Can people post, or link to, examples of overpowered casters ... CoDZilla has a strong showing at present.
Directions Caster must be overpowered compared to non-casters at most/all levels of the build especially low levels (pre-7). Power is only determined by in-combat activities, however, if the character can do out-of-combat activities they are a bonus. Tactics must be included on how they are overpowered at each breakpoint listed.
Rules for Character Creation Any WOTC book can be used ... Elite Array or 25 pt buy No Duskblades or Gish with noncaster base classes, this is to compare caster to noncaster All caster base classes have to be +1CL (paladins/rangers are considered noncasters) All caster PrCs have to be at least 3/5 +1 CL No LA races No aging characters No Pun-Pun DMM Cleric IS allowed (as is stacking nightsticks) No Psionic classes No Magic Item discounts for things like class/race/skills/etc or using things like mage slayer to reduce the minimum CL for items for items purchased ... No purchasing of class abilities (spells, frenzy, etc) from NPCs. Items (potions, scrolls, etc) that do this are legal. (Added by consensus) No Scrolls/Potions/Wands of a spell that is higher than a single-classed character of the level of the participant could cast. No cheese for early entry. (Added by consensus)
Please post the build separate from the encounter. This way, if people find issues with the build, then you won't spend time running it first. However, once you run a fight, put links to your fights in the posts that contain your build. This will make things much easier for everyone involved.
Why no Gishes? Using noncaster base classes to prove caster's superiority is backwards. Why did the aging/elite array get reversed? There was a lot of feedback from the caster community that they could not compete without those mechanisms. Hopefully this will increase the amount of competitors. Why are we talking about low-level casters? Casters are percieved to be overpowered at all levels. Noncasters believe this not to be true, especially at lower levels when the caster's resources (spells per day / spells known / etc) are more limited. This thread is to try to see if this is true. Why is the OP making these encounters biased the way he is? Actually, there is no encounter made by me. All encounters are made by other posters. Where are the CustServ Posts: Grendyl Otto Argaud Meyer Fire Riposte+Punishing Stance What is a spellcaster? A spellcaster is a class that casts spells. Why isn't a character that uses potions/wands/scrolls/etc considered a spellcaster? Because the spells that result from items originate externally to the character. That makes no sense. Basically, if a commoner (noncaster) can duplicate a spellcaster via gold, then a spellcaster is not unique. That still makes no sense ... Ok, DnD assumes a wealth by level which includes potions,etc ... if any character that uses potions, etc is a spellcaster, then there can be no discussion of caster vs noncaster as every character is a spellcaster. What is a build? A build is something that includes Stats, Skills, feats, Spells (including spellbook/memorized), items, etc. In other words a character. We ask that everything is posted first, so that any holes are exposed instead of being filled after the fact.
Any/All of these will be reversed upon a response from CustServ
Fleshrakers cannot put barding on itself. - Approved by Cust Serv Time needs to be spend putting on barding. Grapple checks are not melee attacks (initiating a grapple is). Clerics without a diety need to follow the weapon by alignment chart. Expensive material components need to be purchased and listed on the character sheet. Animal cannot use verbal command activated items. - Approved by CustServ Pearl of power + Sanctum Spell is a house rule - Stated by CustServ
5th level 1: Meyer_William: ORC: Rogue 2: Fighter 1: Barbarian 1: Warblade 1: Tactics: Hit things to kill them. Heal up afterwards. Beats (cave 2,3,4, hydra 5, full moon 5, Crypt of Creepiness 1.0), almost beats (cave 5 (manticore has issues)) 2: Argaud: Rogue: Invalid: Tactics, turn into a dwarven ancestor for the win. - wins all fights. Beats alternate CR5 mini-adventure. 3: Clawhound: Fighter: Barely examined, Loses to snake, wraith, rug. Ties manticore/dragon. Tactics: High AC and hit the monster. Go to camp/rest after each battle. 4. ReaderOfPosts: Merchant of Moscow: Tactics, swim through the ground, rush up and kill or bypass the encounters. Hasn't been examined. Possible issues: Uses Psychic Warrior (psionics) but does not use a single power/PP. 5: Thaumaturgist: JinKas: Tactics: Be feral. Issues: This is a level 6 character (level 5 + la+1 for feral). No consensus has came back on the viability of +1 templates (specifically feral), two custom items. 6: Solbergb: Final Bela: Not examined: 7: Meyer_William: Me Too: Tactics: Uses cheap pricing methods, wild shape, fleshraker+venomfire and other weird things. Not been examined. Possible legal issues (pricing). 8: EmeraldSteak: Multiclass Swordsage: Still in development 9: Clawhound: Jack the Commoner: Uses cattle. 10: Meyer_William: Commoner Effigy: Tactics: Creates identical effigies as the Caster Effigy guy, using identical tactics for the win. Note: I haven't run this guy through any adventures, as it is a trivial case of copying the caster's non-casting wins.
