Setup: The enemy troll has already moved further behind the corner to gain Total Concealment and made a hide check. The Hero has done the same but stayed where he is; no cover or concealment vs square A. The Hero has also readied an action to attack the Troll when he becomes visible. Both the Troll and the Hero have rolled Stealth rolls that beat the other's Passive Perception.
Action: The troll uses Deft Strike to move to square A and attacks the Hero. The Hero's readied action is set to go off after the action that reveals the Troll.
Questions: Does the Hero benefit from Stealth until the end of the Troll's Action? -My knee-jerk guess is, yes. Who, if anyone has CA vs the other? -My knee-jerk guess is, no one.
(1) The troll is an idiot. He doesn't need to move to square A, he only needs to move to the square right of A. At that point, the hero immediately becomes spotted by the troll (no cover or concealment). If the troll attacks (with CA), he then becomes unhidden, and the hero can retaliate.
(2) Let's assume the troll is an idiot (or has an ulterior motive for moving to A). There are two ways this can go:
(2a) My preferred option: we apply the 'after a move' exception as a general exception to reactions. As in (1) the hero becomes visible to the troll as soon as it moves to the square right of A. The troll continues to A, and at the end of this square of movement "hiddeness" is checked again. It fails, and the troll becomes visible. The hero's readied action triggers (with no CA for either), and then the troll complete's his attack.
Note: If the hero literally phrased the trigger as "after the action that reveals the troll" rather than "when I spot the troll", then he could arguably not attack until after the troll completed it's action. Again, interpretation of the "movement" exception applies.
(2b) If the move exception doesn't apply, then the hero is still spotted as usual. However, the troll does not become visible until after it makes its attack (with CA), and which point the hero's readied action triggers (no CA).
That's the question. You need line of sight to effect someone, but do you need it before you do the movement part of your action? Can you charge around a corner (or through a curtain, etc.) and then attack someone you couldn't see when you started your charge?
vonklaude wrote:
So if Hero hoped to attack before Troll, so readied against Troll's movement. Hero didn't see Troll's movement so loses the readied action. -vk
It seems to me that the player's intent should not really have an effect on their character's actions. Just beause a player intends to hit a monster doesn't mean that always happens lol. If the player were to say "I want to attack Troll when he pops out but before he attacks me", then when Troll steps out hidden and his character can't react, I would probably say "He was hidden and you were surprised by his attack and thus could not react in time. Do you want to attack now that you see him, even though he attacked already?"
I don't see a player arguing over that. Certainly with very specific, gamey readied actions you could have issues (I have not, but I understand it could happen), but it is a DM's job to pass down a ruling he believes is fair. It simply doesn't make sense to me for the following to occur (described in character):
1. Dudley Do-Right knows a troll is around the corner ready to ambush him, so he gets ready to shoot his bow when the troll pops out. 2. The troll jumps out, and despite Dudley being prepared he still manages to surprise him. The troll shoots his crossbow, nailing Dudley in the leg. 3. Since Dudley was prepared to shoot the troll as soon as he saw him, and was not expecting the troll to get the jump on him, he decides to just do nothing rather than release his arrow as soon as he's able.
Edit: In fact, I'm a little disappointed that they gave characters the ability to ignore a trigger when their readied action comes up. I used to like forcing characters to make will saves to prevent from attacking a friendly when they readied "to attack the next thing that comes through the door". :D
Edit2: Nom, the "after a move" exception does apply. It is not even really an exception, it is just how Immediate Reactions work. They trigger AFTER an action, but they INTERRUPT movement that triggers them. This is always how Immediate Reactions work. The problem is that the Hero cannot see the troll when he moves around the corner, because the troll retains the benefits of being hidden until his Deft Strike resolves. Because he cannot see him (I, and I believe most others, do not believe this means you cannot actually see them, but more that you cannot react in time to do anything until the hidden state is removed), his action does not get triggered until after the troll's action. Then hidden goes away and the Hero can see him (read: is no longer surprised by the hidden troll's action) and react.
1. Dudley Do-Right knows a troll is around the corner ready to ambush him, so he gets ready to shoot his bow when the troll pops out. 2. The troll jumps out, and despite Dudley being prepared he still manages to surprise him. The troll shoots his crossbow, nailing Dudley in the leg. 3. Since Dudley was prepared to shoot the troll as soon as he saw him, and was not expecting the troll to get the jump on him, he decides to just do nothing rather than release his arrow as soon as he's able.
