Keep as is with the following text: "You may take this feat twice. The second time you take this feat you must select a class feature from the hybrid class you have which you did not select from the first time you selected this feat."
I suspect this would be more compact as: "You can select this feat twice. Each time you select this feat the chosen class feature must be from a different class."
Dragonsage wrote:
Full Class Feature heroic tier feat (or possibly paragon tier)
Prerequsite: You must be a hybrid class character
Select one of your hybrid class features. You now have the full class feature. You may not select this feat if both your hybrid classes cover the same party role.
It's not a bad fix. However, it becomes less needed the less restrictive the hybrid version of the target features is. With "one per round" limits it mostly just lets you mark and do bonus damage in the same round.
Dragonsage wrote:
Double-Leaders would only get one extra main heal power per encounter (as the hybrids show that they may only get one encounter usage that does not increase at level 16. (Someone posted on the forums, this thread?, that they errata'd that the one healer does not get 2 uses at level 16).
It actually works out to two extra heals per encounter at high levels, though only one more than a full character would get. One use from 2 hybrid versions is 2 uses. One hybrid use plus the three uses from a full class is four uses.
Dragonsage wrote:
Double-markers could easily be debated back and forth whether they would not be over-powered or not. Particulary if they make it so all actions triggered by a mark need an immediate action to use so double-markers can not get more than one mark reaction action each round.
Right now all but the Paladin have mark punishments that use an immediate reaction. As such, only paladin punishments can stack with others. That's why I favor keeping the immediate reaction requirement on hybrid Divine Challenge, but not lowering the challenge's damage.
Not yet, the group I play in is mid-adventure so I haven't gotten a good chance to rebuild. I might have a report this coming week if one of rangers in the group I run decides to rebuild, but that hasn't been pinned down.
However you might want check the multiclass threads (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1173124). Stuntman and DarkPaladin both mention playtesting some Hybrid builds. I mentioned you collecting playtest feedback so hopefully you can get some results from them. From the sound of it the hybrid rules are alright, with the weakest spot being lack of survivability due to low hp and armor.
Last call: does anyone have any reports from actual play-testing that ONLY USE THE RULES PRESENTED IN THE ARTICLE? (i.e. no hybrid bards, etc.)
I'd like to compile this all in an email soon and send it off.
Here's a repost of my playtest:
I decided to introduce and recommend the Hybrid Class play test rules to one of the players in my 4E campaign. He was rather unsatisfied with 4E because he was unable to make a character that resembled his character concept. This player in 3.5 played a rogue/wizard. He splashed a few levels of wizard to get some wizard spells that he liked such as many of the cantrips and some defensive wizard spells like shield and invisibility. He primarily likes to sneak around, pick locks, disarm traps and set traps. In combat he primarily stays in the back and used ranged weapon attacks.
When we started 4E, he was unable to really build a character that he liked. He was pretty much forced to choose between being roguish and not have access to cantrips or be a wizard and having to spend a bunch of feats (and many levels) to gain his roguish abilities. He eventually settled on being a ranger/rogue MC and forgo having access to cantrips.
Feats: Sneak of Shadows, Quick Draw, Lethal Hunter
Powers: Twin Strike, Nimble Strike, Hit and Run, Two-Fanged Strike, Hunter's Bear Trap, Unbalancing Parry.
The ranger class fit his concept quite well as he tends to hang back and attack at range. He primarily wields a repeating crossbow so he can take advantage of sneak attack from his rogue MC feat. Since he is at range all the time, he does not have very much opportunity to use sneak attack. It is not much of an issue since he can only SA once per encounter. Although he does carry daggers, he has not had the need to use it. His armour of choice is leather as he does not want penalties to his skill checks.
His character after rebuilding using hybrid classing is as follows:
This build is similar to his original build in that he has many roguish abilities (skills) and he is a ranged attacker. The advantage of the hybrid build is that he has access to the wizard cantrips which he really wants. Also, he has never used Nimble Strike, Hit and Run, or Unbalancing Parry. By replacing these with wizard powers, he ends up making better use of his power slots.
This build gives up the ability to use the hybrid Hunter's Quarry with non-ranger powers. This is not that much of an issue. Normally he either wants to attack many creatures (Scorching Burst), create bottlenecks (Cloud of Daggers) or concentrate damage on a single target (Twin Strike & HQ). He also has to spend feats on Armour Proficiency Leather and Ritual Caster.
