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Thomson wrote:

And also "we think distributing x + INT bonus + human bonus skill points to two dozens of skills each level just to suck at almost everything except if you are a rogue or an INT monster is not fun"

I understand where you are coming from Thomson, one persons Picasso is another persons Easley (actually, that kinda sounds like a compliment to Picasso, in which case I didnt mean it.) and I am not, by any means, saying 3e was perfect...there were alot of rules, but its a pen and paper game, there are suppose to be rules.
Really All I had to say, right from the beginning is, I do not buy the reason they gave for the creation of 4e as being D&DI, when the tools aren't even ready almost a year after the game that was made to take advantage of said tools shipped (and I don't consider the character builder as anything new...anyone out there remember the e-tools for 3rd edition?).
So if anyone feels angry or upset with anything I have said, I truly apologize, much like you, I love D&D, and regardless of which edition you use, you are my kind of people.

K

i believe the thing most people don't see when they equalize D&D with WOW is that it is in no way similar to the Experience of an MMO. I don't play dnd to have fun gaining a massive amount of items, play with a massive amount of people and try to be an effective part of a massive group - i play dnd to be with some friends, and have fun.

dnd 4 is not like wow. it's like diablo II with some other players around, and a DM making the campaign world instead of playing all the same again.

also, dnd is not at all like any computer game (that i know of, and that's lots), since it actually allows players to change the world. (if their dm is fit enough to handle that and not railroading instead)
--
so why do people insist that it is like wow?
1)you have different build paths you can take. => diablo 2 had that already. many other computer games have that. heck, even other rpgs have that. so this is not at all wow-style.
2)you have to choose from a limited set of powers, but you can choose each level => actually, this is just a fairness issue that originated from the vancian casting system. wizards sorcerers and every spellcaster getting lots of stuff each level and fighters only if they multiclass was not balanced enough.
3) the mechanics feel so simplified and online-gamey
=> actually, wow is a lot more complex than dnd4e. and i believe that it's good that way. RP mechanics should be simple. roll d20, add modifier, know result. Abilities should be kept simple. That way, you can resolve combat quickly, and focus on other points. or you can focus combat quickly, and use the time gained for more combat! (it all depends on game style.

Serphet wrote:

now we know that it can require creative thought, and that the argument is deduct, but reboxxing it as D&D=WoW just is like saying the holy trinity is like water in three forms, it looks good and works at first until you analyze it further.

HA! Nice reference! I love Bill Maher.

_Radagast_ wrote:

HA! Nice reference! I love Bill Maher.

it will make sense to those who know eh?

I purchased the books and a subscription with the sole purpose of running a game with my friends who are now too far to meet face to face with.

Having tried several other virtual tabletop programs, I had given up hope of finding one which we all liked.

I am removing the auto-renew from my account and when my already paid for year is up... im done.

I should had just done monthly, but I had put my faith in WOTC.

A decent company says what it will do and do what it says.

I am very dissapointed with the company.

I am sure that WotC is very disappointed in WotC when it comes to DDI. Do you think they don't want the "promised" features? They had planned on selling a lot more subscriptions, and at a much higher price. They wanted to deliver some really exceptional tools to enhance and expand our playing experiences. But they have been trying to do this in an area in which they were not experienced. They underestimated development times and costs. Maybe they overestimated the abilities of some of the programmers and programming tools. Whatever, WotC was let down, too.

Few people (or companies) you never broken a promise, have never been late, or failed to do something correctly, or withheld information, even if it wasn't their fault. Doesn't mean we have to like it when it happens, but it has happened to virtually every company, government, and individual. Very few of us are absolutely perfect.

We are all only human (or elf, or dwarf, or ... sorry, I got carried away :embarrass )

DayhawkSilverstar wrote:

I purchased the books and a subscription with the sole purpose of running a game with my friends who are now too far to meet face to face with.

Having tried several other virtual tabletop programs, I had given up hope of finding one which we all liked.

I am removing the auto-renew from my account and when my already paid for year is up... im done.

I should had just done monthly, but I had put my faith in WOTC.

A decent company says what it will do and do what it says.

I am very dissapointed with the company.

by the time they were accepting payment, they had stated that the later parts of the tools wouldn't be done for a while. In fact the subscription we are paying is a reduced cost for in development tools.

Sorry you got the wrong impression.

thalmin wrote:

I am sure that WotC is very disappointed in WotC when it comes to DDI. Do you think they don't want the "promised" features? They had planned on selling a lot more subscriptions, and at a much higher price. They wanted to deliver some really exceptional tools to enhance and expand our playing experiences. But they have been trying to do this in an area in which they were not experienced. They underestimated development times and costs. Maybe they overestimated the abilities of some of the programmers and programming tools. Whatever, WotC was let down, too.

I think that it is a case of WotC not being a software development company, and thus not knowledgeable about the small things that happen in software development that, unless you are prepared for, add a great deal of time to development.

They aren't the first company to be late with a piece of software, they aren't the last company to be late.

There is a saying in the military: No plan ever survives contact with the enemy. The saying is applicable in this case. Note that I am not saying that the public is the enemy. In this case, the enemy is a combination of time, lack of company experience and various other factors.

There is a truism in most manufacturing industries:

mechaprawn wrote:

Really All I had to say, right from the beginning is, I do not buy the reason they gave for the creation of 4e as being D&DI

Well I don't buy this, too. And I haven't recognized that this is the official reason. What I understood was, that they have seen the flaws in 3e and wanted to make a better P&P game. And then they thought "this time we should get it and also make the transition into the digital age after we failed with 3e".

They partially succeeded with the first goal - for a lot of people 4e is better than 3e, while for a lot of other people it is worse.

I guess we agree that their transition to the digital age was delayed and plastered with a history of bad communication.

And while the character builder is a really great tool and really looks professional, it still has some issues (ok at least one serious issue: the power cards...)

mechaprawn wrote:

So if anyone feels angry or upset with anything I have said, I truly apologize, much like you, I love D&D, and regardless of which edition you use, you are my kind of people.K

Thx for making this clear. Same thing for me. And if we meet some day somewhere and you would want me as player in a game of D&D because you want to show me that really cool adventure you have made - well, if I have a little time, I would play your adventure, no matter what edition :D

P.S.: I could use some help in making a good AD&D char, though, since I only played basic, 3e, 3.5 and 4th. I just watched a game of 2nd edition and while I was fascinated, I had troubles understanding what exactly was going on

mudbunny wrote:

There is a truism in most manufacturing industries:

You can have it good, fast or cheap.
Pick two.

So by this logic they decided instead of good and fast and let the people who Frigging love our products cover the overages, to go with good and cheap and let the people who frigging love our products to become upset, suspicious, and down right angry at our company.

