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6 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2007 - 6:38AM
#11
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Date Joined:
Jun 14, 2004
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... then if you add in four pages of airship layouts you've got to drop four pages of existing material... what would that be?
Optional spell components. Or at least they should rewrite them, because they are pretty useless right now. (I am not sure whether they are 4 pages, though)
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6 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2007 - 9:10AM
#12
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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Optional spell components. Or at least they should rewrite them, because they are pretty useless right now. (I am not sure whether they are 4 pages, though)
Good call. They are, in fact, only one page. But I agree - I think that's a page that could be better spent.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2007 - 11:54AM
#13
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Date Joined:
Jan 25, 2004
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The special materials could also use a revisit or outright removal. It never adequately explains how soarwood becomes lighter than air for airships, but only reduces weight to 3/4 normal. Byeshk and targath, while intresting, don't really add anything to the world IMO.
The monsters included could stand to be more carefully chosen. Daelkyr and ascendant councilors, while important in to the world are unlikely to be encountered by PCs, and can probably be reduced to fluff.
I want more racial diversity. Not much information is given as to how the various nations integrate other races into their society beyond the DMH.
A Talenta that makes more sense. Talenta has militarily powerful and expansionist nations on several borders, no geographic barriers to entry, and still has a unique ecology and independence without central authority? If it seemed newly independent it wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't feel like it was ever a part of Karrnath or Cyre. It's about as plausible as dinosaurs eating grass... oh, wait...
Karrnath was already named Karrnath after Karrn the Conquerer when it was renamed after Galifar's son Karrn? That seems a little contrived.
A passing mention of how bright/big the moons are would be nice, is Eberron always in full moonlight? Did there use to be a thirteenth month, but no one knows what happened to it?
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6 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2007 - 3:16PM
#14
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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While I understand most of your complaints...
A Talenta that makes more sense. Talenta has militarily powerful and expansionist nations on several borders, no geographic barriers to entry, and still has a unique ecology and independence without central authority? If it seemed newly independent it wouldn't be so bad, but it doesn't feel like it was ever a part of Karrnath or Cyre.
You've lost me on multiple points.
To begin: "Talenta has militarily powerful and expansionist nations on several borders." I assume that you're talking about Valenar and Karrnath. Now, according to Forge of War (page 26), as of 940 YK the Plains were still claimed by Karrnath. They weren't an independent nation; on the contrary, they weren't even considered to be a nation. It was a part of Karrnath that happened to have some wild halflings running around. And in fact, according to the ECS, prior to the Last War the halflings of the Plains had to pay tribute to the king of Galifar.
Beyond that, it's already been noted multiple times that the population density of Khorvaire is low - that this is where "points of light" comes into Eberron. Karrnath may have had the POWER to conquer the Talenta Plains and force the halflings to speak Karrnathi... but how much effort would it have been, and what would they have gained by doing it? It was already Karrnath on the map. The halflings were paying their king. Why devote a massive amount of military resources to conquering, unifying, and administering savage people who posed no threat?
If you're counting Valenar in the picture, it's even worse. The population of the Talenta Plains is five times that of Valenar... and Valenar itself is already far too much territory for the elves to control. The Valenar are aggressive, but they want a military challenge. What would the elves gain by conquering halflings? Given that there's no strong system of central authority in place, it would be a nightmare to administrate, and the Valenar don't want to be governors - they want to fight. Looking again to Forge of War, page 81 addresses the fact that they "don't even really want the territory they claimed under the Treaty of Thronehold. They simply required a base from which to operate on Khorvaire, and a central location that would convince others to attack them." Hellcow has echoed this, noting that the Valenar dream would be for Karrnath to attack them in Valenar... and that their raiding is both to keep their troops fit and an effort to provoke a response.
The Talenta Plains are newly independent. Their customs haven't changed because Galifar never enforced its CUSTOMS on the people of the plains. Like Droaam in Breland, the Talenta Plains were a backwater claimed by one of the Five Nations but never actively colonized by humans.
It's about as plausible as dinosaurs eating grass... oh, wait...
So... highly plausible?
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6 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2007 - 5:02PM
#15
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Date Joined:
Jan 25, 2004
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My comment about grass perhaps requires some explanation. Grass requires specific adaptations to digest. Grass did not exist when dinosaurs existed. Ergo, dinosaurs do not have the adaptations to eat grass. It is a silly and peevish complaint, has no bearing on the world of Eberron, but is something that nonetheless bothers me.
What lacks believability for me regarding Talenta is three-fold.
First of all, even if there was no wholesale acculturation of Talenta, it is not feasible that there would be absolutely no expansion into the Talenta Plains on the part of Karrnath and Cyre during its thousands of years of occupation. Either the halflings resisted human incursion more ferociously than is currently portrayed or a few scattered roads and abandoned settlements should be added to provide the sense that humans once existed there.
The current Talenta/Karrnathi border seems arbitrary. From the map it looks like a line through the middle of supposably arable land with no distinguishing features. Did they just plop down a big fence with occasional "No Trespassing" signs?
Thirdly why do dinosaurs exist solely on the Talenta Plains and not spread to surrounding areas with similar environs? It runs counter to how ecologies behave. There should at least also be dinosaurs in Karrnath.
Talenta easily has the potential for an old west feel. Human ranchers having difficulty with the native Injuns (err, halflings). Ghost towns could litter the Plains casualties of the Last War or halfling raids. I'd like to see this avenue explored.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 12, 2007 - 6:29PM
#16
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Date Joined:
Oct 11, 2007
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Fair enough - good points. My point is that it's all a question of how densely you populate Karrnath as it gets close to the border. Just by the maps in the ECS, the closest Karrnathi settlement to the border of the Plains is still almost 100 miles away from that actual border. Looking at the map of the ECS, I'd assume that the vast bulk of the population of Karrnath lives west of Vulyar. Again, when you consider the low population numbers, it's reasonable to assume that the people of Galifar would huddle relatively close together - putting the major populations around Thronehold. Same principle as Droaam once being part of Breland on the maps, but Breland never actually having settlers in Droaam or the Marches... because they never needed to go that far to find open land. I'd assume that Vulyar was the de facto eastern border... with Karrnath claiming the eastern lands out of imperial pique. Meanwhile, the Talenta Plains are hardly inviting territory. "The Talenta Plains are vast and wild... the wilderness can be dangerous, with predatory dinosaurs, Valenar elf marauders, and other threats ranging from the mundane to the supernatural." If we haven't even fully settled eastern present-day Karrnath, why press into barbaric dinosaur country? With that said, I've got no problem with the idea of their being some ghost towns from people who tried; all I'm saying is that it doesn't surprise me that the land isn't littered with them. Western Breland, eastern Karrnath, the Eldeen Reaches (which used to be "Aundair") - there's a lot of open frontier land just in the modern borders, let alone the old. Thirdly why do dinosaurs exist solely on the Talenta Plains and not spread to surrounding areas with similar environs?
They don't exist solely in the Plains. Check under the heading "Dinosaurs" in the ECS:
Dinosaurs are widespread on Eberron, particularly in Xen'drik, Argonnessen, Q'barra, and the Talenta Plains.[/quote]
They are especially common in Q'barra and the Plains - in part, I would imagine, because the two have similar environments - but I'd assume that you can also find dinosaurs everywhere from southern Karrnath to Breland. "Particularly" doesn't mean "only"; it simply means that they have thrived there.
This divergence could also be explained by the presence of the Dhakaani empire in the heartland of Khorvaire. Presumably the Dhakaani - who at their height may have achieved a greater population density than humanity has - would have eliminated creatures they considered a threat. I'm 90% sure I've read somewhere that the lizardfolk were originally spread further west until the Dhakaani drove them east and into Q'barra. So it may be that there used to be as many dinosaurs in Breland as in the plains - but that they were exterminated by the goblins who lived in that land.
In any case, they aren't solely confined to the plains.
It runs counter to how ecologies behave.
I like logic with my fantasy, but I think if you try to push it too hard, things are simply going to break down. The very concept that you could have a world with as many intelligent creatures as the MMs present is mind boggling. The impact of some of the magical abilities of some creatures would be huge. On top of that, you have the fact that this is a world with magic, manipulative dragons and demons, manifest zones and planar convergences, and many other forces that we simply don't see at work in our world. So I certainly see your point, and I don't disagree with it - but unless it's so illogical as to completely break a story, it doesn't worry me too much.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 13, 2007 - 7:36AM
#17
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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I think that Haulbrands' point is that when you're asking for new racial features, more information about other countries, airship layouts, and so on, you need to look at the existing ECS and figure out what they'd take out in order to make room for the new things you want to see. Because the new ECS isn't just an update for people who have been around from day one; it needs to serve as the core foundation book for someone who's never played the setting before and who doesn't own any other book. If it's as large as WotC books get already (which I believe is the case), then if you add in four pages of airship layouts you've got to drop four pages of existing material... what would that be?
things to remove and/or simplify
- Region of Origin in the Character Races Section, this can been simplified and move to the Geography section...
- Since Action Points are going Core and are changing thats one page you can lose...
- Outsiders in Eberron, in the Magic Chapter. This information is Neat and Cool but is present in Monster Manuals Currently and So i would hope in 4E they keep it in the MM and out of the ECS and thats almost 4 pages...
- those are just things on top of my head... with out any understanding of how Magic Items, Magic spells and Feats are changing i can't say if those sections are going to be shorter or longer...
Another Option is the PHB2, we don't yet know how the Players Handbooks that come out each year will relate to the Campaigns coming out each year... where the PHBs will have the Races and Classes for each setting or wither they will have nothing relating to the setting... if they do thats a good size of the book that can be taken out from Domains, Warforged, Shifters, Changlings, Artificers... and if the DMG2 will be released as well, they could put in some of the Special Materials and some Magic Items in them that don't relate too Specifically to an aspect of Eberron (like magic items that enhance dragonmarks) Some parts of the Eberron Campaign book that we have now are important... and others are not so... they will have to figure out what is what... and i trust them...
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6 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2007 - 7:37AM
#18
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Date Joined:
Oct 10, 2007
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Yeah, I don't think daelkyr stuff really needs to be in the 4EECS given they're not even meant to be around any more. Which means delaying symbionts and similar stuff to a later book.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2007 - 10:01AM
#19
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Date Joined:
Oct 17, 2007
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What I want is more underwater adventure.
I Would Also like to se rules to change the base components of a warforged, like making a warforged with coral plating, or making the base structure out of stabilized Quicksilver, another cool thing.
A Dominion or religion is needed that gives the powers to heal warforged.
Psionics and Incarnum need more clases.
And also The book of nine swords needs to clear some things there is to much likeness between the clases, there are to few, and It would be great if WotC put some atention to the Monk Class and finally gave it more options (we have thousands of martial arts in real life,) really the monk needs some signature power of its own.
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6 years ago ::
Oct 17, 2007 - 1:08PM
#20
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Date Joined:
Jan 25, 2004
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Quileth, you want all that in the Eberron Campaign Setting book?  On a side note, there is the crazy rumor running around in Forgotten Realms that there will in fact be three books to the FR campaign setting. The specifics are a mystery to me, but supposedly it will have a separate DM's guide to the Realms with all the juicy secrets. How cool would that be for Eberron?
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