Device of Time Traveling and Takhisises stealing the world. Dragonlance deserved to be canceled so it could be rebuilt from the ground up. It's too childish of a setting to really stand among worlds like Eberron and Faerun. It needs the retooling desperately. (No I don't care that I spelled that name wrong, not in the slightest. Let's just call her Tiamat with boobs and be honest about it) Sp had long ago lost the right to use the DL license (wotc didn't renew it this was probably a year or so ago IIRC)
They stopped production so they could start it anew. This is a good thing. Especially with the consistency issues that world faces right now.
oh, of course, how could we all be so foolish as to think that a setting which has continued to be a financial success could somehow not need rebooting? based on what i've heard about the spellplague, i'm not sure WotC should be responsible for updating *any* of the settings they own.
seriously, maybe you should consider for a second that the last thing we need is another bloody forgotten realms clone. krynn is supposed to be different. that's the whole point in having different campaign settings is that there will be things about them which are different. imagine that.
i'll be the first person to step up and say that i don't particularly like tinker gnomes, and i don't particularly like kender. but i know lots of people who do. (i do, however, like the fact that you can spit and *not* hit half a dozen epic level characters in dragonlance... that's kinda the nice thing about it not being the forgotten realms). for whatever reason, dragonlance the way it is *works* and is popular enough to have not gone out of print.
and not only has dragonlance been financially successful as a RPG campaign setting, it has been successful in the fiction department also. if it was really that bad what margaret weiss and tracy hickman have been doing with the setting, then why is it that they're just about the only setting in this section of the boards that isn't a dead setting? because i would have to say that if a bunch of people are playing it, and liking it, then obviously they're doing something right, and there's actual evidence to back that statement up, whereas you mouthing off about what needs to be 'fixed' with a setting has absolutely nothing to back it up, and in fact is faced with evidence that the setting was doing just fine as is.
I think the fact it got canceled and SP lost the rights to publish says enough about it's "success" Fr never lost it's print nor did it get canceled.
And you have to admit. That story arc is about the most retarded thing a setting has ever published.
I doubt the precious "holy fluff" is going to be slaughtered though since it's already a points of light campaign. They just have alot of material to sift through. -alot- especially in the old prcs etc etc.
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Device of Time Traveling and Takhisises stealing the world. Dragonlance deserved to be canceled so it could be rebuilt from the ground up. It's too childish of a setting to really stand among worlds like Eberron and Faerun. It needs the retooling desperately. (No I don't care that I spelled that name wrong, not in the slightest. Let's just call her Tiamat with boobs and be honest about it)
Well you're right about the not-so-classy mortal age changeover business, I'll give you that much. But if I had a gold piece for every poorly thought out plot device ever contrived in any campaign, I could buy my own pocket dimension by now. The first thing that popped into my head when I saw the book title "Elminster in hell" was that it was a Jason Vorhees rip-off. The Elminster and Drizzt characters have already been played to death (amongst others)..... And people gripe about the heroes of the lance being overdone? You know, I'll give Eberron some credit for trying, but if anyone thinks hardly anything in forgotten realms is in any way "original", they're only fooling themselves.
As far as being "mature", face facts, nothing, I repeat NOTHING at all about a bunch of adults pretending they're elf lords, or fantasy wizards, or knights in shining armor would EVER be considered "mature" by a good %99 majority of other rational minded people in any way, shape, or form. Not even if you're prancing around pretending to be the captive of an undead zombie lord while your friends shoot magic missiles at the darkness in the most "mature" setting of ravenloft your DM can devise, can anyone consider themselves playing out these types of fantasies as truly "mature".
I've been playing various forms of pnp games for years now, and I still have the common sense to admit it's all rather childish. Some people play fantasy games to escape their "mature" reality, not emulate it. Some people avoid the "mature" settings because some people actually have different tastes in what is "good" and "bad". I'll happily bash FR from here till kingdom come (indeed, my hatred of that setting knows no bounds), but I won't tell people that like that setting to "go play something better". If they like it, more power to them - just don't cram it down everyone else's throats.... (which is precisely what WotC did until Eberron, coincidentally....)
Also, most of the gods in every campaign are a rip-off of RL mythological gods (some more loosely than others, admitedly...). Why don't we just call Takhisis "Satan with a few twists" and be done with it? :P
Jaid wrote:
*snippity* i'll be the first person to step up and say that i don't particularly like tinker gnomes, and i don't particularly like kender. but i know lots of people who do.
