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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 7:04PM
#121
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Date Joined:
Apr 21, 2001
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As for the quote: Dragonmarked, The Aberrant Adventurer, Page 158:
It's interesting that in the post above you claimed this was "The way Eberron works" yet neither quote actually fully supports you.
Before a player takes an aberrant dragonmark, both player and Dungeon Master should discuss the idea ... It is possible to minimize the impact of aberrant dragonmarks in a campaign. If a character's mark is hidden on his body ... The DM might also decide that in her campaign, the majority of the population have let go of old prejudices ... One place where prejudice against aberrants remains in full force is the dragonmarked houses themselves ... Such characters are almos talway sforced from their house, especially if they are children of marked parents or scions of well-established dragonmarked families.
The quote there suggests that the interpretation the events of the War of the Mark have died down can be assumed to be correct. Not everywhere will indeed react with the same hostility to an aberrant mark or out of house mark; though it again notes what nobody has disputed that Dragonmarked houses certainly will.
There's also another part, 157, Aberrant Dragonmarks in the Modern Day:
This quote also doesn't support you.
..In the aftermath of the War of the Mark, the propaganda of the dragonmarked houses depicted aberrants as terrifying monsters. Many aberrant children among the general population are thought to have been killed by their own parents. .... The old superstitions remain, but they are losing their power. ... the Last War have driven such concerns from the ind of the common folk
Because again, we see in the immediate aftermath of the War of the Mark you are correct. But my game is set in the modern period, not in the aftermath of the War of the Mark so it makes sense people have forgot about things since then. The implication from your own quote is exactly this; people have forgot about the horrors the aberrant marks unleashed due to the effects of the last war. While I am certain such events may still happen, the way the quote is worded indicates to me it's not as much as a given in the modern time anymore as it was in the immediate aftermath of the War of the Mark.
So in effect, what I'm seeing is you keeping the timeline immediately after the War of the Mark; rather than the books implications that over time peoples views have become far less obviously homicidal over time (due to events like the great war). This has been my interpretation for a while and I don't think your quotes support what you think they do.
Returning to the original point "This is how Eberron works" I feel both quotes dramatically undermine your statement. Both quotes give immense room for freedom of interpretation to a DM about how aberrant marks are treated; albeit I think everyone agrees that Dragonmarked houses would hate the bits out of them. Neither quote conclusively proves "This is how Eberron works" because both quotes fully support the idea that aberrant marks may not be as poorly reacted to post-war of the mark anymore. It is more correct to state "This is one way Eberron could work" since the war of the mark. It would be more correct again to state "This is up to the DM to interpret how Eberron could work and here are reasons for and against that idea", which is what the book clearly presents to me.
And it seems like the only reason people aren't COMPLETELY terrified of aberrant marks is because since the Karrnath undead armies rose up, Cyre exploded, the Emerald Claw commits war crimes, the monstrous nations rose to power, and even after the war all of the nations are building up huge amounts of destructive force Cold War style... well, even in our modern era, old fears tend to pale when new, fresh, in-your-face ones show up.
Which is exactly the point that both of those quotes made. They are not describing the "Here and now" of aberrant marks. My interpretation (now I have that book as well) is that it's the absolute opposite: people in the modern day are far less worried about aberrant marks than they were in the War of the Mark; making many of these extreme reactions more rare than they were there. The main people I see being concerned about aberrant marks IMO are the dragonmarked houses; but they still have to find out.
I was probably misinterpreting your position. It seemed to me that you were going to make playing a wrong-race-marked character next to impossible to play long-term, singling the person out for punishment and execution at every turn.[/quote]
This is also how I interpreted his position, hence my comment that it was "Passive aggressive".
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 7:17PM
#122
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As for the quote: Dragonmarked, The Aberrant Adventurer, Page 158:
[...]
There's also another part, 157, Aberrant Dragonmarks in the Modern Day:
[...]
Parents killing children if caught with a mark, dragonmarked families kicking out aberrant scions (and we all know some of the houses aren't so friendly as just 'kicking out'). And it seems like the only reason people aren't COMPLETELY terrified of aberrant marks is because since the Karrnath undead armies rose up, Cyre exploded, the Emerald Claw commits war crimes, the monstrous nations rose to power, and even after the war all of the nations are building up huge amounts of destructive force Cold War style... well, even in our modern era, old fears tend to pale when new, fresh, in-your-face ones show up.
So really, the question is not "In stock Eberron, are people terrified of Aberrant marks?" since this answer seems to be quite clear, minus any DM intervention... the question is "Do people feel the same about non-racial marks as Aberrant marks?"
And for my campaign, I say yes. For yours, you may say no; but I humbly disagree.
Ok, I read it and I rather disagree with you. I think your bias for a "dark" Eberron makes you focus on some things to the exclusion of others (but feel free to send this right back at me  ).
What do you know ?
DC 10: Aberrant dragonmarks are similar to the marks of the dragonmarked houses, but carry different powers and are less predictable. Superstition once held that aberrant dragonmarks are a source of misfortune, madness, and death. Those who are known to possess aberrant marks are sometimes shunned. This prejudice has lost much of its power in the modern age.
(emphasis mine)
So to my mind the posters above were right when they asserted the climate you described was that of the War of the Mark and the years that followed.
edit: ah, the poster right above me reiterated that.
That said, the text from Dragonmarked is open-ended enough that it can support your interpretation and even if it didn't, well, you'd naturally be free to do as you wished.
As far as aberrant marks & excoriation go:
Occasionally, unmarked heirs of a dragonmarked house manifest an aberrant dragonmark. Such characters are almost always forced from their house, especially if they are children of marked parents or scions of well-established dragonmarked families.
Today, an excoriate must simply surrender her signet ring, any other property that can be claimed as a gift of the house, and the name of both house and family. Her likeness is circulated through the major enclaves of the house. Heirs of her house are forbidden to provide her with aid or succor, and the other houses typically shun excoriates of any line. Excoriation is a rare punishment, but is often a fate worse than prison for a dragonmarked heir.
In the past, the dragonmarked were excoriated for mingling bloodlines with members of other houses. Today, such dalliances are no longer a crime, but relationships between house heirs remain a dark and unspoken taboo (see the Mixed Marks sidebar, page 156). Excoriation is reserved for serious acts of treason, or for those who violate the fundamental principles of a house and bring shame to its name. Excoriation can be decreed only by a council of viceroys, and only a patriarch can rescind it.[/quote]
So when you say "and we all know some of the houses aren't so friendly as just 'kicking out'" I can't really agree. Expulsion from the house is such a huge punishment that I don't see the Houses taking extra steps (except in the case of dangerous/mad/... individuals of course).
As for the outcast thing, I understand: I like to mix things up. I wouldn't play only outcasts though - I like me some "brave knight" or "bumbling fool" or "wizened sage" from time to time...
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4 years ago ::
Jul 08, 2009 - 7:42PM
#123
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I do think people are taking this too seriously. :D
Now you know the mindset of those who started the war of the marks. I'm sure that if it was up to the posters in this forum the war would start again in no time. :D
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4 years ago ::
Jul 09, 2009 - 9:38PM
#124
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2003
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I'm not normally known for bluntness of comment but after literally thrashing my way through X number of topics on the various message boards I belong to in the last week or so, I've reached the upper limits of patience. To best honest when I see someone post on how "X new rule ruins the system" my response from now on is going to be thus -  These are an evolution of rules, but nobody is holding a gun to your head and shouting "YOU MUST OBEY!" These are the rules and fluff/crunch as Wizards.com sees them. But they are not the final authority/arbiter, you as the DM are. If you do not like the rules, change them to suit your tastes. This is why D&D has so much more to give than video-games in their current generation. A computer game is limited to whatever parameters exist within it's Magic Circle (professional term). D&D is limited only by your imagination. And if you don't like Dragonmarked Houses possibly having members who exist outside the archetypal race, rule against it. If you don't like Eladrin, don't have them appear suddenly post-Mourning. If you don't like Erandis d'Vol being a "waek Paragon encounter", boost her to Epic. As the DM sole responsibility and control rests in your hands. And if you don't like the rules and feel they should be different, only you are to blame if at the next game session you don't like things as they unfold. To whomever has major grievances and seems to lack any solid, cogent backing evidence, please stop clogging up the various boards with your complaints. What I would love to see is more threads saying "I disliked how wizards.com did 4e dragonmarks. So hey I'm going to be constructive and productive and put some differing rules together. Here they are, what do you all think and how can I Improve them (as opposed to negative/derogatory action)? And by extension how can I (the DM and the Player) improve the D&D system? Oh and the latter stuff on this topic about Aberrant Marks and the War of the Mark, great read! Nice to see how people interpret that ear of Eberron's history.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 7:28AM
#125
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Date Joined:
Jun 16, 2004
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Not only do I agree with your post entirely, but you also have a pair of quotes from SMAC. You, sir, are awesome.
