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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 8:30AM #71
Erudite
Date Joined: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 140
Just to consolidate most of what has been said for building a true Fochlucan Lyrist (Quad Threat), with no feat requirements, plus an idea or two of my own, see below.  As always, skill requirements and MAD remain a sticking point, so being in a generous point-buy or roll-your-ability-score environment using fractional BAB and Saves is a real lifesaver.

Bard 4/Hunting Druid 1(UA)/Martial Rogue 2(UA)/Green Whisperer 3(Dr311)/Sublime Chord 2/Fochlucan Lyrist 8

FEATS
Required Feats: None
Recommended Feats: Able Learner
Available Feats (Human without Flaws): 10
Optimum Feats Recommended: Snowflake Wardance, Nymph’s Kiss, Power Attack, Combat Expertise, Improved Initiative, Practiced Caster-Sublime Chord, Combat Reflexes, Dodge, Karmic Strike, Leadership.  You can substitute Words of Creation if you are Neutral Good and replace Nymph’s Kiss if you have a generous Int.

SKILLS
Assume Int 14, you have roughly four skills aside from Perform and Profession (astrologer) you can max out (possibly more).  Max out UMD, Diplomacy, Spellcraft, and Knowledge (arcane).  Others to max out if possible include Hide and Movesilently, or Bluff and Sense Motive, depending on play style and party role.

If you have Flaws, grabbing Obtain Familiar and Improved Familiar (bogun) is nice.  Your little Bogun can, just like a homunculus,  use your UMD with the Nymph Cheerleader’s (see below) bonus, give you a constant +2 aid bonus to all skill attempts, and be polymorphed into an Effigy creature you can ride around on.

Use Leadership to grab a Vow of Poverty Nymph Marshall 7/Druid 4 cheerleader with Motivate Charisma (for UMD checks and Diplomacy), Motivate Intelligence (for those eventual Epic Spell checks and Bardic Lore), Motivate Dexterity (for Initiative, should be the default motivation), and Determined Caster (overcome spell resistance and easier dispels).

EQ
Recommended Equipment:

Adamantine Maiming(MiniH) Dueling(MiniH) Scimitar of Wrathful Healing(E&A)
Soul Fire(BoED) Tesselated(A&EG) Mithril Fullplate Armor of Heavy Fortification
Star Mantle Cloak(BoED)
Keen Scabbard
Belt of Magnificence +6.

For defense, a Spiked Gauntlet of Spellbalde, Defending, and Warding is nice.

For ranged attacks, a Magebane(CA) Seeking(MoF) Shortbow of Songs(CV) can use ammunition with Radiant Holding(MoF), Lucky(XPH), and Binding(A&EG) is nice.

Anything which increases your stealth is a plus.When a weapon hits you, make a Ref save to avoid all of the damage and then hit them back using Karmic Strike.  You may even break their weapon.  Do NOT buy +5 inherent bonuses to ability scores if you plan to go epic.  Careful use of a thought bottle and/or Epic Spells will give you the same bonuses if you can be patient.

Class Features:
Bardic Music as Bard 16
Bardic Knowledge as Bard 16
Wis to AC (useful for when you are without your armor)
Trapfinding
Evasion
Song of Power
Unbound

Spells Available:
9th level Sublime Chord spells as SbC 10 with casting level 18 (or 20 depending on DM)
3rd level Bard spells as Brd 7 with casting level 18 (or 20 depending on DM)
6th level Druid spells as Drd 12 with casting level 12.

NG druids can make use of spells from BoED.  Yet another advantage of being a good FL.

SPELLS RECOMMENDED (lots of thanks owed here to Snow Savant from the sorcerer spells thread)

Underlined spells would be if you can get them from the original Illumian sigil, Hoon.

1st = Know Protections, Incite, Swift Expeditious Retreat, Benign Transposition

2 = Alter Self, Undeniable Gravity, Detect Thoughts, Mirror Image

3 = Clairvoyance/Clairaudiance, Major Image

4 = Evard's Black Tentacles, Dimensional Anchor, Greater Invisibility, & Charm Monster.

5 = Teleport, Telekinesis, Magic Jar, & Ghostform.

6 = Greater Dispel Magic, Prismatic Eye, Disintigrate, Antimagic Field

7 = Reality Maelstrom, Greater Scrying, Simbul's Spell Sequencer.