Edit2: Nom, the "after a move" exception does apply. The problem is that the Hero cannot see the troll when he moves around the corner, because the troll retains the benefits of being hidden until his Deft Strike resolves. Because he cannot see him (I, and I believe most others, do not believe this means you cannot actually see them, but more that you cannot react in time to do anything), his action does not get triggered until after the troll's action. Then hidden goes away and the Hero can see him (read: is no longer surprised by the hidden troll's action) and react.
I agree with that too Nom. There is no exception: the action you become unhidden with completes in its entirety before others get to start reacting to you as unhidden.
My view of Dudley differs a little from yours though gosjim. Elsewhere you used wording something like 'technically they see X during X's move, but just can't react until the end'. This is of course excellent common sense, but dangerous wording and risks confusion. Technically they don't see X during X's move, only at the end. The event that triggered their seeing X at the end did happen during X's move, but that shouldn't be joined up with any supposition that anyone saw anything at that point.
Many will object to this, but I hope they can accept that it risks a plain error from fluff. What happens very strictly is that an event occurs to end Stealth, but that no one becomes aware of anything until Stealth ends. There are some obscure psych experiments that reveal that our brain does something like that at times. We really aren't aware of the triggering event, but moments later we seem to remember 'Hey, didn't a guy just come through here!'
gosjims]I, and I believe most others, do not believe this means you cannot actually see them, but more that you cannot react in time to do anything until the hidden state is removed
I believe that is what the designers are trying to model, so I will be ruling accordingly.
Nom, a melee situation where the Troll leaves cover on his first square of movement (out of two) might have illustrated the [my] point wrote:
I, and I believe most others, do not believe this means you cannot actually see them, but more that you cannot react in time to do anything until the hidden state is removed[/quote] I believe that is what the designers are trying to model, so I will be ruling accordingly.
Nom, a melee situation where the Troll leaves cover on his first square of movement (out of two) might have illustrated the [my] point better.
"Oh bother." sighed Pooh as he chambered another round.
Edit2: Nom, the "after a move" exception does apply. It is not even really an exception, it is just how Immediate Reactions work. They trigger AFTER an action, but they INTERRUPT movement that triggers them.
Uh, you've missed the whole point. I'm not talking about interrupts, I'm talking about whether the same exception should apply to "visible after action". One gets very different results for "move with stealth" if cover/concealment is checked after each square of movement that if it is checked after the action is completed.
OH, you were referring to whether STEALTH would be removed after movement, but before attack, for a single action?
In my opinion, I don't think it would be. Stealth says that it lasts until the end of your action, and so I believe it should last until after the attack part of Deft Strike. The "interrupts movement" is detailed only under Immediate Reactions, I'm fairly certain is not a "catch all" that applies in other situations.
But if you are referring to checking for stealth after each square moved, then I believe it is. It appears to me that if at any point during your movement you have neither cover, concealment, or blocked line of sight, then it becomes an "action that causes you not to have stealth". Then, after that entire action is resolved, stealth is removed.
Arguable, yes, you need to declare a target. But, when is the legality of that target checked (LOS, range, etc)? Is it checked (1) when the use of the power is declared, (2) immediately before the actual attack roll is made (i.e., after the movement part of Deft Strike), or (3) both? The RAW doesn't exactly cover this AFAIK, but it seems to me that choosing any option other than option 2 creates problems. Here's why:
Lets go with option 1: Rogue is adjacent to a Troll. Rogue declares the use of Deft Strike as a melee attack, declaring the troll as the target. The target is legal because the rogue is adjacent to the creature. Now, the rogue moves two squares away from the creature as part of Deft Strike, and then makes the attack roll. The rogue is attacking the creature from two-squares away with a melee attack, but its legal under this interpretation because the rogue was adjacent to the creature when the power was declared. This is counter-intuitive and non-realistic at the very least.
Lets go with option 3: Rogue is 2 squares away from the troll and has already spent his/her move action (or wants to save it until after the attack). The rogue wants to use Deft Strike to make a melee attack on the troll, but cannot because the rogue can't declare the troll as the target, even though the rogue could move adjacent to the troll as part of Deft Strike and then be within range when the actual attack roll was made. It seems awfully limiting for a power that can be used with melee attacks to allow the character to move but require that the character be adjacent to the target both before and after the move.
