Interesting and thank you Tempest for taking the time to make these clairifications for me. I do apologize for not reading the novel of responses that would have covered these topics.
the only thing that I would continue to debate about is the definition of capture since the spell has a duration I would not consider it capture since it will expire, unless a permanent effect kept it there..
I guess I have a philosophical issue against theoretical optimization, believing that there is no point in creating a character that i cannot play and focus in character optimization borderlining theoretical optimization
Interesting and thank you Tempest for taking the time to make these clairifications for me. I do apologize for not reading the novel of responses that would have covered these topics.
the only thing that I would continue to debate about is the definition of capture since the spell has a duration I would not consider it capture since it will expire, unless a permanent effect kept it there..
I guess I have a philosophical issue against theoretical optimization, believing that there is no point in creating a character that i cannot play and focus in character optimization borderlining theoretical optimization
Thank you again for your time, Tempest
So? Let's stipulate that Gate is not a capture. SO WHAT?!
Seriously, Gate lets you control the creature for 17 rounds. And it has Wish as a SLA it can use three times in three rounds. The SLA does not require the Efreet to be captured to be used. Hence the trick still works fine.
Here is the example build I promised over on this thread: Incentive to Play a Kobold The Manipulate Form ability is explained here, operating under the Fair Use clause. Manipulate FormShow
At will, a sarrukh can modify the form of any Scaled One native to Toril, except for aquatic and undead creatures. With a successful touch attack, it can cause one alteration of its choice in the target creature's body. The target falls unconcious for 2d4 rounds due to the shock of changing form. A successful DC 22 Fortitude dave negates both the change and the unconciousness. Sarrukh are immune to this effect. A sarrukh may use this ability to change a minor aspect of the target creature, such as the shape of its head or the color of its scales. It may also choose to make a much more significant alteration, such as converting limbs into tentacles, changing the overall body shape (snake to humanoid, for example), or adding or removing an appendage. Any ability score may be decreased to a minimum of 1 or increased to a maximum equal to the sarrukh's corresponding score. A sarrukh may also grant the target an extraordinary, supernatural, or spell-like ability or remove one from it. The change bestowed takes effect immediately and is permanant. Furthermore, the alterations are automatically passed on to all the creature's offspring when it breeds with another of its unmodified kind.
Behold Pun-Pun, the mighty kobold.
*** UPDATE ***
Ascension is now achievable (and has been for years... sorry) at level 1. All you need is the will and the know-how. Here's how:
1. Make sure that your alignment is not CE. LG would work best. You want to benefit the multiverse and there is no better way to do that than for it to be like puddy in your hands. 2. You need a Knowledge check of 25 to know that you can summon Pazazu like Beetlejuice. As a Psion with a Sage Psicrystal, an 18 Intelligence, the Skill Focus feat, four ranks in Knowledge (The Planes) and a masterwork item of relevance (say a book), you can take 10 to get 25. It's ok that you got bullied as a child for your narrow focus and strange fascination in all things relating to the planes. It will pay off in the end. 3. Summon Pazuzu by calling out his name three times. He'll appear and be like "Yo! What the hell?!?! What do you want Mor-tal? Power? I can give it!" You'll look all calm and not impressed and be like "I'd prefer a Lawful Evil aligned Candle of Invocation". "There is a price!" the demon lord will scream. "You must go closer to EV-ILL!!!" "Ok" you will say. "I shall be Neutral Good from now on." Pazuzu shouts "If you're going to stick with the one shift limit I would greatly prefer that you shifted to Lawful Neutral over Neutral Good!!!" You will look as if this is a deal breaker and you are ready to leave, then say "You're a real ballbuster but we have a deal."
Now you have your candle. 4. Use the Candle to Gate in an Efreeti. He is under your control so you will command him to grant you three wishes. The first is to Plane Shift to the Astral Plane. The second is for another Candle of Invocation. The third is to stop George Lucas from moving forward on Indiana Jones 5. 5. Use the Candle to Gate in a Sarruhk. Command him to grant you Manipulate Form through the use of Manipulate Form.
Ascend.
I have 1 issue. If u r doing this on first lvl => u can control with Candle of Invocation one creature with HD 2... How is it possible to Command anything to Sarruhk???
I have 1 issue. If u r doing this on first lvl => u can control with Candle of Invocation one creature with HD 2... How is it possible to Command anything to Sarruhk???
1) You don't need to do this at first level. You can do it without the candle with anyone who can cast Gate, and you can do it without the Efreeti if you have Shapechange (also detailed in the post). There are other methods that work at lower levels. The Pazuzu/candle/efreeti method is just used to show how early this trick can be done. (We were at one point trying to do it before Pun-Pun is born.)
2) If you use the candle, you aren't casting gate, the candle is. The candle's caster level is 17. (You can't cast a CL 2 gate.)
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
These are NOT all my creations! The lead authors are identified as follows: [TS] Tempest Stormwind, [AR] Andarious Rosethorn, [RT] Radical Taoist, [SN] Sionnis, [DH] DisposableHero_, [SH] Seishi.
