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Kyraeus wrote:

Wow, really Wolf?

No offense, but that's extremely hopeful and/or naive of you.

Really and truly.

I look at DDI as an entire service package. While I'm highly disappointed in the lack of a complete suite of tools - culminating in a Game Table that will let me play with my scattered friends - I still see work on the package being done. Slowly - far slower than I'd like in fact, but progress is progress. Even if it isn't on the one piece I want most.

Shelved software products have this alarming tendency never to be finished. I certainly can't remember the last decent offering that got shelved, then picked back up that ended up well. At the very least it would mean any work that WAS done on it would need to be redone from scratch. Who are they going to get to pick that up?

Moreover, see the other people's point of view. Hasbro/WoTC spent the better part of a year or more now marketing a product to us that, frankly, didn't exist, and if you're saying it's shelved indefinitely, that means for the forseeable future probably WON'T exist. Yes, it sucks. Yes, people are unhappy about it. They've got every right to be. I'm sorry if you don't like whining on your boards, but that's kinda going to happen.

I'll give you "forseeable future" - though it's worth clarifying that I don't "forsee" most things beyond a six-month window. To use conventions as an example, DDXP isn't in the forseeable future - it hasn't even been announced for 2010 yet. But I fully expect it to happen next year, and I still expect to attend.

As for "whining" - I fully encourage people to state what they want. I just reserve the right to reply as I see fit (or not) just as you have that same right. After all, that's what a discussion forum is for - discussion. That includes the exchange of sometimes conflicting opinions and ideas.

Hasbro has changed a number of things about the franchise, not the least of which was slamming the price of the books through the roof immediately because they knew they had a hardcore fanbase who was willing to pay to get their 'fix'. Dropping these tools that had already gone out through their marketing department as an incentive to purchase a subscription to Insider just shows more of the same. Once with this problem when the original character builder was semi-released with the books was bad enough. Now this second shortfall is just ridiculous.

I'm confused. You seem to be saying that Hasbro/WotC jacked the price of the books to simply get more money. However, they then dropped the price of their online subscription model. If they were just going to be money grubbing wouldn't they have simply released half-finished tools, charged full price, and told the "hard core fix" crowd to live with it?

Don't get me wrong, the project is mis-managed, but I think there's a clear line between human error (and even plain incompetence) and nefarious corporate greed.

Perhaps I'm just misunderstanding your point, however.

While I see your point, and trying to maintain hope, I honestly have to say it looks extremely bad, and I think pumping money into D&D in it's current state is a big mistake. I won't go dramatic about it, but it is a damn shame to go through picking up this new service with overdone promises of new tools, better experiences, and GENERAL COMPETENCE OF THE COMPANY TO FULFILL CUSTOMER EXPECTATIONS, only to be let down, and told that 'well. our 3rd party software developer may have dropped the ball'. or, excuse me, not told that, because I highly doubt anything I've heard on here was from a rep. Oh wait, they haven't said anything except that it's delayed. Indefinitely.

It IS a damn shame that they over-committed.

But. . . WotC can't go back in time and take those original projections, estimations and over-commitments and take them away.

They CAN tell us what the current plan is (To work on one project at a time, and to not schedule inactive projects until the active piece is done).

That's a subtle difference from something being delayed "indefinately". I'll agree it isn't as easy as "we'll pick up "X" in six months" - but indefinite has a negative connotation associated with it.

It's delayed until the the current project is done. It's less about shelving the project and letting it gather dust, and more about where the current focus is.

Don't think of the Game Table as being boxed up and put into cold storage (at least, I don't) - think of it more as being right on the workbench next to the Campaign Tools, awaiting its turn.

I dunno. maybe that's just me, but that sounds like EXTREMELY poor planning on the part of the officials overseeing the D&D project as a whole. Proper implementation would have had 2/3+ of this software suite done by now. Before people start saying I don't know what I'm talking about, I work in distribution sales for software and hardware implementation, speaking daily with guys who do exactly this. I've seen rollouts of software platforms intended to allow remote management of systems in the 10,000+ qty pushed faster than this.

Frankly, it's a damned shame. I think a good gaming table made by the franchise itself would have pulled people back in droves to the game, besides my own happiness. Not to mention I'd hoped being connected to a large company known for gaming products would have done some good. Ah, well. Live and learn.

I agree. It IS a damn shame. I have high hopes (as an active RPGA gamer) that having a VTT tied directly to the D&D brand will help consolidate online RPGA games. Right now these people play on "this" VTT, those people play on "that" VTT.

While I don't think it will be as easy as 100% of the people using VTTs will switch to the Game Table - I have high hopes that a quality VTT will pickup 75% or more of the market, and offer up a consolidated place to find RPGA games.

Perhaps I'm just not seeing it, but does anyone know what the current tool is that they ARE working on? Not just updating the character builder, that's in maintenance mode.

They are currently working on a Campaign Manager.

There is a Directed Discussion thread here where people are discussing what they would like to see in a Campaign Manager. The details that we have gotten so far from WotC are fairly vague, so now is your best chance to have some influence on what they add.

I don't post often, but for once...and maybe my drop in the giant bucket will be noticed...who knows?

I want to state for the record that I truly respect and appreciate the moderators and volunteers on the forums. They have a job that's incredibly hard, and they do it with a passion for gaming, and professionalism that I feel is rarely rivaled.

Now. I want to say that I don't feel that I'm one of the primary gamers that WOTC/Hasbro aims their products at. I'm in my forties with kids. I game a lot less than I used to. Unfortunately I feel after talking to other gamers that Wizards may have missed an opportunity here. Older gamers with families.

I have seen tons of older gamers quit after kids and more responsibility came along. Because they have to stay at home, they can't game unless it's on their PC. They can't spend hours away from their families.

I saw/see the DDi tabletop as a godsend for that area. When I saw the interviews and demos, I was amazed. I would finally be able to play D&D with real gamers online. I talked with more people who said that if it really happened, they loved the idea of returning to playing D&D. There's so much more it could offer them than MMO's.

Now I hear that it has been delayed for a Campaign Manager. It kills me. For me,the main draw of 4E was the online aspect. I like it, but I want to play it. (Yes I know about the online options, but they are nowhere near the same, when all factors are taken into account.)

I have friends who own almost every 2e-3.5e book out. These same friends are now playing MMO's only because they can't play D&D on the online tabletop. These people have good jobs. We have the cash to buy the new books...if we have somewhere to use them. All the money going to other companies would be paid to WOTC. Every day delayed is money lost from my point of view. (example...I have a friend who dropped over two hundred bucks on video games the other day, all the while angrily complaining about how much he misses playing D&D!)

Anyway, that's my rant. I understand business concerns, but 4E was touted as being designed with the virtual tabletop in mind. I looked forward to playing Living RPGA games on the tabletop. For now, 4E looks petty bleak to me. (Not putting the system down, but the inability to enjoy it.) For now, my buying will go on hold, at least until I can use what I buy.