Funny you should mention that.... Tinker gnomes and kender are one of the main reasons I do love dragonlance so much. It's called "comic relief" People can call it childish if they want, but personally, my friends and I are tired of the "everyone and their mother is EPIC!!!11!!one" kind of setting FR seems to cater to as well.
If I wanted to go play a munchkin, I'd be playing Munchkin (god I hope my friends and I aren't the only one's who've played that card game...)
Edit: Sorry Cpt_Micha, I don't intend to sound so harsh towards you personally, but I do stand by my thoughts on the "mature" business. How can you truly call any fictional fantasy setting, complete with elves, wizards, dragons, and gelatinous cubes of ooze "mature"? Just because something doesn't cater to your specific tastes, doesn't mean it somehow deserves to be re-tooled solely to fit you. Variety between campaigns is indeed a good thing. Honestly, sarcasm aside, I think some aspects of FR need to stop taking themselves so seriously (sometimes, I think the authors need to pull the proverbial stick out, if you know what I mean...), but I wouldn't say the entire setting deserves to be scrapped and made more "childish" just to suit me. How about I let you have your "mature" world if I can be left alone with my kender comic-relief? ;D
Oh I hate Fr too. Fr took so many things and mage ... wow... now that was a subconscious slip if I've ever seen one.. that was supposed to be made.. but mage came out instead but I'll let it stand. So much of D&D a joke with it's "EPIC EVERYWHEREZ" that I can't help but laugh at it. Fr was a cliche eight years ago, it's only gotten worse. (In my humble internet person opinion it needed the reboot more than DL)
I liked the Chronicle characters for the most part. It's more the... yeah... Device of Time traveling and later on that makes me want to claw someone's eyes out with a rusty spoon. As for Takhisis (Did I get it right this time?) She is literally Tiamat with a differeng gender, as Paladine is Bahamut (down to being the Platinum Dragon even) But that does not irk me either. Like I said it's more... yeah.. "I stole the world.. some how from other super deities! Time travel device hehe!" that just makes me go "Yeah I hate you too DL. But I still hate you less than FR"
No, I'm not referring to the behavior of rp being "mature" but I generally like abit more horror in my fantasy. (not quite lovecraft grade, and not quite as.. emo kid as warhammer)
Kender don't bother me, nor do the gadget gnomes.. even though they bother me almost every where else (gnomes)
Also people tend to dissasociate imagination with maturity. Personally I think that's because most people lack any sort of imaginative ability what so ever. But that's another story all together.
No offense taken. I hope no one took offense to mine either.
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You know, I can see where you're going with the whole "build it stronger, better, faster..." business here. Though WotC's handling of the situation as far as letting fans in on it - and easing any transition rather than looking as though they just gave everyone the finger - makes that whole "hey... now where'd we park that planet at...?" kind of plotline look downright classy....
If dragonlance needs "revitalizing", that could very well be a good thing, I suppose... Presuming they did it right. It was just your reasoning behind why they would do it that made me think "now wait a minute, sir!"
So, playing a bunch of idiotic kender and pretending to tromp through elvish lands and what have you looking for "treasure" consisting of various strings and wads of pocket lint is immature. True enough (and boy how!).
But considering your defense of these other settings is a bunch of (usually) munchkins tromping off through teh uber 1337 dungeonz of dragon treasure with their mighty boots of pwnage and their +12 ogre slaying knife (of doom!!11!!1 - can't get enough exclamations in there, can I?), and your claim is that this is somehow much more "mature" - and thus "ok" for a setting.... It just somehow doesn't sit right with me.
No sir (ma'am?), that argument just doesn't hold water.
Still, all reasoning aside, WotC seriously needs to get their PR together on the issue. They can't really complain about their properties not making them any money, or that fans are no longer interested in certain products, when in all honesty they themselves have created all the animosity that many people hold against them.
After years (and years...) of dumping money into their company, I just now even took to posting in these boards, I'm sorry to say, solely because I am so blazing mad at them at this point that I could just slap someone there - and I'm not the only one. This company seems to almost sadistically enjoy ******* fans off at this point. Or more like little kids torturing bugs....
