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Apparently the news is in from Gen Con that Dragonlance will be updated to 4th edition and the novel line will continue past 2009. More news at http://www.dlnexus.com/.

Huzzah!

Cool! Let's hope they give us a more or less simple translation to 4E mechanics and not another dramatic shift in the cosmology the world.

the_wamble wrote:

Cool! Let's hope they give us a more or less simple translation to 4E mechanics and not another dramatic shift in the cosmology the world.

I hear ya. In the last 80 years Krynn has had:

Three continent-wide wars (War of the Lance, Chaos War, War of Souls)

A second Cataclysm and resulting cosmological shift

and continent-ruling enormous alien dragons

Something a little less dramatic would be a nice change of pace. :embarrass

How about the powers that be just blast it 100 years in the future and alter almost every nation and deity....oh wait....too late

-I figured it was either going to be Greyhawk or Dragonlance that got the nod. I prefer Dragonlance over Greyhawk, so that's cool.

Multizar wrote:

How about the powers that be just blast it 100 years in the future and alter almost every nation and deity....oh wait....too late

-Sounds...familiar....

Lord Karsus wrote:

-I figured it was either going to be Greyhawk or Dragonlance that got the nod. I prefer Dragonlance over Greyhawk, so that's cool.



-Sounds...familiar....

hate to rain on your parade, but they didn't say it was going to happen before greyhawk, just that dragonlance is supposed to eventually get their novels back, and that it will eventually be converted to 4th edition.

as i said in the previous thread, this is no surprise. there is no reason to expect any less. what *is* surprising is that their marketing department is so clueless they didn't announce this long ago, so as not to make them appear to be a bunch of complete and utter

what is also surprising is that they still don't seem to care to keep their fans happy by letting them know *when* the novels, at least, will be continuing (note that both 2010 and 2110 occur after the year 2009, and would both equally fulfill WotC's extremely vague promise. not that i think they're dumb enough to push it back to 2110, but they may not continue in 2010 either is my point). i mean, i can sort of understand why not to announce anything about the RPG setting being converted. they probably think that other campaign settings feel they're in the running for next setting to be converted (personally, my best guess is dragonlance in 2010 anyways, and the only real competition it has is greyhawk in terms of commercial success, but until they announce it the marketing morons might think that fans of other settings really truly believe they have a chance. or that, after seeing what happened to forgotten realms, they *want* to have that chance.)

so yeah, this promise is nothing new. they basically promised that you'll get new novels (not necessarily the ones you've already got in the queue, either) and that you'll eventually get your setting in 4e. the former is unsurprising, and the latter was already announced, with just as many details (ie none) when 4th edition wasn't even out yet.

it's not time to lose hope, but i would say at best it's time for cautious optimism, not really celebrations. when you start hearing *real* promises (for example "we're finishing the novels that have already been written and you can expect them to be released starting in of " or "the dragonlance setting is going to be updated to 4e in of "), *then* you can start celebrating.

Jaid wrote:

hate to rain on your parade, but they didn't say it was going to happen before greyhawk, just that dragonlance is supposed to eventually get their novels back, and that it will eventually be converted to 4th edition.

-You're right. I misread the OP, and thought it said that DL was going to start being updated and new novels IN 2009, which would have made it the 3rd 4e campaign setting.

Wow, this is great news. I was very sad to read a while back that Wotc might give up on Dragonlance entirely. I didn't want to see it die out like previous worlds had and be shelved my most people. It looks like all will be changing for the better and a conversion to 4th edition would be terrific. We'll just have to wait and see what exactly is in store for Dragonlance by th powers that be.

And everyone thought I was crazy. I can say it. I told you so.

I'd expect it to be after Eberron, (so year 3 release) if WOTC are the ones doing it. (which if they are smart they will be)

Though I have to say I was hoping for something like Ravenloft or Al-Qadim for year 3.

I mean Dragonlance is inevitable but what are they going to do to make it -really- stand out from FR and keep it from being FR 2.0 again? (with worse backstory... Device of Time Travelling... grrr grrr grrrr grrr)

Cpt_Micha wrote:

I mean Dragonlance is inevitable but what are they going to do to make it -really- stand out from FR and keep it from being FR 2.0 again? (with worse backstory... Device of Time Travelling... grrr grrr grrrr grrr)

Not changing anything and keeping Dragonborn, Tieflings etc out would make it quite different from FR 2.0.

Havard,
waiting for Mystara

Antholin wrote:

Wow, this is great news. I was very sad to read a while back that Wotc might give up on Dragonlance entirely.

Nah, they only gave up on Mystara/Known World.

Ranger REG wrote:

Nah, they only gave up on Mystara/Known World.

You like kicking those who are smaller than you, do you? There are names for people like that.

Sure, Mystara was always grouped with the smaller settings. Obviously it cannot hope to compare with a giant like Dragonlance. Given the number of settings waiting in line, Mystara never had much hope in being converted in time for 5E.

Which means the 4E fans will be missing out on a gold mine.

Havard

havard wrote:

You like kicking those who are smaller than you, do you? There are names for people like that.

Sure, Mystara was always grouped with the smaller settings. Obviously it cannot hope to compare with a giant like Dragonlance. Given the number of settings waiting in line, Mystara never had much hope in being converted in time for 5E.

Which means the 4E fans will be missing out on a gold mine.

Havard

on the plus side, if the 4e realms are any indication, mystara may be dodging a bullet =P

-Indeed. Pray that they don't come to you with promises of "revival".

havard wrote:

You like kicking those who are smaller than you, do you? There are names for people like that.

Apparently the big smile smiley post icon ... something like this ( :D ) but more green ... is lost on you.

Therefore in the future, feel free to take all of my posts way too seriously. :evillaugh

Mind you, when I started playing D&D, it is with those boxed sets that introduced me to the Known World and Karameikos. If you think I want to see the setting go the way of the dodo, then you do not know me at all.

Oh yeah, feel free to take the previous paragraph very seriously.

I think it would be cool if they updated the original modules and released that as the associated adventure... take the setting back to the very beginning again and let a new generation discover it afresh.

Well this truely makes me happy, now the only thing I need to hear about is either Planescape or Spelljammer being releashed sometime in the near future as well

havard wrote:

Not changing anything and keeping Dragonborn, Tieflings etc out would make it quite different from FR 2.0.

Havard,
waiting for Mystara

Dragonborn = Draconians.

Tieflings will probably be around, since they are a player's handbook one race as either something new or reimagined.

What makes a setting different from one another isn't what you keep -out- it's what you add -in- or -to- the game.

http://naegunfael.proboards61.com/index.cgi?board=dl
That's what I've done so far on my version of DL. (Yeah I know not a lot but I've got three technically four homebrews that I work on)

and it's gotta be a -little- more than races it's also gotta be the world feel for me. Right now DL seems FR 2.0 to me. There's things in it that are unique and they could have gone with but didn't expand farther. Hopefully they will do such this go around although really a black robed wizard would be just whatever the Necromancer ends up being. Red being standard wizard and I don't know about the white.

They could surely do something with the moons in a much more significant fashion though.

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Dragonborn = Draconians.

Heh?

i'm gonna have to disagree that keeping stuff out of a setting isn't part of defining a setting.

now certainly that's true for some settings. i mean, for something like planescape you can add pretty much anything. likewise with spelljammer, or even ravenloft (it's easy to get in, it's just not easy to get out).

however, to put it bluntly, paladins have no place in dark sun. they simply don't belong there. and dragonborn in dark sun would be all kinds of wrong, imo, at least as a standard PC race. likewise, kender don't belong in the forgotten realms (even if way too many people play their halfling rogues as kender nowadays). and drow don't belong on krynn.

so yes, a lot of what defines a campaign setting is what you add to it. but a lot of it is also defined by what you don't add to it, and even what you remove from it.

the core rules are fine for a standard fantasy setting. they just don't work well for *every* fantasy setting. some of the core 4e races just don't belong in certain settings, and the same goes for some of the core 4e classes, and should not be added to those settings where they are not appropriate.

Jaid wrote:

so yes, a lot of what defines a campaign setting is what you add to it. but a lot of it is also defined by what you don't add to it, and even what you remove from it.

the core rules are fine for a standard fantasy setting. they just don't work well for *every* fantasy setting. some of the core 4e races just don't belong in certain settings, and the same goes for some of the core 4e classes, and should not be added to those settings where they are not appropriate.

I second that! I love warforged and shifters, but I would not love to see them in Greyhawk. It's not that they couldn't be retconned to fit, but they are part of what makes Eberron unique and distinct from other settings. Dragonborn and Draconians would seem a lot alike, but the Draconians have their own unique history in the Dragonlance setting that sets them apart from the more generic Dragonborn, and would consequently make them an awkward fit for some other setting. I like Dragonborn just fine, but they would just be redundant in Dragonlance.

however, to put it bluntly, paladins have no place in dark sun. they simply don't belong there. and dragonborn in dark sun would be all kinds of wrong, imo, at least as a standard PC race. likewise, kender don't belong in the forgotten realms (even if way too many people play their halfling rogues as kender nowadays). and drow don't belong on krynn.

I don't quite so agree... especialy the new paladin. Some kind of elemental mystic-champion class distinct enough to cleric may be nice. Albeit something like Shugenja may be more fitting.

Remember, paladins are more than LG now. Spiritual champions.

As for dragonborns... can't be they be used to represent that curious 'dragon-men' hybrid race created by one of the Dragons (I think), or something? Or one of the lizard-like humanoid races? Like for Draconians in Dragonlance?

warforged and shifters

SHifters are actualy a generic race, can exist easily in FR and Greyhawk if wished. (like points up, an individual DM shouldn't feels bad in 'playing around' with outside races, classes, etc...) And Warforged could be created by imaskarites or gondians in FR, and equivalents in GH - heck, even Tinker gnomes maybe.


Now, all those suggestions, not canon... But not canon =/= wrong to be added/changed. It don't =/= can't be done.

This could be goodnews or bad, as far as I'm concerned. I've neverbeen a big fan oftheRealms, but I can sympathise with Realms-fans who are disgruntled with themassivechanges implemented to bring theRealms in line with 4E.As a big fan of DL since the original modules and DLA, I'd hate to see such a thing happen to my beloved Krynn. I don't want to see draconians shoe-horned into dragonborn, nor the "sudden" appearance of tieflings on a scale to justify the new PH race. Alignment and Gods are important in DL! I wonder how those'll shift into 4E.

What will really be interesting (a disaster?) is how they'll treat magic under 4E, including WoHS, Sorcerers, Clerics of , Mystics.

I wonder if gnome tinkers will be included in the DL Player's Guide, or shoved in a monster manual

Jaid wrote:

what *is* surprising is that their marketing department is so clueless they didn't announce this long ago, so as not to make them appear to be a bunch of complete and utter

It's surprising that they waited until after the decision was actually made to announce it? Not particularly.

what is also surprising is that they still don't seem to care to keep their fans happy by letting them know *when* the novels, at least, will be continuing (note that both 2010 and 2110 occur after the year 2009, and would both equally fulfill WotC's extremely vague promise. not that i think they're dumb enough to push it back to 2110, but they may not continue in 2010 either is my point).

It's also surprising that they haven't announced a release schedule, because they haven't finalized one? Not particularly.

If 4E Forgotten Realms is any indication, a 4E version of Dragonlance would be a train wreck.

HobbitFan wrote:

If 4E Forgotten Realms is any indication, a 4E version of Dragonlance would be a train wreck.

Last I checked, Cam Bank didn't write FR 4e.

I think WotC should find a different Design Team for DL, preferably like Cam Bank.

