Is it possible to activate a scroll of greater celerity and make another tornado throw?
Would someone who has been more active than me in this thread get the honor of posting a link to this thread in here. This is so that Chuck can get official recognition
And, though the current record is cheesestick-free, I'll merely note that using them could up the damage considerably (although we'd have to change the dorjes to custom command-activated unlimited-use items of hustle, since the number of charges limits us to 100 activations, and nightsticks would grant at least twice that many swift actions).
We certainly don't need more damage, but if Hulking Hurler proponents counter with a larger number than the existing target, we can increase Chuck's damage essentially as far as we want.
Here's a sort of philosophical question, though: if a tree falls in the continent-spanning forest Chuck and the Hulking Hurler just demolished in a single round, and no one but them is left to hear it, does it actually matter which one of them did more trillions of damage?
Something tells me we won't bother calculating damage/speed if Chuck were polymorphed into a cheetah.
Can't we also snag the highest jump check?
From the SRD
Your Jump check is modified by your speed. If your speed is 30 feet then no modifier based on speed applies to the check. If your speed is less than 30 feet, you take a -6 penalty for every 10 feet of speed less than 30 feet. If your speed is greater than 30 feet, you gain a +4 bonus for every 10 feet beyond 30 feet.
((576,160-30)/10)*4= + 230,452 to jump
Of course, I may have been using a fly speed when I grabbed the latest chuck increment, but even if you reduce this by a factor of 10, it's still the record for the highest jump.
Random thought. Is there anyway to include a bull rush into this whole ordeal? Though it would be neigh impossible at 20th lvl, I can't help but imagine using this with the dungeoncrasher fighter variant.
I'd be more worried about your bones liquefying under the acceleration when you move that fast. Not to mention, assuming you survive that, not being able to breathe in the upper reaches of the troposphere and the lower areas of the stratosphere.
Compared to that, terminal velocity isn't even a question.
I'd be sure to wear a necklace of adaptation so at least you can breathe
Wouldn't a dip into something like Master of Shrouds (Extra Rebuking) or any other class that gave attempts be worth while, or are we pushing at our CL limits and need that more (think MoS is 4/5 with the first level being dead casting).
Unless I'm missing something we're at the limit with cleric casting 13 (just enough to get needed lvl7 spells) and IL 17 (to get a lvl9 maneuver).
Damn now we an item to protect Chuck from g-force.
Or we can make Chuck the center of the multiverse and when he's "moving" it's actually the rest of the world that is moving (except for the atmosphere of course) so now no more g-forces for Chuck and everyone else suffers them
Or we just ignore g-forces and hope the DM doesn't think about that
G-forces, etc. aren't in the D&D universe, neither is taking damage from your own jumping.
Let's not invent problems that don't exist and keep real-world physics out of it.
Instead let's beg someone to update both the current equipment-less Chuck, generic equipment Chuck and full tricked-out Chuck (cough cough eberron)
er... I think damage from too high jumps are covered somewhere, I just don't know where it was
Anyhow I think Chuck can survive 20d6 damage if he ever decide to jump too high and given he has acces to cleric spells he can just cast heal after and everything's ok
Disclaimer: The following build uses a custom magic item and as such is subject to DM fiat. For the CO-board endorsed build, see page 11.
Chuck is a Cleric 2/Crusader 1/Swordsage 4/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Contemplative 3.
A Few Good items:
Panther Mask(MIC 201)--2700 gold. Gives Chuck the benefit of the Run feat in light or no armor.
Reliquary Holy Symbol(MIC 120)--1,000 gold. 2 more turn undead attempts for the bargain basement price of 1,000 gold.
Staff of Greater Celerity (100 charges=infinite)-180,000 gold. With ranks in Use Magic Device(cross-classed) and a high Charisma, activation is guaranteed. Thanks to the Sage's ruling, activating of a spell-trigger item is the same action type as casting the spell. In this case, a swift action.
Circlet of Rapid Casting(MIC 86). 15,000 gold. 3 charges per day. Expend 2 charges to cast a spell of up to 3rd level as part of the same swift action required to activate the item, so long as the spell isn't longer than 1 standard action. Footsteps of the divine is a 3rd-level spell and a standard action.
Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend--3,000 gold. Can apply Extend Spell after Persistent Spell to Footsteps of the Divine.
Gloves of Storing(two gloves). 20,000 gold. Allow Chuck to use two additional items and not interfere with his ability to Tornado Throw or cast spells. Can draw them or store them as a free action(one per glove)
Sword of Crypts (Arms and Equipment Guide)--42,315gp
+2 Holy Longsword that gives 1 extra turn attempt each day, and adds +2 to turning damage
Very interesting. Since Chuck is a good-aligned Crusader, there's nothing wrong with him having a holy sword. And the Turn Undead use is nice. He can draw it as part of a move action and drop it as a free action if he must.
Scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity--3,825
+4 Cha = 2 extra turn attempts. Fly speed of double "normal" speed.
Cloak of Charisma+6--36,000. +6 Enhancement bonus to Charisma.
Tome of Leadership and Influence--137,500. +5 inherint bonus to Charisma.
Spellsight Spectacles(MIC 138)--2500. +5 competence bonus on spellcraft checks to decipher scrolls and use magic device checks to use scrolls.
+5 Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt--37,100. No speed reduction, Armor Check Penalty or Arcane Spell Failure(for Arcane Scrolls).
Scroll of Favor of the Martyr--1,400 gold. Grants immunity to Daze among other things for 7 minutes.
Total spent: 482,340 gold
Remaining: 277,660 gold
Calculation of Swift Actions
82 extra swift actions, as on page 11.
Using Our Extra Actions
Round 1: Favored of the Martyr as a standard action, activate Circlet of Rapid casting in conjunction with DMM: Persist and Lesser Metamagic Rod of Extend to cast Extended Persistent Footsteps of the Divine as a swift action.
We forego the remaining duration to increase our base speed to 288,070 ft for the rest of the round.
Our Standard action is using the Scroll of Greater Visage of the Deity, which gives +4 Charisma and a fly speed of double our base speed. Since Footsteps of the Divine actually increases base speed instead of applying a bonus, Chuck's new fly speed is 576,140 ft.
Our move action will be to move 576,140 ft.
Our Sfree wift action will be to Run 2,880,700 ft(547.66 miles)
We have 82 free swift actions for Chuck to use, thanks to a high number of Turn Undead attempts and Ruby Knight Vindicator's Divine Impetus ability.
Chuck's first 37 will be used to activate the Staff of Greater Celerity to move 37 x 5 x 576,140 ft, which is 106,585,900 ft (20,263.47 miles)
Our next additional swift action will be using the Staff to generate an extra full-round action to initiate Tornado Throw.
Our remaining 44 swift actions will be used to alternate between recovering Tornado Throw and activating the Staff of Greater Celerity to initiate Tornado Throw.
How Far, How Hard
A "Chuck Increment" in this case is about 576,140 feet for a human, or 109.53 miles. This is how far Chuck can move in a single move action. He moves twice this distance when initiating Tornado Throw and five times this distance with the Run action.
1 + 38 x 5 = 191 CI before the first trip.
191 + 23 x 2 = 237 CI before the last trip.
Since damage increases linearly I'll take the average of the two as average throw damage.
576140*191=110,042,740 ft(20,920.67 miles)
110,042,740 ft * +2/5 ft = +44,017,096 to 1st trip check
44,017,095 ft thrown(8368.26 miles)
30,811,973 avg. damage
36,974,368 with Aura of Chaos
Ending(after twenty-three Tornado Throws)
576140*237=136,545,180 ft(25,959.16 miles)--around the equator, I believe.
136,545,180 ft * +2/5 ft = +54,618,072 to last trip check
54,618,070 ft thrown(10,383.66 miles)--a journey of 10,000 miles begins with a single throw. It ends with a crater.
38,232,656 avg. damage
45,879,187 with Aura of Chaos
(36,974,368 + 45,879,187) / 2 = 41,426,777 is about the average damage of a throw.
41,426,777 * 2,650,244 throws is 109,791,069,000,000 average damage.
109.79 trillion damage.*
*Indicates damage from scenario subject to DM fiat. For theoretical use only.
Damage is still nothing in comparison to the Dirty Trick Combination. It's not even close.