After the rebuild, my friend felt that the hybrid option allows him to build a character much closer to his character concept than before. I found that he also used his wizard powers much more often than the powers he replaced. He did not miss any of the features his old build had other than Armour Proficiency (Leather) which he used a feat to gain back.
After one session of seeing a hybrid character in action, my impression is that the player enjoyed playing his character much more than before. He felt in 4E his is constrained in how he can build his character (compared to 3.5). The hybrid character option opens up more possibilities for him and makes him feel less constrained (although not entirely unconstrained.) In terms of player satisfaction, hybrid classing is a success in this case.
In terms of game balance, I feel that the ranger-wizard hybrid character is very strong. The main strength lies in the flexibility of the (archery) ranger-wizard hybrid. All powers are ranged powers. The option of attacking multiple targets or high damage to a single target allows this build to make significant contributions in many combat situations. Of all characters in my campaign, the ranger-wizard hybrid seems to make the best use of all his power slots. Other characters tend to have powers that they do not use very often. Also, this character performs either role of this hybrid (striker or controller) at range, so the lack of armour proficiencies and hit points is not that much of a disadvantage. A single feat can improve the AC enough to lessen this disadvantage even more.
The wizard powers tend to be very strong. Even with just the cantrips class feature, any ranged hybrid class with the wizard hybrid class would be a popular choice. I can see a laser cleric-wizard or warlock-wizard hybrid to be popular as the weaker defences of such hybrid combinations is less of an issue. There is a lot of synergy with these combinations even though they use different attack stats. The fact that the wizard uses Int as an attack stat helps the AC greatly. The wizard utility 2 spell, Shield, is also very strong in that it can provide a temporary upgrade in defences to negate a hit every now and then.
The Hybrid Talent feat seems very strong. Every hybrid class other than perhaps the archery ranger, has a class feature that is worth spending a feat on. I cannot see very many hybrid characters not taking this feat even though this particular player hasn't taken it yet. Since my impression of this hybrid character is that it is pretty strong compared to single classed, I feel it should remain as a feat instead of given for free (as some others have suggested). I really feel that giving Hybrid Talent for free would make it even more powerful that it is.
The hybrid version of Hunter's Quarry works well as is. The restriction of using ranger powers only for HQ damage still makes HQ very strong. The reason is that the hybrid HQ is still usable multiple times in an encounter. It is quite likely that if you want to deal high damage to a single target, you will not be using non-ranger powers. Although the restriction also excludes basic attacks from dealing HQ damage, this restriction is not very restricting. Even though other effects can allow the ranger to make a basic attack, it is likely that the ranger had already use a ranger power (like Twin Strike) and has already hit and dealt HQ damage. There is already known way to get the hybrid HQ to stack with other hybrid class features that deal extra damage. It is not necessary to also allow basic attacks to deal HQ damage.
In the future for this character, I can foresee a few issues. The first is the need for both a weapon (for ranger powers) and an implement (for wizard powers). Since the weapon this character uses is the repeating crossbow, it is quite likely that switching between the weapon and implement will be an issue. Switching weapons and implements require minor actions. Rangers and wizards already have abilities that require minor actions, so going back and forth while using the ranger-wizard abilities will limit what the character can do in a round. Some of this can be negated by taking Quick Draw or other feat that speeds up the drawing or stowing of items.
Another issue that I can see is the dependency on both Dex and Int. The build now has Dex 18 and Int 14. I can see that this character may have some issues hitting with wizard powers. Also, his Fortitude and Will will suffer at higher levels. In any case, some other hybrid or multiclass options face the same issues as well. Overall, the benefits will likely outweigh the disadvantages.
I am generally very satisfied with what I have seen in our first session with this particular hybrid class character. I look forward to seeing how it develops compared to the other single classed characters in my campaign.
One interesting thing is that the player in my game did not take the Hybrid Talent feat. I would suspect that he will take a familiar feat from Arcane Power and possibly Quick Draw and Lethal Hunter before considering Hybrid Talent. For all of those posters who feel that Hybrid Talent is a must have for all hybrid characters, this particular player seems to prove otherwise. Perhaps he will eventually, but there are many other feats that appeal to him more. This would lead me to believe that Hybrid Talent isn't as universally important and crucial as many believe.