Hey ranger,

Cam Banks is a great idea. Some of his work for Margaret weis' 3E version of Krynn was pretty darn good. And he seemed a good guy according to his Dragonlance Nexus posts too...

I'm sorry to the other thread posters if my previous post seemed a little snarky...I'm still steamed about what happened to Faerun.

So that's in the back of mymind, as well as the Saga/5th age fiasco. I want to see dragonlance done right.

HobbitFan wrote:

I want to see dragonlance done right.

All I want is DLCS done right. My own tiny gripe is that the book didn't have a prestige class for Minotaur mariners. I'd have to get the Age of Mortal book which is not my favorite time period for the setting.

I think it would be pretty simple to take the Dragonborn race as a whole and just give them sub species in the DL setting. A few little tweaks here and there as far as appearance and the way they die are really all that is required.

Ranger REG wrote:

Heh?

How isn't that one obvious? :P

Just give em feats that grant em glide wings and there you have it. Instant Draconians.

Remember, the Monster version can have a substantially different write up than the Pc version (Look at the Eladrin for Example or the Humans)

Also, Fluff, is just that Fluff. It is not some immutable Holy Text That Can Not Be Altered. None of my races follow Phb fluff in my homebrews (except for some generic parts with the Elves and Eladrin. Ie both are Fey from the Ever After (read Feywild)

They could Easily put Warforged within Dragonlance pretty readily. (Could be gnome creations... Especially the ones that survived the Nevermind boom.. what were they called? Mad gnomes? You know the ones that only invent practical things?)

Paladins can fit within Darksun as well, they aren't all lawful good champions of justice anymore. Infact I think I remember there being champions devoted to the Dragon Kings (was that what they were called? been so long) who more or less fit the Paladin bill.

Fluff is just that Fluff. "The Phb race doesn't fit because the Phb fluff isn't right!" Then change it to fit the setting. Heck FR did for the Dragonborn. Also, given how bad some of the fluff is in DL (Looking at you Device of Time Travel and Takhisis stealing the world and a level 2 character some how killing her) It's not like DL could not use a substantial rewrite of fluff in many places as it is.

Cpt_Micha wrote:

How isn't that one obvious? :P

Because Draconians are made, not born.

Personally, I'd rather not take the lazy route and slap "draconian" label on a pre-existing dragonborn race.

Dragonlance is not one of those cookie-cutter setting like Eberron and Forgotten Realms. Not all D&D universal monsters exist on Krynn.

Ranger REG wrote:

Because Draconians are made, not born.

Personally, I'd rather not take the lazy route and slap "draconian" label on a pre-existing dragonborn race.

Dragonlance is not one of those cookie-cutter setting like Eberron and Forgotten Realms. Not all D&D universal monsters exist on Krynn.

Which is again a fluff issue and not a mechanical one. As it is right now the Dragonborn fit the "Dragonhumanoid" motif. Which in of itself is rather generic. Which is another thing that irks me about Draconians... they aren't made anymore.. so how come they are a player race again?

Actually DL kind of is. Eberron has more to differentiate itself from FR than DL does. DL is pretty much the epitome of generic fantasy 101 (or at least became as such during 3e)

There are ways that you could differentiate from FR in a substantial way. (thinking of the Moon influence on magic for a starter.. Curse of the Magi for another)

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Which is again a fluff issue and not a mechanical one. As it is right now the Dragonborn fit the "Dragonhumanoid" motif. Which in of itself is rather generic. Which is another thing that irks me about Draconians... they aren't made anymore.. so how come they are a player race again?

How come minotaur is a PC race option? Blame Kaz.

How come draconian is a PC race option? Blame Kang and his regiment.

:P

Minotaur can breed though. :D

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Minotaur can breed though. :D

So can Draconians...

Daedavias wrote:

So can Draconians...

Again, I re-iterate. Do not take the easy-lazy route of slapping the "Draconian" label over the "Dragonborn" race.

Daedavias wrote:

So can Draconians...

Since when? I see no information about this in my setting book. Cite example please. Need to know for my own project.

Ranger REG wrote:

Again, I re-iterate. Do not take the easy-lazy route of slapping the "Draconian" label over the "Dragonborn" race.

I still fail to see how Draconians are not Dragonborn. Explain the difference. And don't say "Fluff". Can't really use their Death Throws either since that would be counter productive as a Pc ability at best anyway. (IIRC didn't it prevent you from being resurrected?)

Cpt_Micha wrote:

I still fail to see how Draconians are not Dragonborn. Explain the difference.

Explain how they are similar (having dragon blood flowing in their vein does not count).

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Since when? I see no information about this in my setting book. Cite example please. Need to know for my own project.

I havn't actually read through all the source books published so I can't speak for them, but if you read the novels about Kang (Kang's Regiment maybe the title of the specific book) they find eggs of female draconians so they can now reproduce.

Ranger REG wrote:

Explain how they are similar (having dragon blood flowing in their vein does not count).

They are both "reptillian humanoids" that are the direct result of Dragons either doing things with humanoids, or were altered to become humanoids. Both of which have breath weapons, both are stronger than normal. Both have draconic traits.

Fluff is really the only thing that differentiates them from one another (maybe some racial feats being different) there's more difference in Lizardfolk to Dragonborn than there is Draconian to Dragonborn. (and not just fluff but actual mechanics)

The fluff ontop of that is closer than not as well between the two.

Death Throws really don't work as a differentiation factor because they are too hard to gauge of their usefulness. (especially if they prevent you from being "rezzed") Unless you want the race to get two encounter powers (which I really don't think would be balanced and the DB is pushing it as it is) So it comes back to Fluff being different. Fluff can be changed. (Preferably the phb fluff.. just feels so ugh fluffwise)

kalstrand wrote:

I havn't actually read through all the source books published so I can't speak for them, but if you read the novels about Kang (Kang's Regiment maybe the title of the specific book) they find eggs of female draconians so they can now reproduce.

