I had a whole response written out, and when I clicked to post it, I got the message that the board was down for maintenance! Argh! Anyway, I'll do my best to get back what I said.
It's tough to say what to do with Cantrips. Obviously there are people on both sides of the fence. One side would throw out the Spellbook, the other would throw out Cantrips. Neither is wrong, just that both sides have different visions of their characters.
An idea I came up with was a Hybrid class feature version of Cantrips to go along with the Hybrid class feature Spellbook. In the Hybrid version, all Cantrips become encounter powers in combat. They would remain at-will outside of combat. (I toyed with the idea of making Cantrips subject to an Arcane skill check within combat to see if they work as normal, but I don't know if people really want an additional roll added to their turns.) If that's still too powerful, could it work if each Cantrip was a daily, rather than an at-will? (I really think this is unnecessary though.)
I'm truly not looking to break the system by creating a full wizard with extra features. I fully agree that the wizard class should have enough of itself kept out of the Hybrid rules to continue to be worthwhile to play. I simply see this from my own POV, and maybe if I explain it like I did in the other thread it will make more sense.
I am a Tome Implement wizard and I chose the Readiness build option. With that comes the ability to later take Improved Tome of Readiness, which allows you to choose one daily/utilty in your Spellbook that can be later substituted for a memorized daily/utility of equal or greater level. Obviously, without a Spellbook for a class feature, this ability is unavailable. You could argue that by giving Spellbook and AIM as Hybrid Talents the wizard could then make use of IToR as a Paragon (considering it's a Paragon feat anyway.) The problem with that is that you'd give Cantrips (full) as the class feature, Spellbook and AIM (both full) as Hybrid Talents, and the player could take Ritual Caster as a feat. So that would really be a wizard with extra features, all at the cost of some free rituals.
I thought about a Hybrid version of AIM, but I fear it would cause a riot. There's no way to really cut down the Orb and Staff features without completely destroying them. The only way to cut the power down across the feature is to make the encounter abilities into daily abilities instead, but like I said, that would almost certainly lead to riots. Though, what if the encounter abilities were dailies, but could be recharged when an action point is expended?
How would this sound? Hybrid wizards get Cantrips (full), along with my Hybrid Spellbook, both as class features. My Hybrid Arcane Implement Mastery ability would be the Hybrid Talent feature.
Hybrid Spellbook
You possess a spellbook, a book full of mystic lore in which you store your rituals and your daily and utility spells.
Rituals: Your book contains no rituals. You may, however, add rituals if you take the Ritual Caster feat. Any ritual you add must be your level or lower.
Daily and Utility Spells: Your spellbook also holds your daily and utility spells. You begin knowing two daily spells, one of which is considered a backup spell. At level 2 you receive two utility spells, one of which is considered a backup spell. Each time you gain a level that lets you select a daily spell or a utility spell, you may exchange the matching backup spell type for one of your new level or lower. You may have one backup spell of each type (utility and daily) in your spellbook.
After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level. You can't prepare the same spell twice.
If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or through retraining, the previous spell vanishes from your spellbook and is replaced by the new spell.
Capacity: A typical spellbook has 128 pages. Each spell takes up 1 page. A ritual takes up a number of pages equal to its level.
Hybrid Arcane Implement Mastery
This class feature functions as the wizard class feature (Player’s Handbook, page 157), except that you replace the word encounter with the word daily. When you use an Action Point, you may recharge this power as a free action.
That sort of gimps the Spellbook and AIM more than I'd really like, but I think it would be pretty hard to say that a Hybrid wizard with these features is at all comparable to a full wizard. I did add the line "You may have one backup spell of each type (utility and daily) in your spellbook" to the Spellbook class feature. I think with the gimping of AIM, this would be fair, while at least opening up some choice in the Spellbook ability/IToR.
