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4 years ago ::
Jul 17, 2009 - 8:56PM
#141
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Date Joined:
Sep 19, 2004
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Personally, I still like to think of the Shadowfell as being mostly the Plane of Shadow, a pale reflection of Eberron, but if you, say, travel "up" you hit Mabar, the Endless Night (literally flying into the night sky of the Shadowfell) and if you travel "down" you hit Dollurh (literally the underworld, or "shadowdark" of the core cosmology) where souls hang out.
That's pretty much exactly what I was imagining when I was just reading about these changes!
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4 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2009 - 10:27AM
#142
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Date Joined:
Jun 29, 2003
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Secondly: I always imagined that the archdevils (and the demon princes, for that matter) were native to Shavarath. They, and the archons, represent different aspects of war. The devils represent war as conquest. The demons represent war as destruction. The archons represent war as protection. The devils would be the fulcrum of the balance, allying with the demons or the archons as it suited them.
Speaking of things that have changed. Has the nature of the eternal war in Shavarath changed? Demons and Devils are still be pretty much the same, but the archons of 4E are nothing like the archons of 3E.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:36PM
#143
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- Eberron Designer
- Moo, Baby, Moo
Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2002
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Secondly: I always imagined that the archdevils (and the demon princes, for that matter) were native to Shavarath. They, and the archons, represent different aspects of war.
I've always been of the opinion that the spirits of Shavarath - at least, as initially envisioned - were incarnations of war, representing the noble and evil aspects of war itself. The problem with this is that IMO this leaves them with very little interest in Eberron. They aren't interested in corrupting mortals; they have a war to fight. So what's the option for the DM who just wants a vrock in the Demon Wastes that has nothing to do with Shavarath?
With this in mind, when I worked on the Eberron conversion of the Savage Tide adventure path, I suggested that while they might be the most numerous of Khyber's spawn, the rakshasa weren't the only native fiends of Eberron. I presented the idea that Demogorgon was essentially a demi-Overlord trapped in Khyber itself - with the idea that the planes of the Abyss might actually be demiplanes within Khyber, that could be reached by traveling down into the world. The demons serving Demogorgon were thus creations of Khyber with no ties to Shavarath - chaotic embodiments of evil as opposed to the evil of war. They might be MECHANICALLY similar to the demons of Shavarath, but their motivations and behavior would be quite different - and my suggestion was that someone with decent Arcana could distinguish the two by studying them. So you have the eternal struggle of Shavarath fought by spirits of war, but you also have spirits of malice on Eberron, children of Khyber who also served the Overlords during the Age of Demons.
I don't have a particular point here, other than to say that I've always seen the inhabitants of Shavarath being spirits of war - but I feel that it's possible to find a niche for more traditional devils and demons if you want them. To me, a conversation with a demon of Shavarath should be quite different from one with an agent of Khyber.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 18, 2009 - 4:39PM
#144
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- Eberron Designer
- Moo, Baby, Moo
Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2002
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Speaking of things that have changed. Has the nature of the eternal war in Shavarath changed?
Actually, yes. The war has been given an end goal and the idea that people are coming from other planes to fight there. I imagine that there will be people who prefer this, as it gives a motive for the battle that mortals can relate to. However, if you prefer it as a more metaphorical struggle fought by incarnations of battle, you can certainly hold onto the original idea.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 19, 2009 - 5:17PM
#145
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2008
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So sure, it's called "Dolurrh, the Shadowfell". But to me as setting creator, all that's changed is the $%#&ing name. None of the stories I'd tell about Dolurrh in 4E will be any different than those I'd have told in 4E. If it makes it easier for people who DIDN'T play Eberron before to adjust to the world, swell.
It does. As someone who doesn't have any ECGs and whose players don't have the EPG I've been referring to the Shadowfell by both names. Its the Shadowfell a.k.a Dolurrh. This gives me and my players a distinct idea on what Dolurrh is. It has the shadar-kai, Although it doesn't have the Raven Queen. In my Eberron the Shadar-kai don't have a god that even resembles the Raven Queen. Spoilers for my Shadar-kai
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In my Eberron the Shadar-kai have lived there for as long as they remember. Ancient legends say the Shadar-kai were led to Dolurrh by a messiah/prophet/god to escape some sort of calamity. But many question these legends. Some say the gods do not exist. More recently (within the last few hundred years) there are those who say the gods have abandoned the Shadar-kai as a few Shadar-kai have traveled to the other planes and learned new concepts.
In my Eberron all of the Shadar-kai gave in to ennui and so they lived a meaningless and thoughtless existence within Dolurrh. Although about a thousand years ago at a time when Dolurrh was conterminous with Eberron, they were attacked by explorers from Eberron and felt pain. This sparked something within the few Shadar-kai who survived the attack, and slowly over that year they were able to gain a semblence of self through extreme experiences. In the following years the Shadar-kai have been relearning many concepts such as language and community. Now they have many cities spread throughout Dolurrh.
Yes all of this contradicts what Dragon #372 says about Shadar-kai in Eberron. But it makes more sense for my vision of Eberron and so I outright ignore what the article says  Of course depending on what the ECG says, I may change some of that I have no idea how compatible all that is with the 4e ECG of Dolurrh. Although if its 100% incompatible, I'll be changing what the ECG says and sticking with what I've got 
Well, just as an observation, you'll note that he doesn't show up in the deity lists of either the EPG or ECG AS a god, so you're not alone. The text states that he CLAIMS to be a god, nothing more.