Thanks! well that takes care of the "viable race issue"

Would love to have 4E Dragonlance become a reality sooner rather than later, especially if they reprinted a 4E version of the War of the Lance adventures. I still have most of the originals.

I would highly recommend checking out the 3.5 versions of the classic adventures that Margaret Weis Productions put out a few years back.  I would imagine it wouldn't be too hard to update to 4e.

How disappointed am I. I just saw this thread for the first time and clicked into it before I realised just how long ago it got started.

:o(

I think some of the problem is that Dragonlance 4e is sort of already out there. It is just about finding the stuff you want and remembering to alter the flavour text to suit you and your players.

I had already started to incorporate the moons and the idea of the Wizards of High Sorcery into my "Nentir Vale" campaign. Just cause it says something on the box doesn't mean we have to use it that way.

Oct 22, 2008 -- 5:09PM, Daedavias wrote:

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Minotaur can breed though. :D

So can Draconians...

As far as I understood, from the original Chronicles was that the Draconians were not only sterile, they were also only male (though the later wasn't explicitly stated, the former was mentioned at least once in Dragons of Spring Dawning). I find it difficult to consider allowing Draconians as a PC race because of their inherent "evil" nature. Although they were made from good dragons, the evil magic that altered them caused them to be evil. It's also difficult to consider allowing PC's to play something as powerful as a draconian and having them select their specific "racial traits" (I.E. post mortem effects). The higher types of draconians also have inherent magical abilities.

My main concern about playing DL, my favorite story setting, is the complexity of social/economic/political issues. The timelines (as mentioned before) have gone through so many shifts, it would be like making a campaign setting for any of the Star Wars timelines. Each genus of Star Wars has specified how the rules apply for each age. There would have to be some such campaign book for each timeline, and as having occurred in AD&D, they made a separate campaign book for the second continent (I forget the name at this time, Talas or something like that). This has not been such an issue in the other world settings, because the books have not had significant alterations (save FR spell-scarring). There would have to be settings designed for pre-cataclysm, post-cataclysm, war of the lance, post war, age of chaos, age of mortals, and whatever current age the setting is in. Gods, no gods, politics, racism, social status, not to say the specific class rulings: Solamnic Knights, Wizards of the conclave (vs. Rogue wizards), and races Elves (Sylvanesti Vs. Qualanesti), Gnomes, Gully dwarves, kender, etc. It would be a difficult change, and with so many class and racial choices, you would almost have to start over and have only a few requirements.  Overall, I think these ideas that have been presented are great, the books have been so inconsistent that it would be difficult to reign in what is allowable and what is not.

Sep 25, 2008 -- 6:03PM, HobbitFan wrote:

If 4E Forgotten Realms is any indication, a 4E version of Dragonlance would be a train wreck.

That's because Forgotten Realms was a trainwreck starting sometime in early 2e when it began to dominate everything.

4e Dragonlance could be taken one of two ways- a Martial-only Arthurian-wannabe pastiche called 5th Age, or an actual fantasy setting starting about the time of the War of the Lance. Minus a certain annoying adventuring party that happened to be the focus of a couple of novels, of course...

Sep 26, 2010 -- 8:11PM, frizbie wrote:

Oct 22, 2008 -- 5:09PM, Daedavias wrote:

Cpt_Micha wrote:

Minotaur can breed though. :D

So can Draconians...

As far as I understood, from the original Chronicles was that the Draconians were not only sterile, they were also only male (though the later wasn't explicitly stated, the former was mentioned at least once in Dragons of Spring Dawning). 

This is what the dragon highlords wanted everyone (the draconians included) to believe.

This however was shown to be a blatant lie, as Kang (a disillusioned Bozak) and his regiment embark on an adventure sometime shortly after the Chaos War, that leads them to discover a hidden cache of female draconian eggs.

This eventually leads Kang north onto the Nordmaar plain where he establishes the Draconian Free-state of Teyr, shortly after which the first generation of female draconians are born.  

You are correct in the fact that all Draconians born/created before the founding of Teyr are male, however this is no longer the case. With that being said, female draconians are still a rarity among draconians.

Reference [Draconian Measures & Kangs Regiment]

As I stated over on the dragonlanceforums, a case can be made for dragonborn being second generation draconians.

This is due to the fact that since they were never meant to breed, no forethought was taken as to what repercussions of their tampering would have on successive generations.

From a genetic standpoint, all 1st generation Draconians could theoretically be heterozygous (carriers) of true dragon traits (eg. breath weapons). When these carriers breed, there would then be a 1/4 chance of these recessive traits surfacing (aka. a Dragonborn). 

"As I stated over on the dragonlanceforums, a case can be made for dragonborn being second generation draconians.

This  is due to the fact that since they were never meant to breed, no  forethought was taken as to what repercussions of their tampering would  have on successive generations.

From a genetic standpoint, all  1st generation Draconians could theoretically be heterozygous (carriers)  of true dragon traits (eg. breath weapons). When these carriers breed,  there would then be a 1/4 chance of these recessive traits surfacing  (aka. a Dragonborn). "


I like it.

I'd go a step further and fast forward the timeline a bit in a homebrew game.. say 75 years or so. Gives it some time for things to have settled down a bit and for the Dragonborn to have started families of their own. How do the older generations feel about this "mutants". Is Kang and his city state happy for these new additions or are they essentially the "half-elves" of the Draconian world.

Also as for the elf problem. I'd say defualt Eladrin as the Silvenesti and have elves be either Qualinesti or wilder elves depending on background.

Dragonborn = Bakali

www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/13491.aspx

The Bakali have long been thought of as a lost race of Ansalon. They have always been in strong numbers in the swamps of Taladas, however they were rarely seen upon Ansalon for a long time. During the Age of Dreams, Bakali served the forces of Takhisis in large numbers and were a race to be feared. Their numbers dwindled over time and for many centuries they were considered extinct. With the emergence of the Black Dragon Overlord Onysablet, the Bakali emerged anew as another force to contend with, although they have faded again somewhat, with the fall of Sable. They are also known to reside around Mohrlex's domain, in the Great Moors of Nordmaar.