Gadren, what do you think about my remark about the hybrid Paladin's divine challenge being weak? I think it would be balanced if applying the damage was a free action (like the regular mark) and the damage was reduced, but nerfing the damage and requiring an action cost as well is just too much.
Likewise with the Beast Mastery hybrid feature-I'm fine with the idea that a hybrid beast is a little bit less sturdy (-1 to defenses) but -1 to attack rolls is ridiculous. No other hybrid class feature includes a flat penalty to attack rolls, and especially not to a category of powers that are generally thought to be lacking (ie Ranger beast attack powers).
A feat called "hybrid defense" that grants the armor profs of the sturdier class would definitely be beneficial-I'm completely in agreement with Gadren on this one: using your hybrid feat to gain armor does seem a little bit underwhelming.
Likewise, something needs to be done to prevent hybrid warlocks from getting double the benefit from twofold pact (perhaps by keeping the at-will requirement from Eldritch Pact).
My first impression of the Spellbook is that it should be granted as a hybrid feature that only allows a wizard to choose between either two dailies or two utilities (with the player choosing one at character creation). This would limit the utility of the feature, but allow players to have that wizardy flavor.
I should get a chance to run a playtest relatively soon, so I'll get back to you guys then. What I was thinking was playing two different parties each of 4 characters. One would be composed strictly of Hybrid characters, and the other strictly of Multiclassed characters, both built to capture the same essential character.
Hybrid Party: Fighter l Wizard PHC (Going for the "Heavy Armor Gish" archetype) Barbarian l Shaman PHC (Going for the "Chosen of the spirits" archetype) Avenger l Invoker PHC (Going for the "Chosen Zealot Assassin") Bard l Rogue PHC (Going for a "dashing swordsman" type character)
Another suggestion is comparing hybrids with the same main attack stat and hybrids with different main attack stats.
I do not mean to be rude or condescending, but I'd like to point out that the end result of this is already evident in playing a single-class character who uses two different attack stats - say, the Paladin. What ends up happening, typically, is an overall reduction in accuracy and one or more defenses, but a slight increase in one or more defenses.
To provide a brief, if rough, example:
Paladin A STR 20 CON 10 DEX 10 INT 8 WIS 11 CHA 16
AC 20 FRT 16 REF 11 WIL 14
Paladin B STR 18 CON 10 DEX 12 INT 8 WIS 12 CHA 18
AC 20 FRT 15 REF 12 WIL 15
Again, rough examples. Also, I'd like to point out that, for the sake of argument, I went with an 8 in both builds to get the most out of defenses while still maintaining the focus on attack rolls. Yes, Paladin B will have more overall accuracy with a broader selection of powers, but Paladin A will simply hit more often with their smaller selection of powers, and will have the added benefit of being able to spread around their second ability score increase twice per tier, potentially resulting in better defenses and secondary effects.
While I've not really tried this with a Hybrid character, I have my doubts that this fundamental design would change much - and, in my not-nearly-humble-enough opinion, from a mechanical standpoint, accuracy is the best thing you can do for your character.
*awaits the flame*
Moving on, I'd like to address the discussion of Hybrid Wizard. My favorite character for 3 Editions now (I don't really count 1st Edition, since I learned on 2nd and discovered 1st later) has been a Wizard named Amon "Venger" Vengirion. Go figure. In 4th Edition, overall, I've not been largely impressed with the Wizard, but I built my Staff Wizard anyway and he makes a decent back-up Defender. With the release of Hybrid I've had time to re-evaluate my options, and I'd like to throw my hat in, so to speak.
First: Make Cantrips the class feature for the Hybrid Wizard.
I say this because, not only are Cantrips quite useful (I'd like to direct you all to the Penny Arcade/PvP podcasts; one Jim Darkmagic makes excellent use of his Cantrips), but they are also not a huge source of power for the Wizard. If you think about what power boosts you can get from AIM, or the raw flexibility that Spellbook gives, it becomes rather painfully obvious that Cantrip isn't the crux of the class - but it's still iconic.