I try sending e-mails, I get nothing but automated apathy (or no response at all). I try talking to them in person at cons and the like, I only get blank stares (then they just try to ignore me, or sell me on more FR.....) I'm beginning to doubt there is a single person left at this company that isn't completely and utterly out of touch with their fanbase. And from what I've seen around here, the mods on these boards (more notably a shortage of their appearance) is proof enough of that.
And don't even get me started on the "hourglass mage" fiasco they've got going on now :P
If they want to "revitalize" their product, then so be it. But do it then, for crying out loud. So far, all I see is them slowly strangling sales and driving away long-time fans - and then griping about sales figures....
I think the fact it got canceled and SP lost the rights to publish says enough about it's "success" Fr never lost it's print nor did it get canceled.
it wasn't cancelled by the people who were publishing it, and who were still interested in publishing it. it was cancelled because some moron at WotC head office decided that somehow it was better to have no dragonlance at all rather than actually doing anything at all with it.
see, now, failure would go something along the lines of sovereign press saying 'hey, we can't make money off of this, so we're choosing not to renew the license'. instead what happened is WotC said 'hey, we couldn't help but notice you're actually making money off of the intellectual property we were dumb enough to stop producing and then licensed to you, so now we're going to be a bunch of petty whining children and not let you play with our toys anymore'. which, to me at least, is totally different. WotC being a dog-in-the-manger doesn't mean that the setting was failing.
and i will also agree that WotC really badly needs to get their PR team together and smack some sense into them. the way they've been handling their 'other settings' is just flat out idiotic. it's all very well to push 4th edition and all, but when you're planning on reviving a setting, it's usually not that great of an idea to make all the people who like that setting mad at you...
and i will also agree that WotC really badly needs to get their PR team together and smack some sense into them. the way they've been handling their 'other settings' is just flat out idiotic. it's all very well to push 4th edition and all, but when you're planning on reviving a setting, it's usually not that great of an idea to make all the people who like that setting mad at you...
You're losing sight of what's important here. The most important thing is for the boards to look busy, so that 4E looks like a robust and popular game. The goal of creating a community that is inviting and inclusive for fans of settings that are not currently published - but are likely to be in the future, as 4E cycles through its one-setting-per-year publishing plan - is so unimportant that it doesn't merit any consideration at all. Better to drive all those long-time fans away than create a section of the boards that would encourage them to post here.
You know, I can see where you're going with the whole "build it stronger, better, faster..." business here. Though WotC's handling of the situation as far as letting fans in on it - and easing any transition rather than looking as though they just gave everyone the finger - makes that whole "hey... now where'd we park that planet at...?" kind of plotline look downright classy....
If dragonlance needs "revitalizing", that could very well be a good thing, I suppose... Presuming they did it right. It was just your reasoning behind why they would do it that made me think "now wait a minute, sir!"
So, playing a bunch of idiotic kender and pretending to tromp through elvish lands and what have you looking for "treasure" consisting of various strings and wads of pocket lint is immature. True enough (and boy how!).
But considering your defense of these other settings is a bunch of (usually) munchkins tromping off through teh uber 1337 dungeonz of dragon treasure with their mighty boots of pwnage and their +12 ogre slaying knife (of doom!!11!!1 - can't get enough exclamations in there, can I?), and your claim is that this is somehow much more "mature" - and thus "ok" for a setting.... It just somehow doesn't sit right with me.
No sir (ma'am?), that argument just doesn't hold water.
Still, all reasoning aside, WotC seriously needs to get their PR together on the issue. They can't really complain about their properties not making them any money, or that fans are no longer interested in certain products, when in all honesty they themselves have created all the animosity that many people hold against them.
After years (and years...) of dumping money into their company, I just now even took to posting in these boards, I'm sorry to say, solely because I am so blazing mad at them at this point that I could just slap someone there - and I'm not the only one. This company seems to almost sadistically enjoy ******* fans off at this point. Or more like little kids torturing bugs....
I try sending e-mails, I get nothing but automated apathy (or no response at all). I try talking to them in person at cons and the like, I only get blank stares (then they just try to ignore me, or sell me on more FR.....) I'm beginning to doubt there is a single person left at this company that isn't completely and utterly out of touch with their fanbase. And from what I've seen around here, the mods on these boards (more notably a shortage of their appearance) is proof enough of that.
And don't even get me started on the "hourglass mage" fiasco they've got going on now :P
If they want to "revitalize" their product, then so be it. But do it then, for crying out loud. So far, all I see is them slowly strangling sales and driving away long-time fans - and then griping about sales figures....