Name	Bakali
Type	Humanoid
Subtype	Reptilian
Size	Medium
Coloring	Yellow-green to mottled-brown
Relations	Unknown
Lands	Any swampland

Most Bakali stand between 6-8 feet tall and are physically very strong. Their scales are yellow-green to mottled-brown and they resembled humanoid crocodiles. They have strong tails which they use in battle and webbed hands and feet. Bakali are relatively intelligent and can speak several languages, including their own lizardfolk dialect. They are predominantly known to be fighters, however some Bakali have been known to serve as druids or clerics to Krik'k lettz (Chislev) or occasionallySirr'ushush (Sirrion).

Any update on when Dragonlance will come out in 4e?

Dec 10, 2010 -- 6:21AM, nielsonj wrote:

Any update on when Dragonlance will come out in 4e?

The soonest we have heard is in 2012.  Maybe.  Nothing for certain, though.

Dec 9, 2010 -- 12:18PM, DangerAbe wrote:

Dragonborn = Bakali

www.dlnexus.com/lexicon/13491.aspx

Bakali have traditionally been lizard men.  Dragonborn would be more likely to be some form of draconian. 

Sorry this isn't in line with the conversation. I just wanted to say I AM A DRAGONLANCE FAN! I never played the rpg's but am an avid reader over the books. I would love to see a offical revamp you know  to bring it home! But hopefully w/out destroying the tone, taste, flavor. But on the flip side you need some new so as not to grow stagnate! I'm a fan of the classic war of the lance time period, as well as the past w/ Istar. I aslso liked the "Chaos" war? And the war of souls. Allternative time line are cool too. I really haven't read much about the 5th Age. Or the other continent for that matter. In the end there is allways going to be some you don't like and or disagree with. Right Now I almost just want to see something in print. Hell in F.R's they killed off alot of the old gods! And with them canibializing the corpse of Kern. (BUT knights and Dragons aren't  just a thing of kern. But in my oppion did it the best!) But perhaps all the canbialism will sow the seeds, for the days when Valiant Men rode on the backs of golden dragons and  fought aerial battles inthe SKY! And maybe people will take interest and want to play! Sorry late night rant! By the way I do occassionally check out the nexus.

Dec 12, 2010 -- 10:42PM, Dragonhelm wrote:

Dec 10, 2010 -- 6:21AM, nielsonj wrote:

Any update on when Dragonlance will come out in 4e?

The soonest we have heard is in 2012.  Maybe.  Nothing for certain, though.

Too far away!!!

I really think WotC should not feel like they have to shoe horn every race, class, and plane into every setting. I feel that there are more than enough options floating around, and a little constraint can give a world a richness and distinction. If nothing else the book can just not mention shifters, wilden, shardminds, or changelings, I don't know why a campaign guide has to weigh in on all of these things. 

Give us the GREAT things about Dragonlance, first, and don't bother with the other stuff. Sacrifice that weasely column of text explaining where how and if Warforged exist in Dragonlance, and just give us a great WoHS or KoS theme/paragon path, etc. Let the DM and player figure out how a Kalashtar came to Ansalon, don't waste book space on it.

On the flip side of choice, when WotC decides if Draconians should be Dragonborn or not, they should bear in mind making up a whole new race you also lose a number of feats and other options, and likely few of those would be available.

Since Half Elves, Humans, Dragonborn, and Drow, currently have two racial encounter power options, and other quick little fixes. Especially now that the character builder has different worlds separated out.

I like the idea that Irda are Deva, so the book states and the character builder gives them Disguise Self instead of Memory of a Thousand Lives. 

Jan 3, 2011 -- 7:41PM, MacEochaid wrote:

I like the idea that Irda are Deva, so the book states and the character builder gives them Disguise Self instead of Memory of a Thousand Lives. 

Just curious where you saw that at.  To my knowledge, irda have never been mentioned in 4e.

Dec 20, 2010 -- 1:20AM, mysticpizza wrote:

By the way I do occassionally check out the nexus.

Fantastic.  Good to see you.  Feel free to stop by Dragonlanceforums.com, the Nexus' message boards, where all sorts of Dragonlance fans come by to discuss the world of Krynn. 

Draconians never made for good players anyway (what with their perchant for exploding or turning to dust/acid and all)....

On the other hand, the easiest way to include Draconians in Dragonlance with the minimum of fuss would be to create new Dragonborn racial feats and paragon paths and/or new racial powers.

A precedent has already been created in the Essentials line, and within Dragon (Winternorn Eladrin) for giving optional racial powers/abilities to pre-existing races. I fail to see how this would be any different.

The same could apply in the case of the Irda simply being the Dragonlance equivalent of Changelings.

That way, it creates cross-setting transparency between pre-existing races (and material) without the need to create yet another under-supported race.

By taking this approach, it frees up considerable real-estate to devote to other races - perhaps the Kobold, Lizardfolk (Bakali), or Centaur.

Jan 7, 2011 -- 7:15PM, Kalani wrote:

By taking this approach, it frees up considerable real-estate to devote to other races - perhaps the Kobold, Lizardfolk (Bakali), or Centaur.

I don't remember there ever being kobolds on Krynn. Did this change?

Jan 8, 2011 -- 2:51PM, sythspawn wrote:

Jan 7, 2011 -- 7:15PM, Kalani wrote:

By taking this approach, it frees up considerable real-estate to devote to other races - perhaps the Kobold, Lizardfolk (Bakali), or Centaur.

I don't remember there ever being kobolds on Krynn. Did this change?

Yeah, kobolds have always been in Krynn.

DL isn't as exclusive as some folks think.