Here's the order of class levels I'd suggest (since you guys don't seem to have that hammered out quite yet):
Crusader 1/Cleric 2/Swordsage 1/RKV 6/Comtemplative 3/RKV +1/SSage +3/RKV +3.
If we need more Cleric casting, we can get it by dropping the level of Crusader (taking Martial Study and Martial Stance to meet prereqs for RKV), and moving the martial adept levels further back, like so:
Cleric 4/Swordsage 2/RKV 6/Contemplative 3/RKV +4/SSage +1
CL 15, IL 17, for 8th level Cleric spells and 9th level maneuvers.
Of course...that's if we have two feat slots open.
Don't know anything about Contemplative, though, so just ignore me if that doesn't work.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought Devoted Spirit maneuvers & stances were alignment-specific. We're presuming Chuck is Good for Visage of the Deity purposes; with the LN Wee Jas as his matron deity, he'd have to be Lawful Good, which, unless I'm wrong, would seem to rule out Aura of Chaos as a possibility.
One other thought... As far as his bonus Contemplative domain goes, the first thing that popped into my head was Retribution. I don't know if that's an option for a Wee Jas follower, but its granted power of 1/day max damage on one attack would seem to be helpful here.
As far as I know, there are no maneuvers with alignment requirements.
Can't chuck be neutral and channel positive energy so he casts good spells as a cleric and no evil spells and can cast Greater Visage of the Deity as a good spell and yet be able to initiate Aura of Chaos?
Anyhow that's how I see it, maybe I'm wrong.
As far as I know, while the maneuvers and stances in question have alignment descriptors:
1) The text of the maneuvers themselves do not mention requiring an alignment to use
2) I'm not sure if the rules section of maneuvers states alignment as a requirement for learning the maneuver in the first place, but I don't believe so
3) The rules text for Crusader might mention that he can only choose level-up maneuvers that don't contradict his alignment, but I don't remember such rules text, if it exists.
Even so, if 2) does not actually exist, then 3) can be circumvented with Martial Stance.
Besides, Aura of Chaos isn't the meat of the combo.
Eh, it just bothers me when people say "record highest damage" without taking that one into consideration. And it is different than Pun-pun, because of the lack of infinite loops.
I just checked the crusader class for any mention of alignment restirctions in regards to maneuvers learned, relearned, or stances, and thankfully, there is none
sorry one more question about the extreme jump height do you think he would land the same round he jumped or would he be stuck falling at 200 feet a round or whatever the standard fall speed in D&D is?
Your turn stops when you have no more actions and the movement you do in the air is calculated with your other moves and if you exceed your max move distance your turn stops while in mid-air.
e.g. : a normal human (30ft movement) takes 2 move actions to move 50ft and then jumps, if he travels more than 10ft in air his turn stops at 10ft and he must start his other turn by taking a move action to finish the jump.
Now I don't know about the falling part in a too high jump since AFAIK it's mentioned nowhere. If you're realistic Chuck would take many rounds to fall down but I think by RAW he'd land in a round if he had enough movement (and he has plenty of that :P).
It's a good thing that movement in the D&D world is not actually interupted by a round ending. Otherwise, I can just picture Chuck (or any other high jumper).
Chuck's turn ends.
Chuck: Hey guys? Could you get me down? I'm kind of stuck.
Initiative comes again to chuck, but now his speed is much, much less.
Chuck: *falls about 100 feet out of his 11 miles, then his turn is over* "Yeargh!!!!!!!!!! ugh. Well, I hope the others can take care of any I missed, because I'm not getting down anytime soon."
Repeat until Chuck hits the ground, taking his damage.
There's a FAQ entry that gives guidelines for falling large distances. I think the quick and dirty answer was 500' per round terminal velocity for a humanoid, or thereabouts.
hey all, just to bump this exelent thread I found a feat that I don't know if you've noticed, its from Complete Champion, and its called:
Animal Devotion [Domain], take Cheetah's Sprint and you get +5-foot sacred or profane bonus to your land speed per 4 character level. Which makes it +30 feet at lvl 20 for 1 min a day.