1: Drakinar: Dread Necromancer: Failed. Killed by Manticore outside cave, Grappled by snake, wins vs wraith, grappled by rug, killed by dragon. Tactics: Get Killed. 2: DavidWL: Sorcerer. Failure: Cannot use tactics shown. (protection from evil vs wraith, alter self to change two size categories, otherworldly as a halfling, rug immune to necromantic effects, cannot hurt wraith), also, grappled to death in the rug regardless. Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor). 3: PhraedrusXY:Fire Elf Wizard wins. Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor). 4: ReaderOfPosts: Neraphim Conjurer. Invalid: Tactics: Otherworldly, Alter Self (Dwarven Ancestor). Craft Wondrous (pearls), Sanctum Spell (pearl of power) to refesh spell slots. Illegal per CustServ (rather, requires making a houserule, which is the same thing). 5: Ikeren: DMM Cleric - Success: Tactics: DMM Persist, DR/ + Retaliation + balor's aura. Wins lots and lots of encounters. 6: ChatNoir: Druid with Fleshraker - Can not compete yet, (Wearing metal armor, over spent, can not have warbeast template on animal companion, over spent, did not post tactics to beat first encounter). 7: ZarZak: Enchanter - Tactics, Save or Else spells. Charming monsters. Loses to snake and dragon. 8: Tshern/Carnivore: Warmage - Success: Tactics: Otherworldly, Turn into a Dwarven Ancestor and fly through the encounter. 9. CrimsonDeath: Master of Shrouds: - Not finished yet - not examined 10: Magmer1: Warlock: Only used 1/2 his cash. As posted, loses to wraith and rug, possibly dragon. 11: CrimsonDeath: Somewhat Success Cloistered Cleric - Wins four out of five, ties vs the dragon. 12: Jo Pistachio: Illusionist - Tactics: drape sheet over unseen servant, let it get hit. not examined. 13. Jo Pistachio: Evoker: Tactics, Drape sheet over unseen servant, let it get hit. Does not work as said. Invalid build (dragon magazine). 14: PhraedrusXY: Druid : not examined - first combatant posted. 15: Jo Pistachio: Abjurer: Success: Tactics, prepare by casting explosive runes on stuff. Follow up with reading them. 16: Grizley : IHSAMPTYECM : Ineligible, uses animal growth (too high a level spell): Tactics, Fleshraker + Venomfire 17:Grizley: Summoner Druid Man: Tactics: Die while summoning. 18: DeathWishJoe: Spook the Summoner: Tactics: Go through the adventure invisible and summon swarms for the kill. Cannot defeat miniadventure as posted. Not Examined 19: Jo Pistachio: Conjurer: Tactics: Keep enemies in AoE damaging spell. Currently being examined. Possible issues with manticore tactics. Issues with Snake (immediate action when disabled, etc) 20: Ruthaer: Level 5 Gurth, Level 7 Gurth: Tactics: Use the undead companions to walk through the adventures. Not examined, suspect it wins. 21: PhaedrusXY: Hubert : Tactics: Use a scroll of animate dead for the win. 22: Sentanos: Human Conjurer: I think this loses horribly. 23: Axiomatic Vampire: Samosa: I think this loses horribly. 24: Ruthaer: Feral Cleric 25: BetaSquirrell: Effigy Guy: Makes effigies and walks around, watching them kill things. There are no current rules-based reasons why the effigies cannot be built as they have been. This character now beats some of the encounters (full moon lvl 7 at level 5, planar challenge). 26: Carnivore: Casty the Spellcaster: casts spells, takes names and Kicks Butt ... Tactics: Fell Drain Magic Missiles. Does not work as put forth ... each spell only gives one negative level, not per missile. 27: Carnivore: Scorchy the Spellcaster: casts spells, takes names and Kicks butt ... has not been examined.
Caster Win: 4 (Otherworldly Alterself warmage), (Abjurer, Exploding Runes), (Otherworldly Alterself wizard), (DMM Cleric) Almost Win: 1, (cloistered cleric) Lose: 7 (Dread Necromancer), (Sorcerer), (Enchanter), (Warlock), (Druid), (Summoner Druid Man), (Spook the Summoner) Currently Ineligible/Issues: 7 (Druid with fleshraker - metal armor, etc) (Master of Shrouds - not finished), (Illusionist - tactics not work as described), (Evoker - tactics not work as described, dragon magazine), (Conjurer), (Otherwordly Alterself Pearl of Power - per CustServ, requires houserule), (Druid with Fleshraker - per consensus cannot use animal growth at level 5),
NonCaster Win: 1, (Bela) Almost Win 1: (Meyer Multiclass) Lose: 1 (Generic Fighter) Currently Ineligible: 6 (Merchant of Moscow - Psychic Warrior level), (Jinkas Level 6), (Me too: cheap pricing), (Multiclass Swordsage), (PAO - Per consensus cannot use high level spells)
Concerns: Most wizards have not listed what was in their spellbook and most have no gold to spend on additional spells. This leads me to believe that they do not have a wide range of spells, which flies in the face of almost every post that talks about wizards.
It's not the build that makes them broken, it's how absurdly powerful their spells can be whenused intelligently.
Example: Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over. Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over. Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized. etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
It's not the build that makes them broken, it's how absurdly powerful their spells can be whenused intelligently.