Jan 8, 2011 -- 6:44PM, Dragonhelm wrote:

Jan 8, 2011 -- 2:51PM, sythspawn wrote:

Jan 7, 2011 -- 7:15PM, Kalani wrote:

By taking this approach, it frees up considerable real-estate to devote to other races - perhaps the Kobold, Lizardfolk (Bakali), or Centaur.

I don't remember there ever being kobolds on Krynn. Did this change?

Yeah, kobolds have always been in Krynn.

DL isn't as exclusive as some folks think.

I honestly don't ever remember seeing a kobold in any Dragonlance product.

There's a kobold named Master Yap who appears in Spectre of Sorrows, part 2 of the Age of Mortals adventure trilogy.

IIRC, the Kobolds are one of the less-well known greygem races and make appearances sporadically throughout the products (usually in passing) as do several other races not commonly thought to exist in Krynn (such as Tieflings, and Half-Dwarves).

Dragonlance has a rich history outside of the core products (Chronicles, Chronicles II, Legends, Summer Flame, War of Souls, Dark Deciple) due to the very nature of its multi-author format, such as the existance of other gods (Baast in Brothers Majere who may/may not be a false-god, or might actually be some kind of Fey creature worshiped as a god).

Then there is the fact that planar visitors are likely to become permanent immigrants to Krynn as a result of the sanctions placed on the world by the gods [ref. Travellers from Beyond, p12 Dragonlance Adventures, 1987]

so any news on Dragolance and 4E? i haven't heard anything...

Nobody has - not even Margaret Weiss or Tracy Hickman has any idea as to the future of Dragonlance unfortunately.

Feb 26, 2011 -- 8:39PM, Kalani wrote:

Nobody has - not even Margaret Weiss or Tracy Hickman has any idea as to the future of Dragonlance unfortunately.

 Wish I was creating a Kender thief from Neraka on CB right now...  

Feb 28, 2011 -- 3:52PM, BlindDwarf wrote:

Feb 26, 2011 -- 8:39PM, Kalani wrote:

Nobody has - not even Margaret Weiss or Tracy Hickman has any idea as to the future of Dragonlance unfortunately.

 Wish I was creating a Kender thief from Neraka on CB right now...  

Just make a halfling thief and play him really annoying.

Feb 28, 2011 -- 6:07PM, sythspawn wrote:

Feb 28, 2011 -- 3:52PM, BlindDwarf wrote:

Feb 26, 2011 -- 8:39PM, Kalani wrote:

Nobody has - not even Margaret Weiss or Tracy Hickman has any idea as to the future of Dragonlance unfortunately.

 Wish I was creating a Kender thief from Neraka on CB right now...  

Just make a halfling thief and play him really annoying.

Or....you could play a halfling thief/rogue and play him like a kender. 

It's a pity that some folks use kender as an excuse to be annoying.  Such players, though, could be just as annoying with a human rogue too. 

(And the "kender are annoying" conversation is ages old, so I hope we can avoid it here.)

No. No. No. No. No.......

Most people who play Kender are doing it wrong! Tasselhoff is just one very extreme example of Kenderkind. He is far from representative of the entire species, as anyone truly familiar with the franchise can attest.

To truly play a Kender, all you need to remember is that the race (as a whole) see the world through the eyes of (4-8 year old) children.

Not all children are kleptomaniacs (although all children struggle with the concept of ownership, particularly when it comes to the coveted possessions of others), and not all children express their innocence (or naivety) in the same way, or to the same degree (but they all exhibit it in some fashion).

While a character like Tasselhoff works wonders as a literary plot device, the same character becomes a detrimental nuisence in a game session, and it is for this reason Kender get such a bad reputation at the game table.

Instead of trying to play a Tasselhoff clone, try playing something original and maybe the Kender race may break out of its (false) stereotypes.

For inspiration, here is a (short narrative) example of the most memorable Kender character I have ever had the pleasure of creating:

Salisar Copperknot - The Kender Knight of Solamnia
Salisar's adventures began like any other Kender. Somewhere around his 20th year of lifegift, the urge to travel the land took hold and bidding his family goodbye, he left Kendermore far behind him. After many long months (and adventures best left for another story), his journey took him beyond the Khalkhist mountains, and onto the plains of Solamnia.

Winding about a bend in the road, his keen hearing detected the unmistakable sound of an injured man moaning in pain. Curiosity getting the better of him, he followed the sound to a nearby embankment, where, peering down he saw the bloodied and battered body of a severely injured knight.

Sliding gracefully down the embankment, he saw that the Knight burned with fever, and (in his desire to hear the Knights obviously grand tale of how he came to lie face down in the ditch with his arm jutting out at such an odd angle with the bone all poking out and such) he began tending the Knights wounds.

Weakened by bloodloss, and burning with infection, the Knight uttered words that would alter Salisar's life forever. For within his fever-induced dellerium, the Knight uttered the words "Thank-you, Sir Knight......" words that failed to escape Salisar's keen ears, and leading him to believe that the Knight must have knighted him in thanks for saving his life.

And thus the River of Time took a sharp turn for Salisar, who (having been convinced of his knighthood), set about to discover what it meant to be a Kender Knight of Solamnia.... But first he needed to find some Kender-sized armor and a nice shiny sword like all the Knights in his story books wore! 

......................................................................... 
Here is a character who turns the Knight archetype upside down - being a character of pure child-like innocence, whose understanding of the Knighthood stemmed (almost exclusively) from widely embellished Kender Tales.

As such, Salisar spent a large portion of his career trying to live up to an idealized image of Huma Dragonbane, and who scolded his "hands" whenever he caught them doing unknightly things (picking locks, handling, etc)..... 

The concept I was exploring when I created this character was - how would a 6-year old character act if they sincerely believed themselves to be a Knight in Shining armor......

Nice narrative! 

Jan 3, 2011 -- 7:41PM, MacEochaid wrote:

On the flip side of choice, when WotC decides if Draconians should be Dragonborn or not, they should bear in mind making up a whole new race you also lose a number of feats and other options, and likely few of those would be available.