Regardless,

Mechaprawns ORIGINAL point still stands... Bill Slaviseks quote is quite possibly the most damning thing to DDi and the "2 seperate entities" argument I have seen.

mudbunny wrote:

There is a truism in most manufacturing industries:

You can have it good, fast or cheap.
Pick two.

except this is not possible in SW-development. good almost always depends on "expensive". It should be "pick one" in this special case.

to be precise:
you have quality, time and the number of features you can invest in.
all those depend on how much you're gonna invest.

WOTC wanted high quality, with lots and lots of features. they did not plan for a really big budget, else they'd hired like 200 programmers to get it done within the year. (i'm not going to look into the further problems this would pose in itself)

instead, they built a rather small team. with quality and amount of features in the front, clearly time became an issue, and in the long run, a problem. they reduced features(and also the amount of apps published synchronous), but still the quality they wanted could not be reached with the given budget.

now, they even reduced the budget more, by laying of some people working on the tools like elf. clearly, that was no good business decision, as it will invariably delay their products more, or force them to lower their quality or feature standard.


---

@kyros: no matter why they made the 4e, many people still would like it even if there was not a single line of it available in the internet. shareholder value and common wants often play into the same direction, there are and were many reasons for a new edition/change. and imo, there still are things to change in 4e, but it was a good step towards a more modern, user-friendly game.


dnd is like those complex boardgames you get - the ones from the 80ies had their special charm, but if you compare their rulesets and ease of play to modern games, they really are so far behind... same holds true for some parts of dnd. easier rules in a game that stays about as complex as it was, is always a win for me.

whitebaron wrote:

except this is not possible in SW-development. good almost always depends on "expensive". It should be "pick one" in this special case.

Ummm... Actually it does apply. WotC didn't originally pick two, they picked three and tried to make it work. That's why D&Di is where it is.

Now, they HAVE picked two. Good and cheap. Which means that fast is --- well, you guys know where that's at.

_Radagast_ wrote:

Now, they HAVE picked two. Good and cheap. Which means that fast is --- well, you guys know where that's at.

still, this does not work in SW-development.
cheap or to few developers mean
-additional development cycles
-longer (and increased) maintenance cycles
which carries you back to more costs, and further delays on the next tools, which means increased costs again.


you can't have good quality & cheap. it just does not work like that.

Cheap is perhaps the wrong word. "Not extremely expensive" or "Not money is no object" cost might be more accurate.

By cheap it doesn't mean minimum wage, it just means that you aren't throwning heaps of money at the project.

I think that WotC has picked good and cheap. The Character Builder is good, the compendium is great, and based onthe quick preview by WotC_DM, it looks like the upgrades that they have done to them are on the great side as well.

mudbunny wrote:

I think that WotC has picked good and cheap. The Character Builder is good, the compendium is great, and based onthe quick preview by WotC_DM, it looks like the upgrades that they have done to them are on the great side as well.

since they are reworking the compendium for the third time now, it can not possibly be called "cheap". for what it does, the compendium was probably extremely expensive in software development costs. i doubt, however, that wotc does a good job at calculating such costs based to projects. many companies fail to do so, and wonder about the value afterwards.

Unless you were expecting WotC to get things perfect the first time out, I am not sure how the patches they have done to the compendium can be called "reworking the compendium." People wanted improvements, WotC is providing them. It is a routine part of releasing software to the public that every software company does.

mudbunny wrote:

Unless you were expecting WotC to get things perfect the first time out, I am not sure how the patches they have done to the compendium can be called "reworking the compendium." People wanted improvements, WotC is providing them. It is a routine part of releasing software to the public that every software company does.

Agreed. The Compendium was awesome as it was. Refinements, such as the upgrades they are doing now, just make it even more user-friendly and amazing.

_Radagast_ wrote:

Agreed. The Compendium was awesome as it was. Refinements, such as the upgrades they are doing now, just make it even more user-friendly and amazing.

the compendium is awesome only due to the contents, not the technical implementation behind it. and that's the main problem: yes, you can live on content alone. but this is a bad way to go. filters were and still are wacky, and what else is there to it? nothing. basically, with access to the database, the current tool can be made within 2 or 3 weeks, and using freely available frameworks like smartGWT would up the usability by miles.

and, no, what they are doing is not upgrades and patches, as ordinary software companies do. it's fixing their loopholes. also they need to redevelop parts of it due to new monsters, feats, which is kinda strange and reeks of incompetence.

no, the current compendium only has one good thing for it: the data behind it. everything else is like done by a 2nd grader in highschool, and if any of my devs would come to me with such an application after that long of development time, i'd likely send him into lots of web development and usability training courses just so he gets up-to-date again.

I have to agree I've certainly used better fan created databases search engines than the Compendium. (No not for DnD.)

If they spent less time worrying about the graphic elements and more on the actual functionality it would work a lot better no doubt.

Pretty graphic elements =/= good product in this case.

whitebaron wrote:

the compendium is awesome only due to the contents, not the technical implementation behind it. and that's the main problem: yes, you can live on content alone. but this is a bad way to go. filters were and still are wacky, and what else is there to it? nothing.

Imagine that, a program designed to allow an easy-to-use interface with a database, only interfaces with the database. Whodathunkit!!

basically, with access to the database, the current tool can be made within 2 or 3 weeks, and using freely available frameworks like smartGWT would up the usability by miles.

I need to dig through my previous posts. I *know* that I predicted that someone would claim this.

and, no, what they are doing is not upgrades and patches, as ordinary software companies do. it's fixing their loopholes. also they need to redevelop parts of it due to new monsters, feats, which is kinda strange and reeks of incompetence.

No. They are patching and improving, which as anyone will tell you, is quite realistic and expected of any company making a program. In fact, one could almost say it is the norm, seeing as how very few (none??) programs are ever released perfect. As for having to expand the database to include new monsters, I fail to see how that "reeks of incompetence". The designers for the interface were undoubtedly given a set of data that would be placed into the database. Then, the designers of D&D went and started creating monsters *outside* of said original dataset. Now I am not sure how much mind-reading the programmers you know can do, but for most of them that I know, it approaches zero.

no, the current compendium only has one good thing for it: the data behind it. everything else is like done by a 2nd grader in highschool, and if any of my devs would come to me with such an application after that long of development time, i'd likely send him into lots of web development and usability training courses just so he gets up-to-date again.

If only the data was the important thing, then I guess that you would have no problem simply having the data file and having to flip through it manually, or having to use a command line interface instead of a GUI.

i don't know what business you're in, (except horraying wotc), but i develop software for a living. i know what i'm talking about, and i know that they're doing a pretty bad job.

is it better than what was available before? partially with the builder, definitely with the compendium (they just let noone put up that data)

btw: that's the reason why i said you are a very partial vcl - but again, this is required to do that job anyway.

mudbunny wrote:

Imagine that, a program designed to allow an easy-to-use interface with a database, only interfaces with the database. Whodathunkit!!

