I don't have access to the Double Diamond Triangle series. If I did, I'd probably start mining it for info. After looking up blurbs and reviews, it seems to also deal with Bloodforges, and is set in Konigheim. This could no doubt be quite interesting.
Roxanna as a half-elf... yeah, that would do.
Now the Yuan-Ti are interesting. The Gorgons in the game have the snake hair of the Medusae (in D&D terms; of course in mythology Medusa was simply one of the Gorgons), but their lower bodies are serpentine, like the Yuan-Ti Abomination and similar Y-T spawned creatures. Maybe these are some Medusa/Yuan-Ti hybrids.
Looking at the old Grand History of the Realms, the tales and maps of prehistoric Faerun show that the ancestors of the sarrukh sprang up along the Golden Water, and spread west into the nation of Okoth. I wonder if they ever crossed the Golden Water into the Utter East, or if they didn't, what stopped them? The maps are curiously empty over the Utter East, but then, they really only deal with Faerun. The Horde CS monster lists mention aarakocra in the Yehimal, so maybe it was the aearee, or maybe the fey, going by various B&M creatures, or some Zakharan or Kara-Turan creator race (I don't know much about them).
What do you think of the Horde CS's Gate Of Iron? It was built over 4000 years ago (so c. -2600 DR) by people south of the Dustwall (Durpar and Ulgarth, but the Utter East wouldn't be unreasonable to add as they'd be just as threatened) to hold back the Imaskari. The scale and power of the thing suggest not some roaming tribes but a few fairly powerful magically advanced nations.
In fact, it's been said that Ulgarth was originally settled by the Imaskari, while the Durpari had been subjugated by them. Presumably the Gate worked, though that's unclear, so the settlement and subjugation must have come before.
Which suggests that the two nations (now Durpar and Ulgarth) revolted against the Imaskari. So a kingdom of renegade Imaskari Artificers with all their magical power, portal and golem technology, possibly aided by refugee Kadar Geomancers and their earth magic, all raising their runestones and portals and golems in a fusion of magic and mysticism to create great armies to beat back the Raurin Empire and secure their freedom.
Then bankrupted themselves to build the Gate of Iron to keep the Raurin Empire out, and they were weakened. The Mulan slaves revolted a few short centuries later, the Raurin empire fell, and many refugee Imaskari fled south into their old enemies' lands, now fallen into barbarism with the weakened states and influx of refugees.
The old magical power of the Imaskari Artificers and Kadar Geomancers were lost and forgotten, until centuries, millenia later, some displaced Northmen and Ffolk arrived and rediscovered it.
I am supposing that some of you on this thread have read the Double Diamond Triangle series. I keep seeing the first two books at my local used book store. Was it any good? I would like to know before I buy them.
I am supposing that some of you on this thread have read the Double Diamond Triangle series. I keep seeing the first two books at my local used book store. Was it any good? I would like to know before I buy them.
Actaually, neither myself or BadCatMan have read them. :D
They are not canon, so we are avoiding them. I would like to get my hands on the other novel set here, Faces of Deception, which is canon.
We are just trying to use established lore for the region, which is sparse, and combine it with other established lore from the nearby campaign areas of the Old Empires, The Horde, Zakhara, and even Kara-Tur (the Malatra region and their gods).
BadCatMan is being nice enough to play the game, which he seems to be enjoying, to help us filll-in some holes. That 'filler material' should not be taken as canon. When this thread has run its course, I plan on compiling everything into an "Utter East Campaign" Netbook, with a few PrCs based on the evidence here (the Geomancers we will update to 3e), like the Knightrangers of Edanvale, or the Twilight Magus originally from Mulhorand.
@BadCatMan - I really like using the Gate of Iron in this as well, good call. I have some TRULY ANCIENT history for this entire region, that I worked on for the K-T thread. If you care to look at it, you can view it HERE. I try to keep everything I write for a region consistant with neighboring regions, and use lore from each in the others, giving it a more 'real' feel (just like Faerûn).
The Rakshasa are a VERY important part of the early history in the geographical area spanning the northeastern coast of Zakhara, right on through the lower K-T setting and the Malatra. I tie this directly into the Black Panther cult in K-T, AND the god Kiga, who was a leopard huntress goddess of the Kadar and Nog people. I have both of those beings as Rakshasa Raja who 'perhaps' ascended to demi-god status, and started their cults in order to better control their human minions.
This also ties into the History of Tabot as well, but I will need to discuss that with LordKarsus.