8 = Mind Blank, & Polymorph Any Object, Reverse Gravity, Force Cage

9 = Shades, Gate, Shapechange, Time Stop, Reaving Dispell


ALTERNATE ROUTES
Better Damage - Sub a level of Dragonslayer for one level of Greenwhisperer.  You lose a level of druid casting for the ability to use all martial weapons and be immune to fear.  Best for a FL who wants to wield a two handed weapon, Falchion recommended.  Allows for better power attacks using that nice Cha bonus from Wardance and the doubled bonuses from the inspire courage ability. Requires Iron Will and Dodge, so you are losing a feat, probably Karmic Strike.

Better Stealth - Sub two levels of Shadow Dancer in for the two Rogue levels.  Get Evasion, Hide in Plain Sight, Uncanny Dodge, and Darkvision.  Combined with +x to Hide/Move Silently equipment and spells like Forest Fold, enemy mages will find it hard to target you with spells, and damage dealers will have a hard time figuring out where you are.   Requires Dodge, Mobility, and Combat Expertise, so you are losing another feat to take one, Mobility, you would not otherwise take.  My recommendation is lose Leadership, if you can get LA buyoff (UA).  Then grab Fire-Souled template (Dr ??) to get +4 Cha and Leadership feat for +3 LA.  If not, lose Improved Initiative, and grab some equipment to help you out (see the Optimizing Initiative Thread ).

ALTERNATE RACES:
If you can get your DM to use the +1 LA Illumian race originally posted on the Wiz Web Site (it has since been removed and replaced with the weaker version), go in this order with Sigils: Khur, Bley, Zill, Vaul, Shel, Hoon.  This gives +6 rounds of Bardic Music, +3 saves, +6 to overcome SR, +6 HD limit of polymorph spells, and six extra spells known of 9th level or lower.  You don't even need LA buyoff.


EPIC:
Either go Epic Fochlucan Lyrist or Eldritch Master (Dr 280) depending on how you like your Epic spells.  My own preference would be 5 levels of FL immediately to get extra Epic Spell Slots (double the normal number, 6 slots at level 27), and then at least 4 levels of ElM and grab the Cleric spell list.  If you keep going ElM, grab the Ranger spell list, since you get an abundance of lower level buff spells from the ranger (arrow storm and blade storm, wraithstrike, etc.).

EPIC Feats
21st - Epic Spell Casting
24th - Epic Leadership (Bump up your Cheerleader)
27th - Battle Dance (Dr #297, pg 28), Epic Inspiration

EPIC Buffs:
With Epic magic, you can get +5 inherent bonuses to each ability score.  You can also give yourself +20 enhancement to at least one ability score for 40 hours, and at least three ability scores by level 27, all for minimal XP, gold, and time, even without a multitude of caster allies and a though bottle.
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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 9:43AM #72
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,906

While you can take any class skills you want, Speak Language (Druidic) is technically Druid Only


I believe, for the purpose off all variantes, each class retains all of the basic PHB abilities, progression and features except for the noted changes in UA. Such, A Variant Druid, still would have the base language of Druidic just wouldnt be able to wild shape, ever.

As Urnsk pointed out, generic classes are not meant to mix with base classes. I should have thought of that before cause it does cause a bit of trouble.


I guess this is upto a DM.. then again, anything UA is upto the DM.

think what a rogue could do for his sneak attack if he took levels of expert at the right time. Nasty.


I've already thought about this as my DM is allowing me to use UA for my Rogue in the current campaign. I didn't fully optimize it but in the end he is
CE Human Rogue 5/ Warrior 2/ Expert 2/ Fighter 2/ Assassin 9.. I believe the final +Sneak Attack generated is +15d6 along with getting the basic 8 feats for a level 20 human character he gets 2 for warrior and 2 for fighter (Swapping the 2 expert at level 9 and 18 for the 2 Sneak Attack abilities to get +7d6.. they look like they stack) So in the end you have 12 feats to play with thus i decided to grab the TWF chain, Spring Attack chain, and the Karmic Strike/Double Hit chain. (11 Feats I believe)

Note that you can't "drop Bard 1 and up FL by 1" because Sublime Chord requires 13 ranks in a skill, and can't be taken until 11th level -- same thing with FL.


Ya, I see that now, thanx.

You can advance the casting of the Druid *or* the Ur-Priest.
Build 1: Druid Level 2, Ur-Priest Level 10, Bard level 16.

Similarly with Build 2.


Ya, i thought about this after and naturally you'd select to progress the UrPriest if you knew anything about the build right? Just slipped my mind.

I think that you need bard 7 for Lv 3 spells. Moho Tsukai can be a useful alternative.