I know!!! Its GREAT!!! AND IT DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY WOOHOO!!!! *dances with MB*

mudbunny wrote:

I need to dig through my previous posts. I *know* that I predicted that someone would claim this.

My friends and I did this one already. We timed it to just over 3 weeks and we weren't even working on it every day. The only books it doesn't have in it are Open Grave and Draconomicon. (We didn't put the MM or any monster in our though) We just haven't gotten to those yet because we have jobs that, uh, aren't doing what the program guys at WOTC are SUPPOSED to be doing. We aren't programmers and we use it privately. If we wanted to throw artwork on there, we would, but we don't care for it for that particular tool.

You predicted it, and there are A LOT of players and DMs who did this. I know I'm not the only one.

mudbunny wrote:

No. They are patching and improving, which as anyone will tell you, is quite realistic and expected of any company making a program. In fact, one could almost say it is the norm, seeing as how very few (none??) programs are ever released perfect.

I hope they make it considerably better than it is right now. I was REALLY excited to use it when the updates came out for it, but... it is still infuriating to use.

mudbunny wrote:

As for having to expand the database to include new monsters, I fail to see how that "reeks of incompetence".

I think I covered that already... but just in case, you should read back up.

mudbunny wrote:

If only the data was the important thing, then I guess that you would have no problem simply having the data file and having to flip through it manually, or having to use a command line interface instead of a GUI.

Dig through books for 10-15 minutes in game... have an easy to use program that has the rules in question available... Not hard to see the best option there...

Considering that if I put forward ANY real time into my 'compendium' I could have the information in it before they updated anything on theirs AND that it isn't absolutely infuriating to reference quickly in a game... I'd say there are many compendiums that would do better than the one they have now.

so the interface is basic... I don't get why this is such a big deal.

Yes it does look like it was made in 2 weeks (if you had good prep and such it could be less)

but really, once somethings done, it is done and you can live with it. They likely roadmap just like everyone else, so they organized things based on steps.

step 1, rules Data base
step 2, Data base interface(that's the compendium)
step 3, Character builder or visualizer (builds off database info)
step 4, dungeon builder(uses database monsters)
step 5, game table (integrates all of them, can't be done until all the prior is done)

to get passed step 2 quick, they did something quick with plans to revisit it later. Same with the character builder, they weren't shooting for perfect right off the back. I expect future tools to be the same, not perfect out the door, but rather sending updates to improve the products.

So now they are going back and updating things. Really, to criticize a company for putting a product out that's not really 1.0 status isn't tactful, especially given the situation that WoTC put it's programmers in. The staff is trying to get stuff out quick, and it will then go back and work on making them perfect.

1) they failed in making it steps. they're still doing multiple things at once with the same perosn responsible for multiple things at once. (compendium, cb)
2) your step a) is not present. the rules data base does not contain rules.

and no, it was in no way a quick release.

whitebaron wrote:

i don't know what business you're in, (except horraying wotc),

I've been using various sorts of software for the better part of 20 years now, and the "release software" followed by "patch to improve or fix bugs" is, I would have to say, pretty much a universal way of doing things.

but i develop software for a living. i know what i'm talking about, and i know that they're doing a pretty bad job.

Appeal to Authority

Kyros_Tachyus wrote:

I know!!! Its GREAT!!! AND IT DOESN'T WORK PROPERLY WOOHOO!!!! *dances with MB*

*shrug* works for me. I type in a term, it gives me the results that are in the database. How exactly does the Compendium not work for you?

My friends and I did this one already. We timed it to just over 3 weeks and we weren't even working on it every day. The only books it doesn't have in it are Open Grave and Draconomicon. (We didn't put the MM or any monster in our though) We just haven't gotten to those yet because we have jobs that, uh, aren't doing what the program guys at WOTC are SUPPOSED to be doing. We aren't programmers and we use it privately. If we wanted to throw artwork on there, we would, but we don't care for it for that particular tool.

So you did one that has [list=a]

a lot less data in it than the WotC version;

is designed to work for only a few, as opposed to orders of magnitude higher numbers of simultaneous access;

isn't required to interface with a separate database checking for proper subscription access; and

any number of other requirements that WotC placed on the programmers.

You will forgive me if I don't take your (and whitebaron's) claim that it could be done in a couple of weeks. Note that I am not saying that they are late, because they are.

whitebaron wrote:

1) they failed in making it steps. they're still doing multiple things at once with the same perosn responsible for multiple things at once. (compendium, cb)

So, just to make sure I understand you, you expect WotC to write perfect software that never needs any patches, and that the programmers of the software (as well as the developers of D&D) are expected to predict (now) all of the various things that might require additional data fields to be created when the devs think of it 4 years from now.

I'd like to mention that firing off labels - or implying them - sets up a divide.

MB (and myself at times) get called WotC fanboys, or have it pointed out that we "Hooray WotC". Doing so automatically sets the stage for a confrontation, because even if it isn't true, it sets the person making the accusation up to be labeled "anti-fan" by their own words.

If MB's "job" is to "Hooray WotC" that sets up the expectation that you're being a detractor - even if your goal is to simply provide constructive critism.

I should also point out that the reports that I send to WotC CM about the status of the DDI forums and the status of DDI are fairly critical and *do* bring up (almost) all of the points that are made on these forums.

Ask any one of the NGs (WolfStar76, AsmodeusLore, Cart_Sprinter or Kouk). They have seen them, they have input on them.

I should also point out that a person who is an expert by virtue of relevant experience is not making a fallacious argument in referencing their experience.

If you only have user experience and no first hand knowledge of product/program development don't make accusations about fallacious argument in this case.

People with experience or training in the matter will recognise the validity of the argument whitebaron makes, the issue is that we cannot see behind the curtain at WotC to know why the final product we do see emerged the way it did. There is certainly evidence out there that its not the programers and their immediate project leaders that are at fault here, but rather the interface of the project groups with other interests in the corporate body.

As to it not having been done before... have people not seen d20srd.org which does this for 3E?

Its not rocket science, its database access through a website, and there are many well established solutions to this, even for ones that require a log on. (Hint you are using one right now.)

mudbunny wrote:

I should also point out that the reports that I send to WotC CM about the status of the DDI forums and the status of DDI are fairly critical and *do* bring up (almost) all of the points that are made on these forums.

all i always see is you horraying wotc. everything else is left to private circles, it seems.

as for your fallacy: well, apply it to your user-experience first and see whether you come out superior.

as for making the product within 2 weeks: give me access to their database, and i'll give you the same amount of usability as the compendium has within 2 weeks. deal? (the hard part about such a project is only the data input, not the user interface. output, searching, filters - that's pretty common cheese.)

oh, and for the database: yes, i expect them to talk to the designers, AND be prepared for changes. nothing more. dnd is based on exception-based design, so you should make the database for the exceptions, not the rules. this is where they failed.

some other technicalities: they failed to use foreign keys for some of their values, like "standard elite solo", which results in errors at data input time, which are just ridiculous in the modern time.

