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Majorafire77]It seems like every time I decide to poke around the Greyhawk board I see a bunch of people disgusted with Eberron here. What's up with that? Eberron didn't replace Greyhawk, that much is obvious. Eberron came out just over a year ago, while Greyhawk has been getting the shaft since the gazeteer came out. WotC killed Greyhawk, not Eberron. Why, then, does 95% of the people here seem to hate it so much?

It just seems that so many people talk about how much is wrong with Eberron (which for the most part is untrue) that they don't see how much is right about it.

You're a spy, sent here to start a dialogue intended to snare the last remaining grognards and convert them to Eberron fans. Be gone, foul demon!! We know what you're u wrote:

Majorafire77]All of the technological things in Eberron make perfect sense, and if the mages in Greyhawk got smart enough it would probably happen there too. The skyscrapers and trains are both a direct result of two magical things. Manifest zones (where one plane bleeds onto another at certain locations, in this case the equivalent to the elemental plane of air in the setting) and Elemental Bonding (see above description of Khyber Shard). Same goes with airships, elemental galleons, and a bunch of other things in Eberron. It makes perfect sense.

Or so you say. To me it doesn't and I don't particularly appreciate the derogatory remarks aimed at wizards whose names still grace the pages of the PHB 3 editions later.

That's the difference between a setting where magic is respected as a powerful and yet difficult-to-master force and one where it has become cheap and integral to the lives of just about everyone. That trick has been attempted before elsewhere *cough*Halruaa*cough* and I didn't much care for it back then either.

All of the technological things in Eberron make perfect sense, and if the mages in Greyhawk got smart enough it would probably happen there too. The skyscrapers and trains are both a direct result of two magical things. Manifest zones (where one plane bleeds onto another at certain locations, in this case the equivalent to the elemental plane of air in the setting) and Elemental Bonding (see above description of Khyber Shard). Same goes with airships, elemental galleons, and a bunch of other things in Eberron. It makes perfect sense.[/quote]
Or so you say. To me it doesn't and I don't particularly appreciate the derogatory remarks aimed at wizards whose names still grace the pages of the PHB 3 editions later.

That's the difference between a setting where magic is respected as a powerful and yet difficult-to-master force and one where it has become cheap and integral to the lives of just about everyone. That trick has been attempted before elsewhere *cough*Halruaa*cough* and I didn't much care for it back then either.

Majorafire77]Hold up. The PCs will experience the lay of the land a lot more from the deck of an airship than being warped from the west side of the continent to the east side of the continent. Plus, a lot of stuff can take place on an airship or on a train that simply couldn't happen in Greyhawk due to a lack of both. What happens when someone on board decides that he wants to destroy the elemental bound within the Khyber shard aboard an airship (keeping it afloat), for example? Does stuff like that happen in Greyhawk?

No, I'll grant you that. Here, in GH, trains don't get attacked by halfling bandits riding dino and people don't worry about crashing down to earth while they enjoy the view on an aerial trip from Chendl to Rel Mord. Oh wait, I forgot, GH isn't about trying to duplicate 21st century transportation. Here, we still walk and ride.

Hold up. The PCs will experience the lay of the land a lot more from the deck of an airship than being warped from the west side of the continent to the east side of the continent. Plus, a lot of stuff can take place on an airship or on a train that simply couldn't happen in Greyhawk due to a lack of both. What happens when someone on board decides that he wants to destroy the elemental bound within the Khyber shard aboard an airship (keeping it afloat), for example? Does stuff like that happen in Greyhawk?[/quote]
No, I'll grant you that. Here, in GH, trains don't get attacked by halfling bandits riding dino and people don't worry about crashing down to earth while they enjoy the view on an aerial trip from Chendl to Rel Mord. Oh wait, I forgot, GH isn't about trying to duplicate 21st century transportation. Here, we still walk and ride.

Majorafire77]And tell me what's wrong with playing a warforged (which is more than a normal mindless construct, as described above), a shifter (which isn't a lycanthrope), or a changeling (which gets a +10 bonus on disguise checks). There is no problem with any of the Eberron races at all.

Again, so you say. To me, it's the "Drizzt Syndrome" all over again. For years, players whined about wanting to play drows but they usually couldn't because the latter were all evil. Enter a certain drow ranger and now everyone and their mother can take that race because there is a working example of a "good" dark elf.

Same thing with constructs, lycanthropes, dopplegangers, undeads, etc...

Some players just have to play the bad guys because those races are deemed "kewl" compared to a "mere" human, dwarf or halfling.

And, yes, I know the concept isn't new. Accessories such as Unearthed Arcana (1E), the Complete Humanoid Handbook (2E) and Savage Species (3E) were already devoted to it.

Well, maybe other DM allow it. Heck! Maybe they even favor it. But it won't happen in any campaign of mine. Funny how players always ask for the most powerful races but rarely (if ever) for the weaker ones. To me, it smells strongly of powergaming.

For the record, I am not 100% opposed to some other races than those of the PHB, but a player has to come up with a darn good reason and better be able to pull one hell of a job at role-playing it. In other words, it will be the exception that proves the rule rather than the other way around.