Preffy nifty, should bump up the run speed and damage in your build if you hadn't taken it already
The problem is that any feat that adds speed isn't really worth it since 1 Extra Turning feat gives Chuck 4 extra move actions which are gonna add way more speed.
I know that we're staying away from UA, but perhaps a flaw is in order?
Question: Do you specifically have to use Undead turning attempts, or will any do?
If you can use any turn attempt, I'd say switch out Undeath for Air/Earth/Fire/Plant/Water domain to get another 23+ Cha Modifier over what you get with Undeath.
Extra Turning adds to all turning capabilities, not just undead.
ok besides all the cool stuff you can do with this how do you charge something if you can't see it even if you use something to see the target how can you see threw your eyes so you don't run into something?
Assume the magic let's your mind (and senses) keep up with your impossible speed?
Oh, and about Ruby Knight, I've never even seen a copy of Tome of Battle. I'm just going off what everyone else has said. (sorry if it seems like I'm ranting or snapping. I don't mean to)
Still, if it worked... to all.
If the build can afford it, a one level dip into Mythic Exemplar from Complete Champion will give a 20' insight bonus to base speed. 1st level is noncasting, though. I can't remember if you were even concerned about small bonuses to speed anymore; thought I'd throw this out there anyway.
Could somebody explain to me again how when you do the tornado throw you are able to trace a line to your target that you are moving 570,000+ft in 6sec to if you cannot see that far?
Normally you use your (82?) other move actions to near the target before initiating Tornado Throw.
Oh and you don't need to go in a straight line, if you know your target is somewhere "near" you, just go there and search for him. you can move about 20,000 miles before initiating the maneuver so I guess it's pretty safe to say you'll "bump" into your target if you know in which direction and have a hint of the distance it is from you.
I've really enjoyed this thread and I realy like 'Chuck' as a build.
I don't have access to Tome of Battle so I'm probably full of it...
Isn't one of the big problems with tripping builds that you cannot trip with the AoO you get when your opponent stands up from prone?
i.e. you cannot perform a trip on a prone target.
Surely, unless Tornado Throw explicitly says otherwise, you can only use it once on any single target. After that he's prone and no longer a valid target.
The wording of Tornado Throw is interesting here. It says to resolve the throw as a trip attempt, with no exception made for being prone, but it also states explicitly that you can attempt to throw the same opponent multiple times.
If you wanted to be a party pooper, you could pick nits over the word "attempt". After all, as long as I fail to trip someone I can keep attempting, but only because they're not prone yet.
Being prone is a condition inflicted on a successful trip, in the same way as when you fail the save vs my stunning fist you are stunned when I successfully trip you you are now prone. Since you are already stunned I cannot stun you again, not only can I not trip a prone person but I cant even trip you when you get up. However, much like the Thicket of Blades fiasco, Tome of Battle broke the melee rules so much that its better off to just ignore it so that we can continue to improve this monstrocity.
Improvements: Improved Trip + wolf pack tactics stance. Chuck the minimal 10ft distance and keep making dc40 tumble check 10ft steps after every successful improved trip attack until you've stepped upto your speed.
Well, a Throw is resolved as a trip check but isn't excatly the same. Is it said somewhere you can't throw a prone opponent ?
I was wondering... with a level of Dervish and some way to Shadow Pounce, wouldn't the movement actually increase, since you would do your attacks while moving all you speed then re-doit like 4 times?
Someone is looking for this thread just thought I'd move it up.
some dazes yes, but not all...
i have not seen the ones that its not immune to but each daze mentions its relation to mind affecting
The best way to get daze immunity is to use Limited Wish for contingencied Favored of the Martyr (book of exalted cheese) set to go off "immediately before I become dazed."
I think this build's kinda feat heavy as it is and its good to stay away from campaign-specifics unless otherwise noted.
Let us consider this build:
naenhoon illumian gestalt cleric20/swordsage11/ftr4/master of 95. Feats of importance: extend spell, persistent spell, divine metamagic (persistent), combat reflexes, combat expertise, pimproved trip.
Prebuffs with: Divine Power, Righteous Might, Greater Visage of the Deity, footsteps of the divine. All made persistent + extended through a combination of naenhoon power word, divine metamagic and/or rod of extend (lol).