As I noted under the second build to take Sublime Chord after first level of FL, which would take Bard 6 upto Bard 7 in caster level giving it level 4 arcane. Therefore making the pre-req for Sublime Chord, or so I hope =)

For the purposes of Bardic music:
Fochlucan Lyrist adds it's full level
Sublime chord adds 1/2 level *only for the purposes of uses per day*.

For the purposes of casting:
Fochlucan Lyrist adds 1 arcane caster level, every level. You can use this to advance any casting, including Sublime Chord.

Does this answer your question?


Yes it does, thanx. So in the end i'd just up Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest levels only. Cool.

just make sure that in one of your first levels you have a class which has Perform (String) as a class skill.


Ya, Thats why I selected Expert as the base class in the first place mainly due to the customization of class skills. But, If a DM doesn't permit it you'd most likely look at using Rogue. Variant Rogue would fit well.

"Regardless of whether a skill is purchased as a class skill or a cross-class skill, if it is a class skill for any of your classes, your maximum rank equals your total character level + 3."


Ahh, Then Perform (String) 13, as well as all the other skills, are easily obtained. Thanks.


Well, Sorry for all the quotes and such but there was tons of replies.
Thanx for clearing alot of things up and hopefully some more feedback will follow.

Ensanitii

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 9:59AM #73
DavidWL
Date Joined: May 13, 2005
Posts: 245
Ensanitii,

Interesting. I was looking at Expert 2/ Fighter 2 for the Sneak Attack myself. I was thinking, "with Invisible Blade 5, can we make this into a good combat build?"

As I noted under the second build to take Sublime Chord after first level of FL, which would take Bard 6 upto Bard 7 in caster level giving it level 4 arcane. Therefore making the pre-req for Sublime Chord, or so I hope =)


Oops. My bad.

Also, if we are allowing UA stuff, I really like the Rogue Variant (Fighting).
2 level comparison:
Rogue Variant: 2 bonus fighter feats, trapfinding, evasion
Expert: 2 bonus feats (one of which will be spent on evasion)
So, it is 1 general feat or 2 fighter feats and trapfinding.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 10:35AM #74
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,906

DavidWL]Interesting. I was looking at Expert 2/ Fighter 2 for the Sneak Attack myself. I was thinking, "with Invisible Blade 5, can we make this into a good combat build?"


First, Looking at Invisible Blade 5 it could be cool. Not the best thread to talk about this tho but if you just look at things you could probably get:
Invisible Blade 5: +3d6 Sneak Attack
Expert 1: +3d6 Sneak Attack (If taken at right time)
Expert 2: +4d6 Sneak Attack (If taken at right time)
*Note: Warrior generic class also does the same thing with its bonus feats and gives +1BAB at level 1 instead of +0BAB like Expert. Although, you lose alot of skill points, extra save and more customized skill selection.
Assassin 1: +1d6 Sneak Attack & Death Attack (pump with +Int to make it worth it)
Guild Thief: +1d6 Sneak Attack (I believe at level 1)
So, in the end you have +12d6 right there for 9 levels.
So, if you take Rogue to 11, thats another +6d6 so a +18d6 Sneak Attack.
Which is nice, I bet theres a few other prestige classes a person could fit into the build for +1d6 sneak attack more. But, with UA there is alot of advantages for that extra sneak attack damage.
*EDIT HERE: Just thinking about this more and if you kill 4 levels of Rogue (+4d6 SA) and take Variant Fighter 1 (+1d6) and Ninja 1 (+1d6 Sudden Strike, same thing, really) you have 2 open levels for acquiring another +2d6 SA or a skill like it. Basically generating a +20d6 effect when flanking/denied dex/feinting.

Interesting. I was looking at Expert 2/ Fighter 2 for the Sneak Attack myself. I was thinking, "with Invisible Blade 5, can we make this into a good combat build?"[/quote]
First, Looking at Invisible Blade 5 it could be cool. Not the best thread to talk about this tho but if you just look at things you could probably get:
Invisible Blade 5: +3d6 Sneak Attack
Expert 1: +3d6 Sneak Attack (If taken at right time)
Expert 2: +4d6 Sneak Attack (If taken at right time)
*Note: Warrior generic class also does the same thing with its bonus feats and gives +1BAB at level 1 instead of +0BAB like Expert. Although, you lose alot of skill points, extra save and more customized skill selection.
Assassin 1: +1d6 Sneak Attack & Death Attack (pump with +Int to make it worth it)
Guild Thief: +1d6 Sneak Attack (I believe at level 1)
So, in the end you have +12d6 right there for 9 levels.
So, if you take Rogue to 11, thats another +6d6 so a +18d6 Sneak Attack.
Which is nice, I bet theres a few other prestige classes a person could fit into the build for +1d6 sneak attack more. But, with UA there is alot of advantages for that extra sneak attack damage.
*EDIT HERE: Just thinking about this more and if you kill 4 levels of Rogue (+4d6 SA) and take Variant Fighter 1 (+1d6) and Ninja 1 (+1d6 Sudden Strike, same thing, really) you have 2 open levels for acquiring another +2d6 SA or a skill like it. Basically generating a +20d6 effect when flanking/denied dex/feinting.