I have seen some debate/concerns regarding if the Hybrid Talent feat can be taken more than once. I would take an educated guess and say it will remain as worded (only being able to take it once) or that it can be taken twice selecting 1 class feature from the class you did not select a class feature for the first time you took the feat. The reason for this is because most base classes receive 3 or 4 class features. The exceptions being warlock (who get 5); bard (who get 7); and the sorcerer (who get 1).
I am of the opinion that HT should remain as is where you can only take it once. I like the idea that if you are allowed to take it twice, you should only be able to gain a class feature from the other class.
Perhaps there should be a feat called Improved Hybrid Talent. It would be a paragon tier feat and requires HT as a prereq. When you take Improved Hybrid Talent, you can gain a class feature of the other class.
I am opposed to being able to gain class all class features fully from either class. The reason is that I feel if you want full class features, you should be single classed. Players should still have good reason to play a single classed character.
I decided to introduce and recommend the Hybrid Class play test rules to one of the players in my 4E campaign. He was rather unsatisfied with 4E because he was unable to make a character that resembled his character concept. This player in 3.5 played a rogue/wizard. He splashed a few levels of wizard to get some wizard spells that he liked such as many of the cantrips and some defensive wizard spells like shield and invisibility. He primarily likes to sneak around, pick locks, disarm traps and set traps. In combat he primarily stays in the back and used ranged weapon attacks.
When we started 4E, he was unable to really build a character that he liked. He was pretty much forced to choose between being roguish and not have access to cantrips or be a wizard and having to spend a bunch of feats (and many levels) to gain his roguish abilities. He eventually settled on being a ranger/rogue MC and forgo having access to cantrips.
Feats: Sneak of Shadows, Quick Draw, Lethal Hunter
Powers: Twin Strike, Nimble Strike, Hit and Run, Two-Fanged Strike, Hunter's Bear Trap, Unbalancing Parry.
The ranger class fit his concept quite well as he tends to hang back and attack at range. He primarily wields a repeating crossbow so he can take advantage of sneak attack from his rogue MC feat. Since he is at range all the time, he does not have very much opportunity to use sneak attack. It is not much of an issue since he can only SA once per encounter. Although he does carry daggers, he has not had the need to use it. His armour of choice is leather as he does not want penalties to his skill checks.
His character after rebuilding using hybrid classing is as follows:
This build is similar to his original build in that he has many roguish abilities (skills) and he is a ranged attacker. The advantage of the hybrid build is that he has access to the wizard cantrips which he really wants. Also, he has never used Nimble Strike, Hit and Run, or Unbalancing Parry. By replacing these with wizard powers, he ends up making better use of his power slots.
This build gives up the ability to use the hybrid Hunter's Quarry with non-ranger powers. This is not that much of an issue. Normally he either wants to attack many creatures (Scorching Burst), create bottlenecks (Cloud of Daggers) or concentrate damage on a single target (Twin Strike & HQ). He also has to spend feats on Armour Proficiency Leather and Ritual Caster.
After the rebuild, my friend felt that the hybrid option allows him to build a character much closer to his character concept than before. I found that he also used his wizard powers much more often than the powers he replaced. He did not miss any of the features his old build had other than Armour Proficiency (Leather) which he used a feat to gain back.
After one session of seeing a hybrid character in action, my impression is that the player enjoyed playing his character much more than before. He felt in 4E his is constrained in how he can build his character (compared to 3.5). The hybrid character option opens up more possibilities for him and makes him feel less constrained (although not entirely unconstrained.) In terms of player satisfaction, hybrid classing is a success in this case.
In terms of game balance, I feel that the ranger-wizard hybrid character is very strong. The main strength lies in the flexibility of the (archery) ranger-wizard hybrid. All powers are ranged powers. The option of attacking multiple targets or high damage to a single target allows this build to make significant contributions in many combat situations. Of all characters in my campaign, the ranger-wizard hybrid seems to make the best use of all his power slots. Other characters tend to have powers that they do not use very often. Also, this character performs either role of this hybrid (striker or controller) at range, so the lack of armour proficiencies and hit points is not that much of a disadvantage. A single feat can improve the AC enough to lessen this disadvantage even more.
