So is a binder assumed to have knowledge of all the vestiges or does he have to find them somehow? I couldn't find where in the tome of magic it said anything about this.
They're supposed to have all knowledge of them.
But, you're right, it isn't discussed very well. I've heard of DMs making players randomly get access to just a few per level; to me, this is wrong, as that's a completely new mechanic. When in doubt, keep your Knowledge: Planes maximized for this situation.
EDIT: The second paragraph under "The Binder" has in its first line "Only the binder has that key, for only he knows the vestiges' special seals and the rituals by which they can be called from the void beyond reality." This could be taken for flavor text, but it does say that they know the seals, and under the flavor section before that on the process of binding, it doesn't say anywhere that the binder needs to know what they're binding (as long as they draw the seal).
Though on the subject of “Known Vestiges” the subject “Existing Vestiges” might come up, because depending on what campaign you're playing in certain vestiges "don't exist yet." So you might be in a little hot water when your DM pulls out a stack of old books saying: "I'm thinking of running an old campaign."
The reason for this is almost ALL of the Vestiges are old villains or important figures from D&D’s history. Even though binding a vestige with the same name as a predominant villian in your campaign has absolutely NO impact on the game, some DMs will get really antsy about it. Simply talk to them and just Rename the vestige and retool its lore.
Vestige that I know for sure that are from past campaigns: Amon, Leraje, Ronove, Haagenti, Karsus, Primus, Ahazu, Tenebrous, Kas, Astaroth (non-cityscape), Acererak, Geryon, Zagan, Ashardalon
Not 100% about: Naberius, Eligor, Marchosias- because I suspect they went be different names at the time of living.
Editted: Removed Spoilers...
I'm working on a binder/ur-priest, and am wondering what vestiges would be good to bind. I've looked through the handbook and Tome of Magic, but there are so many choices...
I'm using one of Frank and K's PrCs (Stranger with the Burning Eyes), which requires Still and Silent Spell to get into, and I'm cheesing early entry into Anima Mage with Precocious Apprentice and Improved Binding. I'm also assuming the DM will let me change Anima Mage from adding to Sorcerer levels to Ur-Priest levels. I'm also making pretty heavy use of Mother Cyst, so that has to stay.
Pretty much the build is locked into stone. I'm just looking for what vestiges would be good to bind for day to day needs. All the party roles are filled (and then some), so mostly I'll keep stuff bound for combat most of the time, I guess. I'm definitely buying a vestige phylactery, though.
The character has no body of his own, and has enslaved a war troll which he usually possesses via a supernatural Magic Jar ability. He mostly functions as a self-buffing melee character, but can also try and possess enemies in combat and out of it, and is a devious guy with lots of connections.
So... here's what I have so far:
Human Sorc 1/Binder1/Anima Mage 3/Ur-Priest 1/AM+4/Contemplative 1/SwBE1
Feats: Spell Focus: Evil (human), PrecocApp(flaw1)(retrained to Silent Spell at ECL 5), Still Spell (flaw2), Toughness (1)(retrained to Improved Binding at ECL2), Extend Spell (3), Mother Cyst (6), Practiced SC: UrP (9), Persistent Spell (12), Iron Will (Otyugh Hole)
Feats from being devoted to an Elder Evil: Evil's Blessing, Dark Speech, Dark Whispers
Domain from contemplative: Sin-Envy (needed to get into SwBE)
EBL 10 (5th level vestiges), UrP 7, Sorc4
Vestiges usually bound: Balam, (Naberius, Buer, Dantalion?)
Long duration buffs (all CL 20 unless noted otherwise): Consumptive Field (CL14), Divine Power, Righteous Might, Righteous Wrath of the Faithful, Magic Vestment (x2), Greater Magic Weapon, Superior Resistance, Heroes Feast, Permanent Arcane Sight (CL21), Shield Other (on familiar).
Naberius would let me use the Dark Whispers vile feat with impunity, which is decent, but there are alot of other good choices. The campaign will involve planar travel, investigation, and tough combat with powerful enemies.
So, I read 8 EBL so that gives you 1 vestige... uhm... Naberius, and you're done I guess...
Other options: The Green Lady (the Paizo-board based one), choosing Ray of Enfeeblement as your 1st level spell choice (get it? Su Ray of Enfeeblement at CL 8? So, d6+4 Str penalty on a ranged touch, with no SR? Sounds like an awesome debuff to me!).
I also like Malphus for general sneaky shenanigans. Andras will give you some nice Cha synergy w/ the smiting. Yeah, thats about it, I guess.
He has EBL 10, from Improved Binding. I'm thinking of keeping Balam bound all the time, and switching between these others:
Astaroth (stench, yellowed skin)(item crafting): http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/we/20070307a
Bardic Knowledge, Stinking Cloud breath, skill bonuses, craftsman, Suggestion
Buer (hooves)(OOC healing): healing touch, fast healing, disease and poison immunity (30 foot RADIUS), Track, +4 Know (nature, untrained), +4 survival
Dantalion (face on torso)(movement): Sanctuary (more powerful version), Read Thoughts, teleport 50' 1/5 rnds, +8 knowledge
Geryon (eyes)(scouting/movement): +4 spot and search, swift fly 60' 1/5 rnds, see in darkness, all-around-vision, acidic gaze (30', 2d6, will negates)
Malphas (black teeth and tongue)(scouting): Move action invisibility, summon dove/raven, Poison Use, Sudden Strike (3d6)
Naberius: when I feel like using Dark Speech/Whispers
When needed, I can use these combos:
Otiax (blue fog): Combat Reflexes, Concealing Mist (personal concealment), Open Portal (swift action), Unlock (up to DC 20), Air Blast (2d6 touch attack, 10 ft range)
Paimon (stretched mouth)(vs mobs): Whirlwind Attack, pseudo-dervish dance, +4 dex, tumble +4
Astaroth: +4 comp. to bluff, intimidate, and diplom, Suggestion (as spell)
Naberius (gravelly voice): take 10 bluff and dipl, rushed, Command (as spell)
Astaroth: bardic knowledge (EBL)
Dantalion: +8 all unnamed
8 EBL still gives him two vestiges?
Right. So I'm thinking I'll keep Balam bound if I'm expecting to get into combat at all (or pretty much all the time...), and use the others as listed. I really like the reroll every 5 rounds. That's just freakin' amazing. The boost to initiative and other stuff is awesome, too. Right now, his Initiative is going to be +18 most of the time, and that's without Improved Initiative... That plus the Cunning ability from his Legacy item should mean that he pretty much always goes first, even when the group is surprized (except for the party Factotum, whose init. is +20 :P ).
Since I can bind a vestige given a minute or two, or faster if I have it in the Phylactery ahead of time, what do you guys think about going around with only 1 bound, and binding another when I think I'll need it? That would give me a bit more flexibility than just having 2+ the phylactery. Most of the others besides Balam are just gravy, anyway. Or is that just silly?
I'm also considering using clerical divinations to see which ones would be best to bind ahead of time.
Use the divinations, and use the one that gives divination every round (I forget the name).
Naberius, to me, is the most general can-use-it-in-any-situation vestige you have listed (plus, as you got it, the Dark Speach / Whispers...).
Yeah that's not a bad plan at all.
Ok... I'm in love with Binders I guess. :D I'm making another one. This is for a gestalt game starting at 1st level. It is also a PbP, so I want to plan for early levels, mostly. It is a pseudo-viking setting, and I'm sure some people would want to burn me at the stake if I started walking around with horns and breathing fire. Most of the enemies will probably be human, though, at least to start.
I'm thinking of pairing it with either rogue or bard for skills at 1st, or maybe the trapfinding ranger variant. That favored enemy (human) could actually come in handy in a human-centric game. Druid is actually tempting too, though, as having a mount and focusing on melee combat would probably be pretty effective. I'm leaning more towards the sneaky, skill-based guy, with lots of tricks up his sleeves, though.
Suggestions? I'm leaning strongly towards Binder/Ranger or Binder/Rogue at this point. Race will be human or half-elf (if I decide to go diplomonster).
I think he's nerfed Swift Hunter and other gestalt-like feats. I was thinking Leraje might actually be decent at 1st, though. +1 to hit, a boost to hide, and hit two targets per shot is actually decent. I'll probably have Malphus or Naberius bound most of the time, though. Or Savnok. Freakin full plate is hard to beat for melee at level 1. :P I doubt I'll stick with ranger, though, as I think I'm dumping Wis. It is a hard choice, because some of those non-core ranger spells are really good. I could always dip archivist, though, if I want to get the casting back. :D
Still debating if I want to focus on melee or ranged, ultimately. At level 1, I will definitely be using a bow if possible, though.
Ok, I think I'm going Binder 1//Ranger 1 at 1st, and taking Skill Focus: Diplomacy and Improved Binding. At level 2, I'll pick up a level of Marshall and trade SF: Dip for Expel Vestige. With a MW tool, that will let me get a 21 taking 10 with Naberius on Diplomacy at level 1, and it will jump to 30 at level 2 (+6 from synergy, +1 rank, and another +2 from Motivate Charisma).
DC 20 gets me from Hostile to Indifferent (avoiding fights, good at level 1), and DC 30 can get me from Indifferent to Friendly, or Unfriendly to Friendly (both really good for manipulating people).
The loss of Expel Vestige will sting, but hopefully I can live with it for one level. I think I will be able to plan what vestige to bind, based on how I see this campaign progressing. It will involve lots of exploration and overland traveling, with encounters along the way, I think. I'll bind Naberius when I know we're going to be in town, Malphus when we're traveling, and maybe Savnok if I know a big fight is coming up soon.
My main worry is that the DM will basically Rule 0 Diplomacy into uselessness, leaving me with signifigant resources wasted (a feat, which could have been Expel Vestige, and 50 gp of my precious starting money).
Here is the character:
(Human Binder 1//Ranger 1)
Hit Dice:1d8+2 (10)
Armor Class: 17 Touch: 12 Flat-footed: 15 (10+3armor+2shield+2dex)
Base Attack/Grapple: +1/+3
Attack: longsword +3 (1d8+2, 19-20/x2), sling +3 (1d4+2, 20/x2, 50' range increment)
Full Attack: same
Special Qualities: Favored Enemy: Human (+2 Bluff, Sense Motive, Spot, Listen, Survival, and damage); Wild Empathy; Soul Binding (1 vestige)
Saves: Fort +4, Ref +4, Will +1
Abilities: Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 8, Cha 14
Skills: (ranks + modifiers)(number after slash is vs. humans) Hide +3 (4+2-3), Move Silently +3 (4+2-3), Spot +3/5 (4-1), Listen -1/+1, Bluff +6/8 (4+2), Diplomacy +11(4+2+3+2), Knowledge: Arcana +3(1+2), Knowledge: Planes +3(1+2), Knowledge: Nobility & Royalty +4 (2+2), Sense Motive +3/5(4-1), Search +6(4+2), Survival +3/5(4-1)
Feats: Improved Binding, Skill Focus: Diplomacy, Track, martial weapons, shields (not tower), light armor
Alignment: True Neutral
Languages Spoken: Common (Rashemi), Common (Halruuan), Giant
Possessions: (starting money 150 gp) studded leather (25 gp, 20 lbs, -1 ACP), heavy wooden shield (7 gp, 10 lbs, -2 ACP), sling and 10 bullets (1 gp, 5 lbs), cold iron longsword (30 gp, 4 lbs), cold weather outfit (8 gp, 7 lbs), 50' silk rope (10 gp, 5 lbs), backpack (2 lbs, 2 gp), winter blanket (5 sp, 3 lbs), 5 pieces of chalk (5 cp), flint and steel (1 gp), torch (1 cp, 1 lb), empty waterskin (1 gp, 4 lbs full), magnificent bearhide cape (MW diplomacy tool, 50 gp), 3 elvencrafted arrows (?)
Money: 14 gold, 4 silver, 4 copper
Encumbrance: Light (58 lb. or less) Medium (59-116 lb.) Heavy (117-175 lb.); 57 lbs total gear weight
Soul Binding description: (the DM doesn't have Tome of Magic) Spoiler: Show
The first step to call and bind a vestige is to draw its unique sign, which is about 5 feet across. This takes about 1 minute, and some vestiges have special requirements about how they can be summoned (see individual entries). Then the binder performs a ritual which takes a full round action to call out to the vestige, using its name and title. The vestige appears as a dramatic image, described in each entry, but obviously illusionary to anyone who studies it. It ignores everyone but its summoner. The binder must immediately (within 1 round) begin negotiating with the vestige. This negotiation takes one minute, at the end of which he makes a binding check (1d20+ effective binder level (EBL) + charisma modifier vs the DC listed for that vestige). Successful or not, he gains all the powers listed for that vestige for 24 hours. Unsuccessful bindings allow the vestige to influence the binder's behavior while they bound, though. Regardless, the binder also manifests some sign of the bound vestige (not an illlusion, still shown as real by True Seeing, etc).
Vestiges Herger can Bind (currently bound vestige(s) underlined):
* Amon (DC 20)
Description: Amon was once an ancient god of light, but has been forgotten and has grown bitter.
Sign: ram horns
Influence: Become surly and irritable; must resist spells from clerics of fire, sun, and law deities.
Special requirements: Hates Chupoclops, Eurynome, Karsus, and Leraje. Will not come if you've called them within 24 hrs.
Granted abilities: Darkvision (60'), Fire Breath* (1d6/level, line 10'/lvl, Reflex for half), Ram Attack (1d6+1.5str + 1d8 on a charge)
* Aym (DC15)
Description: Ancient dwarven empress whose greed ruined her empire.
Sign: Small star-shaped brand on left pal
Influence: Become stingy and greedy, but must give a coin to every dwarf w/in 10 rounds of learning his name
Granted abilities: Dwarven Step (not slowed by armor), Halo of Fire (body flames do 1d6 to attackers, can turn on and off at will), Improved Sunder, Medium Armor Proficiency, Resistance to Fire (10), Ruinous Attack (in melee do double damage to objects)
* Leraje (DC 15)
Description: Correlon Larethian's first herald, famous elven archer, taught elves to make and use bows, was cast out due to her pride.
Sign: Look sickly and diseased. Skin sallow and pockmarked.
Influence: Become quiet and unassuming. Cannot attack any with elven blood.
Special requirement: Must break an arrow crafted by an elf! Will not come if Amon bound already.
Granted abilities: Hide Bonus (+4), Low-Light Vision, Precise Shot, Ricochet (shoot 2 adjacent targets as Std action), Weapon Proficiency (bows, or +1 to attack if you already have it)
* Naberius (DC 15)
Description: Mysterious three-headed dog, perhaps related to Cerberus (or even a manifestation of him).
Sign: Voice becomes gravelly.
Influence: Love to hear yourself talk. Whenever presented with a pulpit, stage, etc, must take the opportunity to speak. Must mock or shout down those who try to take over the discourse.
Special requirements: Must have 4 ranks in Bluff, Knowledge, or Profession
Granted abilities: Disguise Self (at will, as spell), Faster Ability Healing (heal ability score damage/drain quickly), Naberius’s Skills (use a few restricted skills untrained), Persuasive Words* (as Command spell), Silver Tongue (rushed Diplomacy takes no penalty, can take 10 on Bluff and Diplomacy)
* Ronove (DC 15)
Description: Ancient aesthetic who founded a monastic order.
Sign: Always frowning (successful binding) or smiling (unsuccessful binding).
Influence: Filled with self-doubt, and need to prove yourself. Cannot eat or drink.
Special requirements: Seal must be drawn in soil under the sky.
Granted abilities: Cold Iron and Magic Attacks (cold iron at EBL 7+), Far Hand* (swift action Mage Hand, 10'/EBL, Str 1/EBL, counts as medium), Feather Fall, Ronove’s Fists (damage as a monk), Sprint (+10' to speed)
* Dahlver-Nar (DC 17)
Description: A human binder who was driven mad by using the teeth of vestiges as his own.
Sign: Small teeth grow from scalp. Can be hidden by long hair or a hat.
Influence: Switch back and forth from very focused to distracted. Can't do tasks that require more than 1 round of concentration.
Granted abilities: Mad Soul (immune to insanity, confusion, madness, and wisdom damage/drain), Maddening Moan* (Will negates 30' area effect, dazes for 1 round), Natural Armor (1/2 Con mod), Shield Self (like Shield Other, but reversed, Will negates)
* Haagenti (DC 17)
Description: Ancient hill giant sorceress and mother of all minotaurs.
Sign: Become uglier in subtle ways.
Influence: Must show deference and respect to creatures more attractive or beautiful than yourself.
Special requirement: Must be large or speak giant.
Granted abilities: Confusing Touch* (Will resists, duration 1 rnd/3 EBLs), Immunity to Transformation (can revert to natural form as free action), Shield Proficiency (all), Weapon Proficiency (already have these)
* Malphas (DC 15)
Description: Ancient scheming elven noble, who fell in love with and was deceived and betrayed by a disguised drow.
Sign: Tonge and teeth turn black.
Influence: Fall in love too easily, must use poison against foes if available.
Granted Abilities: Bird’s Eye Viewing (summon a dove or raven that you can see through), Invisibility* (full round action, lasts 1 rnd/EBL), Poison Use, Sudden Strike (1d6 + 1d6/4 EBLs to targets denied Dex)
* Savnok (DC 20)
Description: Servant of Heironeous and Hextor, before they had become enemies. Stole their mother's armor, and was slain by the twin gods.
Sign: A piece of broken arrow forms under your skin.
Influence: Become stubborn, and cannot remove items that improve AC.
Special requirement: Must have stolen something without apologizing or making reparations.
Granted abilities: Call Armor (summoned full plate improves as you level), Heavy Armor Proficiency, Move Ally*(like Benign Translocation, or whatever it's called, 5'/2 EBLs, Std action), Savnok’s Armor (DR 1/piercing, improves with levels)
Character background: Spoiler: Show
Herger was raised by his mother, a hedge witch who lived in exile in a dangerous wilderness between Rasheman and Halruaa. Initially a Hathran, she fell in love with a Halruuan diplomat during negotiations she was sent to oversee. She began to spy for the empire, but her treacherous nature was eventually uncovered, and she fled from civilized lands in fear for her life. Pregnant and alone in a dangerous wilderness, she had to make peace with the forest spirits and giants that were a constant threat by offering her knowledge and sorcery to them in exchange for freedom for her and her son. Herger learned some of the ways of the giants and how to survive on his own in the wilderness as well. The giants grew to like Herger, treating him like a pet, and he became fluent in their tongue, learning much of their lore. Through them, he learned of many spirits that are trapped outside the realms of both the living and the dead, and that hunger even for glimpses of the world. He has learned to bind these spirits to himself , allowing them to experience the world through him in exchange for access to a fragment of their power.
His mother, in her older years, realized the folly of her crimes. Feeling guilty for what she'd done, she tried to pass on all of her diplomatic knowledge and skills to her son, in hopes that some day he could forge a peace between the two warring nations. She taught him to speak without an accent in either the Rashemi or Halruaan tongue, of the rulers of each land, and much of diplomacy, which his supernatural powers enhance greatly. Publicly, he denies his duel heritage (Halruuan/Rashemi), and never reveals the identity of his mother in either land, for fear of being judged for her crimes. Despite their superstitious prejudices, he prefers the Rashemi to the Imperials, admiring their forthrightness and general honorableness, even though he himself acts less than honorably sometimes. He tries to do what he can to aid their cause in times of conflict, but is not particularly brave. He is still young and has questionable scruples, but as he grows older and hopefully wiser, that may change and he may yet grow into the diplomatic leader that his mother hoped for.
Expel Vestige isn't all that necessary, I've found, for quite a while (its just better to plan for the one vestige you've got; Malphus for normal days and Naberius for city-type days). I'd stay ranged for a while if I were you.
OK, so I've been taking a look again at Epic Binders, and am thinking about really high-powered games. Mainly, I'm considering the Epic Vestiges, which all require lots of ranks in Knowledges (History is the most common).
So, I know that Dragonwrought Kobolds can qualify for Epic feats due to the Draconomicon stuff, but I was wondering if there were some Shapechange forms that get epic levels of Knowledge: History for this.
If I could get one, then using a Dragonwrought Kobold Binder / Sorcerer / Anima Mage build with Bloodline levels using Persistant Shapechange might be able to get at least one of the epic vestiges.
Anybody have an idea?
It is really freakin' hard to get max ranks higher than HD + 3. I know you can exceed it by 1 (via an apprentice feat or something), but I don't know how to go higher than that.... well barring getting permanent extra hid dice via Shapechanging into a Barghest and using their feed ability, but you've really gone to crazy town if you start doing stuff like that, IMO. :P
You have to go all the way back to Alter Self.
Hey all, first time post.
I'm planning on a playing a binder.(Wow saywaffletime! your serious, posting on the binder handbook.)
anyways, the party is lvl 9 and I was thinking a human, but... I don't really know what to play.
I've tried 2 builds in some tests in my party last week.
Amon, Dantalion. max,empower,linger breath..and was one shotted by a giant
2nd time. Chup, Ronove. Wow saywaffletime you get suggested to kill the cleric during your shift and your dealing 2d10 d4 +9.. you suck! can't even kill a cleric jeez!
anyways I digress, I think I'll try a paimon based binder, but what vestige synergizes with paimon? also what good magic gear (36k no item more then 9k)
good base stats? no stat above 18, 32 point buy.
Thanks in advance for any help:D
Phrenic Whispergnome (w/ LA Buyoff)
Sorcerer 2 / Binder 1 / Anima Mage 9 / Druid 1 (Shapeshift Variant) / Geomancer 7
1 Magic in the Blood, f: Versatile Spellcaster, f: Extend Spell
3 Improved Binding
6 Persistant Spell
9 Heighten Spell
12 Power Attack
15 Imp. Bull Rush
18 Leap Attack
Crazy SLAs (29 / day). Lots of DD and utility in the list (plus, Fission!!1!).
L18 Sorcerous Spellcasting. BAB +crap.
Comely as a Dryad (+4 Diplomacy)
Skin of the Octapus (+4 Hide)
Toes of a Lion (rake attack d4)
Deer Antlers (gore d6)
Grab like a Bear (Improved Grab)
Chupoclops (bite attack and pounce)
Persistant and Long-term Spells
Dragon Breath (b/c I'm silly :P)
Bite of the Werebear
Greater Mirror Image
Heroics (Extended) - Shocktrooper
bite (2 of them)
iterative unarmed strikes (using skillful gauntlets to get 3 attacks off of it)
(ie, 3 iterative attacks plus 4 nattie attacks plus rake and imp grab and a breath weapon)
Use fission to make two of you three times per day, to make that 14 attacks per round (when you charge), double the number of dragon breath attacks, double the number of ethereal jaunts, etc.
Anti-Caster build (ported from BG boards)
Karsite (LA Buyoff, otherwise use a human)
Barbarian 1 (Lion Totem variant) / Fighter 1 / Binder 12 / Knight of Sacred Seal 5 (Karsus) / minor Bloodline 1
1,b Extra Rage, Instantaneous Rage
2b Weapon Focus: Anything
3 Intimidating Rage
6 Imperious Command
7b Improved Binding
9 Power Attack
12 Improved Bull Rush
18 Leap Attack
19b Expel Vestige
EBL: 20 (4 vestiges)
Saves: F 15 R 5 W 9
3 Pact Augmentations
Immunity to Fear
- Using Dispelling Touch to dispel buffs (should be around 50%, though it could be less) or ring of freedom for a few rounds
- Also used for a wand of heroics for Shocktrooper
- Also used for staffs of varying utility (Dimensional Lock is a good one)
- Also used to detect magic auras
- Also used for Alter Self cheese for Dwarven Ancestor, if necessary
- Uses grappling from Zagan to grapple the caster after debuffing them
- Also, Aversion to try to deter any minions that are about
- To become immune to divination via Mindblank
- To be able to get your own monsters to counter the others, and/or to be a target for the Wizards potent stuff first
So, I don't by any means think that this could really stand a chance against a Theoretical Optimization Wizard, or even an extremely paranoid one (although it seems to be able to do much better than I ever expected over on BG). Instead, this is just a build, without too much cheese, to work against general spellcasters.
It can beat Celerity, in most cases, but the general consensus is that it cannot beat Celerity if Mindblank is running or some other way to make the caster immune to fear or [mind] effects. It WILL go first, no matter what, against anything not immune to fear or [mind] if it wants to use a Rage.
The most important equipment includes a Belt of Battle as well as staffs to counter specific spell combos the wizard might have running. Antimagic Field in a staff could be... interesting...
The biggest issue with getting around the TO wizard is contingency. If anyone has a practical way to do that, please let me know. Here's what we've discussed:
Sunder the Focus Item: The problem is that since magic auras eminate, the caster only needs to keep it covered up, and we won't see it.
Antimagic Field: The problem there is that although not clear in the spell description, there could be a contingency "if I'm ever about to be put into an AMF, then..." etc. I don't know how this would work out in a real game, but it does seem silly to have the contingency go off when nobody is aware of the AMF approaching. But, whatever.
MDJ: Again, same issue as AMF.
Also, I need a method to get past Mindblank or Foresight for the TO wizard. Again, here's the discussion:
So, it seems that Mindblank and Foresight cannot both be operating... Mindblank prevents divination which Foresight gives. But the effects can be duplicated, regardless.So, if there's any items for these last two issues that are fool-proof, I'd be much obliged!
The build needs a way to get past "cannot be flat-footed" effects. Current thinking is that the easiest way for an enemy to get this is by using a Cunning Legacy Weapon (as I understand it).
With the Legacy Weapon, Mindblank can be operating. Mindblank (its presumed) prevents Imperious Commandage from working. Alternatively, an Undead caster could also prevent Imperious Commandage (being immune to fear). I don't believe being immune to [mind] actually works, but I seem to be the minority in that regard.
Any plan against dire tortoise? Can't he be a dire tortoise himself?
You always ignore your own SR, including spells from magic items that consider "you" as the caster. Also, as someone pointed out in the BG thread, the wizard (or binder) only needs to be in dire tortoise form at the beginning of his turn. He can then change into something else as a free action and finish his actions.
There are other ways to never be flat-footed besides Foresight and being a dire tortoise. You can also be a minotaur, and I think there is also some Dragon Mark in one of the Eberron books that makes you never flat-footed. There is also a feat in the Fiendish Codex 2, but you have to either be a devil, or do a favor for Dispater, the lord of the 2nd layer of Hell. :D
You don't use dire tortoise to avoid being flat-footed. That part's easy. You use it for the free surprise round.
I'm still not sure what you actually do to hurt the wizard, even if you can get to him.
You beat Doctor Strange on initiative (since you're both in dire tortoise form). Okay, now what? He mumbles the name of some ancient magician and one of his Contingencies goes off.
You use a Contingency.
He mumbles another word.
What ever happens?
Just throw out Craft Contingent Spell. Or assume they both have 20 (or 40, or whatever the hell the limit is) of them, and they all basically counteract each other. The end. Now what?
The wizard has no advantage when it comes to those, because they're magic items, and the binder can have the same number of them, with exactly the same effects, if he's willing to dish out the cash to pay someone to craft them.
So I think it's better to just ignore that that feat even exists, for these kinds of thought exercises.
Hrm, good point on that. Personally, I'd rather they stay in, as it sucks up resources from the Wizard (and the Binder, all contingencies out, is more or less equipment independent - I think - I haven't done the math on high-end Wizards in a long time).
Using Astaroth, the Binder can make anything the Wizard makes (although it does cost the Binder a bit more - they can't provide spells).
EDIT: NM on that; Scribe Scroll and Craft Contingent Spell require the maker to know it to make it, so nix those two.
OK, this seems like a must-have for binder fans that can use 3rd party material... Over on the Paizo boards I was searching for the "Knight of the Green Lady" PrC, which was mislinked in the first post (actually, it just got archived at some point), and I cam across a discussion about a few .pdfs they are selling over there. Well, I couldn't get a clear idea about the material from the reviews or description, but the title was promising. I figured that since I hadn't purchased a DnD product since 4e came out, nor video games, nor movies, nor anything, I'd give it a shot. Low-and-behold:
Secrets of Pact Magic - has over 100 new vestiges, has tons of feats (>30 non-racial feats), specifics of a few races that are inclined to pact-making, new PrCs, new items, more than 300 pages, and only $13. From the portions I've looked through, nothing seems ridiculously broken from it, unlike a lot of 3rd party material. The vestiges are formatted a bit weirdly; there's something called "capstone ability" and "favored enemies", which I have to find out more on, but the other stuff in a normal vestige description is all there. EDIT: Ah, so you gain the Capstone ability when you succeed on your binding check by 10 or more.
Villains of Pact Magic - I haven't gone through this yet, but it was only $10, so I'll update when I can.
You are certainly talking about books from http://www.pactmagic.com/? I know this site, it even has it's own binding intro But their vestiges are a little bit different then vestiges made by WotC. In addition to all weird things pointed by you, these vestiges have also alternative features - when you bind them, you can choose which abilities you prefer.
Where did you find "Knight of the Green Lady" PrC? Do you mean "Apostle of the Green Lady"?
Well, I got DM approval for this character:
Magic in the Blood Phrenic Binder, boo-yah! Show
(1 LA bought off) xp23541
Str 13 (-2 racial), Dex 18 (+2 racial), Con 16 (+2 racial), Int 18 (+2 racial), Wis 14 (+2 racial), Cha 22 (+2 racial, +1 level 4, +2 enhancement)
Saves: F 8, R 6, W 7
AC: (+1 Size, +4 Dex)
Luck Points: 5
Skills <-NOT PICKED YET; THESE ARE JUST RACIAL BONUSES
Hide +8, Spot +2, Listen +2, Move Silently +4
Magic in the Blood (Player’s Guide to Faerun), Spirit Imp (Secrets of Pact Magic), Improved Binding (Tome of Magic), Extra Known Ability (Secrets of Pact Magic), Suppress Sign (Tome of Magic)
+1 to hit Kobolds and Goblinoids
+4 AC vs Giants
Low-light Vision, Darkvision 60’
Power Resistance 10 + HD
Racial Spell-Like Abilities
(at CL = HD, maximum enhancement possible for “*”
3 / 3 Silence (self-only)
3 / 3 Ghost Sound
3 / 3 Mage Hand
3 / 3 Message
3 / 3 Defensive Precognition*
3 / 3 Force Screen*
3 / 3 Empty Mind*
3 / 3 Mind Thrust*
3 / 3 Body Adjustment*
3 / 3 Brain Lock*
Soulbinding 1 vestige, up to 4th level
2 Pact Augmentations
2 Bonus Feats (picked)
Soul Guardian (Immunity to Fear)
There are a TON of house rules, but here's the significant ones:
House Rules Show
All racial SLAs advance to maximum ability (as Phrenic's do)I'm 6th level (but w/ ECL 7 cash, since I bought off 1 LA). 19000 gp. I want a cloak of charisma +2, but then what?
Crits are different (basically, multiply the crit range times the excess that you hit by, and thats the percentage to crit; "super crits" can happen; fumbles can happen, and can crit as well) <-This is the reason I want to get out of melee type combat...
Psionics and Magic are NOT transparent at all. (I think this favors me with these abilities)
We're in Athkatla, so magic is rare.
Faerun game. 3.5, both WotC and 3rd party material is allowed, and I've gotten the Secrets of Pact Magic spirits and feats OK'd (though the DM still has final say about it).
Cheese factor is high. The DM is running a DMM: Persistant melee Cleric, now, and I'd only anticipate infinite or NI loops to be banned.
Lots of other house rules, but they don't have a consolidated list, and they tend to tell me as they come up >.
I just recently got this book, but from what I have seen so far, it is awesome! Thanks for this guide.
So if someone, starting at 1st level, wanted to primarily follow the path of direct damage what vestige should be chosen as the patron vestige for KotSS? Amon, Balam, Geryon or Orthos? What level should he start taking the prestige class?
I like Amon for pure blasting at low level, and Orthos at high. RAW, you should be able to use the metabreath feats with it.
Yeah that sounds about right, although Amon seems like it would do some damage at high levels as well. But which would you suggest for the Patron Vestige? And when would you suggest taking KotSS? As soon as it is available to get the armor/weapon proficiencies or once Balam and Geryon are available? Once sixth level vestiges are available? Or around 16th level for Orthos?
I dunno. Depends on yer role, I guess.
1/day reuse a 1/5 ability, I've found, isn't really that great. So, take it for the proficiencies, the DR, the outsider type, and the +Cha to allies 1/5 rounds earlier than 15th. DO NOT forget to use those abilities - they're kick arse.
That said, there's three vestiges which I find particularly attractive that could be bound everyday with nothing lost:
Chupoclops (etherealness, pounce, secondary attack, debuff aura, always useful)
Haures (Mindblank, PK, Major Image, and ability to go wherever you want on a combat map)
Zcerryl (Summons, Pseudonatural template - which grants DR, daze attacks, the MINDSIGHT FEAT!!!, strongest vestige out there)
The following are decent choices, since you could fit your entire build around them:
Paimon (for +dex to damage / hit type builds, and the dance of death is freakin' awesome)
Savnok (mainly if tanking)
Malphus / Marchovias (focusing on stealth)
Naberius (diplomancers only)
The following I think are weaker choices, as they are kind of hard to develop an entire build around:
Balam (lack of "definition" with this vestige, though it is great)
Amon / Orthos (the direct damage is great, but the rest of the abilities don't benefit enough from them; displacement comes in so late it may not be more effective than Otiax)
Acerak / Tenebrous / Buer (the Cleric should cover these)
Ronove (just pretty mediocre 1/5 abilities, and they aren't universally useful)
Otiax (great secondary vestige, but primary patron it kind of stinks)
I freakin' love Balam on my Ur-Priest/Anima Mage. I can cover just about everything with my spellcasting that the other vestiges offer (and that I want), but that 1/5 reroll is just awesome. If you have great saves (he has), it basically means you get to reroll the 1s that you fail on.
