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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:22PM
#21
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Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2002
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Books are unnecessary?
Really?
So then 4E is really a virtual product with the print products a sideline?
Wow! Who would ever have thought something like that?
I mean other than me.
And obviously WotC.
In your haste to be snarky, you took my meaning out of context.
To some extent, yes, books are unnecessary, but only in the context of having a searchable database that allows one to query for a subset of game elements (e.g. - searching for a list of powers based on level and/or class) across all books and articles published to date with search results including errata. An index is subpar for such a task as it only gives a reference to a book and page number. You still have to rummage through your entire stack of books (if you even have all of the books), flip through the desired pages, and then compare and contrast the options. Then you need to find that file and page number of the articles from Dragon or Dungeon, too.
Contrast that entire process with typing a keyword such as a class name, selecting the category such as powers, sorting or filtering by level, and simply clicking a link to see the full description.
This is not to say that the Compendium replaces the book entirely. There is other material in the book that is worthwhile, and the book will never experience downtime or disconnections like a web site would. My point is that I think an online, updated, and complete database that includes content from the two online magazines is worth a measly $8 a month and is not compareable to the Hypertext d20 SRD. Granted, the latter includes most of the core rules, but it doesn't include anything published since then besides some material from Deities and Demigods, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana; even then, that material has some exclusions.
Anyway, I'm not here to defend D&DI or 4e as I don't even play 4e or subscribe to D&DI. I'm only giving a fair opinion of what's worth $8 a month.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:25PM
#22
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Date Joined:
Oct 14, 2008
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I don't ever post on here, ever I only sit and watch, but, honestly I stopped purchasing things after 3.5 came out. I am a second edition loyalist who eventually caved in and filled an entire bookshelf with 3 and 3.5..... only to have 4th come out lightening quick afterwards. I've looked at the product and it seems like a downhill slide. Gaming rules aside the print and the binding of the books themselves seems I dunno, cheap? Especially for the price I saw on them. I don't however give up on D&D for any time length. I simply use the rules that work for my group and myself. D&D isn't about getting shiny enhancements, or having over-priced hardback books. It's about getting the group together and making it memorable. So to the guy (or gal?) who is bowing out I'd say I'll see you in a few years when they iron it out some. Until then happy gaming.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:29PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Sep 28, 2006
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You do realize the ship sailed on that late last year, right?
And the crypt was sealed forever when the last video interview was posted.
But good luck with it. After this much you time you will need a heck of a lot of luck to salvage this community.
I may just be tired, but I really don't see the connection between my reply to Kyros (saying that WotC wants to hear all points of view, positive and negative) and your response to my post.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:40PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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In your haste to be snarky, you took my meaning out of context.
That would actually be you, in your haste to be snarky, saying something you do not mean or do not want to have to defend against the full implications.
To some extent, yes, books are unnecessary, but only in the context of having a searchable database that allows one to query for a subset of game elements (e.g. - searching for a list of powers based on level and/or class) across all books and articles published to date with search results including errata.
Too bad absolutely none of that context was included in your original comment.
Contrast that entire process with typing a keyword such as a class name, selecting the category such as powers, sorting or filtering by level, and simply clicking a link to see the full description.
I am contrasting that.
With the Compendium you absolutely do not need the books.
What part of that are you not trying to make clear?
This is not to say that the Compendium replaces the book entirely. There is other material in the book that is worthwhile, and the book will never experience downtime or disconnections like a web site would.
So if the Compendium does not contain everything the books contain, why can the books not contain a complete index?
Why can a complete index that can function independent of the web not be made available?
Are you now trying to convince me the Compendium is not as good as you tried to suggest it was before?
My point is that I think an online, updated, and complete database that includes content from the two online magazines is worth a measly $8 a month and is not compareable to the Hypertext d20 SRD.
Right, the Hypertext D20 SRD is free, and there are free e-zines and game sites that can provide more content than the two online magazines. That . . . pretty much makes that $8 way overpriced.
Granted, the latter includes most of the core rules, but it doesn't include anything published since then besides some material from Deities and Demigods, Expanded Psionics Handbook, and Unearthed Arcana; even then, that material has some exclusions.
Yep.
That is why I tend to just use the WotC indexes. They do not contain spells other than the PHB and SpC, but nothing is perfect.
Anyway, I'm not here to defend D&DI or 4e as I don't even play 4e or subscribe to D&DI. I'm only giving a fair opinion of what's worth $8 a month.
And I am just giving a fair opinion of what is not worth $8 a month.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:44PM
#25
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Date Joined:
Feb 24, 2002
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:surrender I just don't care enough. 
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 9:49PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Mar 16, 2001
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I may just be tired, but I really don't see the connection between my reply to Kyros (saying that WotC wants to hear all points of view, positive and negative) and your response to my post.