---
@wolfstar: i appreciate your opinion, but i've had it with those "oh everything is good"-sayers. especially since mb made it very clear that he believes my claims to be ridiculous, and his to be far superior.

mudbunny wrote:

So you did one that has [list=a]

a lot less data in it than the WotC version;

is designed to work for only a few, as opposed to orders of magnitude higher numbers of simultaneous access;

isn't required to interface with a separate database checking for proper subscription access; and

any number of other requirements that WotC placed on the programmers.

1. Actually ours has the most used rules elements that are needed, as well as the page references to them in case of a misprint. So in essence, mine has stuff that theirs DOESN'T. So... technically... ours had more information than the original one they put out.

2. Well, yeah. Its designed to work for me and my group.

3. No, considering that one would just have access to the primary database and not have to go through an interface. Its all in PDF format and chaptered out. Its actually much easier to reference because, hey, its right here and not lost because of an inaccurate keyword and doesn't log you out every 15 minutes (which, to my knowledge, they still haven't fixed on theirs because I'm still booted after a short time).


Inputing the information took the longest, sure. But it only took us 3 weeks to create a working compendium. Now, of course we didn't have to upload the information to the web or have to write out the rest of the program, but we ARE NOT programmers. Just a bunch of geeks wanting an easy to use compendium that DOESN'T give us a headache.

mudbunny wrote:

You will forgive me if I don't take your (and whitebaron's) claim that it could be done in a couple of weeks.

I'll remind you I never said that it could be done in 2 weeks. However, with people who actually sit down and have the job explicitly to make these programs, yes, I do believe that this could have been done in about a month and a half (max) by a group of competent programmers who job was explicitly to work on this. This isn't a big program. This isn't Diablo 3. This isn't Oblivion. Its a web-based compendium.

mudbunny wrote:

So, just to make sure I understand you, you expect WotC to write perfect software that never needs any patches and that the programmers of the software (as well as the developers of D&D) are expected to predict (now) all of the various things that might require additional data fields to be created when the devs think of it 4 years from now.

Uh, no. That is ridiculous and you know that isn't what we meant. Stop putting words in our mouths.

Bill sent us this 13 days ago:
So, whether you answer a survey or take a poll or post to the message boards, please talk to us. Digital Insider is ending, but the conversation is just beginning.

Hmmmm conversation, where are the people from WotC. Did they want to talk about Insider with us? Because they haven't been here. The volunteer , note I didn't say fanboys because I consider myself a D&D fanboy, have been here to tell us to calm down and that the WotC guys will tell us some news when they get it. Here is the big picture, the guys at WotC have the news we want. All we really want is an answer to a single question:

Is Wizards of the coast continuing to work on new elements for Digital Insider; and if yes which ones? That is one gentlemen asking another group of fine gentlemen if they are still planning to go through with the tools that were the basis for changing their overall product.

Sincerely Redsnowdude - A DM who enjoys 4E and for once on these boards would like someone with the title Staff to answer a single question.

redsnowdude wrote:

I didn't say fanboys because I consider myself a D&D fanboy... A DM who enjoys 4E and for once on these boards would like someone with the title Staff to answer a single question.

I could kiss you. Well said in both accounts. You and I are in the same situation regarding this. I don't think it could be said much better than the way you posted it.

Do we get an answer guys?

Your best bet if you want an answer is to go through the "Contact CS" link at the bottom of the page. Simply posting a question on the forums in the middle of a thread this deep greatly diminishes the chance that a WotC employee will see it and pass it on up to the people who have the authority to answer your question.

mudbunny wrote:

Simply posting a question on the forums in the middle of a thread this deep greatly diminishes the chance that a WotC employee will see it and pass it on up to the people who have the authority to answer your question.

...really? I thought they said to post on the forums (among other things)?

*Checks Bill's quote*

Yep. They sure did. So what gives?

Still waiting for that answer guys.

Kyros_Tachyus wrote:

...really? I thought they said to post on the forums (among other things)?

*Checks Bill's quote*

Yep. They sure did. So what gives?

Still waiting for that answer guys.

I didn't say that you shouldn't. I just said that your chances of getting an answer are, IMO, *much* higher if you send it through the CS system, where it is sure to be directed to the appropriate person/people.

Yes, but they did not say to use the CS.

They said take a survey or give feedback here. I mean, unless you're telling me that doing something they didn't ask us to do will ACTUALLY get an answer from them I am completely confused as to why you're telling people to use the CS.

Let me rephrase it to make it clearer. I am tired (long nights with a sick daughter) so may not be as clear as I want to be.

Posting a question 300+ posts into a thread in a fairly busy forum at a time when both the compendium and the character builder have just been updated, greatly decreases the chance that a WotC employee will see it.

In order to increase the chance that someone will see it, you have a couple of options: You can send a comment through the CS system through the link I posted above (I have fixed the embedded image, I linked to the incorrect one earlier). The other option would be to start a new thread in this forum.

I was sure that I had put the second option (starting a new thread) in my above posts, but I see that I didn't. My apologies for the confusion.

I would like to apologize to the people in the thread.

Reading back over my posts from last night only confirms my belief that I need to be more careful when posting when I am tired. The tone of my posts was far too aggressive, and for that, I apologize.

While I disagree with the point of view that some people have towards WotC/DDI, there was no need for me to respond the way that I did.

Again, I apologize.

Well I just shot off an E-mail to them with my question, and hopefully we will all gain the respect of an answer within 2 business days. Which because I am a nice guy will go ahead and assume Monday of next week.

Still hopeful

Edit: Mudbunny you do an excellent job on these forums. You do your best to answer questions and I firmly believe that you do your best to pass information on to WotC.

redsnowdude wrote:

Well I just shot off an E-mail to them with my question, and hopefully we will all gain the respect of an answer within 2 business days. Which because I am a nice guy will go ahead and assume Monday of next week.

Honestly, I wouldn't expect any quick answer on this. From my between-the-lines reading of various posts, combined with the poll, it says to me that they *are* committed to the rest of the tools that they announced. I think that March will see continued focus on the compendium and the character builder while they gather and analyse the data from the survey. Once that is done, I would expect them to decide what tool is going to be worked on next based on a combination of how close the various tools are to completion and what tool most people want to see next. If I remember tomorrow, I have a post from a staff member saying what state the various tools are in.