So, option 2 seems the logical choice: if a power includes movement or other things that can effect target legality, then the legality of the target is checked immediately before the attack roll is made. However, when the use of the power is declared, I think the player should be required to designate a target that one can expect to be legal when the actual attack is made. This does lead to the question of what happens if the target ends up being illegal (possibly due to an interrupt, or the target not being where expected). I guess the attack would auto-miss, or something.
Taking option 2 would mean that the troll could attack the hero using Deft Strike, because even though the troll doesn't have LOS to the hero when Deft Strike is declared, the troll knows about the hero and the troll will have LOS right before the attack roll is made.
The rules for timing in 4E seem a bit sketchy. VK read my mind when he commented that one would think WotC would have learned their lessens from the evolution of timing rules in MtG, which had similar problems at the start. Unlike MtG, though, 4E has DMs at least.
It also seems to me that the mechanics play out better if you go with option 2, and either of the other two options restrict the use of many powers in a way that seems contrary to what the power was intended to do. But, that's just my opinion.
RAW, I'd agree with you, but find it somewhat unsatisfying. "Because I started in shadow, I can run up to you (in bright daylight), do a lap around you, weave through two of your mates, and stab you with surprise."
It also makes Shadow Stride look very weak for a 10th level power. Any character can run from total cover to total cover through the open without losing effective stealth, but a level 10 rogue special power will allow them to do it to normal cover / concealment. Or a level 1 warlock class ability (plus Secret Stride feat or even a half-decent stealth modifier).
Nom, I'm not sure who you are referring to, but it seems you have an issue with stealth remaining until the end of an action that causes you to lose it. The problem with that is that the rules are incredibly clear on this. "Not Remaining Hidden: If you take an action that causes you not to remain hidden, you retain the benefits of being hidden until you resolve the action. You can’t become hidden again as part of that same action." This clearly means that, if moving out into the open then attacking by using Deft Strike causes you to lose stealth, you don't lose the benefits until after Deft Strike is resolved, so you attack with Combat Advantage.
If you engage in hyperbole and assume that means you can "run up to you (in bright daylight), do a lap around you, weave through two of your mates, and stab you with surprise", then you are simply being difficult. Unless it were somehow possible to do that in one action, then it's obviously overreaching the rules. Sure, you can charge out from around a corner and attack to get surprise on one move, but that's hardly any incredible feat.
What Stealth allows you to do is to walk out into the open and benefit from stealth until the end of your action. Once you are out in the open though, you lose stealth and are visible. Even if you moved from shadow to shadow and were only visible for a short amount of time, you lose the benefits of stealth at the end of your turn, and anyone who saw you move knows where you are, because you are no longer stealthed. Shadow Stride lets you move out into the open then back into cover, and if you make your second stealth check, NOBODY SAW YOU when you were out in the open. Normally you can't even make a second stealth check on that same movement.
Edit: This is the issue I was referring to earlier, where it makes more sense to me that even though you "retain the benefits of being hidden", what it means is not that you were invisible during that time, but that no one was able to react before you finish your action. Notice that it says you "retain the benefits of being hidden", not "retain being hidden". Exactly what the "benefits of being hidden" are is anyone's guess though. I take it to mean that you are everything BUT hidden from view, meaning you are TREATED as being hidden from view, but after your action resolves, everyone within view actually saw you do whatever you did, they just couldn't react. By this ruling, this means if you jump from total cover to total cover, yes no one can react to you doing it with a readied action, but once you stop moving, they can react to seeing you move where you did. It also makes more sense within the game world.
Any character can run from total cover to total cover through the open without losing effective stealth..
Actually, not quite true. The character would loose being hidden at the end of the move action, even with total cover, because the character can't re-stealth as part of the same action that caused the character to become unhidden. The character would have to spend a second move action after moving to total cover to re-hide, whereas the rogue would not.
lol. If the player were to say "I want to attack Troll when he pops out but before he attacks me", then when Troll steps out hidden and his character can't react, I would probably say "He was hidden and you were surprised by his attack and thus could not react in time. Do you want to attack now that you see him, even though he attacked already?"
