|
4 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2009 - 5:50PM
#1
|
Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2008
|
A few reasons.
1) It means everyone is a renegade wizard for the entirety of the heroic tier.
2) You'd have to wait until paragon level to finally play the class you rolled?
3) Limits multi-classing for arcane characters and makes everyone cookie cutter as every white robe would have the same paragon class.
My thoughts: All below would have controller aspects.
Black robes would be arcane strikers a la warlocks (odd isn't it that in the books most wizards with "mentors" and "masters" were black robes...) This also plays into their desire for quick power focusing on illusion and necromancy.
White robes would be arcane leaders kind of replacing bards (as krynn never had them) this works well as the abjuration and scrying could fullfill a bardic niche.
Red robes: pure arcane controller, most phb of the "wizard" class.
This allows much freedom for wizards of high sorcery to multiclass and take paragon paths to make each character unique.
----------------
Or....They're all just wizard/controllers but are differenciated by the "at will" powers they take similar to what all classes get now (dark pact, fey, infernal, for example)
----------------
The benefit of the first is that black robes for example could be focus on illusion or necromancy, whites: abjuration type spells or scrying etc...
thoughts?
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 12, 2009 - 11:04PM
#2
|
|
|
Or everyone could be assumed to have a robe colour from level one but you only get the benefits of specialisation as your paragon path.
Or robe colours could just be done as a background and are otherwise almost entirely flavour.
Or robe colours could be a feat that give you bonuses to certain spells.
I'm more inclined towards a dedicated "Knight" class with Knight of Solamnia/Neraka PPs than I am to mechanical effect for the Orders of High Sorcery. Especially given that warlocks, sorcerors and wizards should all be able to join the Orders.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2009 - 2:39AM
#3
|
|
|
hehehehe Tobi is a good boy.
it will be a paragon path in all consideration
and no apprentice wears a colored robe until after the test, they usually wear the color of their master until such time.
( remembers some dumb image of Raistlin as a young apprentice wearing a white colored robe)
in the FRPG we got a dark pact for the warlocks, in the dlpg we will likely get a new wizard class feature explaining it all.
ad something for sorcerers.
the knights of whatever, well It kind is abit off.
at least 3 active armies that contain aleast two ranks.
making feats or awarded powers at promotion time....
t
a mask everyone has at least two of, one they wear in public and another they wear in private.....
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2009 - 8:29AM
#4
|
Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2008
|
or sorcerers, warlocks (except moon pact..? star pact?) could just be what the DL setting classifies as renegades.If everything "core" about DL is fluff (white robe wizard doesn't mean anything different than some wizard who wears a white robe in forgotten realms) why bother honestly?
Waiting for paragon path for a "wizard of high sorcery" goes against the fluff of the setting, and as I said screws heroic tier campaigns.I'm curious if any of you have read the 1ed campaign guide for dragonlance that had all the different rules for wizards and knights of solamnia?
-------
My impression is people against using the rules to deal with the core "classes" of dragonlance are the same type of people who are against providing combat stats for dieties, "You can just RP you don't need rules!"
am I wrong?
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 13, 2009 - 6:24PM
#5
|
Date Joined:
May 28, 2008
|
Just because there are WoHS paragon paths doesn't mean that all WoHS have these paragon paths.
Looking at all PP linked to organizations/backgrounds/regions in 4E Forgotten Realms and Eberron settings gives you a pretty good indication of this.
So choosing a PP called "White Robed Wizard of High Sorcery" would mean being fully dedicated to the ideals and strengths of the White Robes; to make it your specialty and your focus. Doesn't mean you don't belong to the order when you're into the heroic tiers or if you choose another PP.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 14, 2009 - 11:06PM
#6
|
|
|
My impression is people against using the rules to deal with the core "classes" of dragonlance are the same type of people who are against providing combat stats for dieties, "You can just RP you don't need rules!"
am I wrong?
No, I'm saying that if we get a 4th Edition Dragonlance Player's Handbook it's only going to have X number of pages. We're going to get, at best, two new classes and two new races (more likely one class, one build, and two races) and I just don't think that fully-fleshed Heroic Tier mechanics for the Orders of High Sorcery is the best use of that space.
I'll also put this out there, that we don't WANT our wizards to be bound in by mechanics. Flavour-wise, every legal good-aligned magic-user is a white robe. Do you really want every good-aligned arcane character you build in Dragonlance to have to take the White Robe class / build / paragon path / feat? That sounds pretty boring to me.
It's far better to have it be flavour - you can be a member of whatever order for free, it's all fluff - and then let you get the benefits of that order by buying into specific feats, or paragon paths, or what have you, but still let you maintain membership if you want to build your character some other way.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:11AM
#7
|
Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2008
|
My assumption is that people who would buy a DL campaign source book would be big DL fans and would want to play as closely to the style of a DL game as they could.
This being the case, I would assume a player with a good aligned wizard *not* wanting to be a WoHS would be the exception, not the rule.
My anology would be player character drow in FR. Players like to play renegade drow a la drizzt...but that doesn't mean that WotC should change the fluff and the rules to reflect that in fact *most* drow are chaotic good rangers! Or that evil drow are the minority and that the default class for drow is ranger.
So too, a DL campaign guide shouldn't follow the path that says, "Oh, we don't want to discourage players who want to be a white robe WoHS infernal warlock/paladin or a Crown Knight kender bard/barbarian by making actual classes in dragonlance unique."
Because nothing says, "Dragonlance" like a Kender Barbarian Knight of the Crown amirite? Or letting a wizard get a +1 to damage on a full moon really captures the essence of what makes a black robe mage stand out from some guy who wears a black robe in the Greyhawk setting for example.
