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Switch to Forum Live View Fiendbinder: CO Perspective
7 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2006 - 9:02PM #1
PonTelon
Date Joined: Sep 1, 2004
Posts: 320
For those of you unsure of what Fiendbinder is, it's Tome of Magic's attempt at the archetype that WotC keeps trying to have, and failing. Someone who summons and uses demons/devils.

Requirements:
Alignment: Any nongood
Skills: Knowledge(the planes) 10, Truespeak 10 ranks, Speak Language(Infernal, abyssal)
Spells: Ability to cast summon monster IV

The languages are easy enough. Unless your group is strict about starter languages, just have an inteligence of 14. Otherwise, you are spending 4 skill points to learn Abyssal and Infernal.

Knowledge(the planes) comes with most(but not all) casters. If the class of choice doesn't get it, either Human Paragon(see below) or the feat Educated(Players Guide to Faerun I believe).

Here is the fun one, Truespeak 10 ranks. Two ways to go about it are either 1 level of Human Paragon for Adaptive Learning(Truespeak). Since human paragon gets any 10 class skills they want as class skills, just grab Truespeak. As a caster, if you have taken 1 level of Human Paragon, grab the other two for +2 caster level, +2 to a stat, and a bonus feat.
The other more obvious way of getting Truespeak as a class skill without multiclassing Truespeaker is from Tome of Battle: Truename Training.

To get Summon Monster IV you have quite a few options. Either level 7 prepared caster, or 8th level spontaneous caster. Cleric, Wizard, Sorcerer, and Archivist are all decent choices. One more obscure way is to go Warlock 5 Master of Masks 4 as an entrance.

So, now you are in the PrC, so what?

The So What?: Why take Fiendbinder
Fiendbinder is perhaps not the most powerful choice of PrC ever, but not all PrCs can be Incantrix. Fiendbinder has it's own set of negatives and positives:

Positives:
-d6 HD: Better than Wiz/Sorc normally.
-Powerful Demons(See Below).
-No limit(besides skill check) Summon demon/devil from Call Forth Fiend
-Swift Die Hard feat(Bind Tormented Soul) 1/day
-Standard Action: Baatezu Traits or Tanar'ri Traits. DR, immunities and resistances. Lasts up to 10 minutes.
-Double Command at 9th level. Command 2 fiends or give one two orders.
- +5 Cha-based skills with fiends
-Summon Fiends: At 10th level, summon either Baatezu legion(1d6 bone devils or 1d4 barbed devils) or Tanar'ri horde(1d6 vrocks or 1d4 hezrous) as a full-round 1/day. It doesn't state how long they stay out.

Negatives:
-d6 HD: Worst if you were a cleric before
-1/2 BAB: No biggie for Wiz/Sorc, but Cleric loses out a bit.
-Skill focused even though only 2+int. Have to do Truespeak checks to order fiends
-Lose of 3 caster levels. 4 if you used Human Paragon to get Truespeak.
-Every demon costs 10% of starting gold for that level.


Demons/Devils per ECL(assuming Wiz/Cleric/Archivist, +1 for Sorc)
Babou Demon CR: 8 at ECL 8
Spoiler: Show

At-will darkness, see invis, and dispel magic.
Slime destroys items, particilarly non-magical ones.
Sneak Attack +2d6.
My Opinion: Decent for a rogue-type. Early level dispell magic battery. One of the few with CR=ECL.

Succubus CR: 7 ECL 9
Spoiler: Show

Spell-likes with DCs in the 20s. Most Charm/Suggestion based.
Energy Drain-but requires grapple
Alternate form- easier to take her into city settings. Surely some abuse can be found here(check out all the alter self threads)
Tongues- can be used as translater
My Opinion: While cool, not the most optimized. She's not bad when you get her, but she has no reuse at higher levels, since her spell-likes and energy drain DCs aren't going up.