Edit: Mudbunny you do an excellent job on these forums. You do your best to answer questions and I firmly believe that you do your best to pass information on to WotC.

I am trying to get permission to share the status reports that I send to the DDI CM team with you guys.

mudbunny wrote:

Your best bet if you want an answer is to go through the "Contact CS" link at the bottom of the page.

the problem with that is manyfold:
most importantly, though, it means that you'll get answer by a service guy.

someone, who is by definition, not able to answer what we really want. only bill or someone similarly high up in the authority chain can currently give those answers, as all devs are on very tight leash.

a CS guy just won't know, and even if he knows by chance, he won't tell due to not being allowed to do so. all you get by using CS is "we'll pass it up the chain, issue resolved"

oh, and there is already a single thread dedicated to getting more information, which i'll shamelessly bump until someone posts -something- official in there.

@bunny: we all have our ups and downs. at least now i know where your down hailed from. hope your daughter's getting better.

If you go through the link and set of drop-down menus that is indicated in my post, it gets sent to the D&D Community Management, not Customer Service.

What a mess.

Bandersnatch wrote:

What a mess.

Wouldn't be such a mess if they'd tell us what in the Nine Hells is going on.

mudbunny wrote:

Cheap is perhaps the wrong word. "Not extremely expensive" or "Not money is no object" cost might be more accurate.

By cheap it doesn't mean minimum wage, it just means that you aren't throwning heaps of money at the project.

I think that WotC has picked good and cheap. The Character Builder is good, the compendium is great, and based onthe quick preview by WotC_DM, it looks like the upgrades that they have done to them are on the great side as well.

Just for fun:

See good and cheap

Seriously, there are some severe flaws in the way WOTC has gone about this (as a developer myself..).

It seems to me that they're making some moves to correct this, but it's hard to say as an outsider as, well, we don't get any info :D We're going to have to trust that they're fixing things. It's hard to trust as they've disappointed us several times in the past 8 months or so, but I'm an eternal optimist.....

that image is pretty realistic.

however, good and cheap is pretty much never possible (in software), except if you cut down on features to make it so.

Some of us seem to believe that WotC is an experienced software company that knows how to develop and deliver good software on time and within budget. When they don't do better than the industry average, we are upset (or enraged).

We are spoiled because Wizards is way ahead of the curve when it comes to printed product. Most books come out on time (to the day), using a schedule that is made public 8 months in advance. The majority of game publishers don't give us anywhere near that lead time and are pretty consistantly late by a month or more.

WotC overestimated their abilities when it came to software. Development there is different, and they weren't ready for how different. So they let us down. They didn't lie, they made mistakes. They didn't "break a promise", they were unable to meet their planned release schedule. I haven't studied every press release, but I have yet to see or hear a statement from them where anyone said "I (or we) PROMISE...". Nor did they guarantee to deliver on time. They announced (and promoted) their planned schedule, but that's not the same as a promise. I am certain that they wanted to deliver on time and as projected. No one is as disappointed as WotC that all the tools and VTT is not yet available. Don't forget, they thought they would be getting more money than they are for DDI.

It's disappointing they didn't deliver, we don't have to like it, we don't even have to forgive them. But we did know from before 4E release date that the electronic goodies were going to be late, that some were a year or more off. So let's try to keep a bit of perspective in our rants.

I'm a DM and a DDI subscriber, and someone who will renew when my year is coming to an end around Nov/Dec of this year regardless of what tools are out at that point, but the reason that none of my gamers are subscribers is very simple: the Visualizer was the primary draw for all of them. If there was so much as a beta (or even an alpha) of half the quality of the demos available at cons over the past year, I know all my gamers would subscribe for a chance to play around with even those barebones features and create character after character after character. I think they're missing out on big money by not having a demo they could have had for us while they were still beta testing the Builder. That money, in turn, would help generate revenue to add team members and increase the speed at which all the features come out.

Just my two copper.

thalmin wrote:

It's disappointing they didn't deliver, we don't have to like it, we don't even have to forgive them. But we did know from before 4E release date that the electronic goodies were going to be late, that some were a year or more off. So let's try to keep a bit of perspective in our rants.

I know WOTC is not a software company. But they knew well before the relase of 4th ed that DDi would not be ready on time. They said NOTHING. Then when 4th ed hit, with full page ads in the back of the core books, they still said NOTHING for two months. Then when they did say something, you had to hunt for info on the fourms. Nothing posted on the DnD main page.

I understand that software stuff gets delayed all the time, I'm upset at how WOTC did not inform the customer base of it and I feel they are still doing it with regaurds to DDi.

Show me where we know before 4th ed came out that the tools would be delayed.

Well I got an e-mail back from customer service. No info, quoted bill about how DDI is a living growing experience. And here is the jist of the e-mail


Unfortunately, we in customer service are not the developers for D&D Insider, and we do not know which features they are currently working on, or which features will get released next. I can assure you though, that we are just as excited as you are to find out. Thank you so much for your support! Please let me know if you need anymore help!

So yeah pretty unfortunate. No news, and the light at the end of the tunnel looking more and more like the "we won't be saying anything until 5th edition train." I still hope that all the DDI stuff goes up, but WotC has broken my spirit.


-Redsnowdude, still waiting for a staff response.

davethebrave371 wrote:

That money, in turn, would help generate revenue to add team members and increase the speed at which all the features come out.

well said, but: adding team members to an already late project makes it finish even later. that's due to the increased communication[sup][1][/sup] needed, and the training[sup][2][/sup] of new members you'll need. What would speed up the development process is something they seem to have partially done - focus each person on only one task.[sup][3][/sup]

still, their sw-development process is awfully slow and it seems very far from perfect[sup][4][/sup], so i do not expect them to deliver anything else for the majority of this year.





[1] each additional team member increases the amount of communication channels by n-1. total channels is n*(n-1)/2
1-> 0; 2-> 1; 3-> 3; 4-> 6; 5-> 10;
so, if you'd need to talk to your sole coworker 2 hours/day, it would be a total of 20 hours/day for 5 people. (or 4 hours per worker, so effectively doubling the communication needed)
---
[2] training does not necessarily mean you learn something new, just teaching the basic premises and expectations can take a long time, and takes time from both the seasoned and the new dev - resulting in some months of lost time until the new one is fully up and running.
---
[3] which saddens me, is that WOTC really only uses one team of developers for so many different tasks at once. This can only lead to disaster, the disaster in this case is obvious - very late releases and only 1/4th of the expected features are ready yet.
---
[4] noone can ever be truly perfect for that matter. but their procedure obviously needs a lot of tuning, not just some finetuning. this is only to be expected, for such an unexperienced team. however, they seem to have at least some passion left. while it does not make better software, it helps in clearing up the mess they leave behind.

thalmin wrote:

It's disappointing they didn't deliver, we don't have to like it, we don't even have to forgive them. But we did know from before 4E release date that the electronic goodies were going to be late, that some were a year or more off. So let's try to keep a bit of perspective in our rants.