The wizard powers tend to be very strong. Even with just the cantrips class feature, any ranged hybrid class with the wizard hybrid class would be a popular choice. I can see a laser cleric-wizard or warlock-wizard hybrid to be popular as the weaker defences of such hybrid combinations is less of an issue. There is a lot of synergy with these combinations even though they use different attack stats. The fact that the wizard uses Int as an attack stat helps the AC greatly. The wizard utility 2 spell, Shield, is also very strong in that it can provide a temporary upgrade in defences to negate a hit every now and then.
The Hybrid Talent feat seems very strong. Every hybrid class other than perhaps the archery ranger, has a class feature that is worth spending a feat on. I cannot see very many hybrid characters not taking this feat even though this particular player hasn't taken it yet. Since my impression of this hybrid character is that it is pretty strong compared to single classed, I feel it should remain as a feat instead of given for free (as some others have suggested). I really feel that giving Hybrid Talent for free would make it even more powerful that it is.
The hybrid version of Hunter's Quarry works well as is. The restriction of using ranger powers only for HQ damage still makes HQ very strong. The reason is that the hybrid HQ is still usable multiple times in an encounter. It is quite likely that if you want to deal high damage to a single target, you will not be using non-ranger powers. Although the restriction also excludes basic attacks from dealing HQ damage, this restriction is not very restricting. Even though other effects can allow the ranger to make a basic attack, it is likely that the ranger had already use a ranger power (like Twin Strike) and has already hit and dealt HQ damage. There is already known way to get the hybrid HQ to stack with other hybrid class features that deal extra damage. It is not necessary to also allow basic attacks to deal HQ damage.
In the future for this character, I can foresee a few issues. The first is the need for both a weapon (for ranger powers) and an implement (for wizard powers). Since the weapon this character uses is the repeating crossbow, it is quite likely that switching between the weapon and implement will be an issue. Switching weapons and implements require minor actions. Rangers and wizards already have abilities that require minor actions, so going back and forth while using the ranger-wizard abilities will limit what the character can do in a round. Some of this can be negated by taking Quick Draw or other feat that speeds up the drawing or stowing of items.
Another issue that I can see is the dependency on both Dex and Int. The build now has Dex 18 and Int 14. I can see that this character may have some issues hitting with wizard powers. Also, his Fortitude and Will will suffer at higher levels. In any case, some other hybrid or multiclass options face the same issues as well. Overall, the benefits will likely outweigh the disadvantages.
I am generally very satisfied with what I have seen in our first session with this particular hybrid class character. I look forward to seeing how it develops compared to the other single classed characters in my campaign.
Thank you very much. By the way, are you or your player aware that he can switch his bow and implement with one minor action (instead of two) by using mage hand?
Also, though HQ works fine for this character, I think the main complaint about hybrid HQ and SA is that they can be abused with certain power/class combos, and therefore need to be approached from a different angle.
I think the hybrid mark abilities are the only hybrid features that people are really concerned about being too weak/unusable. (The other main complaint is low survivability - which is much less of an issue for ranged hybrids, but is a major problem for melee hybrids.)
By the way, are you or your player aware that he can switch his bow and implement with one minor action (instead of two) by using mage hand?
You would still need to use a minor action to cast or sustain the hand, so you still end up using two minor actions. So far this is not an issue because this character does not have a magical implement or does he have the Implement Mastery feature that requires a mundain one.
Also, though HQ works fine for this character, I think the main complaint about hybrid HQ and SA is that they can be abused with certain power/class combos, and therefore need to be approached from a different angle.
I've seen the discussions regarding minor action attack powers that can allow you to stack both HQ and SA in the same turn. Most likely this will add the HQ damage which is d6 (or d8 with a feat). If you compare it with other encounter powers, they will be doing [W] damage which is likely going to be a d8. Other encounter powers will likely give an extra [W] damage which is roughly HQ damage at heroic tier. This does go up at higher tiers, but then you would have other encounter powers that deal higher multiples of [W] damage.
The stacking of HQ and SA would likely burn out your encounter powers more quickly. Although it allows a round or two of this stacking, I'm not entirely convinced that it would be a big issue. You may take out the first big guy, but if there are others, you may be out of encounter powers by then. I would expect that against solos, you get a good head start on the damage side. Perhaps against multiple foes, the lower survivability may balance this out.