Putting the catapault together: Dual stance wolf-pack tactics + thicket of blades, discharge extended persisted footsteps of the divine for gigantic speed bonus which grants a fly speed = twice base speed (worship a deity which grants movement speed). For these calculations I'll assume a nice rounded off 400,000ft land speed (or 80,000 5ft squares). Start off 10ft away from your opponent, step 10ft towards him with DC40 tumble check from OA and tornado throw him only 10ft upward. Since tornado throw works as a trip attempt you get an attack at highest BaB against him, if you hit you can tumble 10ft upto him and throw him one more time 10ft upward. Rince and repeat, since the 5ft steps from WPT are capped at your land speed and tornado throw lets you move upto double your speed we now have a tornado throw moving 1,200,000ft. At your very last 10ft of movement throw him your very hardest with a +2.4 million bonus on the trip check, you will be successful and will chuck him 10+(2.4 million/5, or 480,010)ft upward into the air. At the very end of your catapaulting he would have taken 168,000d6 points of falling damage, he also has taken 336,002d6 points of damage from the tornado throw itself, and that's not counting the millions of attacks I just made against him ALL AT HIGHEST BAB!
Did I win anything?
yes, every daze 'i' have seen is mind effecting.... and iv not seen them all.....
and that is a scary build / tactic...
Since you are working under the premise that footsteps is giving an increase to base speed...
Why not cast it and discharge it multiple times? Or is it not stackable for some reason?
In general, even unnamed bonuses from the same source don't stack. We also don't, if I remember the sequence correctly, have standard actions to spare for casting.
Ack! I was just stumbling around my books yesterday when I found a way to make Chuck even more dangerous, and significantly so.
Step 1. Purchase a Scroll of Planar Binding and a Power Stone of True Mind Switch.
Step 2. Use the Scroll of Planar Binding to bind an Aspect of Demogorgon.
Step 3. Use the Power Stone of True Mind Switch to switch bodies with the Aspect.
Step 4. ???
Step 5. PROFIT!!!
The Aspect has the ability to make two round's worth of actions each round. Polymorph wouldn't get you these (plus, it's an outsider, so you couldn't polymorph into it anyway).
Many abilities, TMS wouldn't give you either. But an Aspect's Dual-Actions is an extraordinary special quality. TMS gives you access to all extraordinary abilities of your new form. Plus, becuase as a human, Chuck lacks any extraordinary abilities, he loses nothing.
The best part is the price: A mere 55,475 gp. (53,825 for the power stone, 1,650 for the scroll)
Anyone care to calculate how much Chuck could do with that.
Just something I thought about when I was looking through this.
AoO's still happen, right? Speed non-withstanding. Even if they are moving at Mach 100 the person would still be able to swing out their sword to attack them?
Talk about distorting space-time... or something...
trip, just to see chuck fly with less than perfect manuverbility.
Warning: Pure, absolute speculation. I don't know if this would work, nor if you would countenance the use of nightsticks.
That said, a question: Would the 2d6/10 ft count as "melee damage rolls"? I think they could, because although damage taken is based on distance traveled, it is a direct result of Chuck throwing the target (melee attack), but it's not guaranteed by any means. If that doesn't count as melee damage rolls, maybe replace 2 SS levels with Bloodstorm Blade to make them ranged-but-count-as-melee attacks...?
If it does count, throw Stormguard Warrior in there somehow and do the attack routine 2 rounds in a row (assuming you have enough nightsticks to get you enough turning attempts), making the Tornado Throws touch attacks instead of throwing people. This deals 5*attacks damage on each attack--that is, +((5 * # of attacks) * # of attacks) damage--in round 2, which, based on post 357, gives
# of attacks= 106,585,90 atks/TT * 23 Tornado Throws = 245,147,570
# of attacks^2= 60,097,331,076,904,900
(# of attacks^2) * 5= 300,486,655,384,524,500
So this gives us an extra +300,486,655,384,524,500 more damage assuming Stormguard Warrior works; this extra damage alone is 3000-and-change times as much damage as the original amount, with only one round of warmup.
So does this work?
I know this is serious thread necromancy here, but I have an item or two that could help Chuck out.