Hellcat devil CR: 7 ECL 10
Spoiler: Show

Wow, decent one.
Pounce: We all know how much fun this is.
Invisible in Light: Automatically invisible as long as it's not total darkness. Great for survivability. Cannot hit what they cannot see.
Track: Who needs a dog when you have a demon?
My Opinion: While rather powerful for a long time, it's +13 to attack might be a hinderance as you get higher level. Even then, it's still a decent scout for you.

Vrock demon CR: 9 ECL 11
Spoiler: Show

Decent fighter
Mirror Image and Telekinesis. 1/day Heroism
Spores: Auto-damage over time.
Screech: Decent, however it effects you and your allies as well.
My Opinion:Decent fighter addition. Telekinesis can be used to pretty good effect. Again, like with the hellcat, +15 to attack at this level is good, later it might not be as good. NOTE: Buy 3 of them. Have them do their dance. Using non-spell-likes isn't on the list of commands, but if your DM allows it, this is a decent choice.

Cauchemar nightmare CR:11 ECL 12
Spoiler: Show

Mount-flying. Nuff said.
Decent fighter-better attacks than Vrock, but no DR or anything like that.
Smoke: Used wisely this can be a powerful tool.
My Opinion: VERY good choice. Never hurts to have a flying mount, especially one that can make smoke screens and fight well. What? A caster-mount build? NEVER!

Retriever demon CR:11 ECL 13
Spoiler: Show

Eye Rays: 12d6 Reflex half. Either Electricity, Fire or Cold. Pretrify on fort fail.
Find Target: Find any creature/item on any plane. It has to have an item of the creature or seen/touched creature/item. Better than Hellcat if already seen target.
Construct: No DR, construct immunities. Good to stop demon killers. Also note: no evil subtype. Oh yea, no need to breathe/eat.
Improved Grab
My Opinion:
Decent to grab, if nothing else than not putting all your eggs in one basket. Magic Circle Against Evil doesn't effect this guy. The Rays are good, and Find Target is decent as well. Worth the money, IMHO.

Hezrou demon CR: 11 ECL 14
Spoiler: Show

Spell-likes and Stench DCs 18-21s.
Melee-focus
My Opinion:
Been there done that. DCs and melee don't scale well. Decent at their level, but we are thinking ahead, aren't we?

Barbed Devil CR: 11 ECL 15
Spoiler: Show

Good HP
Mediocre Melee
Barbed Defense-when attacked, does damage to attacker!
Scorching Ray at will. Only 2 rays, but still. Extra artilary when they cannot get up into melee.
Impale if manage a grapple.
My Opinion:
One of the better melee-ist fiends. Scorching Ray at will is one of it's saving graces, as is barbed defence. Even if it has problems hitting higher level stuff(+14 attack) it still can do damage by them hitting it. "Tank" pet.

Ice devil CR: 13 ECL 16
Spoiler: Show

Large Size:longer reach is never a bad idea
Fear/Slow: Decent abilities. DCs in the 21-22 range.
Good spell-likes: At will—cone of cold (DC 20), fly, ice storm (DC 19), greater teleport (self plus 50 pounds of objects only), persistent image (DC 20), unholy aura (DC 23), wall of ice (DC 19)
Telepathy, SR, REGENERATION
My Opinion: One of the first truely amazing choices. With +20 melee hit, they are decent in combat, and have larger reach from being large size. With Fly at will, no one in your party will ever have to buy boots of flight again. Persistent Image and wall of ice at will are also great things for battlefield control. Added Regeneration 5 is just even better.

Marilith demon CR: 17 ECL 17
Spoiler: Show

Large Size- again, reach
True Seeing- always on? Sweet.
Improved Grab- Except she will probably actually be able to do it since she has +29 on her grapple check.
Constrict- see above. 4d6+13 damage, and Fort or go unconscious
Good Melee- +25 on main attack, over 200 HP, and AC 29(mleh)
Spell-likes: Including but not limited to: align weapon, blade barrier (DC 23), magic weapon, project image (DC 23), see invisibility, telekinesis (DC 22).
My Opinion: Great. Simply amazing. You went thorugh 10 levels for this baby, bind her with great pleasure. Then, grab a few more. Crowd control, small buffs(see invis, magic weapons, align weapon) combined with amazing melee and true-seeing make this an excelent pet. Even when it's melee tappers off(aka mid to high level Epic), it's still a good one for it's spell-likes.