I think the hybrid mark abilities are the only hybrid features that people are really concerned about being too weak/unusable. (The other main complaint is low survivability - which is much less of an issue for ranged hybrids, but is a major problem for melee hybrids.)
I'm not overly concerned about the limited marking abilities of hybrid defenders. I see it simply as the cost for more versatility. Your defender-striker hybrid may not be able to mark as well as a single-classed defender, but you have the option to deal more damage than a SC defender. A SC defender just marks really well and has no option to deal additional damage.
I do see the potential problems of low survivability for melee hybrids. Unlike multiclassed characters, hybrids have at-wills and more melee powers than some multiclass combos. You want to at least engage in melee enough to make use of your melee hybrids. In order to do this, you need both hit points and defences. If the other hybrid class is weak in hit points and defences, it makes it really difficult for your melee half to feel very useful.
Most hybrids with few armour proficiencies do have the benefit of having stat bonuses to AC. The wizard and rogue for instance generally have high Int or Dex which improves their AC in light armour. Spending a feat or more may improve your AC enough to engage in melee at least temporarily.
The hybrid character in my game is not a melee type (although he did take an armour proficiency feat). What I would like to see is someone who tests out a hybrid fighter/wizard and see how you manage to play such a character. I just have the feeling that there is a way to do this, but you really have to pick your spots in combat and likely have to add an armour proficiency feat or two.
An Elf Hybrid Wizard/Rogue/Flying Blade adept focusing on light blades and accuracy (with wand of accuracy hybrid talented).
A Longtooth Shifter Ranger/Rogue/Pack Runner focusing on mobility and on paired attacking powers.
A Dragonborn Cleric/Paladin MC Fighter Justicar focusing on being a decent leader and being moderately sticky.
I put them up against a level appropriate encounter of 4 Ogre Thugs, 2 Mezzodemons, and 2 Drow Warriors.
It went well, with the group being able to cover each other's weaknesses fairly well, and expending a moderate amount of resources (probably around 30%) to take care of the foes present. That being said, here are some of my impressions from the fight.
1. It's a pain in the ass not being able to mark or recieve sneak attack damage from BA's. The Warlock had to charge early on to get into melee quickly, and it would have benefited everyone if he had been able to do so. My suggestion: For hybrid features say that they only apply to class powers, the powers of class specific paragon paths, paths requiring a the same role as the class the feature is from, non-specific paragon paths and ABAs (actual basic attacks, not powers that may be used as such). If two or more hybrid features could affect a single attack, choose one to apply. This would prevent abuse from minor-action attacks, allow fighters and pally's to mark on a charge or at range, and make hybrid characters more versatile without restricting them overly.
2. Heavy armor using classes that hybridize themselves with light armor classes are penalized unfairly. I really noticed this when I tried to make the tiefling warlock into a Hybrid Wiz/Ftr. It ate up most of his feats. [b]Suggestion: Allow hybrids to purchase armor proficency feats without considering prerequisites, as long as one of their hybrid classes would have been proficient with it. This would solve hybrid AC issues, and would still include the feat tax-plus there are probably relatively few people who would choose say, chainmail armor for a wizard/fighter when you could get roughly the same AC with high intelligence and leather armor, so it doesn't cause balance issues.[/b]
3. Hybrid Classes feel like true "jacks of all trades, masters of none" This is an excellent thing, as it captures the feel of someone who trains simultaneously in differing fields and forces players to think about how their abilities build off of one another. I had great fun, for example thinking about how I could use my wizard spells to set up combat advantage for myself and create distractions so I could hide. But none of the combinations that I played really felt underpowered.
4. Defender/Controllers are rather fragile, unless they load up on THP The warlock/fighter was fairly durable, but that was only because of crushing surge, the infernal pact, toughness, and dark one's favor. A wizard/fighter would have been out of luck. Suggestion:Simply add the level 1 HP of the two classes together and divide by 2, then round down and add con mod for the first level HP, then average healing surges and HP by level. It's simple, it's easy and it makes fighters feel a wee bit more like fighters while still causing them to not be as sturdy as true defenders.
By and large though, you guys did an amazing job on the hybrid rules-kudos to you for making jacks and jills of all trades that actually work!
You know, I'm ok with the on HTF thing. You should have to sacrifice to dabble in two classes and should never actually be able to achieve both or either class in its entirety.