Considering the Silver Flame and Blood of Vol both grant channel divinities (well, the Blood of Vol does for me, even if I have to make one up ) I'm okay with Asmodeus granting one as well. Although depending on what section page 261 is for (I can see him leading one side of the forces in the Plane of Battle) depends on how focused he is on Eberron. If he is in the Plane of Battle I can see him ignoring Eberron entirely and the only people who worship him are his forces in the Plane of Battle.
After all, what is a god? The Blood of Vol believes in the power of the individual (specifically the power in their blood) and so (from my understanding) anyone can become a "divine being" i.e. a god. While the Silver Flame is simply an energy source that acts as a prison (or a prison that acts as an energy source), and yet it is listed as a god. Then there is the Sovereign Host who exist within the fabric of existence rather then in a specific domain within the Astral Sea. No-one has ever seen one of the gods (or at least, no-one has seen one of the gods and been believed ). And yet they're gods as well.
So if Asmodeus wants to call himself a god, I say why not?
I originally railed against the change as a retcon we don't need, but after assurances that it didn't change much and that the orrery was still argued as true in-setting, I reserved my final judgement until after I got the book.
I was personally praying for a massive retcon (I liked 4th ed's simpler approach) but was willing to wait for the ECG before I pass judgment
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 1:50AM
#146
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- Eberron Designer
- Moo, Baby, Moo
Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2002
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Considering the Silver Flame and Blood of Vol both grant channel divinities (well, the Blood of Vol does for me, even if I have to make one up ) I'm okay with Asmodeus granting one as well.
I'm all for DMs doing whatever's fun or makes sense to them. But just explaining MY view on "One of these things is not like the others"...
The Silver Flame is a known energy force with a clear global manifestation in the world (binding the Overlords). It's not necessarily "granting" Channel Divinity as much as the PC is learning how to tap into that energy source and draw power from it... which, after all, is why it's possible for a SF priest to use his power for evil purposes.
The Blood of Vol holds that the power you're drawing on is YOU. Their entire premise is that there is a spark of divinity in all living beings - that you, essentially, are your own god.
The Sovereign Host holds that the Sovereigns are part of the infrastructure of reality. Any time a smith lifts a hammer, Onatar is there with him. The Devourer is at the heart of every storm. There is no battle without the three faces of war. So the Channel Divinity is the character drawing on their favor, but they are omnipresent (presuming, of course, that they actually exist)... and in some ways you could argue that they too are energy sources. Dol Dorn supports any action of martial skill - your avenger may be better on drawing on his power, but he's not actually "listening" to a plea and deciding to help you, he's just present and you know how to draw on his strength.
So my question is that if you grant a CD to Asmodeus - who is a physically active being walking around doing things, someone you can get into a fight with - what does it mean? Is he literally hearing your call and granting your request? Could he choose to DENY your attempt to CD? If you can draw power from him, could he draw power from YOU if he decides to (like, say, when he's fighting some epic-level adventurers and needs a little boost)? If YOU get into a fight with him, can he snap his fingers and turn off all of your powers? Or is it actually the same premise as the Blood of Vol - You THINK he's granting you power, he CLAIMS he's granting you power, but the fact of the matter is that you're drawing on the Divinity Within, the force of the Shadow, or something else entirely. This is, after all, essentially the premise of the "Make Your Own Religion" approach in 3.5 Eberron - there are a range of power sources out there that you can draw on even if you THINK you're drawing on something else.
Again, I'm all for you doing whatever you want - I think there's some interesting possibilities here. I'm just saying that the Silver Flame and Blood of Vol are themselves quite different in nature... and Asmodeus is quite different as well.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 4:12AM
#147
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Well, I hadn't been paying much attention to this thread, but when I saw Baator in the sblocked image below, I had to drop by. Map of the Planes
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That has to be the only change so far that has really confused me. A lot of the others make sense or are based in the need to present core options in a new, more player friendly light (dragonborn, eladrin). The addition of Baator just seems wrong. For a start, it breaks the whole 12+1 motif we have with the planes, and means they can no longer map to dragonmarks and moons. Unless Xoriat has been shunted out of the gang?
The Dragon Above - Eberron news and new content for both 3E and 4E. Home of the Eberron Bestiary.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 5:50AM
#148
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2005
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I don't think this breaks 13-1. I think Baator KEEPS it from being broken.
Xoriat joined the Astral Sea (and Elemental Chaos) in the category of transitive planes (...kinda... more like category of 'planes not counted in 13-1 for various reasons' =P). This WOULD have broken it, but then they gave us Baator--which not only solves some people's problems of "Who's our interplanar bullies? We want our devils!" but keeps the 13-1 from being broken.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 7:03AM
#149
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2001
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I don't understand why Xoriat is in the astral sea. I thought it was a part of the Dragon Below? I'm confused.
I do like how they used the Progenitor Dragons to explain the World Axis cosmology. It really makes it feel Eberronian. Coupled with the fact that the upcoming book for the Elemental Chaos is entitled "The Plane Below" and it makes perfect sense to map it to Khyber which has always been The Dragon Below.[/quote]
Personally, I still think they made the 4E cosmology more like the 3 progenitor dragons of Eberron and went from there. Because it honestly seems to fit very well. Albeit, I'm not sure why Baator was put in there because even with my (generally limited understanding) I never had a problem with the idea devils were just a kind of daemon that came from Kyber.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 20, 2009 - 7:44AM
#150
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- Eberron Designer
- Moo, Baby, Moo
Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2002
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I don't understand why Xoriat is in the astral sea. I thought it was a part of the Dragon Below? I'm confused.
It's neither. Per the current cosmology, Misterfido has it right. Xoriat is actually a separate, fourth category - thus merging it with the traditional idea of the Far Realm. Hence it's present, but as a distant dot on the map.
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