He can't bind Chupoclops yet. Once he can, Balam might have some competition.
I'll second the recommendation for Chupoclops, my favorite - it has a bunch of very versatile abilities.
I've never played with Zceryll but it's obviously strong.
Haures is nice, but I'd put him behind those two.
When it comes to vestiges, it's always safe to follow jwm's wisdom. :D
That is insane.
So I'm thinking I might just go for Savnok, allowing me to take the prestige class at 6th I think unless I wait until 9th so I will have two seperate vestiges bound, giving me a somewhat decent armor class without needing to buy any magical armor. It does mean that I will always be behind 1 vestige as far as the direct damage combo, and will never be able to bind Amon+Balam+Geryon+Orthos, and when I finally do get dual binding I won't be able to combine Balam and Geryon.
I assume Geryon, and Focalor, would also be weak choices?
Yes, that is a good assumption.
Focalor is particularly campaign specific - water campaigns, only (it does excel at that, though). Geryon is just subpar - fly speed is just thrown in there for the heck of it.
Aiming for this isn't a bad strategy - Amon + Orthos + Balam + Savnok. Also, you might find yourself switching Amon or Orthos for Karsus, for using staves at EBL (for example, Polar Ray), can be wicked good.
I realize this thread isn't quite as active as it used to be. Still, I only recently got a chance to play my binder for real. So. Thoughts abound!
Anyway, I'm slowly but steadily approaching the time where I have to introduce my GM to my favourite vestige: Zceryll.
We're not playing a particular high-powered campaign and, to be frank, some of the granted powers of Zceryll are just plain ridiculous. Still, I love the Cthulhu mythos feel, and I really dig her sign. Something to really fuel my character's building paranoia. So, rather than just skipping her, I'm hoping to offer some constructrive fix suggestions to my GM.
Alien Form: This is probably one of the main issues. Everything granted by the pseudonatural template is just way too much. I think it needs to be either replaced with something else, nerfed into the ground, or just plain dropped from the list of granted powers. Not quite sure what to do about it yet though.
Summon Alien: As has been discussed at length, the issue with Summon Alien isn't so much the combat potential as the out-of-combat potential. To fix this, I'd suggest three changes/clarifications: 1) Only pseudonatural creatures can be summoned. 2) Change the prerequisites of the pseudonatural template to disallow outsiders (and possibly elementals). 3) The pseudonatural template replaces, rather than stacks with, any template of the native creature (so no pseudonatural celestial badgers). I might make chaos beasts an exception to these rules because they're so iconic.
That should take care of the excessive number of (unlimited) SLAs at higher level, while still letting you summon tentacle monsters to kill stuff.
Telepathy: I've seen some people rave over the Mindblank feat. I've read the description a few times but I'm not sure what the big deal is. I might not see it through the proper optimization glasses though. Am I missing something about it?
Ultimately, I want Zceryll to remain a useful 6th level binding, but reducing her granted powers to a level where she's comparable to other vestiges, and not risk giving my GM a stroke. I think the proposed changes to Summon Alien are significant, without being crippling. Does anyone have any feedback on this?
Also, wondering what to do about the Alien Form. Might end up just dropping it (four granted powers is pretty baseline) if I can't think of anything apropriate to replace it with.
I might try that. Just don't want to give the GM a heart attack.
Pardon the bump, but I was curious about the Green Lady and I figured this would be a good place to ask. If I chose Nerveskitter for Gift of Magic, would I still be able to use it normally or would it be different somehow because it would be a supernatural ability? I'd imagine I'd still be able to use it normally, but some clarification on the issue would be appreciated.
As far as i'm aware, supernatural abilities don't have any special rules (on casting time, for example) that would prevent the use Nerveskitter. Why do you doubt if you can use it normally?
Just curious about the casting time is all. Thought perhaps since most binder abilities are standard actions to use unless it mentions otherwise or something, it could affect Nerveskitter's casting time somehow, making it a standard action instead of an immediate action possibly.
IMHO, Spells like Nerveskitter, or Feather Fall, should work normally. I wouldn't rule a small subset of 1st level spells useless choices, without any specific mention of it.
I thought as much, just wanted to get some other peoples opinions on the matter, thanks.
Question on Paimon's Dance of Death: You get an attack against every opponent you "move past". Normally this would be against anyone in an adjacent square. But what if (A) you wield a reach weapon (e.g., Spiked Chain), or have reach from other effect (size large, for instance)? Can you attack everyone within 10' of your movement path?
Sadly, the answer to that is "ask your DM" (or if you're the DM, "make a ruling"), because "moving past" is defined nowhere and can be interpreted both ways.
Personally I'd allow it: it's only available once or twice per encounter anyway.
[Otiax] for 10' reach air blasts touch attacks + Mageslayer feat to automatically cancel defensive casting within threatened reach.
Casters can no longer take a 5 foot away from you to cast a spell without interference.
[Otiax] + [Paimon] to get a 24 Square whirlwind attack (x8 adjacent and x16 at 10 foot range), all touch attacks.
Use dance of death, and run 10 feet away from ppl as to not take AoO. Make attacks using dance of death against everyone within 10 feet of your path (which can be much more than if you were only attacking adjacent targets)
Add Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense feats for even more damage.
5[Otiax] + 4[Tenebrous]
Req lvl 8 with improved bind feat
The flicker shadow mastery Tenebrous grants lets you make an immediate move action teleport, so you could teleport into a good spot to use Otiax's combat reflexes when enemies move and hit them from 10' away with airblasts (you threaten 24 squares)
Tenebrous deeper darkness could allow you to hide using the concealment to catch foes with attacks of opportunity they wouldn't have prevoked, and maybe make use of some extra via combat reflexes
As mentioned in several above posts, Tenebrous's touch of the void can charge your Otiax air blasts with cold damage
At level 8 you could also control eight 1HD undead via Tenebrous's rebuke (if neutral or evil) then have then surround you and use your air blast from behind your undead wall! :D
I'm starting a binder in what most likely become an undead based, heavy roleplaying campaign. This is my planned build, partially inspired by the exellent material above! Only 4 of 7 (yes 7) players have picked their classes so far: Knight, Cleric, Paladin, Binder (me)
The plan is to be a social animal using Naberius to start off. Without expel vestige I think I'll stick to a social role so I can be creative with my actions rather than just have a breath weapon and a charge from summoning Amon etc. I want to try using the 'approach' command to pull an enemy through my allies threatened squares, and of course combat bluffs!
Depending on how well our cleric can heal (he's probably going the Touch of Healing / Sacred Healing route for non-spell healing to the max) I might spend some time with Buer while dungeon delving to keep us going all day long
As I gain levels and feats I shift into a capable combatant, esp lvl 8 and after once I can have Otiax up all the time (I wonder how his influence will play out with the need to use keys...)
1-15 Binder, 16-20 Knight of the Sacred Seal (patron vestige Otiax)
1st (level) Combat Expertise
1st (human) Improved Binding
3rd (level) Deadly Defense
4th (binder) Expel Vestige
6th (level) Mageslayer
9th (level) Power Attack (or Improved Initative)
11th (binder) Supernatural Crusader
12th (level) Supernatural Opportunist
15th (level) Weapon Focus (melee touch attack)
18th (level) Improved Critical (melee touch attack)
Deadly defense's extra 1d6 while combat expertise is up for +2 dodge AC isn't precision damage so it damages undead and constructs just fine (unlike sneak attack, skirmish, sudden strike and criticals)
Mageslayer cancels defensive casting (with Otiax up it affects 24 squares; also prevents adjacent casters from being able to 5foot step away and cast as I posted above), and the penalty from taking the feat doesn't affect your supernatural abilities
It has yet to be determined if power attack can be added to Otiax's touch attacks in our game. All it says is you don't add strength bonus, though you do get extra damage from power attack with a two handed weapons which implies strength is a factor. If it cannot, I will likely take improved initative.
Supernatural Crusader / Opportunist is to solidify my ability to disrupt. I should be getting good use out of my four 10' reach attacks of opporinity with opprtunist and mageslayer.