Dragonborn will almost certainly not be Draconians. Draconians are already detailed in the Draconomicon for Metallic Dragons. They even include a few new Draconian types for the other metallic dragons. What we will be seeing - likely - is a change in what Dragons exist on Krynn. Adamantium and either Iron or Steel Dragons are a likely addition, as they wrote up the Adamaaz and Ferak Draconians. Kobaaz too but I am not sure which dragons they come from.

Honestly, with the material that has already been published (Draconians, establishing in Draconomicon that Bahamut is Paladine and Tiamat is Takhisis, Dragon Orbs in Draconomicon, and so on) the only thing a person needs to run a Dragonlance game is the time needed to write up their own themes and such for the few bits that have not been published. Dragonborn - my prediction - will be those few rare people who are born from the Human and Dragon couplings which seem so commonplace in the setting, natural born descendents. Or - depending on the age they write up - Dragonborn will be weird creations by the Dragon Overlords.

I've never understood why Wizards is so adverse to resurrecting the Dragonlance campaign setting.  In all the years I have played D&D the Dragonlance setting in my opinion was the best hands down.  Is it a licensing issue or some other legal hurdle?

Aug 22, 2011 -- 5:06PM, Rymel wrote:

I've never understood why Wizards is so adverse to resurrecting the Dragonlance campaign setting.  In all the years I have played D&D the Dragonlance setting in my opinion was the best hands down.  Is it a licensing issue or some other legal hurdle?

Wizards of the Coast owns the Dragonlance intellectual property.  For a while, they had licensed the DL RPG to Margaret Weis Productions.  There were several licenses that WotC didn't renew when 4th edition hit, including the MWP license for DL.

Why WotC stopped making Dragonlance novels, I don't know.  I believe they're only putting out novels to support game lines right now, which is a 180 from the 3e approach of Dragonlance (games supported novels).

I hope they bring it back, but in a way that is faithful to the setting and its creators. 

Aug 22, 2011 -- 5:06PM, Rymel wrote:

I've never understood why Wizards is so adverse to resurrecting the Dragonlance campaign setting.  In all the years I have played D&D the Dragonlance setting in my opinion was the best hands down.  Is it a licensing issue or some other legal hurdle?

They are not averse to it. It is just an extremely well supported setting as far as publications are concerned. All the Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home books provide us with more flavor than many campaign source books. Almost all the setting material is available online. Extensive novel lines from which to draw inspiration. Considerable rules material from previous editions to use for guidance in home brewed conversions. Forgotten Realms is the only other D&D setting to receive that much attention. Right now - ostensibly, though Neverwinter seems to indicate otherwise - their focus is on bringing back those setting lines that have been set aside or forgotten, settings that do not have that much material out there.

Aug 23, 2011 -- 10:42AM, Dragonhelm wrote:

Wizards of the Coast owns the Dragonlance intellectual property.  For a while, they had licensed the DL RPG to Margaret Weis Productions.  There were several licenses that WotC didn't renew when 4th edition hit, including the MWP license for DL.

Why WotC stopped making Dragonlance novels, I don't know.  I believe they're only putting out novels to support game lines right now, which is a 180 from the 3e approach of Dragonlance (games supported novels).

I hope they bring it back, but in a way that is faithful to the setting and its creators. 

I imagine that bringing it back with its own book will likely need some overhauling to make it fit in better with the overall universal setting for 4th edition. Like the wars between the Gods and the Primordials, the Astral Sea and the dramatic overhaul the planes have seen in the new edition, the numerous new dragon types, all that other business. I am still not certain why we need them to reprint setting material when so much setting material is available without any further publication. All it would do is save us time on writing up our own conversions. I can understand republishing old settings like Dark Sun or Ravenloft and so on, whose worlds were a bit more niche and not so engrained in our collective gamer subconscious.  

But - as the DragonLance Nexus proves - we do not need source books to access information about Krynn. Do we really want to drop another $40 on a setting guide for a setting that most gamers can reference and quote from memory with ease, especially since Wizards may well come out with a new edition yet in the next few years and start the process all over again? Unless there are significant changes to the setting that make it necessary to purchase the new setting materials?

I am a old DL fan from 3.0-3.5. I was a book junkie but never rpged the setting. Your right UH most of us know it setting by heart! But the point is to keep...it fresh!!! So people can enjoy it. And it can be passed on to future Generations! (Though nothing is perfect...and there is much to dispute. But everything is that way. And hopefully they can fix problems when they arise. But having 1/2 a CS is better than no setting.)

I would honestly like to see the other neglected CS revived to like DS,FR,E, NW. Heck maybe new settings.

When I rollplay tabletop rpg's. I allways play D&D. It's a namebrand I know and love. I looked at other various systems for better or worst...and i still comeback to D&D. Partly for the nostalgia. But mostly cause I am allready familiar w/ it! I generally understand it. Even in various past forms.  If i can't play it's pointless unless it's a collectable. I never played 1e,or 2e. I first played 3e in middleschool. I bought all the books from 3.0 and 3.5 the art is way better than 4 in my opion. 4.0 to me is much easier for me to understand. Plus I like the tacticalness of 4e.
I was a little disappointed when they decided to go FR's(NW) agian after they allready had FRCS allready. Though looking at it it seems cool. I like the subraces. etc. (good ideas for Kern variations.) 

I remember being a kid and playing 1 CS for hrs and then switching to another. Some people say what does DL offer that FR doesn't have. It basicly Pepsi vs Coke. There similar but different. I loved most of the DL books the authors really had to get creative w/ little variation and this really comes down to the individualisation of the characters. Peole, actions, matter. In FR I really only liked the drow and drizzit. Which they have beat like a dead horse. In DL I never really got into the 5th age or the other continant. 

