turns on at some point and turns off at another point. WotC should simply cost it as a minor action and let it be. Were Stealth a power, an At-Will minor action would feel cheap for what it does.
It would then be possible to let it happen in C/C because there would be a cost. It's worth considering other costs like -1 speed while hidden, but walking through tar is never much fun in games so perhaps the penalty on the check is better.
Like everyone else I have the intuition that you can dart into cover and hide. That's what Move+Minor would represent. Valdark and others are hitting heads against the counter-intuitive end-of-move-except-where-the-move-breaks-hiding.
EDIT Valdark, I want to respectfully add that you might want to do a comprehensive read of the old threads on Stealth before suggesting that one paragraph could have fixed them. The problems with DDI Stealth are far milder. If you've done such reading, I for one would love to see that paragraph!
-vk
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:47PM
#345
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2003
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What I have a problem with is that if he chooses to remain hidden over open ground they magically know he's behind the wall.
Why is that magical? They saw you run behind the wall, they just weren't able to react in time, heance you "retained the benefits of being hidden" until the end of the move action.
And the creatures will know where you're hiding either way. Its just a question of whether the rules consider you "hidden" at that moment or not.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:52PM
#346
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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Why is that magical? They saw you run behind the wall, they just weren't able to react in time, heance you "retained the benefits of being hidden" until the end of the move action.
And the creatures will know where you're hiding either way. Its just a question of whether the rules consider you "hidden" at that moment or not.
What I meant was "They know where he is behind the wall."
When you round the wall.
My buddy who you also saw run behind the wall can't be found.
See the problem?
I was hidden and moved to another hiding space = no longer hidden
My buddy was in the open and moved to the same hiding space = hidden
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:59PM
#347
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Date Joined:
Nov 22, 2007
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EDIT Valdark, I want to respectfully add that you might want to do a comprehensive read of the old threads on Stealth before suggesting that one paragraph could have fixed them. The problems with DDI Stealth are far milder. If you've done such reading, I for one would love to see that paragraph!
-vk
The problem I saw most discussed with the old stealth was the issue of hiding behind allies.
That is a problem write it out.
The next was being too hard to find PC's with monsters.
Give negatives for standard cover and use total as the standard roll.
If you have other specific problems with the current stealth rule (ddi is not in effect until errata) then please direct me to the discussion in question and I'll be happy to answer your questions more directly.
I am speaking from the experience of running a game using the current stealth rulings and having very few problems in dealing with it.
This is even with a 12th level Elf who has both Shadow Stride and Fleeting Ghost.
Brave Knights of W.T.F. Gryphon Helm Winner.
Edition wars kill players, this will kill Dungeons and Dragons.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 2:59PM
#348
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Date Joined:
Jun 28, 2006
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Why is that magical? They saw you run behind the wall, they just weren't able to react in time, heance you "retained the benefits of being hidden" until the end of the move action.
And the creatures will know where you're hiding either way. Its just a question of whether the rules consider you "hidden" at that moment or not.
I do recognise the distinction between being hidden and having the benefits of being hidden, but to me it is still magic. Or let's say 'supernatural'.
You can easily create cases where the stealther cannot have been moving swiftly enough to beat even slow human reaction times (a few fifths of a second).
I prefer to imagine that since hidden = invisibility, and since invisibility is an illusion, Stealth produces a psychological effect that interferes with cognition. The observers literally aren't aware of the hider's path until the end of the hider's action. Since they can't interrupt that action, but they can react to it, this exactly matches implementation at the game table.
It also makes it easier to understand how you can get hidden while nobody can see you (TC) and then can remain hidden with less cover or concealment. Getting hidden from people who can't see you anyway just makes my brain swim unless I think of it as supernatural.
EDIT: that said, I would have not broken hiding until the last square. Who really cares what path the hider took if you know where their last square is? And yes, I know this raises the fun question of whether you know the last square of hiders who break hiding and then continue into TC. That question exists either way 
-vk
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 3:01PM
#349
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2003
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Yes but my buddy who you also saw run behind the wall can't be found. When they round the wall.
See the problem?
I was hidden and moved to another hiding space = no longer hidden
My buddy was in the open and moved to the same hiding space = hidden
Which is an artifact of the fact that we have a system that measures everything in discrete units. There is is hidden and not hidden, nothing in between. Time is measured in actions and turns. Position is measured in descrete 5' cubes. These kind of wrinkles are simply a result of these approximations. When crossing from Total Concealment to Total Concealment, you must be visible for at least some length of time. The two options are that you must either be unhidden during the action, or you must be unhidden at the end of the action. If they want to model surprise when becomming unhidden, the first option wont work, so they go with the second option. But, for becomming hidden, the first option works better.
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5 years ago ::
Aug 04, 2008 - 3:08PM
#350
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2003
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You can easily create cases where the stealther cannot have been moving swiftly enough to beat even slow human reaction times (a few fifths of a second).
But, that assumes one notice's the hider immediately as the hider looses cover/concealment, and that the observers are able to react immediately. The observers might be fighting other creatures, looking in another direction, or otherwise occupied that delays their reaction time. Because the rules don't track where creatures or facing or what they're paying attention to, they assume some delay in reacting to hiders.
When the observer is readying an action for the hider this is probably not the case, but the rules would get pretty complicated if they had to make exceptions to account for every concievable situation.
That said, however it makes the mechanics work for you flavorwise is fine in my book.
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