Example: Glitterdust at level 3- combat's over. Black Tentacles at level 7- combat is over. Flesh to Stone at level 11- combat is over/trivialized. etc.
Any smart wizard should be able to solo any CR appropriate encounter (and most several CRs above CR appropriate), and the same applies to druids, clerics, or really any full spellcaster. Prestige classes don't make these classes broken- they make these classes more broken. Their spells make these classes broken
Taking your examples: Glitterdust, the enemies get a save, the range is only 10' radius spread, so concievably cannot get all enemies, does not affect things like shadows or oozes (appropriate enemies for that level), and only lasts a few rounds.
Flesh to Stone: Allows a fort save. Targets only one opponent. Is overcome by spell resistance. A cloud giant (first big monster I grabbed of CR 11) has a fort save of +16, base save for flesh to stone is 16, so the giant needs to roll (on the die) the casters stat mod, plus any possible increases. This spell does not affect undead, etc ...
How is this examples of overpoweredness?
And I am not saying that PrCs make anything broken, I am asking for real examples of something that is broken.
The fact that full spellcasters can easily handle most enemies they might encounter makes them broken. Sure, there are certain matches that your usual strategy can't handle, but spellcasters can prepare alot more than just one strategy. Most non-spellcasting classes can't handle situations where their main strategy isn't effective as well as spellcasters can. Of course, it all comes down to how good the guy who plays the spellcaster good at preparing spells. It takes quite a bit of insight and reading through alot of books.
The "overpowered" nature of casters comes mainly from their ability to exploit whatever weakness their enemies have. You picked a critter with a strong Fort save as an example: well, a smart wizard will probably have spells that exploit something their build lacks, like Plane Shift for weak Will, or Power Word Blind for low HP, Web for Reflex, etc etc. Casters have much a lot more combat-ending options available to them, as opposed to a combative character that has to beat his enemies down with HP damage.
"Overpowered" is a relative term. Full casters are generally going to be "overpowered" compared to noncasters because they generally have a lot more versatility.
Look, the previous examples are perfectly valid. The fact that a few appropriate encounters happen to bypass glitterdust in no way diminishes the spell's ability to end an encounter. "A few rounds" is more than sufficient to destroy just about anything. Against a giant, use a will save spell instead. Or, just polymorph into the giant after buffing and beat the snot out of him yourself; ask the fighter to hold your cloak for you, after all your familiar is tag-teaming the giant with you and is too important for cloak-holding duty.
Moreover, if you consider a druid a full caster, we don't need to be having this discussion. A well-played Druid with a wolf companion is capable of putting out far more damage than any non-ToB melee class at first level. That is in addition to healing, buffing, AND DD spells. You said you didn't want to hear druid 20, well too bad, because that is the answer.
Spellcasting quite simply breaks the generally accepted game conventions that everyone else, including most monsters, play by. By forcing a single save of the caster's choosing, a combat can effectively end. Then all one needs to do is pump that DC to obscene levels. On the other hand, arcane spellcasting and wildshape specifically are able to duplicate the stats of most monsters in the game in one way or another. Alter Self (Troglodyte) plus mage armor, for instance, while a terrible combination overall, means the lowly wizard has an almost unhittable AC at 3rd level. Translation: whatever the party is fighting, an intelligent caster can turn into its bane. DnD is a complicated game of rock-paper-scissors, and casters can be any one they need in a given circumstance.
Finally, coming onto the board and asking to be spoon-fed is a little rude. You want us to show you a 1st level druid with standard point buy? If you are interested in seeing how casters are broken, why not build some standard PHB ones yourself and see what happens in play. Better yet, hang around a while, read some posts, and start to get a feel for just what casters can do at any level.
Wait, scratch that. You want a "over-powered" caster? Go read the PHB's spell section.
Have you read the Cheater of Mystra, or the Shadowcraft Mage/Killer Gnome thread? Or the Planar Shepherd Thread? Or the core-only, "How is Magic not broken, again?" thread? Or a gazillion other caster threads in Surreal's index?
I'd post links, but I'm busy and don't have time to do your research for you.
You can reproduce the "casting in an AMF" part of the Cheater of Mystra with a core Archmage by using Mastery of Shaping on an AMF. A "gish" with a level of Archmage could buff himself to high hell, walk/fly next to his enemy and supress all of their magic items, then pound them into dust using this trick.
Also, anyone who can cast Lesser Planar Binding can call a Nightmare, which has Etherealness and Astral Projection at will, which is broken as hell. You can basically make yourself invulnerable using these two abilities, and have never ending charges in all your magic items, etc.
Check out some of the forms you can take with Alter Self, Polymorph, and the brokenness of Shapechange, also. There are links to compilations of forms for those spells in Surreal's Index.
Edit: See also Shivering Touch, Miasma, Blinding Spittle, and many other outright broken spells.
Here is a compilation of some of the most broken combos in the game. See how many are non-casters.
Don't have time to read through the entire thread and check all the abilities: how does Cheater of Mystra cast in an AMF? (not trying to dispute anything here, just curious)
PHB's spell section.