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:40PM
#8
|
Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2001
|
1) It means everyone is a renegade wizard for the entirety of the heroic tier.
2) You'd have to wait until paragon level to finally play the class you rolled?
3) Limits multi-classing for arcane characters and makes everyone cookie cutter as every white robe would have the same paragon class.
All very good reasons, and all right. If we use Raistlin as an example, he was a full-fledged Wizard of High Sorcery by the time that he was 6th level. You don't want folks waiting until paragon levels to play such an iconic role, especially since many games don't even make it that high in level.
There are alternatives. First, moon magic can become a feat or can be saved for an advanced paragon path (perhaps a moon disciple). Secondly, spells set aside for each order might be accessed in a similar manner as the spellplague powers. Take a feat, and you gain powers appropriate for your order.
Likewise, paragon paths are better suited for more specialized roles, like the Kingfishers and Renegade Hunters.
Or everyone could be assumed to have a robe colour from level one but you only get the benefits of specialisation as your paragon path.
Or robe colours could just be done as a background and are otherwise almost entirely flavour.
That's pretty much what they were in AD&D, with some minor differences in spellcasting tables (in DLA) and schools. Many players like taking the Test, though. I would leave this as optional and let the DM and players decide if it is background or if the player will go through the Test during play.
Or robe colours could be a feat that give you bonuses to certain spells.
That would work too. So maybe Black Robes get a +2 with spells that have the necrotic keyword.
I'm more inclined towards a dedicated "Knight" class with Knight of Solamnia/Neraka PPs than I am to mechanical effect for the Orders of High Sorcery.
The tools for the knight classes are already there. At its simplest:
Crown = Fighter
Sword = Paladin
Rose = Warlord
Multiclassing and hybrid classes can enhance this further.
Especially given that warlocks, sorcerors and wizards should all be able to join the Orders.
I disagree here, as sorcerers use a different type of arcane magic than wizards. They are at odds with each other. Likewise, warlocks gain magic from the entities they make pacts with, not with the moons. If there were moon pacts, they would be great.
Trampas Whiteman---DragonHelm--->Whitestone Council Dragonlance NexusLong Live the Lance!
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 17, 2009 - 6:47PM
#9
|
Date Joined:
Mar 19, 2001
|
Just because there are WoHS paragon paths doesn't mean that all WoHS have these paragon paths.
Looking at all PP linked to organizations/backgrounds/regions in 4E Forgotten Realms and Eberron settings gives you a pretty good indication of this.
So choosing a PP called "White Robed Wizard of High Sorcery" would mean being fully dedicated to the ideals and strengths of the White Robes; to make it your specialty and your focus. Doesn't mean you don't belong to the order when you're into the heroic tiers or if you choose another PP.
You could simply go with a Master of the White Robes paragon path. Someone who is so dedicated to their order that they've unlocked arcane secrets.
Flavour-wise, every legal good-aligned magic-user is a white robe. Do you really want every good-aligned arcane character you build in Dragonlance to have to take the White Robe class / build / paragon path / feat? That sounds pretty boring to me.
But we're talking wizards here, not every arcane magic-user. The world has advanced a fair amount since the War of the Lance, after all.
I foresee several possibilities for wizards, from Kingfishers to Moon Disciples to Renegade Hunters and so on. I foresee an Academy Sorcerer and a Legion Sorcerer. I see a dragon pact for warlocks with a paragon path to go with that. All of these things are possible. The world is not as limited as it once was, and mortals now have more choices than ever.
Trampas Whiteman---DragonHelm--->Whitestone Council Dragonlance NexusLong Live the Lance!
|
|
|
|
4 years ago ::
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:53PM
#10
|
Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
|
Sorcerers and/or Warlocks will be renegades...and should be in my opinion. Arcane magic in Krynn is a gift, of sorts, from Solinari, Lunitari and Nuitari. It requires study and dedication to utilize this gift however. Sorcerers and Warlocks do not play by the rules of magic in Krynn.
Saying Krynn didn't have Bards is silly in my opinion. Technically, none of the settings had Swordmages...but they all do now. They can paint a new role for them in Krynn if they want to but there is no reason because there were always mulitclass characters. Gilthanas was a Fighter/Mage...he would be fine in 4E as either a Swordmage, Bard or a Multiclass/Hybrid Fighter/Wizard...heck, add in Swordmage and or Bard into those Multiclass/Hybrid options.
Krynn proper, meaning the initial books, didn't have a Feywild or a Shadowfell for the most part, but I think we can all rest aassured they will now.
The only thing that is really being lost is the flavor that Wizards of High Sorcery accessed different spheres of magic. That, however, isn't really hardwired into the setting anyway. Raistlin started off as a Red Robe and had access to Evocation magic. When he became a Black Robe he was still casting Lightning Bolt so it is really a matter of what schools of magic the Orders encouraged study in as opposed to what they are capable of.
A PP is just fine for giving further definition to the Orders of High Sorcery. Not to mention the fact that if things were done the way the initial poster wanted we would never see a PC Wizard with Necromantic spells since neither White nor Red Robed Wizards could cast them. I don't like it.
The only real thing to fit in is Bards. They are more instinctive casters but also seem to focus on learning. They don't fit thematically, at all, with the renegades since they are expected to be able to integrate easily into society. It could just be that they are not considered potent enough casters to be part of the Orders and need not worry one way or the other. It seems to me, however, that in this edition they are not the dabblers they once were.
|
|
|