Anyhow, the Rakshasa were eventually defeated after their Rajas and Maharaja were encased in ice in the Yehimals by the magic of the Maraloi, which expired after the Maraloi were gone. They have 'history' with the Serpentfolk in the area of the Uttereast, but its WAAAY back in the past, even by Imaskari reckoning. Something to do with the Cat/Reptile wars, which predate even Toril itself (Set and Baast have been at it a LONG time). I figure Kiga probably controlled the northern sempadan at one point, but then after her 'ascension', Herne absorbed her and took the portfolio and re-named the region after himself. Of course, we know that Herne himself was absorbed at one point by Malar, but that doesn't mean that the Northmen wouldn't have known him by this more ancient name when they arrived.
I had planned on the Serpent Valley Yuan-ti ruins to be the remains of a Sarruhk base in this region, dating back to the war with the Rakshasas (abandoned circa -15,000 DR?).
Faces of Deception was not too bad from what I remember. It has been too many years since I last read it to give you a good feel for what I think of the book.
It is only one book in the Lost Empires series. The one thing I hated about the series is whatever the characters were looking for (and found) then became lost again by the end of each book. I think that is why I ended up selling my copies. Anyways, I think I might at least grab a new copy of Faces of Deception just because I like Troy Denning's writing.
The ISBN is 0786911832. I think there is a copy of it at my local used book store.
Borders is pretty good at getting me whatever I want pretty quickly, as long as its still in print. The only book I ever had trouble getting my hands on is Master of Chains, which I'm dying to read after a thread a while ago (no RSE's!). :D
Well... coming from Doctor Who fandom, I find canon to be a very subjective thing. After numerous arguments over the various strands of comics, books, audios and the tv series itself and no possibility of official word on the matter, fandom collectively gave up on the idea. Everyone now has their own 'personal canon' of material that they hold to be true within the world, which leads to such extremes as some people excluding whole seasons of the original series that they don't like, and others including cartoons that appeared on iced lolly wrappers in the 70s, wherein space-ships were giant icy-poles. Shrug.
Of course, we have official word on canon for FR, and games and Double Diamond aren't in.
But... Earlier: A few vague references to the Utter East, referring variously to Halruua or Kara-Tur or other things. Later mapped but not populated with landmarks. 1996: Blood & Magic released. Invents the Bloodforge wars, and names all the lands of the Utter East (Edenvale, Doegan, Konigheim). Slaps generic western European fantasy cultures into what should have been an exotic southern/eastern land. Officially not canon. 1998 (January to July): Double Diamond Triangle Saga published. References the Bloodforge Wars and uses Konigheim (at least). Antagonists seek a Bloodforge. Officially not canon, but rumoured to become so as current time-line catches up. 1998 (November): Faces Of Deception published. References the Bloodforge Wars and uses or references many of the nations invented in the game. Author or map artist mixes up the obscure game map and moves Edenvale. Creates the Ffolk connection, and maybe the Northmen too. Officially canon. 2001: Monsters Of Faerun references a few events of DDTS (see Doppelganger). Apparent beginning of DDTS becoming canon. 2007: Grand History Of The Realms forthcoming. Dates the Bloodforge Wars, might have some more info. Officially canon.
So really, this entire land was formed out of non-canonical material, specifically the computer game, but it is slowly becoming canon as canonical sources reference it. If an official Realms-writer sees our speculations and references it in official canon work, then that too will become canon (crosses fingers). The Utter East would be next to impossible to fill out without non-canon material. (Ugh, too many uses of the word 'canon'.)
I was just curious on this obscure fringe region, but researching it with an eye toward creating a special 'anything goes' (like psionics, or ToB, or ToM or Incarnum or Samurai or whatever) realm for my online shared-world FR campaign. I've previous examined all I could lay my hands on for such obscure subjects as Sossal and Anchorome and Psionics. There's a good sense of discovery in these projects. So I'll probably contribute to that Netbook.
Yeah, I'm enjoying the game. Though it seems to have been a bit of a flop when it was released, so I might be the only one.
Now Rakshasa we know live in the Dustwall Mountains, lording it over the Grey Orcs there. They're also active in Durpar (SS2e), and further away in Mulhorand (OE) and Chessenta (MM3). The Mulhorandi Rakshasa were said to come from a homeland east of the Raurin. The Horde CS suggests there are Rakshasa to be found on the Katakoro Plateau. I'm not sure what KT or AQ might say on them, but it seems likely that there is a Rakshasa community living in the A-Ling Shan, spreading east and west, and probably south too.