Also, if we are allowing UA stuff, I really like the Rogue Variant (Fighting).
2 level comparison:
Rogue Variant: 2 bonus fighter feats, trapfinding, evasion
Expert: 2 bonus feats (one of which will be spent on evasion)
So, it is 1 general feat or 2 fighter feats and trapfinding.


As for taking Variant Rogue over Expert it is a nice change. The only reason I mainly decided to use Expert was the full customization of skills. Therefore with a +2 or +3 Int mod @ L2 you can basically have all the skills Rank 5. Althought Rogue with a +3 int would get 12 skills with Human. It looks to be better over all and in the end if your DM wont allow generic classes, but allows variants, it would be the best. I still like the skill customization aspect of the generic classes though.

Ensanitii

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 11:32AM #75
Votan
Date Joined: Jan 5, 2004
Posts: 135

gabrion]As Urnsk pointed out, generic classes are not meant to mix with base classes. I should have thought of that before cause it does cause a bit of trouble.


Like when playign with gesalt classes, generic classes change the way that the game works completely. In particular, they make the requirements for many prestige classes almost trivial. The ability to pick skills makes all sorts of limiting factors obselete. The ability of the generic spellcaster to pick any spell regardless of spell list is a massive edge. When combined with the spells and feats in the complete adventurer, sneak attack, for eample, can be way better than ever intended.

Just something to wrote:

As Urnsk pointed out, generic classes are not meant to mix with base classes. I should have thought of that before cause it does cause a bit of trouble.[/quote]
Like when playign with gesalt classes, generic classes change the way that the game works completely. In particular, they make the requirements for many prestige classes almost trivial. The ability to pick skills makes all sorts of limiting factors obselete. The ability of the generic spellcaster to pick any spell regardless of spell list is a massive edge. When combined with the spells and feats in the complete adventurer, sneak attack, for eample, can be way better than ever intended.

Just something to watch.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 1:20PM #76
gabrion
Date Joined: Mar 1, 2005
Posts: 168

Ensanitii]I guess this is upto a DM.. then again, anything UA is upto the DM.


Well obviously all the UA stuff is up to the DM, but I was simply pointing out that even in UA it specifically says that if you use the Generic Classes they should replace the normal classes and you should no longer allow base classes. It says PrCs are still fine, but all of the base classes are a no no with Generic Classes.

I guess this is upto a DM.. then again, anything UA is upto the DM.[/quote]
Well obviously all the UA stuff is up to the DM, but I was simply pointing out that even in UA it specifically says that if you use the Generic Classes they should replace the normal classes and you should no longer allow base classes. It says PrCs are still fine, but all of the base classes are a no no with Generic Classes.

Votan]Like when playign with gesalt classes, generic classes change the way that the game works completely. In particular, they make the requirements for many prestige classes almost trivial. The ability to pick skills makes all sorts of limiting factors obselete. The ability of the generic spellcaster to pick any spell regardless of spell list is a massive edge. When combined with the spells and feats in the complete adventurer, sneak attack, for eample, can be way better than ever intended.


Exactly. Arcane Trickster is a good example of no longer needing multiple base classes. You can pretty much be a wizard and a rogue with no drawback as long as you use the Generic Wizard with the right skill set and feats.

I also think this is the very reason Generics deserve a shout out it a thread like this, since they can provide a solid base for multi threat characters. Of course they are a rules varient, but a good one for these kinds of wrote:

Like when playign with gesalt classes, generic classes change the way that the game works completely. In particular, they make the requirements for many prestige classes almost trivial. The ability to pick skills makes all sorts of limiting factors obselete. The ability of the generic spellcaster to pick any spell regardless of spell list is a massive edge. When combined with the spells and feats in the complete adventurer, sneak attack, for eample, can be way better than ever intended.[/quote]
Exactly. Arcane Trickster is a good example of no longer needing multiple base classes. You can pretty much be a wizard and a rogue with no drawback as long as you use the Generic Wizard with the right skill set and feats.