Cover Your Weaknesses:

Magic Circle Against Evil: If your DM considers your "pets" "ongood summoned creatures" then make sure you have at least one Retriever, since it's not evil(at least not the subtype). Another idea would just have your Babau spamming Dispel Magic until it goes away.

Silence: Silence would stop your ordering of your troops. Tough one. Bard spell level 1 Amplify cancels it, as does your Babou spamming Dispel Magic. Or just take Mindbender level 1 for 100ft Telepathy.

Melee: A lot of your fiends are melee based, so their useful-ness goes away REALLY quickly. Grab cheap Belt of Strength to help up their damage/attacks. Another option is enchanting their items stronger.

DCs: A lot of your fiends have low DCs on their spells/abilities. However, grabbing Cloaks of Charisma or Periapts of Wisdoms can help up these DCs, since most are Cha-based spell-like users and most other abilities use Con. And Con will up their HP as well.

Anything else anyone can think of discussing on this? Any other abilities of the fiends I missed that are worth mentioning?
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 25, 2006 - 11:40PM #2
Rokku
Date Joined: Apr 10, 2005
Posts: 175
I'm actually a big fan of this PrC -- it's deeply flavorful as well as not at all bad.

I'm kinda surprised it hasn't gotten more attention here.
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 12:24AM #3
PhoenixInferno
Date Joined: Aug 26, 2003
Posts: 448
Well, the Truenaming mechanic is cool, but its VERY hard to use effectively. That's probably why it doesn't get a lot of press. I like that you can get Vrocks - they do that crazy dancing thing that messes you up, don't they? You have a 2/3 chance that you'll summon enough Vrocks to do it.
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 6:09AM #4
Bonzai
Date Joined: Oct 4, 2004
Posts: 466
Plus the loss of 3 caster levels hurt. Still, I fully intend to try out an Archavist/Fiend Binder build one day.
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 7:17AM #5
Ed-Zero
Date Joined: Apr 8, 2005
Posts: 88

PhoenixInferno]Well, the Truenaming mechanic is cool, but its VERY hard to use effectively. That's probably why it doesn't get a lot of press. I like that you can get Vrocks - they do that crazy dancing thing that messes you up, don't they? You have a 2/3 chance that you'll summon enough Vrocks to do it.


That's exactly why you use the Mothercyst feat and spells.. take over any demon that you summon permanently and never have to use a true naming check again? Hec wrote:

Well, the Truenaming mechanic is cool, but its VERY hard to use effectively. That's probably why it doesn't get a lot of press. I like that you can get Vrocks - they do that crazy dancing thing that messes you up, don't they? You have a 2/3 chance that you'll summon enough Vrocks to do it.[/quote]
That's exactly why you use the Mothercyst feat and spells.. take over any demon that you summon permanently and never have to use a true naming check again? Heck yeah!

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 7:26AM #6
PonTelon
Date Joined: Sep 1, 2004
Posts: 320

PhoenixInferno]Well, the Truenaming mechanic is cool, but its VERY hard to use effectively. That's probably why it doesn't get a lot of press. I like that you can get Vrocks - they do that crazy dancing thing that messes you up, don't they? You have a 2/3 chance that you'll summon enough Vrocks to do it.


Well, the fiends from fiendbinder are permanent. Unless you are talking about their summon ability or their summon horde/legion ability.

