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10 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2003 - 1:12PM
#21
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Originally posted by Tertek
The first idea I thought of was that the ancient Baatorians could be fallen celestials who turned away from the path of good. Of course, that's an awful lot like the Biblical Lucifer and his Fall. It makes sense, but may not be the best alternative.
Interesting thought, but I would put it the other way around. I would make the ancient Baatorians a race of ineffable evil, and the Baatezu the decendents of the Archons who, in their zeal to destroy the ancient race, tainted themselves with Evil. Who knows, maybe the Baatorians were dying out on their own and they tricked the Archons into genocide so that there would be a new infernal race. (or maybe a few Baatorians started this to wipe out their competition among their own kind)
As for physical appearence, I picture ancient Baatorians as looking exactly like human beings. I've got this concept of them being even more cunning than 'loths...Gehenna is between the Waste and Baator, maybe the ancient Baatorians were 'loths.
A new jacket? Thank you. The sleeves are too long, though, and why are their so many buckles?
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10 years ago ::
Sep 10, 2003 - 4:21PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2003
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Except that we do know what the ancient Baatorians did look like. There's been several examples of them in canon, both directly seen and hinted at (locked in the ice of Cania). Imagine a giant slug with wierd spikes and/or tentacles, and makes it literally immune to anything short of a wish. That's about where the critters stand... There was also an immature ancient Baatorian in Tales of the Infinite Staircase that resembled a Nupperibo with a mass of tentacles sprouting from its stomach. And while standard Nupperibo are utterly mindless, this particular example was frighteningly intelligent. Of course, the ecology of the Baatorians is rather unknown, and so there might still be transitory forms between those observed, or further forms beyond those observed. Personally it makes sense to me for the ancient Baatorians to be a native species, and the Baatezu an interloper race within Baator. This of course fits in quite nicely with the fact that Baatezu don't spawn naturally from the essence of their 'home plane' and it also fits into the Yugoloth legends of the creation of both Tanar'ri and Baatezu from the taint of chaos and law purified out of themselves by their own creators the Baernaloth. And as much as the Ancient Baatorians are scary, the Baernaloth are ten times more so. But I'm biased towards the 'loths, I fully admit it. 
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 12:29PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2003
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OK thanks for the ideas, everyone. I'll try to combine some of these, but feel free to keep discussing this one. I think the idea of the proto-multiverse is awesome and the history of the planes is one of the coolest aspects of Planescape. Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder And as much as the Ancient Baatorians are scary, the Baernaloth are ten times more so. But I'm biased towards the 'loths, I fully admit it.
Woah. Hey, slow down there. What did you just say? Biased toward the yugoloths? I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. Since when? Did anyone else here ever catch on that Shemeska was somewhat biased toward the yugoloths?
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 4:15PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2003
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Originally posted by Factol Rhys
Woah. Hey, slow down there. What did you just say? Biased toward the yugoloths? I had no idea. Absolutely no idea. Since when? Did anyone else here ever catch on that Shemeska was somewhat biased toward the yugoloths?
I said nothing of the sort, nothing. I don't know what you possibly were thinking... oh thats right, you weren't thinking, you Ciphers don't do that.
It must have just been that wierd, so called Cadence thing you all babble about. The Cadence must have said something about me being biased towards the Yugoloths. Absolutely, must have been that, because as we all know such a paragon of grace and virtue as myself would never be biased, much less admit to something that wasn't true. After all, I never lie.
*looks at pack of toadies and bodyguards who all nod vigorously* See? Absolutely. 
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 4:26PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Aug 10, 2009
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I'm running a campaign about a paladin in hell and i'm thinking about using the ancient baatorians as something in the end. i have a thread on one of the other boards: http://boards1.wizards.com/showthread.p … adid=95184i just want to tell you all that you've given me a lot of different ideas and you've shared a lot of information that i wouldn't normally have had. thanks.