I have it where the Rakshasa started out in Zakhara (which was mostly jungles and swamps back then), but were kicked out when the genies gained their freedom (if you've read the post I linked to above). They later ruled an area going from Northeast Zakhara (the Jungle regions) into the Sempadan and on into the malatra region in southern K-T, and as far north as Guge and as far south as Ayfal (and perhaps a few other smaller islands). They inadvertantly brought the Vedic Pantheon into FR, by carelessly leaving 'reading material' around for their 'herd animals' (humans). They had wars with the Sarruhk/Yuan-ti, and then the Vedic Pantheon once they were invited in by Ao (because they had worshippers by that point), and finally they were entrapped by the Maraloi, who used a High magic (!) Ritual to encase them in ice inside of their Yehimel Citadel. Since the disappearance of the Maraloi around -10,000 DR, the spell weakened and eventually collapsed, and the Rajas and Mahrajah are free. However, they have lost all of their former lands, and thus began trying to rebuild their ancient empire (I peg the 8000 year-old Temple of Saigai as one of there ruins, BTW).
They haven't been overly succesful, due to the inteference of various gods and other Planar beings (Baast has a grudge against them {they turned on her}, Set hates them, the entire Vedic Pantheon wants them dead, and the western fiends (demons) and eastern fiends (Oni) don't like the competition. However, they have quite a few 'cat cults' up and running throughout the world. Unfortunetly for them, they are no longer a cohesive group since being frozen, and they each follow their own agenda. The Maharajah, who still dwells in his palace in the Yehimels, is still a being of incredible power (Rajahs are the equivalent of Demon Lords, and the Maharajah is a Demon Prince).
Bringing the Rakshasa into the Old Empires region isn't such a hot idea - it reminds me too much of the Wonder Cats battles with Mum-Ra.
None of that has anything to do with the current state of the Utter East, however. I remember another possible PrC from a thread I contributed to - Sandruids: they combine some of the abilities of desert druids with Sand Elementalists from the Al-Qadim setting.
If we do enough work on this BCM, maybe WotC will buy it and churn out another 190 pg. sourcebook.
The lore for this 'Forgotten Realm' is a long time in coming.
Considering how unlikely it is to get a proper regional sourcebook these days, that would be a freaking miracle. :D
Say, the Mar have been mentioned a lot, but are there any sourcebooks where they referenced? I can't find anything easily findable in any FR, KT or AQ sourcebooks I can lay my hands on.
I've completed the Circle of Order campaign, next I'll do Tartyron, and post the whole thing when that's done. This should lead to some interesting clues about the ancient history of the land. (Fortunately each campaign is only 3 missions, and the same maps are used on both sides.) I suspect the three lawful elementalist druids of the Circle of Order - Lady of Tides, Lord of Lands and Lord of Flame) kicked out their hypothetical Lord of Skies colleague and imprisoned him deep beneath the ground, a metaphorical torture and death for a creature of air, where he died and returned as Tartyron.
Here's some notes on the three Realms. Going by the Faces Of Deception map, these may be now the Free Cities Of Parsanic or northern Doegan, maybe both.
Realm Of Tides: A cluster of small sandy islands joined by bridges, with palm trees and grass huts. Keep is a round fortified building with a single blue domed-top bound by white columns.
Realm Of Lands: Plateaus and rises and drops in the land, broken and maze-like, with channels and gorges between them. Bridges and stairways cut into the stone connect them. Open grasslands and stands of trees and bushes. Cave mouths shaped like fiendish skulls lead down into connecting tunnels - the Mines of Mystery. Thatch-roofed stone cottages and farms. High Cradle Keep is a spiky grey stone round fortress. Wolves and banshees roam.
Realm Of Lands: Underground active volcanic environment of rocks and streams of lava and magma, small volcanoes and flame spouts. Roc nest. Houses or some other buildings carved out of hemispherical stone structures.
I like the Realm of Tides description, and the Realm of Lands one as well. I'm going to try and get Faces of Deception before I elaborate on the cities, though.
BadCatMan wrote:
Say, the Mar have been mentioned a lot, but are there any sourcebooks where they referenced? I can't find anything easily findable in any FR, KT or AQ sourcebooks I can lay my hands on.
AFAIK, only in the novels. Perhaps The Sage, or one of the designers, might have a little more for us. I believe the term 'Mar' will be used in at least one entry in GHotR, but I can't be certain.
Orderd Faces of Deception today from Borders. Because it is out-of-print they're charging me $12.50!
Ah well, I hope it's at least a good read.
I made a NEW MAP HERE, let me know what you think of the placements. I was working off of five different sources (four canon and the game), so its a blend of them all.
I also included a smaller print-ready version, and added a scale on both for ease of use.
