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Switch to Forum Live View A short guide to defensive fighting
5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 9:05AM #1
true_shinken
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2007
Posts: 944
This is a compilation of info from some threads, specially Combat Expertise :14 AC ratio, Optimizing Einhander, and Fighting Defensively.

Fighting defensively is an option in combat that gives you better AC in return for a penalty to attack. There is also the Combat Expertise thing, that basically does the same and also stacks with fighting defensively.

For optimizing this, there are basically two ways: the first to try to reduce your penalty to attack rolls while increasing your to-hit & damage bonuses and the other is to use the Dancing with Shadows feat from Races of Eberron to get a high AC on one round and make an amazingly powerful counter attack the following round.

From the SRD: fighting defensively as a full-round action, Combat Expertise, Tumble skill.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 9:05AM #2
true_shinken
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2007
Posts: 944
Races
Azurin (Magic of Incarnum): Grants you 1 point of Essentia and Cobalt Expertise as a bonus feat; 2 essentia is all you need to optimize Cobalt Expertise.

Human: Can't go wrong with an extra skill point and feat; azurin is outright better, though (saves you a feat to get that extra 1 essentia).

Base Classes
Swashbuckler (Complete Warrior, page 11): Full BAB, d10 Hit Dice, Tumble as a class skill, Weapon Finesse as a bonus feat, Int (required for Combat Expertise) to damage at level 3. Also see Shield of Blades under Alternate Class Features.

Monk: With Carmendine Monk/Kung-fu Genius, it's Int to AC. Those bonus feats could be awesome - check the variant fighting styles under Alternate Class Features.

Warblade (Tome of Battle, page 20): Full BAB, d12 Hit Dice, Tumble as a class skill, adds Int to many things, gains standard-action strikes that goes well with Einhander.

Alternate Class Features:
Shield of Blades (Player's Handbook II, page 63): You lose the Swashbuckler's Dodge bonus and gains a +2 shield bonus to AC when fighting (defensively) with two light weapons. It also increases with levels, if you have room for more than Swashbuckler 5.

Fighting Styles: The Passive Way variant grants you Combat Expertise as a bonus feat at level 1. The Sleeping Tiger variant grants you Weapon Finesse at level 1. Either is good, you'd probably want both feats anyway. Denying Stance grants a bonus on grapple checks and disarm attempts (kinda meh). The Invisible Eye variant can get you an extra +1 to AC while using CE, fighting defensively or using total defense, but you need to take Agile as a feat and the bonus feats it grants are pretty worthless in this kind of build (Combat Reflexes, Lightning Reflexes, Blind-Fight). Undying Way gets you DR2/- while fighting defensively, but it sucks so hard I can't even explain it.

Traits
From Unearthed Arcana, traits are a very interesting option that adds flavour and cool stuff to a character. It's rarely used, it seems, but I think it's way better than flaws.
Cautious: +1 bonus to AC while fighting defensively. You can't be immune to fear and you suffer -2 on saves vs fear. It's worth it, I guess.

Feats
[b]Allied Defense
(Shining South): Why not share your AC bonus with your team mates, uh?

Combat Expertise[/b]: Already mentioned, but I added it for completion's sake. Combat Expertise is not required to use most of the abilities listed here; some don't even work with it (Einhander, for example), actually. It can increase your AC even more if you combine it with fighting defensively and it has a better cost/benefit ratio when used alone.

Deadly Defense (Complete Scoundrel, page 76): No requirements, +1d6 damage when fighting defensively (or using Combat Expertise with at least -2 penalty) with finesseable weapons.

Einhander (Player's Handbook II, page 95): Easy requirements (BAB+6 and Tumble 6), +2 dodge bonus to AC while fighting defensively or using total defense with nothing in the off-hand and other minor bonuses. Nice and flavorful.

Quickstaff (Complete Warrior): +2 to AC while fighting defensively with quarterstaff. I still like Broadblade Shortsword better for some reason, though.

War Devotion (Complete Champion, page 63): Increases your bonuses for fighting defensively while it reduces penalties, gets better as you level up. It does not require a swift action to activate (it requires no action at all other than fighting defensively, actually), so it stacks with Defensive Surge/Vest of Defense. Unfortunatelly, it's just 1/day unless you grab a level of Cleric, 4 levels of Paladin or 2 levels of Dread Necromancer for burning turn attemps to fuel it. If anyone knows other ways to gain turn attemps (Sacred Exorcist and similar PrCs that need casting to qualify won't work, you need your levels to get stuff like Shield of Blades and Agile Fighting).

Prestige Classes
Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior, page 30): If you are using broadblade shortsword (or any pair of exotic weapons), a single level dip (requiring a few skill ranks and Weapon Focus) reduces your penalties for TWF to -1. Pretty neat with d10 Hit Dice, also.

