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3 years ago ::
Oct 25, 2006 - 4:47AM
#1
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Any estimates ?
Rifllian has about 1,700 "mostly elves" but what else ?
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3 years ago ::
Oct 25, 2006 - 9:55AM
#2
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Rifllian has about 1,700 "mostly elves" but what else ?[/quote]
I haven't got the PWAs here, but I've looked the data up in some discussions we had on the Italian MMB, and it seems that PWA 1-3 sets the number of Callarii elves to 30000, and those of Vyalia elves to 10000.
These numbers may be a somewhat high, though, if you consider that Alfheim has only 63000 elves according to the GAZ.
Consider that one minor Alfheimer clan has less than 4000 elves, and major ones cannot have more than 6-8000. Even if the Callarii were equivalent to a major clan, the total number of 30000 seems really too much.
OTOH, Erewan has a population of 26000, though not necessarily all elves (but still probably a large majority of elves).
So, I'd say anywhere between 8000 and 30000 would be a good guess.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 26, 2006 - 7:01AM
#3
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The number of elves in Alfheim is whacked. I think I tripled it or even more for HackWurld... I'll have to look it up.
The official population is too few to maintain an ostensibly medieval/low Renaissance culture as the region has... the vastly greater number of humans and humanoids would simply overrun the elves, magic forest or no.
I think I recalculated the Callarii numbers, too. I'll need to dig that up.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 26, 2006 - 9:28AM
#4
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The official population is too few to maintain an ostensibly medieval/low Renaissance culture as the region has... the vastly greater number of humans and humanoids would simply overrun the elves, magic forest or no.[/quote]
Well, it's exactly what happened -- the SE overrun the elves.
Note that the elves can't compare to a medieval/renaissance culture, since their use of the land is much less intensive (mostly careful hunting and gathering, with small gardens), so the population density must be significantly lower.
GP
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3 years ago ::
Oct 26, 2006 - 12:27PM
#5
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GAZ1 says that according to human envoys of Stefan Karameikos, there are about 7,500 Callarii elves in the central forests of the Grand Duchy.
I think the numbers given in the PWAs are perhaps overestimated. 8,000 elves is enough for a medium-sized clan like the Callarii, spread among the various forests of the Grand Duchy; in fact they inhabit not only the Radlebb Woods and the eastern Dymrak Forests, but also the forested hills south of Highforge (stille according to GAZ1), and a clan also the Achelos Woods (see the background of the pregenerated PC Kavva Lindenelm, in M5).
Moreover, the whole Vyalia clan numbers about 10,000 elves (half in Karameikos, the other half in Thyatis), so I would say that the Callarii should number anywhere from 7,500 and 10,000.
Regarding Alfheim, I also think the 75,000 elves listed in GAZ5 are a little to few. I tend to follow the population number given in TM2, which lists 180,500 elves for the Kingdom of Alfheim.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 26, 2006 - 3:51PM
#6
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Moreover, the whole Vyalia clan numbers about 10,000 elves (half in Karameikos, the other half in Thyatis)[/quote]
Given that the Vyalia clan have a dominion in Thyatis, I would probably place only about 15% in Karameikos, and those in Karameikos I would play as being rejectionist towards the idea of Foresters (and hence more distant to humans). That seems (at least to me) to fit better as the Duchy of Machetos (where Stefan is from) is bordered to the north by County Vyalia, so I would expect him to have had considerable dealings with them prior to his takeover of Traladara. And yet in GAZ1 they are hardly mentioned. This, to me anyway, implies some difference in internal clan politics there.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2006 - 3:54AM
#7
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GAZ1 says that according to human envoys of Stefan Karameikos, there are about 7,500 Callarii elves in the central forests of the Grand Duchy.[/quote]
Thanks. GAZ1 numbers are definitely more reasonable, and fit with what is known of Alfheim.
GP
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3 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2006 - 6:15AM
#8
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This is not exactly related to this issue, but it reminded me of an important
dramatic effect that the small number of elves has. It must affect their view on the value of life, especially elven life.
I also have used the figure around 200 000 as the population of Alfheim. During the Nomad War in our campaign Alfheim fought on Darokin's side in many decisive battles. The total elven losses were about 2000, which to the Darokin humans seemed quite small. (Darokin lost tens of thousands in soldiers and civilians, and more later due to shortages of food and shelter during winter.)
But to the elves any significant loss of life is huge. There are relatively few elves, and their population growth is small. The reactions of the elves to the war became an important element in the atmosphere of the campaign. It helped to portray the importance of life to them on the one hand, and the diversity of their culture on the other.
- Some clans would become more isolated and even more opposed to taking part in the affairs of the world.
- During the war some elves became enraged and ferocious due to the loss of friends and relatives, engaging in bloody reprisals.
- For some the hatred towards humans awakened once more.
- Others saw it as a signal that the elves must become much more active in order to prevent such losses in the future. (There are for example some who intervene in the resulting Darokinian civil war.)
- Many lose direction during the war, becoming "more human" and drifting like loose leaves.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 27, 2006 - 7:21PM
#9
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Regarding Alfheim, I also think the 75,000 elves listed in GAZ5 are a little to few. I tend to follow the population number given in TM2, which lists 180,500 elves for the Kingdom of Alfheim.[/quote]
Compared to the population of the Shiye-Lawr in Alphatia, who cover an area almost 4 times as large as Alfheim, but who have a listed population of only 55,000, I think the 75,000 mark is a lot more reasonable.
Population figures in general are kind of whacked all around Mystara, though.
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3 years ago ::
Oct 28, 2006 - 8:12AM
#10
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Compared to the population of the Shiye-Lawr in Alphatia, who cover an area almost 4 times as large as Alfheim, but who have a listed population of only 55,000, I think the 75,000 mark is a lot more reasonable.
Population figures in general are kind of whacked all around Mystara, though.[/quote]
But I haven't said I wouldn't change Shiye-Lawrish population. :P
I don't think 75,000 elves is reasonable for Alfheim: the Glantrian Erewans alone number about 26,000 the small Belcadiz elves around 13,000, and the Wendar elves about 200,000; not to talk about Shadow Elves, whose population IIRC is 550,000... When you consider that Alfheim is THE elvish realm and that it has the home of the elven race since BC1800, 75,000 elves seems really low.
Moreover, there's a note in GAZ5 which says that in the 2nd century AC, when the Shadow Elves discovered the surface races and pretended from King Celedryl of Alfheim the gift of half the Canolbarth Forest, their population was about the same as that of the Alfheim elves. So you'd have to decrease SE population or to make the Alfheim one larger; I prefer the latter. 
And finally 180,500 elves make a perfect population density for Alfheim, i.e. 0,3 inhabitants per square kilometer, which is ideal for a population of hunter-gatherers. This obviously don't includes the population of Alfheim Town. Probably the Shiye-Lawr's population density is even lower, becouse Shiyes are more reservate and isolationist than Alfheim elves, and I imagine their forest even darker. 
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