Weapon focus (to qualify for KotSS) would normally be better eailer but at the moment I'm not sure how the campaign will turn out, I'd rather take the feat right before I take the class (perfect timing really at lvl 15)
Improved critical on melee touch attack is borrowed from an above post. Since I'll have Otiax up at all times after lvl 8 pretty much it makes sense to be better with my supernatural weapon
This is my character's history, partially inspired by HP lovecraft :D
Name: Nodem Deitsuro
I grew up in a small city who's name matters little now. My father, Nabal, was a scholar and mother, Jera, a nurse. I had two younger sisters, Serena, and Holly. We were raised to respect the church, but not subscribe to it. Father always said the Gods had their place, but there was more in the universe and to keep an open mind. Knowledge was his religion.
Father studied all manner of subjects from plants and animals to to noble families to the planes. As the oldest and only son I was encouraged to learn my fathers profession, but growing up I didn't think much of father's studies. The lessons that interested me most were about people; it seemed dull and boring to sit in a candlelit room when you could learn much by traversing the streets and having others feed you information. I couldn't have guessed the true nature of my father's research.
I attended a modest school at my parents mandate. Shortly after completing it I was able to secure a position as a librarian at a prestigious library, thanks to my father's connections. Though I was a functional librarian, what really interested me was the people. Scholars and wizards would frequent the library to research various subjects, and I gleaned what I could from them. The right exchange of words, genuine or not, can land you as much knowledge as any tome.
Several years passed and I met a woman named Tolia. She was the daughter of a merchant family that had recently moved to the area. We could talk to for hours about anything and everything. A year later we were married, and the next my daughter, Sonia, was born. Life was perfect.
Year of the Half:
Sonia was two years old on that summer night that will forever remain burned into my soul. The library was unusually busy when it happened. Being on a ladder re shelving books when the fifteen people dropped dead, I saw most of them fall. Those not affected mostly ran, not wanting to contract whatever hideous affliction they thought the dead had suffered from. The smell of smoke filled the air, as some had been carrying a candles when they fell and several fires busied those that hadn't fled.
When the fires were out and there was a quiet moment in the library, the true horroric scope of the event dawned on us as heard outside. The citywide wail of crying and screaming felt tangibly cold. It took me a full minute for me to budge from where I stood. Gathering my resolve I ventured out to a sanity fraying collage of death, anguish and chaos.
The once orderly city had transformed into a virtual hell in an instant. Smoke lit with the orange glow of burning buildings filled the night sky, and bodies of every denomination filled the streets. The wailing coming from every direction drowned my thoughts as I raced through the streets home. If I'd been thinking clearly I might have prepared myself.
Dread filled my stomach as I returned home ungreeted to the smell of burning bread. Bolting to the kitchen I found my unbearable suspicions confirmed; Tolia and Sonia lay unnaturally sprawled on the floor, their open eyes staring up at me. Words cannot capture it. Holly and my mother were also taken that night.
* * *
The weeks following the event were filled with grief and fear. It took over a week to remove all the bodies from the streets and houses. The smell was indescribable. Initially there was much debate over what could have caused such a thing to happen. Some cursed the gods, where others prayed to them. News of a curse upon the land and the nature of its origin eventually circulated to the city. The death and carnage was widespread, indiscriminately killing half the worlds population.
My father and my other sister had also survived, and we now lived together in our securely fortified house. The law, though not totally absent, was significantly reduced, which didn't go unnoticed. There was looting and rioting at all hours of the day and night and people lived in fear of everything.
It was during these dark weeks that Father shared the true nature of his obsessive research. He told of beings of great power outside the planes as they can be understood, their power beyond the reach of even the gods. I became obsessed myself, spending every spare moment reading and re reading dusty old tomes. I discovered that it was possible to draw power from these beings if certain rituals were undergone. Not wanting to risk his family, my father had never performed any; his interest in the vestiges was, until then, an academic one. With the world sinking into darkness however, there was more to gain than to lose.
The first time we performed a ritual did not go as expected. He had instructed us that if something were to happen, we were to lock him in the basement til the same time tomorrow. Serena was reluctant to observe, but our enthusiasm towards the endeavor was enough to peak hers as well. We descended into the wooden stairs, massive volumes and candlesticks filling our arms. I remember the feeling of dread and anticipation as our shadows flickered in the candle light.
Father traced a sigil one the cold stone floor of the basement with charcoal, and called into the darkness. Several breathless moments passed, and for an instant I doubted the powers my father spoke of. Without warning there was a burst of black smoke emanating from the seal, and a grotesque figure appeared. A black dog with a ram's head and a serpent's tail began shouting foul obscenities at father, but took no notice of Serena or myself. Father was taken back by the hateful stream of curses as much as by the demonic-looking being in front of him. He managed to utter a few words in between the ram-headed wolf's curses, but didn't seem to satisfy the being as it disappeared after one final barrage of insults.
I had been watching the manifestation with a fixed, unblinking stare while it has been yelling at father so at first I did not see the cause for Serena's soul-wrenching scream. Instinctively turning my gaze to Serena, I saw her face twisted in horror as she looked upon our father. He had been kneeling away from us before the seal, but now was turning towards the us. On top of the angry glare that sent icicles through my blood were two curled, black horns sprouting from his forehead. I had read about visual signs associated with the vestige rituals, and now saw them before me.
My first encounter with 'AMON, the Void Before the Altar' crystallized my will to summon them myself. Father had been able to see plainly in pitch darkness when he voluntarily stayed the night in the basement in case someone had come by and might have seen his demonic appearance. Serena and I also had to put out a fire coming up through the floor when father had belched up a torrent of flames. My father had been right not to dabble with such powerful forces before. When everything was perfect, when Tolia, and Sonia, and Mother, and Holly, and half of the rest of the world were alive and happy. But now, with our deaths hanging over us, I decided that the vestiges were my salvation.
We decided that a more secluded environment would be appropriate. Father was not ignorant to the Planes or to demonic entities and knew the vestiges were not dark gods or demons, but those commoners and religious figures lucky enough not to have been slain outright the summer previous we're not so enlightened. Moving to an abandoned cabin in the woods whose previous occupants we gave a modest burial, we began more experimentation into the supernatural.
Year of the Quarter:
By the time of the second division, I had contacted half a dozen vestiges. Many of the physical signs that manifested with the binding process made contacting the outside world impossible without risk of immolation at the hands of the remaining religious leadership.
Binding with 'NABERIUS, The Grinning Hound' however, made contact not only possible to achieve, but impossible to resist. Naberius gave me a silver tongue and knowledge of things I never learned. Binding with him let me influence others, and take on any form. I started coughing even when not bound should anyone inquire about my gravelly, growling voice.
The ever dwindling population of the area adopted a survivalist lifestyle. The few shops that remained open for business had either had limited supplies, or was charging an unreasonable amount for them. Naberius's silver tongue served me well dealing with the lingering remnants of once flourishing populace. The city I once knew was now a ghost town, and there was little joy to be seen it. I learned much that year about the rest of the world talking to the travelers still brave enough to be on the roads.
Year of the Eighth:
Another summer solstice culls the population. This year markedly quieter than I can't help but remember the first being. People became numbed to death and loss. A desire to leave the area grew inside of me. I was alone in this desire however, and family connections kept me from pursuing my ambition.
I routinely contacted over a dozen vestiges over this year, and learned the wide range of abilities and effects the bindings had. Father's experience with Amon had ruined binding for himself, but he provided a constant to Serena and I as we delved endlessly into the realm of the supernatural.
Year of the Sixteenth:
Father was not among the sixteenth of the population left alive this summer. Serena and I decided to travel in search of opportunity, and left our now almost abandoned city behind. Though I was not particular about my company or surroundings having spend many years among scoundrels learning about human nature, she was of a more refined pallet and yearned for previous life.
She became settled into a respectable house we bought, and I saw her wanderlust flicker and wane. She began dealing in antiquities, and had much invested in worldly possessions. My concern lie in the intangible however.
As rich as the city live could be, it put limits on my research. I couldn't attract attention from the more and more centralized population, and there was only so much knowledge available in one area. With so many watchful eyes, and so much unclaimed knowledge out in the world for the taking, I only remained in the city to ensure Serena's well being.
Year of the Thirty Second:
Cultures of rituals and superstitions swept the populace at the dawn of the solstice; some celebrated while some prayed. Despite Serena's bond with 'DAHLVER-NAR, The Tortured One', and her attempt to pass any ill-effect to a heavily intoxicated admirer, she met her unnatural death that summer. Once again the city undertook it's morbid downsizing, but I no longer counted myself among the civilized world.
Wanderlust burned in my soul and I no longer had any mortal attachments. The time to achieve my potential had come...