And tell me what's wrong with playing a warforged (which is more than a normal mindless construct, as described above), a shifter (which isn't a lycanthrope), or a changeling (which gets a +10 bonus on disguise checks). There is no problem with any of the Eberron races at all.[/quote]
Again, so you say. To me, it's the "Drizzt Syndrome" all over again. For years, players whined about wanting to play drows but they usually couldn't because the latter were all evil. Enter a certain drow ranger and now everyone and their mother can take that race because there is a working example of a "good" dark elf.

Same thing with constructs, lycanthropes, dopplegangers, undeads, etc...

Some players just have to play the bad guys because those races are deemed "kewl" compared to a "mere" human, dwarf or halfling.

And, yes, I know the concept isn't new. Accessories such as Unearthed Arcana (1E), the Complete Humanoid Handbook (2E) and Savage Species (3E) were already devoted to it.

Well, maybe other DM allow it. Heck! Maybe they even favor it. But it won't happen in any campaign of mine. Funny how players always ask for the most powerful races but rarely (if ever) for the weaker ones. To me, it smells strongly of powergaming.

For the record, I am not 100% opposed to some other races than those of the PHB, but a player has to come up with a darn good reason and better be able to pull one hell of a job at role-playing it. In other words, it will be the exception that proves the rule rather than the other way around.

Majorafire77]The basic idea is that not everything is as it seems. No longer can the PCs say "Hey look! Vampire! It must be evil! No question about it! Chaaaarge!" It requires a lot more thought on the part of the PCs. I don't think the Heretic feat covers everything that abolishing almost all alignment restrictions does.

And that's new? Good chromatic dragons, good undeads (dare I say good drows?), etc.. already existed back in 1E. Besides, I was speaking only of the "no AL restriction" for clerics. Not of abolishing it for every species out there. To me, a deity with a certain AL and which keeps an eye on his worshippers wouldn't allow more than a few heretics among his clergy. In Eberron - going strictly by the rules of the setting - the Church of the Silver Flame could be made up at 100% of E-aligned clerics. Sorry but that's plain dumb.

The basic idea is that not everything is as it seems. No longer can the PCs say "Hey look! Vampire! It must be evil! No question about it! Chaaaarge!" It requires a lot more thought on the part of the PCs. I don't think the Heretic feat covers everything that abolishing almost all alignment restrictions does.[/quote]
And that's new? Good chromatic dragons, good undeads (dare I say good drows?), etc.. already existed back in 1E. Besides, I was speaking only of the "no AL restriction" for clerics. Not of abolishing it for every species out there. To me, a deity with a certain AL and which keeps an eye on his worshippers wouldn't allow more than a few heretics among his clergy. In Eberron - going strictly by the rules of the setting - the Church of the Silver Flame could be made up at 100% of E-aligned clerics. Sorry but that's plain dumb.

Majorafire77]No, they're advancing their plots. The Dreaming Dark has agents all across Khorvaire, working behind the scenes until the opportunity comes for them to strike, pitting the entire continent against itself in another war. Then Riedra invades Khorvaire and it's game over. The PCs can be rooting out lesser DD spies during the lower levels and taking out the bigger ones later on.

And plus, the bad guys aren't necessarily all aligned with each other. The Chamber, along with what they normally do, is constantly rooting out members of the Lords of Dust. If the DD doesn't like what a particular cult of the dragon below is doing, they'll put a stop to it. Stuff like that happens in Eberron, I don't know if it happens in Greyhawk.

So, basically, all higher level NPC stay in their corner of the setting till the PC have enough xp to be worthy enemies?

And, yes, that kind of stuff happens in GH too. We call it "politics". Ask the Scarlet Brotherhood for advice. They pratically invented the concept.

No, they're advancing their plots. The Dreaming Dark has agents all across Khorvaire, working behind the scenes until the opportunity comes for them to strike, pitting the entire continent against itself in another war. Then Riedra invades Khorvaire and it's game over. The PCs can be rooting out lesser DD spies during the lower levels and taking out the bigger ones later on.

And plus, the bad guys aren't necessarily all aligned with each other. The Chamber, along with what they normally do, is constantly rooting out members of the Lords of Dust. If the DD doesn't like what a particular cult of the dragon below is doing, they'll put a stop to it. Stuff like that happens in Eberron, I don't know if it happens in Greyhawk.[/quote]
So, basically, all higher level NPC stay in their corner of the setting till the PC have enough xp to be worthy enemies?

And, yes, that kind of stuff happens in GH too. We call it "politics". Ask the Scarlet Brotherhood for advice. They pratically invented the concept.

Majorafire77]Ah, but the thing is that you like Eberron, you just don't know it yet.

No, I do not. Frankly, before you came over I was ready to admit Eberron had a few good points as long as no one tried to sell me the setting over and over. However, as Ivid pointed out, this board belongs to GH fans.

It's one thing to come here and ask us why we supposedly hate your setting. It's entirely another to attempt to force-feed it to us. The more you try, the more stubborn I'll become about defending "my" setting.

Let's get one thing straight. IMHO, Eberron doesn't hold a candle to GH. Never has and never will. You can dance on your head, quote Elminster or even ask Keith Baker to drop by in person, and it still wouldn't change a thing.

GH has it all and always will. Long live the Hawk! : wrote: