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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 3:14AM
#21
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Date Joined:
Jun 26, 2002
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Warforged as presented in ECS were well above the power level of all other standard PC races. I have no problem with them being nerfed down to match the other races.
I did not have the oppurtunity to GM warforged characters until a month ago when I started a new Eberron campaign. Their power was driven home in my eyes when they bascially two manned an enhanced mummy after laughing off the poison traps by just running into them to trigger it so the "fleshies" didn't die. Oh, and they're immune to the sickened condition on top of that. Awesome. If I play 3.X again, the warforged would be a +1 level adjusted race.
It's not surprising the were nerfed, and frankly, it's well deserved.
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 5:30AM
#22
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I did not have the oppurtunity to GM warforged characters until a month ago when I started a new Eberron campaign. Their power was driven home in my eyes when they bascially two manned an enhanced mummy after laughing off the poison traps by just running into them to trigger it so the "fleshies" didn't die. Oh, and they're immune to the sickened condition on top of that. Awesome. If I play 3.X again, the warforged would be a +1 level adjusted race.
Wait, so you basically did one encounter which heavily featured the exact things they were immune to, and you were surprised that the WF walked all over it? Have you tried playtesting elves by running them through an adventure filled with sleep spells yet?
I understand 4E is powered down from what 3.X was
Powered down? Oh uh uh, as a whole everybody has been powered up. The Eladerin have teleport as a racial ability for crying out loud.
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 5:35AM
#23
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Date Joined:
Apr 23, 2005
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Iknow this is slightly off topic (put still somehow connected) I've just looked at the 4th Ed MM list on these forums and saw Shifters and Warforged but no Changelings, when will we know about them or do we have to wait till next year? Keith can you help with this?
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 5:56AM
#24
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Iknow this is slightly off topic (put still somehow connected) I've just looked at the 4th Ed MM list on these forums and saw Shifters and Warforged but no Changelings, when will we know about them or do we have to wait till next year? Keith can you help with this?
Changelings = Doppelgangers
Seems like warforged are pretty simple, and while they've been powered down in some ways (no immunities any more), in others they are better (auto-stabilise is much more powerful now that it's so difficult to die by damage alone). Their racial power (warforged resolve, grants temp HP) is pretty good, but I get the feeling a more thematic power could have been chosen. I'm not sure what, though.
My impression of the warforged is that they need racial feats. Without them, they just feel like bare bones that just resemble the race. With a bit more crunch behind them, I think they'll turn out fine.
The Dragon Above - Eberron news and new content for both 3E and 4E. Home of the Eberron Bestiary.
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 6:07AM
#25
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2008
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Warforged as presented in ECS were well above the power level of all other standard PC races. I have no problem with them being nerfed down to match the other races.
I did not have the oppurtunity to GM warforged characters until a month ago when I started a new Eberron campaign. Their power was driven home in my eyes when they bascially two manned an enhanced mummy after laughing off the poison traps by just running into them to trigger it so the "fleshies" didn't die. Oh, and they're immune to the sickened condition on top of that. Awesome. If I play 3.X again, the warforged would be a +1 level adjusted race.
It's not surprising the were nerfed, and frankly, it's well deserved.
They are not any more powerful than dwarves are, and I guess you overlooked the fact that they can only be healed for half of what everyone else gets, and they are affected by many spells that also affect constructs.
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 6:10AM
#26
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2008
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?Powered down? Oh uh uh, as a whole everybody has been powered up. The Eladerin have teleport as a racial ability for crying out loud.
It depends on what level they get it, and many spells that are normally early spells are not gotten until later. The rituals replacing common spells is also a powerdown. Healing surges seems to bring power up but I dont know exactly how that works yet.
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 6:49AM
#27
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Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2006
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I have (surprise) strong feelings about the warforged, but I'm going to wait until the books are officially out before I present my thoughts on the matter. I do encourage everyone to share their thoughts on this issue, now or later, because there's a key point here: these are not Eberron's warforged. These are warforged in the 4E Monster Manual. Warforged will certainly be dealt with in more detail in the 4E Eberron books, which means that if people are upset with the direction that's been taken with them, it's always possible they will be changed.
With that said, the lack of racial feats is critical... not to mention the possibility of racial paragon paths, component items, and on and on. The equivalent would be seeing the 3.5 warforged without knowing about the existence of Adamantine Body, the Warforged Juggernaut PrC, docents, or any of that. This is not to say that all issues will be resolved by any means - simply that it's certainly possible that things that we think of as core warforged features will instead be addressed by racial feats or other mechanics. The upcoming DDI article will surely address some of these - and the 4E Eberron books may do more.
But I'd certainly like to hear what people have to say on this issue, and I'm sure that other designers will be listening.
This is about all I needed to hear, thanks Keith.
I do see now why the Changeling was not included in the MM, as the Doppelganger now really looks like changeling from Eberron.
Browncoats Unite...
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 7:05AM
#28
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For me the critical issue with the new version of warforged will be this:
there must be aspects of warforged that warrant their creation by House Cannith for the Last War. If they're so nerfed that they're no better, or even worse, than other humaniods, then there's no point in their existence.
Especially keep in mind the concept of minions. With only 1 hp, what makes them better soldiers than a 1 hp human conscript minion, who can wield standard martial weapons at no penalty in 4ed? That's the critical question. If it doesn't have a sufficient answer via the standard 4ed version of warforged, it needs to be addressed for Eberron, because of their vital role in the setting. If they do have an advantage, then they're good to go with just some tweaking for a distinct Eberron feel. Time will tell.
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 7:27AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Aug 21, 2009
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For me the critical issue with the new version of warforged will be this: there must be aspects of warforged that warrant their creation by House Cannith for the Last War. If they're so nerfed that they're no better, or even worse, than other humaniods, then there's no point in their existence.
Especially keep in mind the concept of minions.
The fact that they have warforged resilience already makes them better than minions, which is what I presume most peasant levies and conscripts would be. It nicely reflects the 3.5 idea that all warforged were created with PC class levels, putting them above NPC warriors.
From a non-game-mechanical perspective, one could argue that there's all sorts of advantages (financial and otherwise) to creating a being with no family/history/biological relation to you and sending it off to war.
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5 years ago ::
May 29, 2008 - 7:49AM
#30
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The fact that they have warforged resilience already makes them better than minions, which is what I presume most peasant levies and conscripts would be. It nicely reflects the 3.5 idea that all warforged were created with PC class levels, putting them above NPC warriors.
From a non-game-mechanical perspective, one could argue that there's all sorts of advantages (financial and otherwise) to creating a being with no family/history/biological relation to you and sending it off to war.
A minion is a minion, and soldiers are the minions of an army. All minions have only 1 hp, no matter what kind of creature they are. They get hit, they die. The trick is hitting them with something that does damage. It's now a lot easier to damage a warforged, so no more warforged units calmly walking through cloud kill while the fleshies keel over dead, or crossing that deep stream simply by walking on the bottom.
While some may argue that not having someone at home to fight for might give them less to fight for, the greatest advantage (which may offset any other limitation!) is that of time. It takes almost twenty years to "grow" a human soldier, after all!
Edit: another issue then is the difference between warforged and undead units. Now undead units are significantly better than warforged, when before it was almost a toss-up.
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