Bladesinger (Complete Warrior, page 17 or Races of Faerun page 179): While not amazingly powerful as gishes, Bladesingers really add something to Einhander-users. You are restricted to a one-handed weapon anyway, adds Int or class level to AC and eventually gains a flurry-like ability. Races of Faerun version is arguably better - it has higher requirements, but has it's own spellcasting (allowing you to qualify with Duskblade and actually gaining spells on a useful pace) and you gain 3 bonus feats. You have to be an elf of half-elf in both cases, so think carefuly. Very flavorful, too.

Dervish (Complete Warrior): +4 to AC when fighting defensively. Feat intensive, but a very good PrC that everyone has heard about already.

Thief-Acrobat (Complete Adventurer, page 83): 3/4 BAB and low Hit Dice, but increases bonuses for fighting defensively by +2 with 4 levels (you only lose 1 BAB). Requires evasion, though.

Duelist: Adds level as a bonus to AC while fighting defensively. Requires Dodge and Mobility, though, and is a late bloomer gaining this ability only at level 7.

Equipment:
Bradblade Shortsword (Complete Adventurer, page 117): Adds +1 dodge bonus to AC while fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise with at least -2. It was +2 on release, but it was nerfed in the errata.
Vest of Defense (Magic Item Compendium, page 146): As a swift action, 3/day, +2 on AC while fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise.
Defensive Surge (Magic Item Compendium, page 32): As a swift action, gain a +2 bonus to armor class while fighting defensively or using Combat Expertise for 1 round. Usable 1 + Int modifier times per day. Sadly, it can't be combined with Vest of Defense, since both use your swift action. You should probably use Vest of Defense on lower levels and then switch to a Defensive Surge weapon.

Builds:
Daring Defender
Human Swashbuckler 11/Rogue 4/Thief-Acrobat 4/Exotic Weapon Master 1
Feats: Combat Expertise (1), Cobalt Expertise (Azurin bonus), Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler bonus), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: broadblade shortsword (3), Weapon Focus: broadblade shortsword (6), Two-Weapon Fighting (9), Deadly Defense (12), Daring Outlaw (15), Extra Essentia (18)
Take Shield of Blades with Swashbuckler and Twin Exotic Weapon Fighting with Exotic Weapon Master.
Equipment Needed: +1 defensive surge broadblade shortsword, other broadblade short sword

Spoiler: Show
Base Attack Bonus 18, 12d10+8d6 HD. You gain +8 dodge bonus to AC for using Combat Expertise (with Cobalt Expertise, Agile Fighting and Defensive Surge) at -2 and +4 shield bonus to AC from Shield of Blades, for a total of +12 AC for -2 to attacks. You are dual wielding, but you gain no penalties to your attack roll because of twin exotic weapon fighting and Weapon Focus.

This build is really feat-starved and a late bloomer. Also, per RAW Daring Outlaw does not advance Shield of Blades (only Dodge, that you swaped for Shield of Blades), but I think allowing it is not a stretch and is probably intended. Check with your DM.

To speed things up, use Azurin Swashbuckler 3/Fighter 2/Rogue 3 into the PrCs and ignore Shield of Blades; a Wand of Shield gives you the same effect with minimum buff time. Flaws could also help you.


Ruby Knight Defender
Human Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 4/Cleric 1/Crusader 1/Ruby Knight Vindicator 7/Thief-Acrobat 4
Feats:
Combat Expertise (1), Cobalt Expertise (Human bonus), Weapon Finesse (Swashbuckler bonus), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: broadblade shortsword (3), Weapon Focus: broadblade shortsword (6), Two-Weapon Fighting (9), Deadly Defense (12), Daring Outlaw (15), Extra Essentia (18)
Needed Equipment: Vest of defense, +1 defensive surge broadbade shortsword, broadblade shortsword

Spoiler: Show
The feat setup is practically the same of the last build; does not use Azurin for favored class issues.
A lot of MAD here. Needs Dex and Int for feats and Wis for Cleric casting.
Uses Divine Impetus to activate both Vest of Defense and Defensive Surge at the same turn (actually, since you get more than 1 swift action, you could activate either multiple times for some nova and more AC than you'll ever need, I guess). Using both, you get +10 to AC from fighting defensively and +2 shield bonus from Shield of Blades (but check the last build) for a total of +12 for -2 to attacks.


The Bladesinger
This uses the Races of Faerun version:
Half-Elf Duskblade 2/Passive Way Monk 1/Fighter 2/Swashbuckler 3/Bladesinger 10
Feats: Einhander, Carmendine Monk
Some Int synergy - Carmendine Monk for Int to AC x2, Insightful Strike for Int to damage with rapier. You get a few bonus feats, cast one Bladesinger spell per round as a swift action and you gain a flurry ability. You fight defensively for -4 and gets +6 to AC (+5 if your DM is a jerk and can't accept Oriental Adventures on Tumble even if it follows the progression of ELH).
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 9:07AM #3
true_shinken
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2007
Posts: 944
Everything listed in the last post also works with Dancing with Shadows - except for TWF, since this relies on Power Attack for damage. Please note this is based upon setting-specific stuff.

Races:
Kalashtar: The obvious choice. You need this for Path of Shadows and Dancing with Shadows. Has favored class issues (psion as favored class) and other racial abilities do not help.

Changeling: Racial Emulation allows them to qualify for Path/Dance.

Feats:
Dancing With Shadows (Races of Eberron, page 117): Requires base attack +4, Perform (dance) 8 and Path of Shadows.
There are two maneuvers of interest here, Graceful Lunge and Lingering Defense. The first adds a bonus to your first melee attack equal to the dodge bonus you gained from Combat Expertise/fighting defensively (you then convert this to hideous amounts of damage with maneuvers/Power Attack, of course). The second gives you the same dodge bonus from Combat Expertise/fighting defensively the third consecutive round you use the feat for no attack penalty (and you can continue to CE/fight defensively for x2 bonus). Your order should be something like:
Turn 1: fighting defensively
Turn 2: Graceful Lunge (still fighting defensively/using CE with -2 or more)
Turn 3: Lingering Defese (probably still fighting defensively/using CE with -2 or more)
Turn 4: Graceful Lunge (fighting defensively/using CE with -2 or more)
..and so on.

Improved Combat Expertise (Complete Warrior, page XX): Combat Expertise up to your BAB. Tasty.

Path of Shadows (Races of Eberron, page 110): Requires Perform (dance) 5 ranks. +2 on Tumble checks, swaps Concentration for Perform (dance) for casting/manifesting defensively. Not very good, but a requirement for Dancing With Shadows.

Power Attack: This allows you to convert the Graceful Lunge bonuses to damage. A lot of damage.

Racial Emulation (Races of Eberron, page 110): Allows changelings to qualify for Path of Shadows & Dancing with Shadows.

Affiliations
War Affiliation (Complete Champion, page 44): For 1 round, double your bonus from Combat Expertise. Since this matters only on round 1, it's basically extra AC for free.

Prestige Classes
Arcane Duelist: Requires Dodge and Mobility to qualify and the ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells, it's 1/2 BAB with no casting advancement. But, at 3rd level, it gains Dexterous Attack. You are using a two-handed weapon - let's say greatsword - and as such can take a -11 penalty to damage for a +11 to hit... and then convert that +11 for +22 damage with Power Attack (actually +11, since you lost -11). It's +11 damage for no penalty to attack. It's very, very good. This depends on he weapon total damage, not only the dice, so your limit will probably be a lot higher than you base attack anyway.

Exotic Weapon Master (Complete Warrior, page 30): If you have high Strenght, Uncanny Blow adds it twice instead of x1.5 to damage with an exotic weapon.

Equipment:
Jovar (Planar Handbook, page 58): Exotic weapon, 2d6 damage, critical range 18-20. With all that bonus, a critical is going to hurt. Not finesseable, so a bit MAD.
Elven Courtblade (Races of the Wild, page 166): Exotic weapon, two-handed and finesseable, 1d10 damage, critical range 19-20. More damage but less utility than a spiked chain.
Spiked Chain: Exotic, two-handed, finesseable, has reach and can trip/disarm.

Builds:
Duelist of Shadows
Kalashtar Bard 3/Swashbuckler 3/Psychic Warrior 2/Fighter 2/Arcane Duelist 3/Warmind 7

Abilities:
Str 13 for Power Attack, all the Int you can get (at least 13) for Insightful Strike, Dex for attack and AC, Cha for AC from Arcane Duelist (who cares about 3rd-levle Bard casting?). You need Wis 15 for manifesting; your kalashtar bonus power points will deal with the rest. Con is needed for non-HP damage, but I guess a 14 is enough - you have good hit dice classes (except for Bard and Arcane Duelist) and a very good Fortitude save for all the diping. Manifesting is not the focus here, it just helps when you are not fighting defensively (Vigor could help the HP).

Feats:
Combat Expertise (1), Path of Shadows (3), Dancing With Shadows (9), Improved Combat Expertise (12), Dodge (Psychic Warrior 1), Mobility (Psychic Warrior 2), Exotic Weapon Proficiency: elven courtblade (Fighter 1), Weapon Focus: elven courtblade (Fighter 2), open (level 15), open (level 18)
Equipment Needed:
+5 elven courtblade

Spoiler: Show
BAB 16, your damage potential for Dexterous Attack will be more than this (with Str 13 and Int 13, it's exactly that, actually - 1d10+5+1+1= max damage 17-1=16). So, let's consider your routine with Dancing With Shadows and Dexterous Attack:
Turn 1: Improved Combat Expertise; -16 attack, +16 defense
Turn 2: Improved Combat Expertise + Graceful Lunge + Dexterous Attack + Power Attack; +0 to attack, +16 to defense, +16 to damage
Turn 3: Improved Combat Expertise + Lingering Defense; +0 to attack, +16 to defense
Turn 4: Improved Combat Expertise + Graceful Lunge + Dexterous Attack + Power Attack; +0 to attack, +16 to defense, +16 to damage
Repeat turns 3 and 4 until you defeat whatever you are fighting. Hustle helps you reach them, other psionic powers help your damage. Sweeping Strike hits two with one blow; very nice since you are attacking just once per round and all.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 3:35PM #4
carnivore
Date Joined: May 11, 2004
Posts: 3,307
great idea.. good resource

:D
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 3:49PM #5
Howland_Reed
Date Joined: Nov 14, 2005
Posts: 112
Don't forget War Devotion (Complete Champion)...improved ratio when fighting defensively.

I'll add more if I think of any.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 4:10PM #6
Tshern
Date Joined: Aug 16, 2006
Posts: 2,777
Defensive weapons are great for this too.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 4:23PM #7
NiteCyper
Date Joined: Aug 5, 2006
Posts: 764
Perhaps you'd link to the Intelligent Tanking & Accurate Power-Attacking Tleilaxu_Ghola thread from SHCOL?
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 4:57PM #8
skydragonknight
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 536
Kalastar are one of the best races for fighting defensively since they can take the tactical feat Dancing With Shadows from Races of Eberron.

Dancing With Shadows
Prereq: Kalastar, Perform(Dance) 8 ranks, Path of Shadows, BAB +4

You get 3 tactical maneuvers. You can only benefit from one of these maneuvers each round:
Flowing Motion, Still Mind: If you fight defensively or use combat expertise for at least a -2 penalty for 1 round, you get a +2 bonus on will saves that lasts as long as you continue to fight defensively or use combat expertise, plus 1 round thereafter.
Graceful Lunge: To use this maneuver, you must fight defensively or use combat expertise for at least a -2 penalty for 1 round. On the next round you get a bonus on your first melee attack roll equal to the dodge bonus to AC granted by either fighting defensively or using combat expertise in the previous round. (whichever dodge bonus is higher if you do both)
Lingering Defense: To use this maneuver, you must fight defensively or use combat expertise for at least a -2 penalty for 2 consecutive rounds. In the next round, you continue to receive the dodge bonus to AC granted by fighting defensively or using combat expertise, but no longer receive the penalty on attack rolls.

The second and third maneuvers are very good, but you can only use one each round.

Edit: Path of Shadows--Kalastar, Perform(dance) 5 ranks. You get a +2 bonus to Tumble checks and can use a perform(dance) check in place of concentration to cast or manifest defensively.
Not a great feat, but required for the better feat above.
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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 5:23PM #9
true_shinken
Date Joined: Jun 20, 2007
Posts: 944

skydragonknight wrote:

Kalastar are one of the best races for fighting defensively since they can take the tactical feat Dancing With Shadows from Races of Eberron.


Yeah, I'm making a whole section focused on the Dancing With Shadows feat.

Howland Reed wrote:

Don't forget War Devotion (Complete Champion)...improved ratio when fighting defensively.

I'll add more if I think of any.


Can't believe I forgot that. I'm adding it right now, thanks a lot.

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5 years ago  ::  Feb 08, 2008 - 5:29PM #10
skydragonknight
Date Joined: Apr 29, 2006
Posts: 536

true_shinken wrote:

Yeah, I'm making a whole section focused on the Dancing With Shadows feat.


Alright. Then also note their racial substitution level for Monk 2, which lets them take a bonus psionic feat--Interesting for Carmendine Monk/Duelist builds. Psionic Dodge and Speed of Thought both come to mind

@War Devotion.--Read the feat. It's ONE ROUND. Not 1 minute like the others. The Turn Undead recharge is THREE Turn Undead attempts.
"1/day I'm slightly better for 1 round" is good for a magic item, but not good for a feat; even with Cleric levels the turn attempts required to make use for this could be used for better things.

Edit: Kalastar Monks also have access to Ectoplasmic Fist if they dip into Psy War/Fist of Zuoken/Warmind (for Manifester level 1) ML 6 also nets them the ability to get 5 Ectoplasmic Armor shards for an Armor bonus of 10 (at the cost of 6 HP total); 2 levels of Psy War, with the second level feat of practiced manifester does the trick...can you tell that I love Kalastar Psi-Monk hybrids?

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