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 4:39PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2003
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Originally posted by Shemeska the Marauder such a paragon of grace and virtue as myself
Grace + virtue = Yugoloth?  Did the Lady change things around again? I have to get out of Elysium more often.
By the way, we members of the Transcendant Order do not babble. That is saved for the Xaositects and their chaotic ways. Nor do we exclaim our unity with the Cadence of the Planes. We recruit no one. We have no need to. Our members join our faction on their own because they discover that it is what they must do to achieve their true potential.
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 4:53PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2003
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The Arcanaloth waves off the former factol with an idle brush of her well manicured hand. "As I said, grace and virtue. Just ask any berk on the street and he'll tell you the same, after a glance over their shoulder and a look of fear before they answer somewhat hastily." "That said, I shouldn't take up the time of one of Sigil's more influencial citizens, even if you don't dress as well as I do." The 'loth and her retinue walk off, her shrill laugh echoing down the street.  .... aaanyways, back to the Ancient Baatorians. Kyle_the_DM, glad you found some useful info here. Hope the campaign goes well, let us know.
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 7:55PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2003
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What do people think of the idea that the Yugoloth towers (Tower of the Arcanoloths, Khin-Oin, Tower of Incarnate Pain) channel the energies of the Lower Planes into an Astral Rift as part of a plot to invert the rift, reverting the multiverse to exactly as it was before the fall of the baatorians?
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 8:07PM
#29
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2003
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I'd say no, since it would negate all of the work the 'loths have done to foster and create the Blood War with themselves pulling on its strings to dictate its ebb and flow. Going back to before the Ancient Baatorians fell would remove any chance they had of uniting the Baatezu and Tanar'ri under their own banner as a united lower planes, which I honestly think would be one of their eventual goals as a race.
You could treat the Blood War as either a distraction for the upper planes, and to busy the law and chaos touched fiends; and/or a single gigantic experiment designed to foster evil in the multiverse and examine the play between the different flavors of evil. You might see the Baernaloth as the original designers of this, having now sat back in mythical anonymity to watch their experiment mature and unfold before they and their children the Yugoloths embark on the next step of their ultimate plane.
The Yugoloth towers won't be linked for some time, the Tower of Incarnate Pain has been destroyed by the Gehreleths on several occasions, and Apomps is unlikely to allow it to be finished anytime soon if he gets his way. A family spat like no other. Apomps simply won't allow his former bretheren the Baern to succeed in whatever they ultimate plan. The price for their rejection of him and his own children the 'leths. Unless of course if you think the Baern allowed him to do so. But thats a big if. They may have darks even the powers don't have, but in no way are they omniscient. Though we 'loths would like to think they are. :D
Personally its my feeling once the towers are complete, the 'loths may seek to put an end to the Blood War, but likely only after laying the groundwork for other plots, whatever they may be. And that assumes the Baatezu and Tanar'ri don't object to this wholesale manipulation of themselves, or the Rilmani don't intercede, or the Celestials don't catch wind of this since an end to the Blood War would be devestating to the upper planes.
Shemeska the Marauder, Freelancer 5 / Yugoloth 10
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10 years ago ::
Sep 11, 2003 - 8:20PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jan 14, 2003
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That was mostly my plan. The characters come across the Tower of Incarnate Pain (which none but one of the players has heard of before) , the last one to be completed, and have to stop the nefarious scheme before the last tower is complete. I mean, sure, the Yugoloths also have the Blood War that they scrag the other fiends through, and also have their own interests, and the Towers also serve as gathering points for their race, but if I were to make them also gather these energies (which I guess would just be pure evil  ) how could I explain the Yugoloth's cooperation? Could it be a cult of yugoloths, acting under orders from the Baatorians, who are unable to fulfill their own plans due to their imprisonment? Could the Yugoloths have created the Baatorians? Could the Yugoloths be the Baatorians (remember, unlike the other fiends, they are originally spawned from the lower planes) and the ones that are imprisoned are just the most powerful in their race?
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