Yeah, I actually just read that a minute ago and corrected it. Too bad, but it's still useful to give your party a 20% miss chance.
We played our first game after another cleric joined our party (both clerics took the reach spell metamagic feat and are planning on taking divine metamagic for some bizare reason.................)
I decided to change from using Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense because I can't benefit from the extra 1d6 or dodge bonus unless I use my action to make a melee attack; a lot of the time I will be readying an action or using a vestige ability.
Our group now:
Cleric of Morhiem(dwarf)
Cleric of Palor (human)
Paladin of Tyr (human)
I changed my starting feat to Able Learner so I can pick up UMD, Tumble, Spellcraft and eventually one in every knowledge skill for DANTALION's +8 to all knowledges ability. UMD using charisma is beautiful synergy. I have a +3 Int mod so I get a decent amount of skills even with only 2 base (6 per level total with my human trait). I'll keep my social skills respectable which shouldn't be hard since I can't have my CC skills higher than 3 ranks atm, and I can only raise them every other level. I can also bump up spot/listen/etc if I end up with spare points later without paying 2 per point (my wisdom mod is +1 so I'm quite oblivious to danger at the moment).
Instead of Deadly Defense at 3rd (which I gained at the end of the session) I took Blind-Fight to be immune to sneak attacks based on concealment and to get a +5 AC (+3 dex which I retain and attack doesn't get +2 for being invisble) against them. Changing those two feats reduces my over all damage output in melee a bit, but it expands my role and gives me some security. ANDROMALIUS can give me sneak atttack to up my damage if needed; later TENEBROUS to charge attacks with cold damage.
Our campaign is going to be overrun by undead and we have 3 sources of turn undead in the party, so when the times comes to bind TENEBROUS I'm going to choose rebuking.
We lack arcane magic so me being able to use scrolls, wands, etc adds a huge amount of utility later on when I can consistantly use them. KARSUS only lets you use spell trigger items (so not scrolls); having the ability to use more magic items improves his abilty that ups their DCs though. It should serve to balance out the vestige choices I make for the day by having scrolls and wands in contingency for when I'm not bound to the appropriate vestige. At lvl 7 when I can get my Spellcraft and UMD to 5 and get +4 on my UMD check to use scrolls from synergy bonuses I'll have a +13 [65% chance of casting 1st level scrolls, 55% chance of casting a 2nd level scrolls (Casterlevel 3)].
You require 5 ranks in certain skills to be able to summon several vestiges. I compared them and it seems like the best way for me to go is 5 Knowledge(Arcane) (for +2 to spellcraft and to satisfy KARSUS and IPOS) and 5 ranks Knowledge(Religion) (for +2 on rebuke checks and to satisfy IPOS and GERYON). 5 ranks in Arcane also lets me use artificer's monicle with Karsus's Senses to identify items for free.
Tumble with a longspear (or reach 10' from OTIAX) is amasing during a melee. Tumble 10' back from an adjecent opponent and ready an action to attack any foe who enters a threatened square so either they come at me and I take 2 attacks (readied action plus an attack of opprtunity when they move from 10' away to adjacent) or they don't follow me. I can pull mobs out of flanking positions on my allies by moving 5feet and forcing them to move to follow me (or don't and I'll attack them with impunity). PAIMON can give me a +4 to tumble and whirlwind attack, and with 10' reach I can avoid taking attacks of opprtunity by staying at 10' during dance of death (if I need to focus on being a combatant that day).
I plan to use FOCALOR with a longspear and Tumble. If they end up adjacent they take -2 on attack rolls and saves, then I'll nuke them and tumble 10 feet away to make them move through my threatened square to attack me back. The main thing is forcing melee opponents through my 10' reach to provoke an AoO before they can attack me, or to prevent them from attacking me at all by deterrent. FOCALOR's nuke will always do some damage (barring DR) so if I'm not taking any I'll win by attrition. With FOCALOR bound another option is using a heavy shield even while not proficent for the AC bonus and just never attack normally (use a morningstar or normal spear with a -2 penatly for AoO)
1-15 Binder, 16-20 Knight of the Sacred Seal (patron vestige Orthos or Otiax)
1st (level) Able Learner
1st (human) Improved Binding
3rd (level) Blind-Fight
4th (binder) Expel Vestige
6th (level) Mageslayer
9th (level) Power Attack (or Improved Initative)
11th (binder) Supernatural Crusader
12th (level) Supernatural Opportunist
15th (level) Weapon Focus (melee touch attack)
18th (level) Improved Critical (melee touch attack)
[* = CC skills; cost one point but keep CC maxes thanks to Able Learner]
[X = maxed]
5 Knowledge(Acrane) (req for KARSUS and IPOS)
1 Knowledge(Architecture and Engineering)*
5 Knowledge(Religion) (+2 Rebuke checks with TENEBROUS, req for IPOS and GERYON)
4 Intimidate (req for Improved Binding feat)
5 Decipher Script (synergy with UMD scrolls)
5 Spellcraft* (synergy with UMD scrolls)
5 Bluff (synergy with Diplomacy and Intimidate)
5 Sense Motive (synergy with Diplomacy)
X Use Magic Device* (synergy deciphering scrolls)
X Tumble* (synergy with jump!! )
FOCALOR + BUER (nuking and healing) [L8+]
This combo is for days you expect to be fighting alot. Rewnewable nukes that don't miss will keep combats on a finite timer and with proper tactics to avoid people dying, Buer lets you heal everyone to full after the battle. You can nuke and heal all day long without slowing down to rest, allowing everyone else to be more conservative with their resources.
@L8 with 18 Cha
-4d6 Lightning damage, 80 ft range, useable every round, doesn't miss (DC 18 reflex save for 1/2)
-Blind can interfere a foe's damage for a turn buying that extra turn waiting for Buer's heal
-Fast Healing 1 combined with Aura of Sadness should help to balance out damage taken in melee
-Buer's heal (1d8+8) every 6 rounds can support main healers during combat or save them spells after combat topping everyone off to full (the Touch of Healing from CC is awesome but can only heal to 1/2 max HP)
-If your foes flee from your relentless lightning attacks you can Track them!
The one awkward thing is that the aura of sadness will be affecting friendly targets you are adjacent to while you're healing them. You can always deactivate it but it's awesome so best to try and work around it.
FOCALOR + TENEBROUS [req L8 with improved binding feat; L10 without]
@L8, 18 Charisma
-Control 8 HD worth of undead with Tenebrous and have then screen you and take AoO while you nuke from behind them with Focalor.
-Surround somone with commanded undead and blind them! :D
-Undead minions not affected by Aura of Sadness (mind-affecting)
-Hide check to coneal yourself in deeper darkness and nuke with impunity (no verbal or somatic components on supernatural abilities).
-Use the Flicker shadow mystery to teleport into a position to affect many creaures with Aura of Sadness.
-Amphibious assaults (you can breathe underwater and undead don't breathe; plus your lightning works just fine underwater, and Tenebrous lets you see in any darkness, ie. dark water)
DAHLVER-NAR + BUER [req L8]
You are a very tough character to bring down with this combo, and you can channel damage at foes without worrying about your own health.
Dehlver-nar's Shield Self allows you to share half your damage, while Buer gives you Fast Healing 1 and a 1d8+EBL(max 10) Healing Touch every 6 rounds.
This has several applications:
You could Shielf self onto a tough ally (in my case the Knight or Paladin) and let them absorb damage you would have taken that you can heal with your touch every 6 rounds. The reason you'd bind it on an ally for this purpose is to have it ready before an encounter. You could definitely try to pass it onto whatever is attacking you, but if it passes it's save you've wasted your action.
Apply Shield Self to a weak enemy then ingnore them while going after tougher ones and have the passive damage whittle them down without actions. If you are going to use Shield Self on enemies, they could pass their save and you'd have been better off attacking. Focusing on weak enemies with Shield Self will up the success rate of it sticking so you can move on to better standard actions directed at the real threats.
As mentioned in an above post somewhere, you could damage yourself with Shield Self on something that you could not normally deal damage to. For instance if there was a creature with DR 20/magic and no one had a magic weapon, you could put Shield Self on it and hold your hand over a candle, or have the fighter toss you up in the air and land on your head, etc, to deal it half of the damage you are taking that it would not have DR for. Fast Healing and Healing Touch abilities will keep you alive, and laughing afterwards when you're back at full. Granted this would take quite a while for some enemies, (unless you're gung-ho about damaging yourself and have other means of healing) but if no other means is possible or desirable it's an option.
MALPHAS + ANDOMALIUS [req L8]
-Use Invisiblity to deny DEX for their granted Sudden Strike and Sneak Attack abilities
-Use Bird to remotely see specific objects on specific people, then use Locate Object ability to track those objects, and thus the people, within 100ft per EBL
-Use Sense Trickery through the bird to get the +4 bonus to Sense Motive for purposes of assess opponent, or to guage the intentions of someone by overhearing their conversation with someone else from a safe distance; also Appraise should the need arrise (spot doesn't work through the bird cause it's based on your senses)
MALPHAS + ZAGAN [req L10 with Improved Binding; L12 without]
-Use Invisibility to get up to a caster and grapple him with your +8 (+4 from Zagan's Improved Grapple and likely +4 from being larger)
--The initial grapple round damage will inflict Sudden Strike damage (because you grappled from invisibility and they're denied their dex against your touch attack to initiate the grapple; +3d6 damage at lvl 10) as well as your constrict damage, and normal unarmed damage.
---Aversion any one around that could cause a problem while remaining grappled.
----Invisibility comes back up in 5 rounds, just enough time to Grapple, Aversion, Kill and Withdraw
1st (level) Able Learner
1st (human) Improved Binding
3rd (level) Improved Initative
4th (binder) Expel Vestige
6th (level) Mageslayer
9th (level) Power Attack [or Combat Expertise]
11th (binder) Ignore Special Requirements
12th (level) Combat Expertise [or Deadly Defense]
15th (level) Weapon Focus (melee touch attack)
18th (level) Deadly Defense [or Favoured Vestige ORTHOS]
After considering Blind-Fight I realized it won't protect me against being flat-footed from suprise. Since it's effect is less powerful than I had previously thought, I switched it out for Improved Initative which is totally solid. Also, ORTHOS gives you blindsight 30ft which would obsolete Blight-Fight anyway.
I have not broached the subject of Power Attack and OTIAX's touch with my DM yet. I believe it should because the only thing different about a touch attack is that you do not include their Armor, Shield, or Natural Armor bonuses; all other modifiers apply normally. Sacrificing attack bonus that you apply normally to your Air Blasts and adding it to damage with Power Attack is not the same as adding STR bonus to damage(which is what it specifies does not apply); it's more like attack bonus based precision damage. My logic is that a character with 13 str (+1 bonus) but with 20 BAB could do 20 extra damage based on his ability, not strength; and therefore because OTIAX's Air Blast uses your BAB normally, power attack should also work normally.
I'm going to wait on Power Attack til the level after I get OTIAX so I'll ask him then. If it does not, I'll move up Combat Expertise to 9th and Deadly Defense to 12th.
I can't resist the lure of Combat Expertise and Deadly Defense to add 33% damage to my OTIAX touch attack. Instead of taking it early like I had orginally been toying with, I added them later once I have the ability to summon Otiax and the -2 on attack rolls to qualify for Deadly Defense will mean very little, especially considering they're touch attacks.
Combat Expertise will still work fine without OTIAX bound; more defensive as it's intended to be, but I can attack with a -5 for a +5 dodge AC that could save my life while I wait for my abilties to recharge.
Ignore Special Requirements will allow me the freedom to switch to any vestige in a pinch without the inconvience of requiring a specific location (ie BUER needs to be done outside; if we're buried underground and we need healing, without the feat we're screwed). It also lets me Combine AMON with with CHUPOCLOPS (and the others who hate AMON for some unknown reason) which could be fun.
I won't always be a decent melee combatant until I can bind enough vestiges per day to dedicate a spot for Otiax. Once I become KotSS at L16 I'll have ORTHOS up all the time, and OTIAX up most of the time.
If Power Attack is ruled to not function with OTIAX, at L18 I'll take Favoured Vestige (ORTHOS) to up both DCs associated with his Whirlwind Breath ability. I'm required to keep him up to retain my supernatural abilities associated with KotSS, so upping an ability I'll be using constantly, esp since it has 2 seperate checks (Reflex and Fortitude) within it, should be good. Plus I can throw on IPOS and crank the DCs even higher.
OTIAX + PAIMON + TENEBROUS [L14]
-Charge your 10' reach touch attacks from OTIAX with cold damage from TENEBROUS and use PAIMON's Dance of Death (without provoking AoO) or Whirlwind Attack (24 squares) while adding massive cold damage (even more with Deadly Defense and/or Power Attack)
-TENEBROUS's Flicker to teleport into a prime location to do your massive Whirlwind Attack just before your turn and teleport out right after your Whirlwind Attack as an immediate action
--PAIMON's Uncanny Dodge prevents foes from gaining flanking bonues on you if you can't leave a threatened area, and his +4 Tumble will assist in tactical manuevering to get into/out of position without using Flicker
-2 different kinds of 20% miss chances from OTIAX and TENEBROUS, plus +4 Dexterity from PAIMON is good defensive coverage
ANDOMALIUS + CHUPOCLOPS [req L10 with Improved Binding; L12 without]
-Turn on Ethereal Watcher and wait for something to Pounce; charge it flat-footed (suprised) and full it attack with every hit being a Sneak Attack, including your Posion Bite!
-Ethereal Watcher and Sense Motive buff to assess opponent
-Jester's Mirth an adjacent foe with his -2 penalty to it's save to keep him in place and inactive if it survives the charge
-Jester's Mirth a fleeing foe and Pounce once you sufficiently catch up
-During combat back off and turn on Ethereal Watcher, then Pounce and have your first attack count as from invisibility and deny them their DEX to cause a Sneak Attack (not 100% sure about this but would make sense since you are appearing out of thin air)
-See the Unseen to see ethereal creaures and Ghost Touch to hit them normally
-Pounce into a flanking position and tear something up with a devastating full attack (all sneak attacks)
Add PAIMION at L14 and you can Pounce suprised foes from Ethereal Watcher and do a Whirlwind Attack on the charge that inflicts Sneak Attack damage
Add OTIAX to that at L20 (or use OTIAX / PAIMON / ANDOMALIUS at L14):
-10' reach (24 squares) whirlwind attack that inflicts Sneak Attack damage on a charge from Ethereal Watcher's invisiblity, or if you are before your fores on initative and they are flat footed
-OTIAX's 10' reach will qualify you for flanking bonuses very easily; Whirlwind Attack and hit all the flanked foes with Sneak Attack
-your 10' reach attacks of opportunity will also be inflicting Sneak Attack damage to flanked opponents
Does anybody know where I can get a copy of the epic vestiges? Everytime I look where they used to be I get nothing.
Noooooooooo! Damn, I should start saving pages from the website... Tedious, but it will be necessary sooner or later.
I hope someone has it. The Wayback Machine only has a version of the page that says "You must sign in to access D&DI content". Grrrrr...
Syserr, that is an awesome backstory. Is that "culling" the setting of your campaign world? If so... it sounds like a really fun campaign. I might have to steal that idea and use it myself someday...
Yeah, here's the story the DM told me that I based my character on:
Somewhere in the world before anything happened there was an old mystic woman who lived in the forest. The nearby townsfolk were fearful of her even though she never gaves them cause to be.
One late spring day, three children ventured into the forest to play and did not return home that evening. The townsfolk, rushing to conclusions, formed a mob and set upon the old mystic woman. Blindly believing that she had taken the children for her dark magic, the townfolk burned her alive as a witch.
However, as the fires began to consume her, she spat a horrible curse on the world. She vowed that every summer soltice, one half of the life on the planet would be snuffed out as retribution for the injustice committed against her; and on the fifth year, "the dead would rise"...
Two days later on the afternoon of the summer soltice, the three children emerged from the forest scared and hungry but otherwise unharmed. That evening the curse that culled the life from the planet began...
Our campaign is set three and a half years after the first culling (my story has an extra year because I misunderstood the timeline), so only 1/16th of the worlds living things are still alive (including livestock, animals, etc; yet oddly excluding insects as far as anyone can tell).
Also, no one has been able to commune with any gods since the curse first began. Until that is, when one of the high priests of the few remaining churched got a message. The message essentially said that "there are dark times ahead, the gods will give what help they can", and was only about 15 seconds long.
hi a was wandering if there was a more printer friendly version of the binder class and vestiges anywhere
Debating about picking up the binder class for a Ranger/Assassin that is a Yuan-ti(pure blood).
Any ideas for the best vestiges to use for this make up?
Malphas! You can observe the victim through your bird for death attack (or by turning invisible); you get some more damage via Sudden Strike.
At low levels, Leraje is decent if you go ranged.
Many others can be useful but it depends on your build, level, ...
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