The very flavor of Cantrip is that it is the basics; Cantrips are what all young Wizards must learn in order to master the Art. Cantrips are used to teach students how the flow of magic works, and how to harness that in a way that's largely harmless before they ever get to lob of gout of flame or are entrusted with a book of rituals. Even if you never completed your training, be it because the money ran out, or your master was killed, or war took you from the library to the battlefield, these basic lessons are what you gained that cannot be taken away from you, and are the thread that ties us together and sets us upart from the throng.
*wipes tear, clears throat*
Second: Offer both Spellbook and AIM as Hybrid Talent features - as they were originally printed.
As much as I espoused the usefullness of Spellbook and AIM against Cantrip, when compared to features from other classes they seem on par (even a little weak, compared to some... *eyes the Fighter*). Assuming you only get to select one of these two features (or both, if your willing to give up a paragon path, which is a VERY costly endeavor for most classes, I assure you), you can still have a robust Hybrid Wizard without stepping on the toes of the Wizard. Any single-class Wizard giving up one of these two features for an extra d6 of damage or +1 to attack rolls either needs their head examined, or is me.
Third: Ritual Caster? Really?
This feat essentially has no prerequisites (Trained in Arcana or Religion? If you're not, you aren't going to have too much use for the feat, anyway). If anything shouldn't be selectable as a Hybrid Talent option or given away for free, it's this. Admittedly, it's useful - in many ways more useful than Cantrip - but it is so accessible that it hardly bears consideration.
Just think of it as another feat tax to pay if you want your Hybrid Wizard to become a full Wizard. Which, by the way, I am perfectly fine with; if you want to be a full-Wizard and have access to a Hybrid class, you should have to pay for it.
Hard.
EDIT: I suppose I should include something a little more on-topic. As I'm sure everyone is aware, the Fighter/Ranger, especially Tempest Fighter/2-blade Ranger (so to speak), is utterly amazing. Some would argue better than the Fighter alone. Some may even go so far as to say better than the 2-blade Ranger alone. I will neither agree with or disagree with any of that. I will, however, share my experience with this particular Hybrid build.
In a game I run with just my wife and the occasional "guest star," she plays a Warforged Battlerager Vigor Fighter (for the record, she does not read these forums, nor is she in the slightest a power-gamer; her character concept is very deep and involved, and it happened that Martial Power had just come out, adding a feature to the Fighter that fit much better than her previous idea). Her companion, which she essentially rescued in the 3rd adventure, is a Half-Orc Hybrid Tempest Fighter/Ranger with Spiked Chain Training (an NPC of my own devising that actually served as a subordinate to a primary villain at the end of the 3rd adventure). The character behaves like a striker that can mark... and dispatch minions fairly quickly.
This led me to the idea of trying to Hybrid other classes that performed a strong primary role with significant bleed into a secondary role, but on the condition that the two primary roles be different. Turns out, there are incredibly few Hybrid combinations that do such a thing and use even similar ability scores.
As a quick aside, in case I haven't mentioned this here (I'm getting senile and lazy, apparently), I value the attack roll over basically every other mechanical aspect of my character to some degree. As such, having at least some ability score synergy with Hybrids is important to me.
My point here is - perhaps this is the key, the all-balancing factor, that can take the arbitrary feeling out of where to balance some of the hybrids. Maybe, just maybe, having role-bleed made easier than simply acquiring more of each of your classes features will put more Hybrids on even footing, making the rest of the balancing easier because it gives you a starting point. The focus of Hybrid, from a more mechanical aspect, can be not as much the marrying of two classes features, but instead two primary roles, with the added benefit of getting to splash in one or more secondary roles.
How to do it? I don't know. Maybe some feat or feature that changes what ability scores you primarily use based on which classes you chose? I don't know. I'm just a crazy guy up a 4 a.m. being crazy.