Gold is for the mistress, silver for the maid Copper for the craftsman, cunning at his trade." "Good!" said the Baron, sitting in his hall, "But Iron -- Cold Iron -- is master of them all." -Kipling Defenders: We ARE the wall! I've replaced the previous Edition Warring line in my sig with this one, because honestly, everybody needs to work together to make the D&D they like without trampling on somebody else's D&D. Miss d20 Modern? Take a look at Dias Ex Machina Game's UltraModern 4e! I am a hero, not a chump.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 9:42AM
#126
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Date Joined:
Nov 13, 2005
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If you don't like Erandis d'Vol being a "waek Paragon encounter", boost her to Epic.
Incidentally, that reminds me of one of my favorite villains of all time. A seer, true neutral, who had no other abilities other than to know facts about the world around him. He couldn't even predict the future, and he could only (maybe) find information out if he realized the need to ask...
I converted him to 4th Edition... a level 10 half-elf minion with a dagger and Consult Mystic Oracle castable for free.
He's still one of my favorite villains of all time, just because he had an extremely complex set of motives and methods of accomplishing his goals. And in 4E terms, he's a level 10 minion
I don't see what people's problems with low-level villains are. They don't have to be level 33 solo monsters to have the ability to take over/ruin the world =P
They just have to be smart, and have the bare minimum of abilities...
I know the big final battle sequence is a big thing in D&D, but I also like those sequences where you fight through all of the lackeys, beat up the elite henchmen, and get to the leader and... you find out that she's not high level, or overpowered...
She's just really good at what she does. Which happens to NOT be 'fighting'
After all. Even a king can be heroic tier, and he rules a nation.
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4 years ago ::
Jul 10, 2009 - 9:48AM
#127
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Date Joined:
Jan 28, 2003
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Not only do I agree with your post entirely, but you also have a pair of quotes from SMAC. You, sir, are awesome.
ROFL thank-you sir, it's a rare day when somebody actually recognises the references. You made my day truth be told.
And touche Misterfido in regards to "power-level" for villains. Raw strength is fine and all, but having complex and compotent enemies is where their real strength lies, not combat prowess. I'll tip my hat to you for that one .
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4 years ago ::
Jul 22, 2009 - 12:30AM
#128
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While I've bought every book and magazine with Eberron material in it up until now, I guess this is one I finally say no to. It brings actual tears to my eyes to see how my favorite D&D setting has been handled, been made cheap, and served like a greasy burger at a fast food joint. 
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4 years ago ::
Jul 22, 2009 - 1:42AM
#129
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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Although I can appreciate everyones passion for a beloved setting, I must point out this quote, which basically sums it up.
You do realise it takes 5 seconds to house rule don't you?
If you don't like something, change it. It is after all, your game.
Long Live Dragonlance and the Nexus! I still want an athasian nightmare beast and a warforged dragon mini! "Look, Meat, I'll tear your face off, rip your throat out and eat what's left-because that's what I do to food like you." ~Thrikreen Intimidation Tactic. My Custom 4th edition Content (New Content:2)
Show
* My Personal 4e Darksun Material found below:
Updated Weapon Options. (critical impact, repair, salvage)
http://www.4shared.com/document/bMZK2PNy/Updated_Optional_Darksun_Weapo.html
4th edition Athasian Sloth v1.2 (includes three monster write ups and a new disease)
http://www.4shared.com/document/lj561SRh/4th_edition_Athasian_Sloth_v10.html
4th edition Athasian Flailer v1.0
http://www.4shared.com/document/JGi9PqSe/4th_edition__Athasian_Flailer_.html
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4 years ago ::
Jul 22, 2009 - 1:58AM
#130
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Although I can appreciate everyones passion for a beloved setting, I must point out this quote, which basically sums it up.
If you don't like something, change it. It is after all, your game.
What if by the time you're done houseruling it, you realize theirs little reason to change? Eberron, the last nail in the coffin for me.
I could take the digital D&D, I could adjust the game to make it more difficult, but messing with perhaps the most creative setting I've ever played was the final straw. It's been reduced from a setting with many subtleties to what is essentially a giant dungeon.
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