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I ran a playtest of a Fighter l Wizard who used heavy armor and a shield with arcane implement prof. (longsword) to cast his spells. Sort of your average "battle-mage" deal. He wasn't nearly as sticky as your typical fighter, considering that I used my heroic tier hybrid talent option to get scale armor (I know it's far from optimal, but it looks cool). Despite this problem, I did find that I was a nice mix of Fighter and Wizard, and didn't worry nearly so much about being reduced to 0 hp (now that HP has been fixed). The one remaining problem that I really see is that there are circumstances in the encounter (with a dragon and it's kobold followers) that I wanted to be able to mark the dragon (to keep it on me, so the rogue could have some breathing room) but I couldn't because it had taken to the air. Being in heavy armor also made the occasional charge sort of necessary (to cover large amounts of distance) and so it would be nice to be able to apply the mark to charge attacks. All in all though, I did feel like a warrior-mage even if I was noticeably less sticky than a true fighter.

My suggestions:

Simply have a standard rule that says "if two features in the following list: Mark, Sneak attack etc.would apply to single attack, only apply one of them." This would solve all problems with marking and what not, and would prevent balance issues. Another option is a "one feature of that type per round" rule.

Shimeran wrote:

As for your suggestion, do you think "You can not apply class features from both your hybrid classes to the same attack" would do the job? If looks like it would do what you're going for easily enough.

Just a suggestion, but I think it should also have a clause of, "nor can you apply class features of one class to basic attacks granted by your class features or your powers of your other class."

If you don't do something like this then you could end up with something along the lines of a fighter using sneak attack whenever an enemy tries to get out of flanking between him and another character.

The game is complicated enough, guys. If we want more and more rules and sub-rules, where is the fun? Balance is good, but not if you have to have a Ph'd in 4th ed Dnd to achieve it. Simple rules are good. Less rules are even better.

A few episodes we spent 1/2 hour to an hour on a single ruling...not fun for the players who aren't involved...except for the rules lawyers.

Q) Why is Hunter's Quarry built-in to the core idea of "Ranger", but Lay On Hands isn't core to the Paladin? Who the heck is gonna take Lay On Hands as their only Hybrid Talent? Personally I think LoH is way more core to Dnd Paladins than Divine Challenge (or should be). That said, LoH is far less useful than previous editions and I often find myself running out of surges before other party members anyway, making it essentially useless except in very rare situations. Especially since every class can now surge themselves, healing is way less critical than it used to be. A defender shouldn't always be the first one to run out of surges, IMO, or have class features that rapidly deplete them. It's another case of "the better I am at LoH, the worse I am as a Defender" == conflicted class design. I can see why they took away LoH as a default power. Healing potions and items are way better. Let the rogues and wizards heal themselves. E.g. we gave our belt of sacrifice to our warlock because in the entire time in this party, never was even close to being out of surges, despite often getting hit due to OAs

The other half of feats like Weapon Expertise that everyone takes because it's so good, are feats that NO one takes because they're so bad, or there are much, much more important (exclusive) options to take. The Paladin's mark is so bad it should be free, and Lay On Hands too to make up for the loss of 8 feats for armor + shields. The only serious choice you have as a hybrid whatever + paladin is between Paladin Armor Proficiency and whatever the other half offers. That is your trade-off right there.

The other options for Paladin are complete, 100% bubkis and will never, ever be taken. (except for Tempus Paladins, obviously...another sign that Channel Divinity is broken) Thus, they should be removed and given for free, or reduced (e.g. Hybrid Lay On Hands : 1/day, like in previous editions). That is a much, much more palatable and workable option. I mean, multi-classing into cleric is probably a 1000% better option than taking Hybrid Talent : Lay On Hands...so please, Wotc, remove it and make it core (or give us a weaker version). It is core enough to the archetype but not that good that it warrants anyone seriously considering that vs all those armor feats.

Seriously, Paladins give up 4 "Talents" and can only get back one or *maybe* two, if they paragon hybrid. But in that case, paragon multiclass is probably way better. How does this compare to the much, much better designed Sorcerer? Let's see...The pieces of the puzzle baffle me, e.g. whoever would take a Divine Challenge feat (if there ever is one) or Channel Divinity Talent unless there was something truly exceptional to take it (Rrot). If it's that exceptional Rrot would make it better to stick with straight paladin, making those all those mutually exclusive hybrid talent options (=="traps") worthless. Paladin Armor is really the only one worth considering IMO, unless the other class has worthwhile class features. Making Paladins' core class features compete with each other is really bad form, and makes me wonder if even DP can save those features from oblivion (i.e. nobody ever using them, let alone sacrificing feats to have them).