I never said they didn't handle the process wrong (personally I think them discussing that they have something for DL, Eberron etc ahead of time would generate more -positive- buzz.... wait.. .forgot internet..) Remember I hate FR far worse than I hate DL. DL actually has story lines and arcs that I actually -like- in it. Where as yeah... Good (supposedly in control of all magic too) Magic deity stupid enough to not simply undo evil casters anywhere by requiring you to be good to cast magic.. Yeah.. Death to Mystra. *dances on her grave* Don't get me started the "Npcs everywhere that can handle any -real- problems in Faerun" or the "Can't play here cause x is here and doing this and it would interfere with canon" crap that frequently popped up.
Like I said I'm more of a throw in darker elements, horror elements keep the power level low and go from there kinda guy for the most part.*
Hour Glass mage? Don't tell me they gave someone else Raistlin's eyes? *Gets the flame thrower ready* And you wonder why I'm glad no more material is being published at the moment. I got out post Summerflame... more on accident.. then I bought the Campaign Setting for 3e (pretty good) then.. Age of Mortals.. (gag) I'm glad I stayed away from DL. Maybe they'll retcon... I mean re imagine.. certain events... like level 2 people killing gods with -broken- magical items.... and various other doses of stupidity.
*= I do have a setting that I based on Final Fantasy 12, and Eberron. Technomagic is just cool. So are fantasy mechas. Still have horror in the setting though.
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Margaret Weis Productions (formerly Sovereign Press) no longer has the Dragonlance license because WotC brought all of its intellectual property back in-house immediately prior to the launch of 4th edition. It is protecting its brands and most likely isn't completely sure what it's going to do with all of them, but it didn't involve us, and that's just how it shook out.
MWP/SP had considerable success with our Dragonlance product. Our freelancers, designers, artists, editors, and managers were all fans of the setting, heavily invested in making the books look as good as they could, and were rewarded with a favorable response from the DL fanbase. We were responsible for the most Dragonlance supplements and adventures in almost 20 years, consistently keeping up to date with WotC's developments in the novels and core D&D game products, and committed to serving the fan community.
Decisions made by the powers that be regarding the future of the game setting, the novels, and everything else have nothing to do with our performance as line developers and stewards of DL fandom, nor do they have anything to do with secret conspiracies, bad sales, poor plot lines, or anything else. It's simply a matter of brand management, regrouping, and other internal matters that only Hasbro and Wizards of the Coast are privy to. They're doing this across the board, not just with Dragonlance but with all of their properties. While I would dearly love to write more Dragonlance novels and design more Dragonlance game material (for 4e, now that it's out) that's entirely in the hands of the people who own the IP.
4e Dragonlance would be fairly easy to homebrew. Make Dragonborn evil, no clerics, maybe no paladins, halflings to Kender, etc. Not that hard (of course I'm sure to offend as I'm just a huge fan of the original books and not a hardcore DL geek...)
We actually are homebrewing DL. My GF was running a 3.5 DL game and we decided we would like to shift to 4E. The party was as follows:
Kender Rogue Human Mystic Elven, Qualinesti Rogue/Beguiler Human Dragon Shaman Human Fighter/Cleric/Knight of the Crown (Next level would give him Knight of the Sword)
Yeah...The complicated one was me...The conversation went "There are no Paladins in Krynn" "Fine, I'll be a Knight of Solomnia, then"...If only I read the campaign book before I said that. Anyway...New party is as follows, respectively:
Halfling Rogue (We are calling him a Kender, but using the Halfling rules) Human Cleric (It fits really well with his Brute Mystic idea) Eladrin Warlock Dragonborn Shaman (The GM is ruling that he is going to slowly take on the appearance of a dragon) Human Warlord (Which we are calling a Knight of the Crown. Knight Paragon Path is going to be Knight of the Sword, and Demi-god Epic Destiny is going to be Knight of the Rose)
We have had to rework some of the encounters in the module she is running because a lot of the monsters either do not exist in 4E, or are not level appropriate when you switch the setting. With my help she is doing very well, however. We have even created our first Artifact in the "Shard of Light" and am creating another one for the "Dragonlance".
On a side note...My Oriental Campaign is being a little #$@!% in conversion...I'm having to make up, from scratch, six different Heroic classes, a couple dozen Paragon Paths, a half dozen Epic Destinies, several races, equipment, rituals, monsters, GAH!!!