The time for WotC, or any of its representatives, to make a big deal about caring that everyone be allowed to express their points of view, positive and negative, was this past year when the various 4E supporters were going out of their way to flame people off the forums and WotC representatives of all levels were not just shrugging off complaints about them, but sanctioning and joining in.
Any credibility WotC may have had to be considered sincere about wanting to change direction was thrown away with the contents of the Red Dragon Interview video, and will remain lost until there are very public firings and apologies.
That leaves you with the uneviable task of asking people to volunteer to be the next batch of "trolls" for WotC to empty its bowels upon.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 14, 2008 - 10:16PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 10, 2008
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WoTC is certainly welcome to charge whatever they like for material they produce.
Whether someone is willing to pay for that material is another matter.
Speaking for myself, I doubt I will be getting a DDI subscription any time soon.
I am old school. I like silly things like books, magazines and paper. While a search-able database if great for specific reference work, simply sitting on your porch and reading the books or the monthly magazines (now gone) is a pleasure. I prefer hard copy over pdf. Guess I am old fashioned.
The bonus tools seem simplistic at best and appear to be something many of the very bright posters on this board could have knocked off in an evening. Think I will pass.
Now, an advanced character generation would be something I might be interested in, especially if you can add custom feats and races. But that is not out yet, is it. Odd, since I would expect that to be the very first thing everyone would want. Neither is the table top or the visualizer.
So, to me, it doesn't matter that WoTC wants to charge for their work. It only matters if I, as a customer, want to pay the price they want for the services they currently offer. If the character generation was on-line and working to my satisfaction, I might have said yes to DDi. As it stands, I will have to say no.
I don't think I am alone in that.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2008 - 2:45AM
#28
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Date Joined:
Aug 13, 2007
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If the character generation was on-line and working to my satisfaction, I might have said yes to DDi. As it stands, I will have to say no.
I don't think I am alone in that.
#2
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5 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2008 - 5:48AM
#29
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Date Joined:
Apr 10, 2008
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I hate to say, but im halfway in Ovarwa's boat
Im in 4.0 for one reason. Living Forgotten Realms. and im only in LFR because of Living Greyhawk (the red-headed step child of D&D)
being able to bring a caracter to another table, and interact with other players I didnt know before hand is incredible! (and it not being a creepy fantasy one up contest) , then the LG inter-active's at cons really brought exitement into the game.. (details reserved for other topic)
also it meant knowing the rules and making shure your caracter followed them fairly. (cause table variation on critical aspects of the caracter kills fun faster then 200d6)
on that note,
Ive been exited about the D&Di tools since day one .. a database that promises enteries of core books, suplements and magazine enteries! and a caracter database where its checked against the rules for you (less how did you get that, what page is the ability on arguements)...
-I hope LFR caracters can be looked up so I can checkup on friends I met at cons.
buuuuut it been, what? almost 6 mo.? and thats still not online?
the bonus tools are only usefull for people who dont want to get really farmilair with the rules and havent made thier own tools. the redeeming quality?
the magazines.
although the magazines offers great content that is (somwhat) usefull for open and living games... the pull is the "playtest" classes. to be part of the "beta for the next 30-40$ supplement"
much like the first release core books were the beta for the new "nicely bound and erata updated" core books.-wich I will only buy if the *BAD WORD* ink doesnt smear. (WOTC, you printed cards for a living, GET A NEW PRINTER!)
-and that doesnt even get into the weak wording of abilitys/rules that cause endless arguments (im looking at you longsword wielding swordmage and you ever-changing armor class)
summary: I'll pay for it when the tools/new class playtest is out, but If I keep feeling like Im paying for a beta (and have the new books full of smears to prove it) im jumping ship for the next rpg with players in my area that comes along.
-note: with all the page smearing I would love ebook versions of the books.. but know that not gonna happen with the threat of piracy.
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5 years ago ::
Oct 15, 2008 - 6:43AM
#30
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Date Joined:
Jun 18, 2003
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@Samwise: Mudbunny is not WotC. He is a volunteer. I must have missed that last year, myself, because though I have seen many posts in the past few months from people who seem to be specifically looking for a fight (from both sides), I have not seen angry mobs hunting down 3.5 lovers and burning them at the torch. I have also seen WotC employees personally handling our problems (Solice and Randy Buehler, for instance), and I have seen the Mods crack down on offenders as of late (including myself!). I sincerely doubt WotC will do public executions and the like because some people feel miffed, although I do see a problem in that they (as a company) can't seem to bring themselves to look people in the eyes and apologize or admit all of their mistakes. They seem to think doing such a thing would make them suddenly "fallable," when in reality, it would simply make them more human. 
Resident Logic Cannon
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