One semi-nice thing about Fiendbinder is that it doesn't suffer from the reset of truenamer's problems. The DCs are pretty much set in stone. No need for progressively harder and harder DCS. You know your goals, if you can hit them, then you will wrote:

Well, the Truenaming mechanic is cool, but its VERY hard to use effectively. That's probably why it doesn't get a lot of press. I like that you can get Vrocks - they do that crazy dancing thing that messes you up, don't they? You have a 2/3 chance that you'll summon enough Vrocks to do it.[/quote]
Well, the fiends from fiendbinder are permanent. Unless you are talking about their summon ability or their summon horde/legion ability.

One semi-nice thing about Fiendbinder is that it doesn't suffer from the reset of truenamer's problems. The DCs are pretty much set in stone. No need for progressively harder and harder DCS. You know your goals, if you can hit them, then you will be ok.

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 8:01AM #7
Bill_Bisco_Average_Adventurer
Date Joined: Sep 7, 2002
Posts: 542
Thanks for making the thread. I also enjoy that you mentioned that the "Summon Fiends" ability has no listed time limit.

A part of the problem with the fiendbinder is that you put gold into these creatures, and you can't even fully use them. For most of your career you can only command 1 at a time.

However, how exactly the fiends carry out the orders in not exactly expressed. For instance. Can you Command each one of them to Defend you. If they kill the enemy that was attacking you, will they defend you from the second enemy that was attacking you? Secondly, can you just give them the defend command and leave them there forever?

Could you order a fiend to defend another fiend if s/he's attacked? Could you order a fiend to defend every fiend? I think the book tries to severely limit the usefulness of the creatures, but I don't see a reason that you could order a chain of telling the creatures to defend themselves.

A part of the problem with this class is that you don't want your minions to die. And, they can become a burden if you have to prevent them from dying. You paid gold into these darn things and you don't want to lose that investment.
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 8:07AM #8
Ed-Zero
Date Joined: Apr 8, 2005
Posts: 88

Bill Bisco: Average Adventurer]However, how exactly the fiends carry out the orders in not exactly expressed. For instance. Can you Command each one of them to Defend you. If they kill the enemy that was attacking you, will they defend you from the second enemy that was attacking you? Secondly, can you just give them the defend command and leave them there forever?

Could you order a fiend to defend another fiend if s/he's attacked? Could you order a fiend to defend every fiend? I think the book tries to severely limit the usefulness of the creatures, but I don't see a reason that you could order a chain of telling the creatures to defend themselves.


This *might* be handled with the Mother Cyst spell line.. If you permanently control a creatures brain and every action that you do, I imagine that you'd be able to state "Attack anyone who attacks me" or "My other demon is getting badly hurt, go help wrote:

However, how exactly the fiends carry out the orders in not exactly expressed. For instance. Can you Command each one of them to Defend you. If they kill the enemy that was attacking you, will they defend you from the second enemy that was attacking you? Secondly, can you just give them the defend command and leave them there forever?

Could you order a fiend to defend another fiend if s/he's attacked? Could you order a fiend to defend every fiend? I think the book tries to severely limit the usefulness of the creatures, but I don't see a reason that you could order a chain of telling the creatures to defend themselves.[/quote]
This *might* be handled with the Mother Cyst spell line.. If you permanently control a creatures brain and every action that you do, I imagine that you'd be able to state "Attack anyone who attacks me" or "My other demon is getting badly hurt, go help him!".

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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 8:18AM #9
Kresalak
Date Joined: Jun 29, 2005
Posts: 202
The spell Monstrous Thrall gives permanent controll over a creature. You want to be a cleric (or archivst)/fiendbinder, and cast it on your mariliths.
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7 years ago  ::  Sep 26, 2006 - 8:42AM #10
NineInchNall
Date Joined: Jun 22, 2003
Posts: 380
As a Wizard/Fiendbinder you'll be able to get to mindrape at 20th if you don't lose any other caster levels. Summon; reformat mental hard drive; profit.

I also don't think there's any reason not to go Wizard 5/Incantatrix 5/Fiendbinder 10.
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