[TS] The Pinball Brothers: Large And In Charge (Melee, Lockdown, Charge, Juggling) [TS] Ashardalon Reborn: I Will Swallow Your Soul (Melee, Fear, Negative Levels, AoE, Theme) [AR] "A"-Game Paladin: Play That Funky Music, Knight Boy! (Team Support, Melee, Theme, Single-Class) [RT] Uncanny Trapsmith: Get in, make it look like an accident, get out. (Skillmonkey, Stealth/Scout/Infiltration, Unorthodox Methods, Theme) [AR] Wizsassin: *Everything* is permitted. (Spellcaster, Support, Sneak Attack, Utility) [TS] Phantom Rush: General Gish Gouda. (Gish, Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Early-Entry PrC) [TS] Storm Knight: Another kind of gish. (Melee/"Gish", Theme, Setting-Specific(Eberron), Unorthodox Methods) [TS] Inevitable Nightmare: The weapon you only have to fire once. (Melee, "Unorthodox" Methods (no charging), Reliability) [AR] Captain Constitution: The number one threat to America. (Melee, TOUGHTOUGHTOUGH, Defense, Theme) [AR] Nuker: I casts the spells that makes the peoples fall down! (Spellcaster, damage, blasting, damage) [TS] Dread Lord of the Dead: Let the Reaping Begin! (NPC-only, Variable (combat/casting/leadership), Iconic Villain, Theme) [AR] Heavy Crusader: No Rest. No Mercy. No Matter What. (Melee, Damage (No charging), Variable, Theme). [TS] Gun Fu: It's bullet time (Ranged, THEORETICAL, Twin weapons, Theme) [RT] Face First: We should talk. (Psionic, social, mind-control, info-management) [SN] Chaingun Porcupine: Never Enuff Dakka. (Ranged, Skirmishing, Spike Damage, Incarnum) [RT] Always On Edge: The Mortal Draw deals death. (Melee, Generalist, Dungeoneering, Stunt) [AR] Feral Druid: Real feral taste. Zero druid calories. (Melee, offense, damage, murder) [RT] Rusty!: Man's Best Friend (Sentry, Support, Backup, Rearguard) [RT] The T3 (Tashalatora Triple Threat): My Kung Fu is More Powerful (Hybrid, Flex-Function, Melee, Caster) [RT] The #1 Snoipah: Boom. 'Eadshot. (Caster, Theme, Spike, Trapscout) [AR] Dreamblade: Rest in Pieces. (Melee, Damage, Single-Class, Combo/Momentum) [AR] Evasion Tank: “When fighting angry blind men, is best to stay out of the way.” (Melee, Tank, Unorthodox Methods (attack negation), Theme) [DH] Psycarnum Warrior: ↑↑↓↓←→←→BA Start (Melee, Tank, Psionics, Incarnum, 1337 h4x) [AR] Heavy Weapons Elf: WHO TOUCHED MY BOW? (Ranged, Cohort, Damage, Unorthodox Methods (ranged ToB)) [RT] Gnowhere Gnome: A little man who wasn't there (Caster, Stealth, Single-Class, Elusive) [AR] Uberflank: I got your back. (Melee, support, stunt, teamwork) [TS] Flip the Bird: Everyday I'm shuffling (Ranged, harrier, unorthodox methods (ranged ToB / off-turn movement), support) [DH] Eat Sleep Gank: Real Ultimate Power (Stealth, Assassination, Spike, Magic Versatility) [AR] Slash and Burn: Mind, Body, Blade, Flame / Aspects of a greater whole / which delivers death. (Melee, Theme (flex-style), Damage, Stunt) [RT] Edge of the Light: Cut, Fade to Black (Melee, Defense/Offense, Momentum, Tactical) [RT] Quiet Murder: Cut throats, not corners. (Melee, Stealth, Harrier, Tactical) [TS] Wand Overdrive: Say Hello to my little friends. (Caster, support/artillery/variable, wand specialist) [RT] God Hand: What did the five fingers say to the face? (Melee/Gish, Unarmed, SAD, Theme) [AR] Zero Buff Time Gish: Try to keep up! (Gish, Speed, Movement, Opportunity) [TS] Robo Tackle: I Am Iron Man. (Melee, setting-specific (Eberron), positioning, theme, stunt)
You didn't read even the post you quoted, did you? Pun-Pun's a kobold. Kobolds are Scaled Ones (see Serpent Kingdoms). Therefore, no problem!
There's the problem; while I did read the post, I misunderstood the context. For some reason, it struck me as a strategy to oppose Pun-Pun, not in reference to methods of pun-Pun's creation. Two days of sleeplessnes is clearly not a good frame of mind to post in, and I apologize for any confusion on my part.
I didn't know Pun Pun was even still a thing. I dug up a comic I made several years ago (a parody of the Chick Tract 'Dark Dungeons') that referenced Pun Pun. Googled it and found him to still be alive, well and towering over mere mortals.
One question or challenge, here we made a level 1 pun pun using a kobold. The serpent kingdoms list some constructors that are scaled ones. My question is, and if we tried to make a level 0 pun pun, using one of those constructors and the incarnate constructor template [that has a LA -2 (minimun 0)]?