The other cs offer varietty without changing the game. To get it pubished there has to be some constancy and communication bettween various elements. And not in some backwatter logs. More people will join up later. Need to keep it fresh. Ravenloft and Oriental Adventures have a post under future release. In the past now is the time 3rd Party Pubishers would be realeasing spat books but the new 4e rule laws really put a cramp on what others can offically release. Wasn't RL origionally a 3rd p product? 

Like Dragonlance during the 3rd edition era, Ravenloft was licensed to a 3rd party publisher, White Wolf under its Sword & Sorcery imprint.

Ravenloft was originally an AD&D 1st Edition adventure module (I6) and then an AD&D 2nd Edition campaign setting.

It is interesting to note that the original Ravenloft adventure module was written by Tracy Hickman, a name Dragonlance fans are intimately familiar with. 

To Crazy_monkey that was it! Really... WW isn't that VtM, and WW and WofD, etc.??? I thought it was mongoose P. But the point is D&D need's to release an "offical" CSing or a 3rd P Pubisher. But from what I hear the new GLS is tighter, and more restictive than the old OGL! Really killing 3rd P expansion!!! You should see my last post under DL 4e in Future Releases!!!

So... this is probably a silly question, since if anything has been said it likely would have been posted already, but there is the very miniscule possibility that maybe I've just missed it. Any news regarding a 4th edition Dragonlance setting? I'm not at all familiar with the world too much, but from everything I've heard it sounds really interesting. I checked the thread in the Future Releases forum but there was no indication there of a 4th edition remake.

I've never really been able to get into FR, and though I like Eberron (a lot), I also enjoy the more traditional feel of classic settings. I joined a 4th edition Greyhawk PbP (my first exposure to the setting) and I really liked reading up on the history and building a character that fit there. Dragonlance seems like a setting I'd like as well.

Here's to hoping that we see it sometime.

A couple of other questions for those with the time to answer... which novels detail the canon of the setting? I think I've read the Twins trilogy (ages ago), but which books depict the War/Heroes of the Lance?

Also, who gets to ride dragons? Is it the Knights of Solamnia? I have an itch to play a dragonrider . And are dragonlances artifact-level items or does each dragonrider have one?

Thanks!

The "core" story of the Dragonlance saga is told in the books by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.

Dragonlance Chronicles
-Dragons of Autumn Twilight
-Dragons of Winter Night
-Dragons of Spring Dawning

Dragonlance Legends
-Time of the Twins
-War of the Twins
-Test of the Twins

The Second Generation (anthology that serves as a prologue of sorts to...)

Dragons of Summer Flame

The War of Souls
-Dragons of a Fallen Sun
-Dragons of a Lost Star
-Dragons of a Vanished Moon

There are numerous other Dragonlance novels as well.

In prior editions, dragonlances were divided into lesser dragonlances and greater dragonlances and were either powerful magic items or artifacts.  Dragon riders were usually Knights of Solamnia (good guys) or Dragon Highlords (bad guys).  Note that I say "usually" because the details of who can ride a dragon and wield a dragonlance are largely up to the DM.

Nov 21, 2011 -- 4:46PM, crazy_monkey wrote:

The "core" story of the Dragonlance saga is told in the books by Margaret Weis and Tracy Hickman.

Dragonlance Chronicles
-Dragons of Autumn Twilight
-Dragons of Winter Night
-Dragons of Spring Dawning

Dragonlance Legends
-Time of the Twins
-War of the Twins
-Test of the Twins

The Second Generation (anthology that serves as a prologue of sorts to...)

Dragons of Summer Flame

The War of Souls
-Dragons of a Fallen Sun
-Dragons of a Lost Star
-Dragons of a Vanished Moon

There are numerous other Dragonlance novels as well.

In prior editions, dragonlances were divided into lesser dragonlances and greater dragonlances and were either powerful magic items or artifacts.  Dragon riders were usually Knights of Solamnia (good guys) or Dragon Highlords (bad guys).  Note that I say "usually" because the details of who can ride a dragon and wield a dragonlance are largely up to the DM.

And by numerous, he means well over 100, probably closer to 200 by now...

208, actually (though that count includes young adult novels published under the Mirrorstone imprint and non-game supplemental material, such as Leaves from the Inn of the Last Home).

I know when we think about Dragonlance and running a game the easy out is to throw characters into the spots of The Companions (yes, I know some had said they've done otherwise but bear with me) and run them through that adventure. Don't get me wrong, that's a fun time but what we need to look at is where do we go from here?
In all things forward.  I think the last novels left off with Mina joining Krynn's pantheon...Goblin Nation...and the elves finding their new homeland.  Those are the last major events I remember. If anyone else remembers other key events, chime in.  Oh, and all the gods moving and shaking in the mortal world in order to gain influence/affect their standing within the pantheon and so on.
The question is, if the game/novels pick up from these points or some time after, imagine the world we're entering: A world of very active gods, Draconians have their own place in the world, Goblins with a very shamanistic view (maybe even not thought of as just monsters anymore?), Elves seemingly in seclusion?

What else?

Don't forget the Rise of Solamnia series, the Minotaur Wars, the Ogre Titans.

We've talked about the topic of a possible re-launch on DragonlanceForums.com, and we've covered a few interesting points.  The general consensus seems to be that a re-launch would work best if set around either the War of the Lance, or possibly the post-Legends era.

The current era has a massive buy-in.  To catch up on the core story alone, you have to read somewhere around 20 books.  I don't see Joe Fan reading that many novels just to catch up.  What Dragonlance needs is a buy-in that is reasonable in length.  I would say the Chronicles trilogy is reasonable.  Chronicles + Legends isn't so bad either.

One of the key components of Dragonlance is the struggle between Paladine and Takhisis.  That's gone in the current era.  I feel that Dragonlance needs to get back to that.  In a sense, it's like how Dark Sun got back to its roots.  Yet the two properties aren't exactly alike.

Dragonlance is far more than the original adventure path that started it all.  It is a fully viable setting.  It is my hope that WotC will give it another chance so that Dragonlance may live again.