I also think this is the very reason Generics deserve a shout out it a thread like this, since they can provide a solid base for multi threat characters. Of course they are a rules varient, but a good one for these kinds of builds.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 1:46PM #77
zombiegleemax
Date Joined: Aug 10, 2009
Posts: 470,906

gabrion]I was simply pointing out that even in UA it specifically says that if you use the Generic Classes they should replace the normal classes and you should no longer allow base classes. It says PrCs are still fine, but all of the base classes are a no no with Generic Classes.


Ya, I re-read over the introduction text where it says you shouldn't use PHB classes with the Generic (Also, No Variants with the Generic Classes either). This would seem to kill being able to use Expert for any Fochlucan Lyrist build (Unless you can persuade the DM else wise.. which would be hard).

So, I guess the best use of UA for the Fochlucan Lyrist builds would be to focus on the Variant Rogue for the Bonus 2 Fighter Feats instead of +1d6 Sneak Attack and the Variant Druid / Avenger Druid for the Druidic Language (I like the Avenger Druid more for the Fast Movement at Level 1). Therefore you'd end up with something like:

Variant Rogue 2/ Avenger Druid 1/ Bard 5/ Ur-Priest 2/ Focluchan Lyrist 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Focluchan Lyrust 6

There probably is a better way to fix this build so that you get 9th-level spells for both Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord but I don't personally have enough knowledge of Prestige Classes to figure out one.

If you have any examples, that you could possibly remove a level in Bard that would increase the Bard spell-caster level to 7 for the Sublime Chord before you take the 8 levels in Focluchan Lyrist, please post them and which book they would be in.

Thanks,
En wrote:

I was simply pointing out that even in UA it specifically says that if you use the Generic Classes they should replace the normal classes and you should no longer allow base classes. It says PrCs are still fine, but all of the base classes are a no no with Generic Classes.[/quote]
Ya, I re-read over the introduction text where it says you shouldn't use PHB classes with the Generic (Also, No Variants with the Generic Classes either). This would seem to kill being able to use Expert for any Fochlucan Lyrist build (Unless you can persuade the DM else wise.. which would be hard).

So, I guess the best use of UA for the Fochlucan Lyrist builds would be to focus on the Variant Rogue for the Bonus 2 Fighter Feats instead of +1d6 Sneak Attack and the Variant Druid / Avenger Druid for the Druidic Language (I like the Avenger Druid more for the Fast Movement at Level 1). Therefore you'd end up with something like:

Variant Rogue 2/ Avenger Druid 1/ Bard 5/ Ur-Priest 2/ Focluchan Lyrist 2/ Sublime Chord 2/ Focluchan Lyrust 6

There probably is a better way to fix this build so that you get 9th-level spells for both Ur-Priest and Sublime Chord but I don't personally have enough knowledge of Prestige Classes to figure out one.

If you have any examples, that you could possibly remove a level in Bard that would increase the Bard spell-caster level to 7 for the Sublime Chord before you take the 8 levels in Focluchan Lyrist, please post them and which book they would be in.

Thanks,
Ensanitii

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 3:51PM #78
Erudite
Date Joined: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 140
The "easiest" way to do a Sublime Ur-Lyrist is as follows:

Human with Able Learner

Hunting Druid 1/Bard 5/Martial Rogue 2/Mind Bender 1/Dragon Slayer1/Ur-Priest 1/Sublime Chord 1/Fochlucan Lyrist 8.

Req Feats: Iron Will, Dodge, Spell Focus (evil)

Perfectly Legal, no funny business. You still have 9th level Arcane and Divine spells, but lose out on all the neat exalted stuff.

Cheers.
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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 10:16PM #79
ed209
Date Joined: Aug 16, 2003
Posts: 37

Erudite]EPIC Feats
21st - Epic Spell Casting
24th - Epic Leadership
27th - Battle Dance (Dr #?), Epic Inspiration


Battle Dance is in DM #297, wrote:

EPIC Feats
21st - Epic Spell Casting
24th - Epic Leadership
27th - Battle Dance (Dr #?), Epic Inspiration[/quote]
Battle Dance is in DM #297, pg 28.

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8 years ago  ::  Jul 02, 2005 - 10:49PM #80
Erudite
Date Joined: Apr 11, 2004
Posts: 140
Thanks Ed,

Too busy to look that one up myself!

Erudite
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