You make a good point Curt, but you have to consider that not everyone knew that the goodies were going to be late. Not everyone is as plugged in as many of us here are.

That kid who just got his parents to shell out over $100 for the base books looks at the back of the PH and sees all these goodies that seemingly are available.

Trouble is, they are not.

So, perhaps, it is back to World of Warcraft for him, and we've lost (at least for a while) another of the next generation of gamers.

I have a hard time putting a thieving template on the WotC division in this matter, it just does not seem to fit for me, although obviously for others it does. What concerns me more than anything is the WotC divisions continued inability to communicate and work to stamp down these little fires that keep popping up.

One of the latest ones was generated by the wording (what was left out, actually) of a WotC release. A simple clarification, and multiple pages of a divisive thread here are stopped dead in their tracks.

But that is not happening. And that is why I have a concern for the future of D&D, under Hasbro.

Hindsight being 20/20 they probably should have just hired a reputable outside company to create all these products. Had they released a complete set of tools one year ago, they could have subscribers paying full price the entire time. Let's say 20k subscribers paying $15 a month that is a lot of revenue (I have no idea what the actual amount of subscribers are, but 20k seems low enough).

Hi all,

About a year ago, I heard about the new 4E tools, and saw the demo on YouTube. Looked awesome, but I was hesitant to shell out the money for 4E core books, not to mention the monthly subscription fee.

I just bought the 4E core books (about $100 -- Yuck!). In the back are advertisements for DDI which appear to show the Character Visualizer and Game Table. Clearly, the implication is that if you subscribe to DDI, you'll have access to these tools.

Therefore, I just signed up for a 1-year subscription to DDI (about $60), downloaded/installed the Character Builder... and then noticed the "Character Visualizer" button was greyed out. On the right side of the window was the message, "You must have the Character Visualizer installed for this to function." So I went back to the DDI website, clicked on the Character Builder button, and looked for the "Download the Character Visualizer software here" link. Nothing.

It was at this point that I realized that the Character Builder and Character Visualizer were two different software applications (up until this point, I assumed that the Character Visualizer was built into the Character Builder, and that I just needed to subscribe to DDI in order to "unlock" this feature). The Character Builder FAQ makes no mention of the Character Visualizer. So I went searching under "D&DI News" link, and found this forum.

I don't mean to sound like a lawyer, but I feel like I've been totally misled here ("bait and switch"). The advertisements in the core rulebooks clearly imply that the Character Visualizer and Game Table are accessible via the D&D Insider subscription. Is there talk of a class action lawsuit? I know it would probably hurt WotC, but what about all of the people like me who were tricked into subscribing in order to gain access to software that doesn't exist, based on false advertising?

Some might argue, "Well, you get a lot of other cool stuff for your subscription money, like the magazines and Bonus Tools." I have almost never bought one of those magazines, and I certainly would never pay for a subscription to them. As for the Bonus Tools, I haven't even looked at them, because they're not what I was expecting (Character Visualizer and Game Table), based on the advertisements in the core rulebooks. The Character Builder is nice, but there are lots of "homegrown" solutions on the Internet which can be downloaded for free. Or I can just fill out the character sheet manually. So no need to spend $60 just for the Character Builder. And the Compendium? Nice, but I don't really use it. I'm a "core rules" purist, and don't plan to use any of the extra feats/powers/classes/etc. found in magazines, Players Handbook XXIII, etc. I have no intention of buying any hardcover books above and beyond the 3 core rulebooks (PHB, MM, DMG).

So what exactly did I get for my $60 annual subscription to DDI which is of value to me? Basically just the Character Builder. Yuck. Class action lawsuit? Hope not, because I like WotC, and hope they succeed. On the other hand, if they don't deliver on the Character Visualizer and Game Table (and the Dungeon Builder, as well), I will definitely not renew my subscription, and will probably ask WotC to refund my money.

Thoughts?

V/R,
JP

Then you my friend just lost....

Scrotok wrote:

Hi all,

...

I don't mean to sound like a lawyer, but I feel like I've been totally misled here ("bait and switch"). The advertisements in the core rulebooks clearly imply that the Character Visualizer and Game Table are accessible via the D&D Insider subscription. Is there talk of a class action lawsuit? I know it would probably hurt WotC, but what about all of the people like me who were tricked into subscribing in order to gain access to software that doesn't exist, based on false advertising?

...

So what exactly did I get for my $60 annual subscription to DDI which is of value to me? Basically just the Character Builder. Yuck. Class action lawsuit? Hope not, because I like WotC, and hope they succeed. On the other hand, if they don't deliver on the Character Visualizer and Game Table (and the Dungeon Builder, as well), I will definitely not renew my subscription, and will probably ask WotC to refund my money.

Thoughts?

V/R,
JP

You may not have realized this, but you are getting everything at half-cost right now. WotC recognized that they weren't going to be able to deliver the full suite, so they cut the subscription cost in half, until they are able to give out a more complete selection. No guarantees about how long this reduced cost offering will last, mind you.

Scrotok wrote:

So what exactly did I get for my $60 annual subscription to DDI which is of value to me? Basically just the Character Builder. Yuck. Class action lawsuit? Hope not, because I like WotC, and hope they succeed. On the other hand, if they don't deliver on the Character Visualizer and Game Table (and the Dungeon Builder, as well), I will definitely not renew my subscription, and will probably ask WotC to refund my money.

Thoughts?

V/R,
JP

No class action possible.

You got what you purchased, three books with ads last few pages (hardly the first time a book had ads in them).
You purchased a "web content" package at about 1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer was that included a full package.

You received exactly what you agreed to purchase.

You do receive the "web content" plus the Bonus Tools that were not advertised. Now yes the ad said you could purchase more, however as it was not available (and still is not) you did not purchase more.

Oh forgot you also get the one application now as well for the same price as "web content"

AsmodeusLore wrote:

You may not have realized this, but you are getting everything at half-cost right now. WotC recognized that they weren't going to be able to deliver the full suite, so they cut the subscription cost in half, until they are able to give out a more complete selection. No guarantees about how long this reduced cost offering will last, mind you.

I made the decision to spend $60 on the 1-year subscription based on the false advertisement implying that DDI included the Character Visualizer and Game Table. If the cost had been $120 for a 1-year subscription, I still might have gone ahead with the purchase, although I would have been more hesitant to spend that much. I assumed that the $60 for DDI is a little more than how much you would pay for a first-rate PC game. So buying the equivalent of one new PC game per year didn't sound too bad.