Well a hybrid classed character isn't a wizard, despite having wizard as half of his class makeup. The point of hybrid classes is to be something beyond the normal classes allowing new pseudoclasses that fit a character concept.
If you want to BE a wizard, then take wizard as your class. There's nothing saying you can't have a spellbook as a hybrid wizard, you just don't get extra daily and utility spells by having one. Cantrips are key to a wizard concept which is why they're there. The concept is that a wizard first learns to cast magic by learning cantrips. Therefore even a hybrid wizard would know them since they at least mastered the basics of the wizard class.
I added the spellbook problem and the paladin mark problem to Weaknesses. Anything else? I think we've fully explored the spellbook issue, perhaps there are other hybrid issues to discuss?
I'd also like you to add the problem of the Beast Companion nerf-no other hybrid feature says effectively "you take a -1 to all your attack rolls with 1/2 your powers". Change the hybrid beast mastery feature to "You gain a Beast companion. This companion is identical to the Ranger's beast companion except it's defenses are 1 lower than normal."
This prevents it from being an auto-pick for hybrid rogues (although it's still quite good) and keeps it so that a hybrid ranger's beastmastery powers aren't nerfed to hell. A -1 penalty to attack rolls is a very big deal. I'll do some playtesting though, to verify this.
Likewise, the problem with Twofold Pact and hybrid warlocks is something to consider. While it is a cheesy loophole that will likely only be taken advantage of by munchkins it is a loophole that needs to be closed.
Likewise, the problem with Twofold Pact and hybrid warlocks is something to consider. While it is a cheesy loophole that will likely only be taken advantage of by munchkins it is a loophole that needs to be closed.
Anyone that says anything is an autopick is a moron. People don't pick just on numbers. Well, only morons and idiots do. D&D is about roleplaying, not numbers. Once you get over your pathetic fetish with numbers, you'll have much more fun with the game.
Be a hybrid warlock, choosing (lets say) the infernal pact. You're not restricted to selecting Hellish Rebuke as your at-will, so you can pick a different at-will instead-lets say you want Eldritch Strike (from the players handbook mini cards). Now when you reach paragon you take the twofold pact feat from Dragon, which specifies that you get the benefits of two pacts, including the Pact at-wills. Which means that by the Rules as written you'd get the Infernal Pact Boon (which you already have), Hellish Rebuke (which you didn't have), and another at-will and pact boon . This is more benefit than a single-class warlock gets from that feat, and it's obviously not the intention of said feat.
And Feyberry, I'm no more a numbers junkie than you are (my "player type" is very much actor). But what I was referring to when I said "auto-pick" is something that is far superior to all other similar options. Ensuring that similar options (for example, hybrid strikers) are balanced enhances roleplay, because players both new and experienced don't need to worry that they'll make their character pitifully weak just because they make mechanical choices that emphasize their character's personality and backstory.
And Feyberry, I'm no more a numbers junkie than you are (my "player type" is very much actor). But what I was referring to when I said "auto-pick" is something that is far superior to all other similar options. Ensuring that similar options (for example, hybrid strikers) are balanced enhances roleplay, because players both new and experienced don't need to worry that they'll make their character pitifully weak just because they make mechanical choices that emphasize their character's personality and backstory.
That's exactly it. A good balancing of the numbers helps roleplay, rather than hindering it. It doesn't do a player very much good to have a great character in terms of "feel" who can't survive a kobold ambush.
D&D is all about numbers, and always has been. That doesn't mean its core isn't roleplaying, or that you can't roleplay with weak numbers. It just means that weak numbers make it a lot more work, and considering this is a game, it shouldn't be "work" to find enjoyment in it. ------------------
Anyway, thanks to Gadren for putting in the mention of the Spellbook issue. Unfortunately, I haven't really spent any time with any other classes, so I can't really give any constructive feedback on the rest. I'll show the Hybrid rules to my group tomorrow night though, and see if they see any particular glaring weaknesses, but there won't be any playtesting possible.