First up, Slippers of Battledancing from DMG II. For just 33,750 gp and 5 ranks in Perform (dance), they let him substitute his Cha modifier for Strength on attack and damage rolls with one handed or light weapons as long as he moves at least 10' as a move action.
Next, make his weapon a Devoted Spirit Setting Sun martial discipline weapon, for an extra +7 to all attack rolls when using Tornado Throw while in the Aura of Chaos stance.
Gauntlets of Extended Range from the MIC are also a nice and relatively cheap addition to the build; for just 2,000 gp, or 3,000 gp if you add the property onto another hand slot item, you double the range increment of thrown objects.
A Winged Vest, also from the MIC, activates as a swift action to give you a 60ft. fly speed for the next five rounds.
Add the properties of the Circlet of Mages to the Circlet of Rapid Casting for an extra 7,500 gp and you can recover 1 third-level spell per day as a free action, possibly letting you cast Divine Footsteps again.
I'm sure there are other possibilities out there that we've missed, so I'll keep looking. And feel free to tell me if some of these items aren't as useful as I'd thought.
Looking through it, the only useful one in there is the Gauntlets of Extended Range, but only for the last throw.
If it works on whatever you throw (I think it only works on thrown weapons), then that will dramatically increase damage.
Casting Footsteps of the Divine again won't be useful becuase you're already used all of your turn attempts.
If you're using items... why not item-cheese out, and get Slippers of the Setting Sun (Master) (ToB pg 150)? 45000 for any 9th level maneuver saves you the non-caster levels.
What that gives you, is 7 more Turning attempts/day (7 for not using DMM: Persist; burn one feat at 18 for Martial Lore: Quicksilver Motion takes away the feat you save by not taking DMM: Persist), Miracle, Greater Celerity daily instead of on a scroll, Greater Visage of the Deity... there are a lot of goodies at 9th level casting. And, if you delay the RVK until the last 7 levels, you can still get Aura of Chaos.
Alternatively, take the item, and you can start this much earlier with DMM: Persist-- Chuck won't hit the absolute theoretic max at level 10 (when you first have 45K GP), but he can do the first part (Tornado Throw + Persistent Footsteps) then. Heck, if he just went Cleric 10 with Undeath and Planning Domains, and then Extra Turning 3 times... with a Cha of 14, he should be able to persist 2 other spells (hi2u Righteous Might + Divine Power). This makes a character playable without the cheese, but still able to XP on the planet closer to level 20 by just not DMMing RM and DP. Hell, Cleric 10/Crusader 1/RVK 9 works splendidly, and honestly there are worse things for a melee Cleric to take than a dip in Crusader, especially early on (if you're going to dip anyway, that is).
Of course... MDJ ruins your whole day, but scrolls of TT are also somewhat cheap-- and the 9 levels of Cleric casting *should* save you more on the scrolls y'all were using than just one of TT.
(Edit: I know, necrobump, but I was just directed here after coming back from an 18 month hiatus)
Just out of morbid curiosity, has anyone considered the implications of having a Marshal in the party? That's one more move action that he gets. I'm not sure I understand the combination that grants additional swift actions, but I'm sure that 8 levels of marshal can be worked in there, which means two additional move actions.
EDIT: And if there are no circumstance bonuses figured there, add +10 to his move speed (although the DM might rule he'd have to carry the marshal with him)
I'm sorry to say that the best I can do without spells (somehow that seems to be cheating ) is as follows:
Fiendish, Warbeast, Shadow, Half-Fey Centipede (pick a size)
Base Speed: 40
Purchase 100 Fast Legs (from Fiend Folio): 1050
Half-Fey: Fly speed 3150
Does this even work? If it does...well that isn't so bad without buffing...
Im not overly clear on ToB rules, what would be the earliest level you could pull off tornado throw + footsteps of the divine?
One flaw i significantly found was, In all of his Glorious couchpotatohood, Max Turnage is himself not optimized as the ultimate Cheezestick:
If Max instead trades out one of his numerous Extra Turning feats for a single Leadership feat, would he not be allowed to get his identical twin brother as a Cohort, who would then also charge the insane pool of Chuck, Ruby Knight Windicator. Except that Max's cousin also is identical to max and his brother, allowing for even more turning.
or was this part of the No recursive loops problem?
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