It's all about what the customer perceives as value. I value the Character Visualizer, Game Table, and Dungeon Builder because that's what was advertised as part of DDI. Not the magazines, which I could care less about.

So the "half-price" argument doesn't hold water with me. If/when WotC releases the Character Visualizer, Dungeon Builder, and Game Table, I'll re-assess whether I want to pay $100+ per year.

Kentinal wrote:

You purchased a "web content" package at about 1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer was that included a full package.

You received exactly what you agreed to purchase.

Now yes the ad said you could purchase more, however as it was not available (and still is not) you did not purchase more.

Not sure I understand you, but here goes:
- "the advertised DDI offer" that I'm talking about (the advertisements in the core rulebooks) mentions a "web content" package in terms of "quick access to exclusive material".
- However, the advertisement also mentions "digital tools." The advertisement then says "And with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere--wherever they live, wherever you go." Combined with the visual images of the Character Visualizer and Game Table, these words clearly imply that DDI comes with Character Visualizer and Game Table.
- "1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer"... the advertisements make no mention of how much DDI subscriptions cost.
- "You received exactly what you agreed to purchase"... Completely disagree. I agreed to purchase what was shown/implied in the advertisement. WotC failed to deliver said product.
- "the ad said you could purchase more"... No, the advertisements in the core rulebooks do not mention anything like this.

I hate to be a wet blanket, but the subscription page, where you choose the subscription package, makes it pretty clear the tools that are out, and just what you are getting out of your subscription.

mudbunny wrote:

I hate to be a wet blanket, but the subscription page, where you choose the subscription package, makes it pretty clear the tools that are out, and just what you are getting out of your subscription.

Good point, it makes it "pretty clear" -- but not crystal clear. The reason? Because the advertisements in the core rulebooks do not give the name of the software displayed. I am only assuming the software shown in the advertisements is the Character Visualizer and the Game Table. I was only able to deduce this after researching in the forums. A customer shouldn't have to dig through forums. A customer should be able to get something that looks like what's pictured in the advertisement.

Here's the subscription page:
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn … bscription

A reasonable person could assume that the "Character Builder" and "Bonus Tools" included the software pictured in the advertisements. Although the Character Builder page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn … terbuilder) does not show any screenshots like the one in the advertisement, that doesn't mean that the Character Builder software did NOT include this functionality. The Character Builder FAQ made no mention of the Character Visualizer, so it's easy to see how a reasonable person could be confused by the ad. Also, the demo version of Character Builder included a greyed-out "Character Visualizer" button; therefore, one could reasonably assume that the Character Visualizer software is only downloadable or "unlocked" once a subscription is in place.

Looking at the Bonus Tools page (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn … onustools), one could assume that the Encounter Builder includes the Game Table functionality displayed in the ads, although I must admit that I didn't assume this. Note that there is no way for a customer to verify this beforehand, since a current subscription is required to access the Encounter Builder tool (http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dn … untertool). I assumed that the desired functionality (Dungeon Builder and Game Table) would become "unlocked" as part of the Bonus Tools suite once I subscribed to DDI.

Bottom line: The customer should not have to do a bunch of research. What you see (in the ads) should be what you get.

Scrotok wrote:

Not sure I understand you, but here goes:
- "the advertised DDI offer" that I'm talking about (the advertisements in the core rulebooks) mentions a "web content" package in terms of "quick access to exclusive material".
- However, the advertisement also mentions "digital tools." The advertisement then says "And with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere--wherever they live, wherever you go." Combined with the visual images of the Character Visualizer and Game Table, these words clearly imply that DDI comes with Character Visualizer and Game Table.
- "1/2 the cost of the advertised DDI offer"... the advertisements make no mention of how much DDI subscriptions cost.
- "You received exactly what you agreed to purchase"... Completely disagree. I agreed to purchase what was shown/implied in the advertisement. WotC failed to deliver said product.
- "the ad said you could purchase more"... No, the advertisements in the core rulebooks do not mention anything like this.

*sighs*

The DDI was not advertised in just the books and they indicated on the web the price was not final (estimated price was 15.00 USD a month), which is why the price was not listed in the ad. Price subject to change anyway. I have ads in paperbacks that say I can order other paperbacks at a very low price. Considering how old those books are, ordering most of the books likely are out of print or certainly will cost more. Yes I know my example is not the best one, however it many ways it applies. A product is offered for sale, they indicate available now. It was not if you purchased the books June 6th, however you also could not purchase the content (DDI).

There is in no ad that says purchase of the core books or even one of them that you got DDI as part of the purchase price of the book. DDI was free for months past planned subscription for what was ready, before a price was charged for part of what was the advertised DDI package. What you were to pay for from that ill fated June 6th until Oct. IIRC was free to you. As it appears you came late to the game you have no basics to complain about missing out on the free stuff.

To signup, you were provided with the price and what would be provided. I have no idea if you read it, I have no idea when you signed up. One thing I do know is that you did not purchase DDI on that June 6th, because no one could. To hold any company responsible for a dated ad by the time you purchased a stand alone product has not validity under law. There is no case here.

You did not read the fine print, you are not a timely claimant based on what you indicate. The only possible class I could ever see existing would be those that purchased on or before that June 6th with the full intention of purchase of the full DDI package as advertised. IMO even that class would have very little damages to claim, I estimated as much as 0.03 USD as maximum award (before legal fees) per validated person.

are you always so haphazard when you shell out $60?

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say -- not worth my time explaining it again. Cheers!

Scrotok wrote:

I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say -- not worth my time explaining it again. Cheers!

Well let me see, you started with a belief a class action had some merit, it appears you are no longer pursuing that.

You are saying you purchased the books at some point in time and are upset the ads are not true. OK most are upset about that.

You believe you paid for all the tools when you signed up, others have complained that the signup was not all that clear about pointing out it was only for part of the planned DDI. The site however did tell you what you purchased.

Oh if you are upset or made about how well WotC communicates with its customers, most if not all appear to be upset about that.

Communication via text is not the same as face to face, however I believe all the issues you have raised have been addressed. Perhaps you care to try again.

Is just you believe you were tricked into a purchase you really did not want to make? If so some others have indicated that.

JeepNerd wrote:

Here is my feedback:

I am also a Insider subscriber and the Character Builder was HUGE for me. Instead of having "10" places to look up what I need to do to level up, just follow the yellow brick road.

Here is my wish list!!

Amazon Kindle 2 - hits in a few weeks... I would LOVE to be able to easily read Dragon/Dungeon (insider, etc) all on it. (Especially if I can easily PUSH/PULL them into it automagically as an insider)

I would love even MORE to be able to buy PDFs that can easily be used in there for CORE books, etc. Might take some formatting but... 1 Kindle vs the 10 or so books in my backpack, heck ya!!

...

You guys are doing a great job, keep it up, I am getting more addicted by the day!! (I have 5-6 pre-orders ready to go on Amazon as soon as they release, including MINIS!)

I got the Kindle 2 this week and it is a huge improvement over the Kindle 1. I am a person who has been calling for reasonably priced PDFs for years; they are just too expensive for me right now. But, what I would actually much rather have is the books in Kindle format! A good price point would be $10-20 on Amazon.com. If you sell them for $10 I will buy *every* book you publish in that format! I already buy just about every print book for $20-25 that you publish on Amazon.

This morning I spent $100 on books for the Kindle 2. I would *love* to spend another $100 on D&D books. I guess you would probably have to have someone work on making the books look good in Kindle format, but I bet if you spent 40 hours on each book to create them and then 10 hours a month on *updating* them so that customers had versions with errata applied so that users would just always have the latest versions automagically downloaded to them. Well, I would be in heaven.

I really want to give you guys more money, but I want quality products in return. If you can't afford an employee to do the work... Get a Graphics Design intern to do it for free. I bet that there are plenty of people who would jump at the prospect. Heck, I would probably do it for you for free if you couldn't find someone better.

Now you might think to yourself, well it is just not worth our time, but I really think *now* is the time. So I ask you fellow D&D players, how many of you would buy Kindle versions of D&D books? Let WotC know. I would think that this has got to be more attractive to WotC than PDFs -- it has DRM built into it unlike the PDFs I bought (for *more* than the price of the physical core books).

Oh, and by the way, I have converted the core PDFs into Mobireader format and sent them to my Kindle 2. They look OK, but just OK -- you know thet artwork looks pretty good on the Kindle 2. But, I would rather someone do a more professional version... I have $100 burning a hole on my Amazon credit card ;-}

And on the subject of the magazines... Wow!!! I would love to have then delivered to my Kindle 2, but for now I will go through the pain of downloading the PDFs and converting them to Kindle 2 format (mobi) and then emailing them to my Kindle. I am going to be much more like to read them on the Kindle 2.

Love the Character Builder! Good job guys. I'll expect you to deliver another quality software product when you finish it. As an ex-software developer, I know these things take time, but please don't give up.

But please explore a more substantial relationship with Amazon and the Kindle 2. The Kindle 1 sold 500,000 units -- mostly to Oprah fans ;-} But I think techies will buy the Kindle 2 and a lot of those folks are ex-/current-/potential-D&D customers. And you can bet that Kindle 2 have disposable cash ;-}

Put out quality products and they will come...

Best regards,
John the Librarian

JeepNerd wrote:

Here is my feedback:

I am also a Insider subscriber and the Character Builder was HUGE for me. Instead of having "10" places to look up what I need to do to level up, just follow the yellow brick road.

Here is my wish list!!

Amazon Kindle 2 - hits in a few weeks... I would LOVE to be able to easily read Dragon/Dungeon (insider, etc) all on it. (Especially if I can easily PUSH/PULL them into it automagically as an insider)

I would love even MORE to be able to buy PDFs that can easily be used in there for CORE books, etc. Might take some formatting but... 1 Kindle vs the 10 or so books in my backpack, heck ya!!

...

You guys are doing a great job, keep it up, I am getting more addicted by the day!! (I have 5-6 pre-orders ready to go on Amazon as soon as they release, including MINIS!)

I got the Kindle 2 this week and it is a huge improvement over the Kindle 1. I am a person who has been calling for reasonably priced PDFs for years; they are just too expensive for me right now. But, what I would actually much rather have is the books in Kindle format! A good price point would be $10-20 on Amazon.com. If you sell them for $10 I will buy *every* book you publish in that format! I already buy just about every print book for $20-25 that you publish on Amazon.

This morning I spent $100 on books for the Kindle 2. I would *love* to spend another $100 on D&D books. I guess you would probably have to have someone work on making the books look good in Kindle format, but I bet if you spent 40 hours on each book to create them and then 10 hours a month on *updating* them so that customers had versions with errata applied so that users would just always have the latest versions automagically downloaded to them. Well, I would be in heaven.

I really want to give you guys more money, but I want quality products in return. If you can't afford an employee to do the work... Get a Graphics Design intern to do it for free. I bet that there are plenty of people who would jump at the prospect. Heck, I would probably do it for you for free if you couldn't find someone better.

Now you might think to yourself, well it is just not worth our time, but I really think *now* is the time. So I ask you fellow D&D players, how many of you would buy Kindle versions of D&D books? Let WotC know. I would think that this has got to be more attractive to WotC than PDFs -- it has DRM built into it unlike the PDFs I bought (for *more* than the price of the physical core books).

Oh, and by the way, I have converted the core PDFs into Mobireader format and sent them to my Kindle 2. They look OK, but just OK -- you know that artwork looks pretty good on the Kindle 2. But, I would rather someone do a more professional version... I have $100 burning a hole on my Amazon credit card ;-}

And on the subject of the magazines... Wow!!! I would love to have then delivered to my Kindle 2, but for now I will go through the pain of downloading the PDFs and converting them to Kindle 2 format (mobi) and then emailing them to my Kindle. I am going to be much more like to read them on the Kindle 2.

Love the Character Builder! Good job guys. I'll expect you to deliver another quality software product when you finish it. As an ex-software developer, I know these things take time, but please don't give up.

But please explore a more substantial relationship with Amazon and the Kindle 2. The Kindle 1 sold 500,000 units -- mostly to Oprah fans ;-} But I think techies will buy the Kindle 2 and a lot of those folks are ex-/current-/potential-D&D customers. And you can bet that Kindle 2 users have disposable cash ;-}

Put out quality products and they will come...

Best regards,
John the Librarian

So... I just wanted to say that we are... uh... still waiting for that answer guys.

We haven't forgotten.

I noticed the Gametable isn't mentioned on the D&D insider page anymore. Is that project dead?

johnsoga wrote:

I noticed the Gametable isn't mentioned on the D&D insider page anymore. Is that project dead?

There is no official word.

I strongly believe: its coming out, the site people just don't want 3 entries on the site for late products. They likely removed the references to save face.

FOr a good explanation of why they did this, listen to the Panel Interview/Q&A session that was held at GenghisCon. I *think* that the relevant portion is in part 2, but may be wrong.

Part 1
Part 2

*twiddles thumbs*

We're waiting guys...

Bill Slavicek]We will stay in touch, just not on a weekly basis. [...]
Digital Insider is ending, but the conversation is just beginning.

I guess I am not the only one who can say now: "That was either a lie, or they overpromised again." Or everyone who wanted to stay in touch just fell in a wrote: