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Yes, it does say, take your game online.

But the ads don't simply say, online. The first sentence says:

[INDENT]With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools, DDi will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. [/INDENT]
That's just as important as the second sentence. If you are going to make a claim that they advertised and failed to live up to ad, you should take the ad as a whole.

And as a whole the ad does not simply talk about the VTT and CV.

That's my point. They failed to bring the game table to reality so far. But they have not failed to bring DDi to reality, and the ad is for DDi.

Some people are so focused on just the VTT, they aren't looking at what else was planned for, and saying they lied and failed and more.

Yes, they failed to bring every single thing they hoped for to DDi. That does not equal they failed to bring us DDi.

And i agree mudbunny, having other tools in place is goign to make the game table more useful. As I recall, part of it was that you can make your own dungeons and import them into the game table.

If you can't do that, well, that just means premade dungeons by WoTC. The Game Table suddenly has less appeal to me, since I don't run just their modules.

I find it absurd that people can't or won't accept that some people are upset about the way things went.

When I first heard about 4e, I thought 'Neat, but I won't be able to play.'. I don't have enough time or friends in the area that will play. But then my friend from oversees said 'No! We can play online! They are releasing a virtual table top! It will even have a feature to recruit people who aren't in a campaign.' So yes, when that did emerge I was disappointed, but hopeful that it would be out soon. I bought the PHB in anticipation, so I could learn the game and be ready. At this point, I am not hopeful. And I have not, and will not, buy another book until such point as it's ready.

I'm not mad, I'm just sad. Sad that I can't play 4e because of poor planning and implementation on WOTC's part. You raised my hopes and dashed them quite spectacularly. And at this point, I have no expectation that the VTT will ever be released, despite what anyone says. The lack of foresight shown so far makes me doubt that the software team and their management can get their acts together enough to produce what they were supposed to have done over a year ago.

superdave wrote:

I find it absurd that people can't or won't accept that some people are upset about the way things went.

When I first heard about 4e, I thought 'Neat, but I won't be able to play.'. I don't have enough time or friends in the area that will play. But then my friend from oversees said 'No! We can play online! They are releasing a virtual table top! It will even have a feature to recruit people who aren't in a campaign.' So yes, when that did emerge I was disappointed, but hopeful that it would be out soon. I bought the PHB in anticipation, so I could learn the game and be ready. At this point, I am not hopeful. And I have not, and will not, buy another book until such point as it's ready.

I'm not mad, I'm just sad. Sad that I can't play 4e because of poor planning and implementation on WOTC's part. You raised my hopes and dashed them quite spectacularly. And at this point, I have no expectation that the VTT will ever be released, despite what anyone says. The lack of foresight shown so far makes me doubt that the software team and their management can get their acts together enough to produce what they were supposed to have done over a year ago.

I don't know if you are including me in that. I've stated they can be upset, and they should exspress it.

But calling WoTC liars and dishonest is going to far. That's not feedback, that's insults.

What does that serve?

Dane_McArdy wrote:

I don't know if you are including me in that. I've stated they can be upset, and they should exspress it.

But calling WoTC liars and dishonest is going to far. That's not feedback, that's insults.

What does that serve?

It serves to express their anger in an outlet that does the least harm. Better they express it with words through a message board than a brick through WOTC's window.

I don't believe this is caused by any sort of dishonesty, but rather by incompetency on all levels. Coding, management, marketing, PR. From the start, it doesn't seem like there was a single move they made right the first time.

superdave wrote:

It serves to express their anger in an outlet that does the least harm. Better they express it with words through a message board than a brick through WOTC's window.

I don't believe this is caused by any sort of dishonesty, but rather by incompetency on all levels. Coding, management, marketing, PR. From the start, it doesn't seem like there was a single move they made right the first time.

Mature people can express thier anger without insults. Insults do nothing more then create communication barriers between anyone.



If the forums are what people are using to give feedback, imagine having to wade through posts that are basically nothing more then insults. How many posts are you willing to read calling the company you work for and believe in, liars and dishonest?

More so, that you know for a fact the company wasn't dishonest, and had to make a choice that was going to upset fans that, you really don't want to upset.

Now imagine being called incompetent at your job because the company couldn't deliver on part of a plan. More so when you know that there were factors you can't talk about that caused issues.

I seriously doubt that WoTC hires anyone that isn't a fan and more then thrilled to be working for them. I'm sure that there are people who work there that put in more then 40 hours a week, more then 5 days a week.

Just think about the people that would want to work at WoTC. Do anyone really think it's a bunch of game hating slackers?

I know lots of people at DC comics and Marvel comics. Most of them want to work in editorial, you know editing the comics they love. Most of them actually work in non-creative jobs, such as contracts, advertising, licensing. Some have worked for a few years. They all work long hard hours when needed.

All in the hope they get into editorial some day.

That's how it is with these companies. The people who work there, they really want to work there.

So man, cut them some slack. I bet they put in longer weeks then most of us do. And it's certainly not because they are slackers or incompetent.

superdave wrote:

I don't believe this is caused by any sort of dishonesty, but rather by incompetency on all levels. Coding, management, marketing, PR. From the start, it doesn't seem like there was a single move they made right the first time.

Given the situation as it was with Gleemax and the outsourced work on the DDI prior to it being worked on internally, and even after that point the handling of the situation by management, incompetency was involved in various places on a spectacular level. The current developers I'd cut some serious slack though, given what they have to do, and what resources they're being given. Management I would not be so kind towards however.

HEY! Don't take out my example!

Grrrrrrr!

Dane_McArdy wrote:

HEY! Don't take out my example!

Grrrrrrr!

While I thought the example was reasonable, there's no leeway in the rules here with regard to that kind of thing.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

Now imagine being called incompetent at your job because the company couldn't deliver on part of a plan. More so when you know that there were factors you can't talk about that caused issues.

I seriously doubt that WoTC hires anyone that isn't a fan and more then thrilled to be working for them. I'm sure that there are people who work there that put in more then 40 hours a week, more then 5 days a week.

So man, cut them some slack. I bet they put in longer weeks then most of us do. And it's certainly not because they are slackers or incompetent.

1) Part of a plan? More like the whole DDI plan. Not a single piece of software was ready at launch, when the plan was that it all would be.

2) Factors that caused issues? Yes, I suppose that incompetency is a factor.

3) Hiring fans is great. But have you ever read fanfics? Fans may certainly have a love of what they do. That doesn't mean they can effectively do the job at the same level of someone with more training. I run a swimming lesson program with over 900 kids/week and a staff of about 70. Just because someone loves to swim, doesn't mean they can effectively work with children. And just because someone loves working with children doesn't mean they can teach them to swim. Hiring the right staff, who can do the job AND who want to do the job, is essential, and if that didn't happen, it was due to incompetency of the hiring staff.

4) The fact is, somewhere down the line, bad decisions were made. Whether it was in the hiring, the firing, time management, false reporting of progress to management, the lack of managerial oversight. Something Went Wrong. In fact, a lot of somethings went wrong. And to say 'Oh, this stuff happens' invites it to happen again and again.

superdave wrote:

I find it absurd that people can't or won't accept that some people are upset about the way things went.

I have no problem with people being upset, or more specifically disappointed, frustrated, annoyed or irritated. It's those people who are offended that need to take a close look at themselves, however.

As far as DDI is concerned, the only people to whom WotC actually owes anything to are those who have already signed up, and most of us seem quite happy with what we have paid for, even if we'd like to have more. An explicit apology for poor planning might be nice too, but considering that every attempt at that thus far brings a chorus of "It's not nearly good enough!", I'm not surprised that they're circumspect.

seTiny wrote:

So out of a population size of 6 million to get a confidence interval of:

+/-4, the sample size would have to be about 600.
+/-3, the sample size would have to be about 1067
+/-2, the sample size would have to be about 2400

That is nice if the sample is random and you want a 90 percent confidence level, however neither occurs.
The survey itself was not random, further the survey was reactive to answers as opposed to static. As far as it goes it requested text feed back (for those that did not get dumped quickly) that was not reported on.

The company reported what results they wanted to report, based on what they admit was a flawed survey.

as i stated before: you can only ever trust statistics where there are not only results posted, but also the way how they came to those results. everything else is just someone posting an ad or a decision - nothing else.

give me any statistical raw data, and i can prove EVERYTHING you want me to. that's how many politicians are using statistics anyway.

Serious suggestion - if you want to see the VTT more quickly, either:

(1) Offer to invest $200k or so to fund its development.

(2) Organise a petition of 5-10k users who are either current DDI subscribers or have spent at least $US50 on D&D in the last 6 months, who are willing to sign that they would prefer to see the VTT over the campaign builder and pay at least (say) $US15 a month for a DDI subscription containing it.

(3) Collect $US20 from each of said signatories in (2) and use the money to do (1).

Don't quibble and moan about the survey; provide a compelling business case to provide you with what you want.

The same situation occurs for us Mac users. We'd much rather the non-web tools had Mac support, and lack of it might mean we don't buy the "full" DDI if/when the advanced tools are available. But all we can do is suggest that it's financially worth it for WotC to go cross-platform. DDI is not an essential service, and they don't owe us a product, even if we would be willing to pay for it. Grumping and moaning about us being an aggrieved party and unfairly treated just makes us sound like whiners.

WolfStar76 wrote:

It would be selective if they hand-chose who took the survey.

Instead the survey was offered to a random sampling of visitors to D&D related sites (WotC, ENWorld being the two known major sites).

No.

This was a self-selected survey by definition.

I'll freely admit I didn't bother taking the survey. After the reports that if you answered 'wrong' you didn't get asked more questions I decided it wasn't going to give any results worth paying attention to. If it'd been a straight survey without multiple paths I'd be a lot more inclined to have given some feedback through it.

Since the reported cutout was not playing D&D, and I'm not currently playing, either I'd give honest answers and get booted, or I'd lie, give my opinions, but since I was lying to the survey, what would my input have been worth?

Dane_McArdy wrote:

Yes, it does say, take your game online.

But the ads don't simply say, online. The first sentence says:

[INDENT]With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools, DDi will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. [/INDENT]
That's just as important as the second sentence. If you are going to make a claim that they advertised and failed to live up to ad, you should take the ad as a whole.

And as a whole the ad does not simply talk about the VTT and CV.

That's my point. They failed to bring the game table to reality so far. But they have not failed to bring DDi to reality, and the ad is for DDi.

Some people are so focused on just the VTT, they aren't looking at what else was planned for, and saying they lied and failed and more.

Yes, they failed to bring every single thing they hoped for to DDi. That does not equal they failed to bring us DDi.

And i agree mudbunny, having other tools in place is goign to make the game table more useful. As I recall, part of it was that you can make your own dungeons and import them into the game table.

If you can't do that, well, that just means premade dungeons by WoTC. The Game Table suddenly has less appeal to me, since I don't run just their modules.

That's an absurd statement. Just look at the ad, it's presented on a computer, a laptop. The tag line is highlighting the use of PCs, the text informs that you can game online. The (although fake) image on the PC is of a Dungeon map with virtual miniatures on it.

These extreme excuses are on par with the idiots who defend using pirated versions of .PDFs since due to the law in certain regions, once a document has entered their domain, you can re-label it and thereby circumvent copyright claiming some obscure version of "fair use". In my book that is still not right.

I'm aware neither is technically against the law and moral ethics are as flexible as the human claiming to have them. I still hold that not delivering on publically advertised products and not paying the original developer is something neither party can really profit from in the long run.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

All the while not having to hold yourself to any standard in the relationship between you and a company. Meaning, say whatever you want to get back at company you think has wronged you, without facts, because what can they do back to you? Nothing.

Although this is not what I am doing. I don't say whatever I want. In the end of the day, I have to make a decision to part with my money or not. Part of that decision for me is, what am I buying, is the company that I am giving my money to giving me value, am I rewarding a company that I do not feel should be rewarded.

Now, with WotC, I break that down into 2 parts: the book side, and the digital side.

Is it really so hard to understand that WotC has had these same problems for 10 years now on the digital side, that some of us should call them out and tell them they are not doing a good job? They had learned, but they fired the guy who was regularly updating the community after they started the pay service.

You cannot please everyone. There will be people who complain about the length of time that things have taken. This is the price of doing business.

At this point in time, when the Campagn Manager comes out, then I will believe them. Why should I, as a customer that had waited for the Character Generator from the back of the 3.0 books, then E-Tools and all of the problems with that and what it eventually became, and now these tools, believe them otherwise?

In my eyes, they don't have a great track record in this regard. With all the talk in beginning of the 4E announcement, and what they showed, I was led to believe they turned it around. Looks like they didn't from where I am standing.

Now, on the book side of things, I have purchased a bunch of stuff based on the previews they have given me. They have it together on that side of the company. I hope, someday, that WotC cares enough about the digital side to give it the same resources and respect.

Nevermind, after I posted, I decided, I don't need to be part of this conversation anymore.

Oh well. Came to check on the status of the VTT and it's been all but, cancelled for now. I was going to get the DDI subscription just for the table. I mean what's the point of all the other tools without the VTT, I have found plenty of Free tools just as good as theirs but, the VTT had me excited, with it's apperant ease of use compared to the free stuff out there.

Oh well guess I'll just stick with tabletop for now. Maybe I'll check back on the development of the vtt when 5th edition comes out, hopefully by then it'll be done.

Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.

Fervos wrote:

Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.

WotC is aware that it is a possibility. I am sure it is one of the things that they considered when they made the decision to push back the release of the VTT.

Well crap. I suppose a campaign application is better than no application but I'm another vote in the "why no VTT application" column.

Ya'know what'd be great...the ability to cut and paste into it (the campaign app) from .pdf files!

mudbunny wrote:

WotC is aware that it is a possibility. I am sure it is one of the things that they considered when they made the decision to push back the release of the VTT.

As much you might want to put positive spin on it in WotC's favor, I very much doubt it was a carefully considered, planned decision to "push back the release" of the VTT. I say that having spoken with one of the developers in detail about the mess that led up to the current situation. I wouldn't blame the in-house team at all, but management seriously made some mistakes, and outsourcing didn't really work out for them, to say the least.

Shemeska the Marauder wrote:

As much you might want to put positive spin on it in WotC's favor, I very much doubt it was a carefully considered, planned decision to "push back the release" of the VTT. I say that having spoken with one of the developers in detail about the mess that led up to the current situation.

If you are gonna say that, spill all the beans.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

If you are gonna say that, spill all the beans.

I'm not a fan of 4e, but I'd rather someone not lose their job if I did.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

If you are gonna say that, spill all the beans.

I have to agree with Shemeska, outing a source can cause worst things to happen. It clearly is up to you to trust statements made, that is for you to decide.

I have no inside source, what I do see is that indeed they outsourced to the wrong company. That someone in management and/or PR over promised.

That indeed the push back of release of anything was not planned.

Heck the plan was to collect twice as much money from a greater pool of people.

With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.


After all, plans change so its OK, right?

KM wrote:

With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.


After all, plans change so its OK, right?

It's totally OK!

Plans do change. Have fun, Pathfinder offers a lot of great stuff.

BTW, WoTC understands that some people will do this. If all that stuff had happened like they wanted, some people would have still left. They might have left because DnD didn't feel like the game they grew up with.

People leave and come all the time for many reasons.


Have fun

KM wrote:

With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.


After all, plans change so its OK, right?

Unless you're in the pool of people who "can't" play unless they play online I don't see the connection/reason for such a reaction - however I'm with Dane.

Yes, that's fully ok. If you aren't getting what you want from 4E, and if the change in plans from WotC means that you won't be getting what you want until the plan is completed - by all means, play what you do enjoy.

Of course, to the best of my knowledge Pathfinder doesn't have a Character Builder, Visualizer, or Game Table either.

KM wrote:

With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.


After all, plans change so its OK, right?

Yup.

People change games that they play all the time.

While I am sure that WotC would prefer that you not change, I am also sure that they realize and accept that they can't please all the people all the time. Some of the decisions they make will annoy some people and will cause them to change systems that they play.

It is a part of business.

Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.

However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?

gabe1k wrote:

However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?

(I am not a lawyer)

Other than a couple of monsters which are considered WotC IP (mind flayers, beholders) I don't think that it would be a problem. Kobolds, trolls, elves, dragons, zombies, vampires are monsters all have a long history in human folklore.

But then you are getting into the complexities of law. Thus, the answer can be either phrased as "No, unless they do..." or "Yes, but they can always..."

gabe1k wrote:

However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?

ONLY if they used DnD materials. For example they can't own orcs. But beholders and mindflayers yes.

gabe1k wrote:

However, if some company did come out with a decent 3D VTT and used 3D figures to represent D&D monsters, wouldn't they get in trouble with WoTC?

I don't think WotC can bust some other company's chops for creating a 3D virtual table top. They could, of course, go after somebody for using WotC's intellectual property (probably images, "owned names" or whatever, and stuff like that) and/or representing themselves as the D&D virtual tabletop program.

But otherwise, unless they patented it, the idea of a 3D virtual tabletop doesn't belong to WotC.

The ninja-bunny strikes again.

mudbunny wrote:

The ninja-bunny strikes again.

Easy to do when you can control the forums.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

Easy to do when you can control the forums.

I don't control the forums any more than you guys do.

mudbunny wrote:

I don't control the forums any more than you guys do.

LOL

Dane_McArdy wrote:

LOL

He isn't being facetous.

As VCLs we have ZERO direct control over the forums.

When we want to move/sticky/close/etc a thread we have to make a post to the ORCs requesting they do so for us.

All we get for being VCLs is a fancy-schmancy title, a few headaches, and Custom Avatars.

Oh, and a slightly larger PM inbox for all our groupies.

Unfortunately, WotC doesn't supply the groupies.

Wow at all the dairy aire smooching and vitriol in this thread.

No one is going to change anyone else’s opinion that they were wronged or that Wizards can do no wrong. 

So while the announcement is disappointing, it is not earth ending.

So instead of valuing the DDI tools as to what they might offer, you should value them at what they currently offer and then decide if it is worth it to you.

While the allure of what could have been surely snared some customers, most will learn not to go following the sirens call next time.

KM wrote:

With WOTC totally going back on them saying they would put out the character maker, viewer, dungeon maker, and VTT in that order back in one of the digital insider articles, I may have to go back to my FLGS and sell al my 4th ed stuff and go with pathfinder.
Same with the other 5 people in my gaming group.


After all, plans change so its OK, right?

Sure.

What, were you expecting everyone to call you a bad person for wanting to play a different game?

ItaraKoturo wrote:

Sure.

What, were you expecting everyone to call you a bad person for wanting to play a different game?

Well, yeah.

ItaraKoturo wrote:

Sure.

What, were you expecting everyone to call you a bad person for wanting to play a different game?

I'm trying to see how many people will try and make me stay and drink the kool aid.

KM wrote:

I'm trying to see how many people will try and make me stay and drink the kool aid.

DRINK IT!

My anti virus went off when I tryed to click it.

It's an animated picture of the Kool-aid Man.

Fervos wrote:

Who knows some other rpg company may just beat wotc to the punchline with a vtt. that'd be a laugh.

It's not like a VTT is a particularly unique product. Go look at the "digital" boards for a long list of them. And it doesn't take much effort to customise most for D&D.

Heck, if you want 3D, people have used Neverwinter Nights as a VTT in all but name for several years now.

But building a D&D campaign manager that ties directly into the WotC IP and digital data? That's something where controlling the IP and direct access can make a huge difference.

I don't think WotC would shed too many tears if someone made a 3D D&D compatible VTT.

KM wrote:

My anti virus went off when I tryed to click it.

I'm pretty sure there are no virus's.

I would like to point out that they have been hyping the VTT and CV for quite some time now. They showed them off at GenCon, and they've been shilling for them in their Dungeon and Dragon articles (I think there was a whole "Confessions of" article about the character visualizer). If some people are ticked off that these things are now "back burner" (which isn't a good sign giving the already slow progress they were apparently in before) then WotC has no one to blame but themselves. If you hype something mercilessly and then bait and switch, its only natural that some people are gonna moan about it. WotC created the hype.

Those of us who are displeased with this change in priorities have a legitimate grievance. Yes, some people are grumps who like to complain about everything, but some of us are very rational people with very rational objections. I want the tools I was hyped up about. I want to see that they can deliver quality products, not abandon them when they get hard to finish.

I think the Campaign Tools are a great idea. I voted for them as a feature I'd like to see. I didn't mean at the expense of the other things I thought were just around the corner. I think WotC deserves any grief they are getting from disgruntled customers, and I think those of you who are being hostile to the people venting need to realize this.

Dazmiuth wrote:

It is not the consumer's fault that we are upset about DDI. I've said this before, and I will say it again(in fact, I reposted this post before), the consumers did not advertise these programs and services, WotC did. WotC advertised it as a major selling point of the system. For many of us, that selling point is what caused us to purchase the game. If many of you don't remember, WotC offerred the following glimpse at 4th edition prior to the books being released, pay attention to the last two clips:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_e5wAUwdmM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=slLNNbcg … re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_aLXuMb6 … re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uj-9vMYG … re=related

I remember how pumped up I got thinking about playing online with my friends. We are all busy irl with family and professional responsibilities and the VTT was going to make getting together for a game much easier.

Then, the core books come out and if you don't remember, the ad's in the back say the following:

"Combat Improves When You Add A Mouse" Bring even more to your game table with D&D Insider. With quick access to exclusive material and digital tools D&DI will help enhance every aspect of your tabletop game. And, with D&DI, you can take your game online, so you can play with friends anywhere-wherever they live, wherever you go.


Of course we all remember that DDI was not available upon the release of the books, but they did have lots of advertisements for it. They finally released DDI which was composed of Dungeon and Dragon magazines, the compendium, and some bonus tools.

At that point they had the words COMING SOON! written above the CB, DB, CV, and VTT. WotC came out and said, "hey everyone, we know we don't have a lot of the stuff we promised, but if you sign up now we will lock in your billing price for the remainder of your subscription, even when all the other tools come out."

A lot of people are probably in the same boat as me and thought: "You know, I really am not interested in the E-Zines and I really want DDI mainly for the VTT, but hey, it says coming soon and surely the CB,VTT,CV,DB will be out before too long, it says so right on the advertisement. I might as well buy it now."

One could argue that it was deceptive business practice. They advertised advertised advertised, got people to subscribe, then took all of it down from the site and are now saying "we have decided to work on other projects at this time."

Most of us who are upset have very valid reasons. I have no major complaints about the CB or 4th edition in general. However, I have invested thousands of dollars in D&D over the years and I feel tricked into purchasing 4th edition and subscribing to DDI.

My gaming friends are spread all over the country and we are all busy irl. The VTT was the reason we all converted to 4th edition. I know there are alternate online table-tops out there, and we will gladly use them. But we all spent money to get a product that was advertised that never came into fruition.

I appreciate the head's up from WotC that the VTT has been canned, but we could have used that information a few months ago. An apology would be nice.

This. Very much this. It was a classic bait and switch. And the only reason they released the survey results was the give themselves a cover of legitimacy when making the switch. Think about it, how many times in the past has WotC released the results of a survey? I can't think of the last time I saw that.

I'm not one of these "ZOMG IM QUITTING 4E FOREVER!!!1!!!!11!!!eleven!!" folks, but I am very disappointed with this, and I think its only natural, considering the product I thought I was purchasing versus the "new direction" they are taking. I haven't canceled my subscription yet, but I am considering it.

I'm just wondering. Has anybody heard of the Make a Wish Foundation that grants wishes to diing children? Here's a hypothetical situation: Suppose there's a child who's been given 3-6 months to live makes contact with MWF and his/her wish is to see the VTT (and/or other promised tools) completed and be able to use it before they die. The question would be would WOTC be able to fulfill this child's wish (of course funded by MWF)?

Astromath wrote:

The question would be would WOTC be able to fulfill this child's wish (of course funded by MWF)?

Wow. That's...ghoulish.

please: don't resort to killing children in order to get the products you want. :D

I don't advocate killing children to get what I want. It is so completely unethical. However, MWF does do good work. They even got Upper Deck to create a Yu-Gi-Oh card specifically for a diing child. Here's an interesting fact: the child's illness went into remission and is still alive. But that's going too far off-topic. What I did was put forward a hypothetical situation. I'd like to see WOTC's response to this hypothetical situation. I'll even be satisfied with a hypothetical response.

Astromath wrote:

I don't advocate killing children to get what I want. It is so completely unethical. However, MWF does do good work. They even got Upper Deck to create a Yu-Gi-Oh card specifically for a diing child. Here's an interesting fact: the child's illness went into remission and is still alive. But that's going too far off-topic. What I did was put forward a hypothetical situation. I'd like to see WOTC's response to this hypothetical situation. I'll even be satisfied with a hypothetical response.

Why would they ever answer a question like that? It's in poor taste, quite frankly.

Hypothetical questions often end up being a waste of time. And often are meant as a way to trap someone, based on a non reality.

Why not ask WoTC something more practical, like would they switch back to working on the VTT, if another company would be willing to partner with them and carry some of the finacial burden and work responisiblity.

Or even better yet, how about all the people that have said they can do better, go volunteer to work on it for free? The boards are certainly full of people like that.

Astromath wrote:

I don't advocate killing children to get what I want. It is so completely unethical. However, MWF does do good work. They even got Upper Deck to create a Yu-Gi-Oh card specifically for a diing child. Here's an interesting fact: the child's illness went into remission and is still alive. But that's going too far off-topic. What I did was put forward a hypothetical situation. I'd like to see WOTC's response to this hypothetical situation. I'll even be satisfied with a hypothetical response.

::continue derailment::

Hypothetically? I'd love to say we'd create a D&D tool so epic and so powerful that this poor unfortunate kid's ailment would retreat in fear of it. However, due to the high tech nature of such a tool, he/she would be the only one who would be able to see and interact with the afore-mentioned tool

Seriously though - My heart goes out to any child (and their families) who has a deadly illness, and this isn't something that we should make light of. There's no way we could posit what we would do in such a situation. Lets try to keep things a bit more on topic than this in the future guys.

::end derailment::

Consider myself chastised.

It seems to me that the scope of DDI is being reduced. I'm not suprised by this.

I ran into a WotC employee at PAX08 in an elevator while leaving the convention. I was wearing a D&D related shirt and he asked if I had checked out the character generator. I said I had and I was then honest with him. I told him it was much better than I had expected. And I meant it.

I've seen this company try to put out tools with this brand before and it didn't really end well. Let us all just be greatful that they managed to get the character generator working before they dropped the ball. At least they delivered on something. Anything else I see out of DDI will be a plesant suprise.

It just seems like the magazine subscriptions weren't enough to pay the developer bills so the customer is getting stuck with a diminished product.

FalconGK81 wrote:

This. Very much this. It was a classic bait and switch.

The above individual has a very mistaken idea of what, exactly, a bait and switch is.

A bait and switch occurs when a company advertises a product at a very low price, lures the customer in, and then is revealed to not actually offer the advertised product. Instead, they try to sell you a substitute product for a higher price.

What WotC did was miss a release date on a portion of their package, and to make up for that decided to offer their reduced package for a reduced price. This is pretty much exactly not what a bait and switch is.

Beware those people who try and tell you that WotC is pulling a bait and switch. They are speaking from ignorance, malice, bitterness, or some combination of the three.

ItaraKoturo wrote:

Beware those people who try and tell you that WotC is pulling a bait and switch. They are speaking from ignorance, malice, bitterness, or some combination of the three.

I would say that those people are just as informative as the fanboys, if not more so. It lets me know that the company in question has a problem delivering on their promises and makeing deadlines....enough so that people take to the BBS to complain.

Vengeful_Deity wrote:

I would say that those people are just as informative as the fanboys, if not more so. It lets me know that the company in question has a problem delivering on their promises and makeing deadlines....enough so that people take to the BBS to complain.

No matter who the complaints are against, I tend to put a lot less stock in the complaints of those who make use of hyperbole in order to explain their grievances. Those who are willing to accuse a company of a violation of law for missing a deadline are the same sort of people who will complain about just about anything - they enjoy being righteously indignant. They are not to be taken seriously. Listen instead to those who are able to voice their complaints clearly and without resorting to extreme, false language.

ItaraKoturo wrote:

Listen instead to those who are able to voice their complaints clearly and without resorting to extreme, false language.

I absolutely agree.

Vengeful_Deity wrote:

Let us all just be greatful that they managed to get the character generator working before they dropped the ball. At least they delivered on something. Anything else I see out of DDI will be a plesant suprise.

It just seems like the magazine subscriptions weren't enough to pay the developer bills so the customer is getting stuck with a diminished product.

The ball was dropped well before the current group of developers began work on the Character Generator. The current folks are to a great extent hamstrung by prior management's decisions, problems with outsourced coding, and the spending glut for that outsourcing that's now limiting resources and manpower to a level below what would be needed to restart work on things like the VTT.

I doubt the draw of the e-zines for DDI subscriptions has much to do with the current problems and delays. That's one thing I can really only speculate on for the most part, though I suspect without much inside detail, that it's decent, but well below original expectations suggested to Hasbro, and in light of expenditures on Gleemax etc, facing a horrible uphill battle to claim any level of success.

I'm guessing about now there is an internal email telling their people to delete any mail having to do with promises of the gaming table.

I really did not think that a large company could be so openly shady in the modern market.

Hopefully someone has kept a copy of what has been promised so far so they can give it to the Better Business Bureau.

If there was a lawyer who thought WotC had any money you know there would be a class action lawsuit by now.

Their 'so called' poll was a laugh too. Did they ask people who still post on the boards what item they wanted to see next? The people who bought the books for the vaporware gametable stopped reading the boards a long time ago and have been waiting for some solid news. I guess this is the news we have been looking for.

Their pollsters should work for the government. "Here's what we want to do, now go get some data to support it."

Come on, people, please stop saying 'but you promised!' Nobody promised anyone anything. No contracts were signed, no pledges made, no cash was exchanged with the public.

There were some business plans, some promotion and advertisement, and then plans changed, mostly because their supplier let them down. Things get delayed. It happens.

Ratchet back the self-entitlement.

VerysArkon wrote:

There were some business plans, some promotion and advertisement, and then plans changed, mostly because their supplier let them down. Things get delayed. It happens.

please keep in mind, that this is just an assumption, as well. failure in outsourced software products is likely a matter of failure in various parts along the chain, most likely bad communication between the companies, and also often just a monetary issue.

just because that partnership has been laid to rest, does not mean that any of the companies did everything wrong, neither wotc nor radiantmachine.

---

as for they promised:well, they did not promise. but they also made a lot of bad calls and their information was pretty sparse/ill communicated. Because businesses do not promise anything, this is as close to a broken promise as you'll get in business.

I really don't expect a company to air it's internal issues.

Problem with vendors? Most likely. Very likely. Does that mean poor management on WoTC's part? That is an assumtion.

So when you pay a vendor to do content developement, say for a science program for high school. And along the way, you find out that the vendor has been submitting plagerized work, 10 chapters and 7 labs, that's quite a serious issue. This isn't an example, this actually happened where I once worked.

See, you know the vendor, they have been used before. You make an agreement that they develope original content. Everyone's responsiblity is clearly laid out in the workflow.

Now, we thought they were developing this content inhouse. Turns out they actually hired a freelancer, who in turn used friends to write the chapters and labs.

The vendor never told us this, they presented us with the face they were doing the work, and checking all the work.

Once we found out the writing had been plagerized, all this information about the freelancers came out, because the vendor hoped it would put the blame elsewhere. Didn't work of course. Not only had the vendor presented a false impression of what they were doing, they weren't even taking the time to check the work they were getting.

Thankfully I wasn't on this project directly.

mudbunny wrote:

I think that they need to put it out eventually, but, if they can get tools out quicker that will attract a much broader group to subscribe to DDI, and then, when the GT does come out, be ready-made to plug into the game table, I think that it is worth delaying the game table some.

You may think that, but some of us don't. And we're expressing our opinion to that effect. This isn't right or wrong. You feel like changing to other tools is great. I think first finishing the tools they hyped to me is better. I'm posting here and emailing WotC to make my opinion known.

FalconGK81 wrote:

You may think that, but some of us don't. And we're expressing our opinion to that effect. This isn't right or wrong. You feel like changing to other tools is great. I think first finishing the tools they hyped to me is better. I'm posting here and emailing WotC to make my opinion known.

Don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that your opinion is wrong, and if I gave that impression I apologize.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

Problem with vendors? Most likely. Very likely. Does that mean poor management on WoTC's part? That is an assumtion.

I would accept that, and I did accept that in 3E when the vender was Fluid. But I cannot accept the fact that they just happen to get a bad vendor yet again for the D&D tools for 4E.

The fact that they have had 2 separate vender problems (and from what I understand, there were a little problems from Code Monkey - on the WotC side from what I understand), make me think that the bulk of the blame is on WotC. Now that could be communication issues (who would of thought? ) or it could be going with the lowest price vender. Whatever it is, I find it very hard to beleive it was only a vender problem.

rjdafoe wrote:

I would accept that, and I did accept that in 3E when the vender was Fluid. But I cannot accept the fact that they just happen to get a bad vendor yet again for the D&D tools for 4E.

The fact that they have had 2 separate vender problems (and from what I understand, there were a little problems from Code Monkey - on the WotC side from what I understand), make me think that the bulk of the blame is on WotC. Now that could be communication issues (who would of thought? ) or it could be going with the lowest price vender. Whatever it is, I find it very hard to beleive it was only a vender problem.

I've worked with vendors that were good on one project, bad on the next.

Vendors quality goes up and down from project to project. Once you get some experience with vendors, the common thing you discover is that when vendors get over worked, quality goes down, and excuses go up.

I've yet to see a vendor ever say, we are to over worked to take on more work. They all say yes, and every one suffers, save the company that is paying the most.

Communication is a lot harder then people think. It really, really is.

I'm not saying it was a vendor side only issue.

But you've got some people here placing all the blame on WoTC, and making statements as facts, and saying that anyone else's opinions are assumtions. Trying to have it both ways, denouncing anyone else's speculation, while demanding their's be taken as fact.

rjdafoe wrote:

Whatever it is, I find it very hard to beleive it was only a vendor problem.

big, successful companies do have vendor problems often. what distinguishes many of them from wotc, is that they usually have a better backup plan, and it seems to me, better contracts. when i subcontract out to another company, i make sure it's clearly written in the contract who has to provide what, until when, and what will happen if someone fails to provide that.

examples include:
- answers to system critical questions have to be provided within a workday from both sides.
- specifications have to be sent till xx.xx, or the product will be late at least each day the spec is late, and charges have to be paid nevertheless.
- testsuite has to be ready by xx.xx, alpha, beta, at xx.xx.

and so on, and so on. there's a reason good managers are highly valued and have their price.

wotc saved in that department, as i doubt that randyb cost them that lot more than say, dave noonan or colin price, who were not in charge of some of the digital aspects, but merely ordinary R&D or whatever it is they did those days. and those savings are part of the reason why they failed in the past, failed with the 4e tools, and will fail again in the future.

---
note:

even though i see their failures with a lot of salt (not just a grain), i can understand them fully. i also can understand the will to hire games people over fully professionals, but i hope they learned a lesson from that - they can't expect the same efficiency from them, if their primary decision making was money or involvement in the industry, and only the secondary was skill.

ItaraKoturo wrote:

A bait and switch occurs when a company advertises a product at a very low price, lures the customer in, and then is revealed to not actually offer the advertised product. Instead, they try to sell you a substitute product for a higher price.

Your definition of a classic bait and switch is correct. What I am proposing is that what they've done here is also a bait and switch, although of another kind. They baited people to subscribe to D&DI to get the VTT and CV, pushed it back from launch (certainly understandable) and then almost a year later when they still couldn't deliver, they created a poll that would generate the response they wanted (build something else) and then released that poll as justification to then switch away from the product that they are unwilling/incapable of producing. They both baited and switch. I'm calling it a bait and switch.

I'll ask again, why did they release this poll? I've never seen them release internal polls before. They did it because it gives them the justification to do what they wanted to do. I suggest that the poll was designed for this purpose in the first place, and I believe they only released it because they got the answers they wanted. They didn't ask "Would you want Campaign Tools INSTEAD or BEFORE the tools we've already said we'd give you". I suspect they would have gotten a much different answer.

I want to stress again, I'm not one of those "WotC = evil" posters. Along with playing 4e regularly I also play Magic regularly. I give WotC lots of praise and defense when I think they've earned it. I fought on these forums in the lead up to 4e release against the anti-4e crowd. I think 4e is a great system and tons of fun. I also think that they made what I consider a promise (others may disagree) and they are now reneging on that promise. The indefinite suspension of VTT is a death knell for it.

They've been working on it for almost a year past when they said it would be ready. From all accounts its at best in an early alpha state. Just how long do we think the VTT is going to take? And now it isn't even going to be on the top of their list. Mark my words, VTT is going to be a long time coming, if it ever comes at all. That is really sad, because a MAJOR push of their advertising campaign for 4e was that we'd be able to get together with our friends online and play D&D on the VTT. They hyped me up, and now they aren't delivering. I'll go on playing 4e tabletop, I'm having lots of fun, but I'm considering whether or not to keep the D&DI subscription. I may decide the CB is worth it. Heck I may even stick around to see what they do with the Campaign Tools. However, I'm very disappointed, and I'm using the forums (as well as direct correspondence with WotC) to voice my frustration.

FalconGK81 wrote:

You may think that, but some of us don't. And we're expressing our opinion to that effect. This isn't right or wrong. You feel like changing to other tools is great. I think first finishing the tools they hyped to me is better. I'm posting here and emailing WotC to make my opinion known.

Sorry that you feel the way you do. But business plans change, people get laid off, projects get put off and sometimes outright canceled. Its the hazards of doing business.

You have stated your opinion and have emailed WOTC to express your displeasure. That is the way to handle it.

Just please now do not become one of the 10 or 12 that constantly post their displeasure over and over and over and over and over and over. Did I mention over and over and over again?

Mithreinmaethor wrote:

Sorry that you feel the way you do. But business plans change, people get laid off, projects get put off and sometimes outright canceled. Its the hazards of doing business.

You have stated your opinion and have emailed WOTC to express your displeasure. That is the way to handle it.

Just please now do not become one of the 10 or 12 that constantly post their displeasure over and over and over and over and over and over. Did I mention over and over and over again?

Maybe its a combination of feeling like they aren't being heard while being shouted down by everyone else? Just a thought.

Mithreinmaethor wrote:

Just please now do not become one of the 10 or 12 that constantly post their displeasure over and over and over and over and over and over. Did I mention over and over and over again?

the problem is actually neither the people who complain over and over, nbor the people who horray over and over. the problem is when two of those kind meet each other, and decide to battle it out.

it's the reason why i ignore (manually, not automatically, as they might still say something useful) both such people as d**e or k*, because they are not driven by the wish to communicate, but a wish to win. this is nothing i like to see, or be part of.


@falcon: there's a saying where i come from. goes something like: "the wood answers as loud as you shout into it. ", meaning that if you are agressive, you won't get an answer or if you get one, it will be exactly the same way. controlling your feelings and how you argue, should be key to getting answers.

also, keep to trevor if you need something. he's a nice guy.

FalconGK81 wrote:

Maybe its a combination of feeling like they aren't being heard while being shouted down by everyone else? Just a thought.

The thing is, they know they have been heard. WoTC and the volunteers who monitor this forum have responded or said they have informed WoTC.

I am not advocating they not speak up, but I don't like the insults and lies they tell. Yes, it's amazing some of them lie. Some just get the facts wrong. How many times have they gotten told that the PDF plan originally intended was scrapped way before 4E came out. And yet they keep saying PDFs were promised with each bought hard copy book.

Lets be honest, it's no longer about being heard. And it's completely impossible to be shouted down on a forum. I can not erease their posts with my posting, nor does it slow them down from posting.

At this point, it's just sour grapes because they had their say, which turned into tantrums, for some, thread derailing for others, and they didn't get what they wanted.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

But you've got some people here placing all the blame on WoTC, and making statements as facts, and saying that anyone else's opinions are assumtions. Trying to have it both ways, denouncing anyone else's speculation, while demanding their's be taken as fact.

Well, to be honest, it sounds that you were not around for the ride for the 3E tools. This is well documented if you google E-Tools, Master Tools, Fluid, Code Monkey. Although all of it is 5 years or more old at this point.

The fact is, they went with a vender that did not have alot of experience and it did not come out the way they intended. Most companies would be very careful the next time to make sure it did not happen again.

Again, those of us that were around back then and waited for the planned tools, see parallels into what is going on now. To be honest, I would rather NOT see that happen.

Here is hoping the Campaign Tools get released relativly soon and are at the same quality as the Character Builder.

rjdafoe wrote:

Here is hoping the Campaign Tools get released relativly soon and are at the same quality as the Character Builder.

I second this statement. Not only is the CB awesome, which would mean the CT would be awesome, I want them back on the VTT and CV.

FalconGK81 wrote:

I second this statement. Not only is the CB awesome, which would mean the CT would be awesome, I want them back on the VTT and CV.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to take a good 8-12 months.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to take a good 8-12 months.

Given the number of developers available to work on any new apps, it's going to be interesting to see what happens.

Dane_McArdy wrote:

I wouldn't be surprised if it's going to take a good 8-12 months.

I hope not. 12 months would be a full 2 years after the release of 4E.

If it takes that long, maybe they should have pooled there resources and spent the next 6 months getting out one of the other applications that are at least 1/2 way done.

We shall see I suppose. At this point in time, they are in control of their own destiny.

I am a Truck Driver, have been for almost a year now, before that I was in the Air Force. I started playing D&D with 2nd edition, boy how things have changed I feel this has been the best version to date (how many of you remember trying to explain THAC0 to a new player). While i was stationed at LRAFB i was in 3 gameing groups playing anywhere from 12-18 hours a week, now i have moved back to my home town and got part of the old group back, however i am only home One week every one to two months. I have been looking forward to the Virtual Table Top for some time now. I can't wait to play with those guys again, but online is all we have now. And to think i can put the map on my TV instead of using the Chessex map will be so much better.

I have to say that the plans for the Character Gen, Campaign Tools, and the Table Top were a big undertaking. But if we allow them time to get all of the programs working well and working well with each other. We will all be gratefull they took there time. I have seen disasters in programs that were rushed (e-Tools). And to think i spent money on that There would be one wish I do have and I think many would agree, we need to be kept informed a little more regularly than we are now or at least given a date (even if it changes at least we would feel more comfortable about spending the money ahead of time)

WotC_Trevor wrote:

So last week we announced that we were working on a set of Campaign Tools with the intention of helping players manage and run their ongoing games and campaigns. These tools will focus on encounters, monsters, mapping and adventures.

Previously, we focused all of our energies and effort into making the Character Builder the best tool it could be. We're going to continue that focused effort as we move forward - we're just shifting our attention to the Campaign Tools. This means that we're not actively working on any other unreleased tools, which includes the game table and the character visualizer. Once we have the Campaign Tools out and we're as happy with them as we are with the Character Builder, we'll have a better idea of what our next step is.

As far as more details about the Campaign Tools, I don't have any more information for you now, but we should have some details for you soon.

I'm pleased that you are working on the campaign tools first. And i've actually subscribed to DDI because the bonus tools are available(encounter builder & monster builder )

And to give you some feedback to help develop campaign tools here's a few thoughts.
Encounter builder is almost excellent as it is. If you added a monster stat block/card and a map to the print out. You would have pretty much the same format as the adventures published in dungeon magazine. As it is now I print out the encounter, they go print out the monster entries from the compendium. But being able to put them all together would be excellent tool. Especially as it would be in the same format as published adventures.

Monster builder is good. I would of liked to traps/hazards in there as well. And also the ability to increase/decrease a current monsters level. For instance yesterday I wanted to use a Medusa but they are 11th level, and 8th or 9th level would of been more appropriate level. Be able to load it into the builder and reduce it by 2 or 3 levels would of been great

20102000 wrote:

Encounter builder is almost excellent as it is. If you added a monster stat block/card and a map to the print out. You would have pretty much the same format as the adventures published in dungeon magazine. As it is now I print out the encounter, they go print out the monster entries from the compendium. But being able to put them all together would be excellent tool. Especially as it would be in the same format as published adventures.

Monster builder is good. I would of liked to traps/hazards in there as well. And also the ability to increase/decrease a current monsters level. For instance yesterday I wanted to use a Medusa but they are 11th level, and 8th or 9th level would of been more appropriate level. Be able to load it into the builder and reduce it by 2 or 3 levels would of been great

I agree with the above. Also to add my two cents, I would love to see a adventure creator, allowing you to basically put together maps, and combine that with player information for the DM to read, a list of encounters,monsters, tactics, and treasure parcles, And make it all be able to be extracted so that we could share our adventures like we can our character builder ideas.

As for those that are disappointed by the VTT delay, I can understand, but I don't recall ever being PROMISED anything? I saw some plans and some promotion of the plans, but plans change. Stuff happens. Its okay. I'm only paying for what I've got access to.

Well you could try opening to the last page of your 4th Edition Players Handbook.

Right there at the bottom of the page. "Play D&D online".

Personally I think WoTC made a bad call. The campaign manager is too broad and ill-defined. It's the perfect program to eat up all their time but never actually come out.

And the chances of seeing the VTT before 5th Edition are... pretty slim now. Which is a shame. Because it would allow people to play D&D no matter what else they had going on in their lives. Thus encouraging book sales. The kind of people the Campaign Manager helps would buy those books anyway.

And I'm in the camp that thinks the poll was specifically created to get this result. They decided what they wanted and then created a poll that would give them an excuse.

I JUST answered one of their polls. It asked: "Do you play D&D online currently". It did NOT ask: "Do you want us to provide you with a way to play D&D online". A different poll I believe but still formated to reinforce this decision.

All these tools without a VTT is like a dating service without a chat interface. You have all these tools but no way to actually make use of them or be part of a community.

I personally as a DM of my own Homemade Campaign appreciate all the tools WoTC are working on at the moment while patiently waiting to see the others once they are pulled into the lime light once more, my only criticism at the moment is why can i not create minions, i need this fixed, i want to create minions for some of my homemade monsters. Other than that im a happy customer.

P.S Thanks to tiamat for linking me to this topic i appreciate the leg up.

mudbunny wrote:

When the books were originally assembled and sent off to the printers, it was with the expectation (of a company that were novices in software development of this sort) that the software would be ready upon release of 4E.

Well, an ooops later, they weren't, and since then they have switched the business model that they are using to one that works better for them. They are focussing on one project at a time u8ntil it gets to a point where it is in mostly maintanence-mode.

So why did they tell us we had to hand out the flyers for DDi that also said you could log on and play with freinds online, at the opening Demo Games?

The answer seems to be because WotC felt admitting openly, not hidden in some post buried in a board, it would hurt sales.

So they just ignored the fact and went on.

Spin it how you will, but the flyers really give the books were alredy ready before they knew. Someone in marketing knew, and I bet they even got a raise.

Lee

Larac wrote:

So why did they tell us we had to hand out the flyers for DDi that also said you could log on and play with freinds online, at the opening Demo Games?

The answer seems to be because WotC felt admitting openly, not hidden in some post buried in a board, it would hurt sales.

So they just ignored the fact and went on.

Spin it how you will, but the flyers really give the books were alredy ready before they knew. Someone in marketing knew, and I bet they even got a raise.

Lee

I don't recall anyone from WotC telling me or anyone else at my store we had to hand out flyers.

As long as we're "betting" those flyers were also very likely printed up months in advance - and when the packing lists were drawn up they were still included. As someone who deals with the RPGA at large conventions you'd be surprised how often things that are fairly important don't ship, or ship to the wrong place, while we get other stuff we don't need instead.

Likewise, as someone who runs Game Day for the RPGA, it isn't uncommon for flyers with bad/wrong information to be included on flyers. (Wrong dates, for example).

It's entirely possible the boxes were even packed up a couple months in advance of shipping and sitting in a warehouse with all their contents ready-to-go and nobody thought to open them all just to remove a few flyers. Or if they did, that the costs would have been prohibitive.

Yes, WotC made a mistake - I don't think anyone will argue that, however that error doesn't automatically equal malfeasance - no matter how you try to spin it. (See? Anyone can use the term spin! Isn't it fun to make baseless accusations?)

*note - I'm not ACTUALLY accusing you of trying to manipulate facts. You see things how you see them, but hopefully this ironic useage illustrates how (frankly) silly it is to accuse someone of spin?

As a non-DDi subscriber for various reasons, I don't really have a dog in this race. But I've seen the 'books were shipped out months in advance' argument a few times, and if I was one of the angry customers it wouldn't fly with me. Here's why:

Say, for the sake of argument, that the books were sent to the printers with the ads 6 months in advance, which I suspect is probably generous towards WotC. That means that 6 months out WotC though the VTT would be at least open beta-ready within half a year.

OK, so things happen and products get delayed. I get that. But at release they must have still thought the VTT would be out soon. Otherwise a forthright and honest company would let it's fans know, "Hey, you know all that hype we've been generating and stuff we've been advertising? Yeah, it's still going to be awhile before chunks of that are realized."

So they either A) honestly believed the VTT and other missing tools would be out within a reasonable time-frame, or B) they knew there would be a greater delay, but knew it would hurt sales to acknowledge it so allowed fans to continue to believe these tools were around the corner.

If A, well it's been a further year since then and we now find out that the VTT has been shelved indefinitely while they pursue other projects, which makes it hard to believe they thought it was close to being finished 18 months ago but still giving them the benefit of the doubt makes DDi - the VTT portion at least - a horribly mismanaged project to the point where it hardly matters if it was intentional.

If B, then no they haven't behaved honestly, and people's scorn is rightly placed.

Long story short, books going to print months in advance of launch isn't much of an excuse and is pretty flimsy cover for not having an advertised VTT a year later.

kamel wrote:

If A, well it's been a further year since then and we now find out that the VTT has been shelved indefinitely while they pursue other projects, which makes it hard to believe they thought it was close to being finished 18 months ago but still giving them the benefit of the doubt makes DDi - the VTT portion at least - a horribly mismanaged project to the point where it hardly matters if it was intentional.

I believe it. WotC is not a software company. WotC didn't realize that software development is not linear. WotC didn't realize that in software, the hardest bit is the last 10%. In game design, while I have no experience in the matter, I understand that one of the hardest parts can be the fundamental concepts. Once you have that down, things flow well. With software development, you start out with an idea, and then you build a base, then you build more, and it's the last touches that are the tough bit (for instance, the CB doesn't have warforged components still). So I find it completely believable that the WotC management thought it was almost done when it wasn't (and of course, programmers suck at estimating. A bad programmer will estimate it will be done long before it actually is, and a good one will just not give an estimate, especially when it comes to debugging). And once 4e hit, they realized they should reprioritize, did so, and as a result we have what we have.

coppro wrote:

I believe it. WotC is not a software company. WotC didn't realize that software development is not linear. WotC didn't realize that in software, the hardest bit is the last 10%.

It is already hard, that a company makes the same mistake twice, even worse to see them make the same mistake three times. After mastertools, they should definitely have learned a lesson or two about software development. Add in gleemax, and they should be very careful already. But nothing happened.


Oh, and coppro - a good programmer will give you an estimate - ALWAYS. He just might not give you an exact date, but a timeframe, as it is usually done.

Sorry, but while the books may have been sent to the printers months in advance, it would not normally have been that hard to delete a 'last page advertisement.' Books have been substantially altered within that window, including major changes to both covers and the titles...books with bestseller print runs before the digital age.

And you're still missing your estimated date by north of two years....and looking like north of three for the full set, after having tried to do some similar stuff twice before.

unhappy wrote:

Oh, and coppro - a good programmer will give you an estimate - ALWAYS. He just might not give you an exact date, but a timeframe, as it is usually done.

That takes an excellent programmer.

TED69 wrote:

So its official the original tools that many of us have looked forward to are dead (at least for now and imop probably for good).

Thats it for me for 4E, I'm going back to 3.5 until Wotc can provide me with what was originally promised. I want the visualizer, dungeon builder and virtual table top we were promised, not a bait and switch!

First they pull pdfs now this, well I'm pulling my money and I hope many others do also; it seems to be all Wotc / Hasbro understands.

I have to agree. The launch and media hype around 4Ed all included the amazing tools and how DnD insider would grant you wonderful access to the new world and it turns out to be a money trap.

WOTC have just gone into cash mode dumping non-profit tools and printing money by pumping out new books every month with half-baked/rehashed classes and powers and dumping quality for quantity.

rjdafoe wrote:

Well, to be honest, it sounds that you were not around for the ride for the 3E tools. This is well documented if you google E-Tools, Master Tools, Fluid, Code Monkey. Although all of it is 5 years or more old at this point.

The fact is, they went with a vender that did not have alot of experience and it did not come out the way they intended. Most companies would be very careful the next time to make sure it did not happen again.

Again, those of us that were around back then and waited for the planned tools, see parallels into what is going on now. To be honest, I would rather NOT see that happen.

Here is hoping the Campaign Tools get released relativly soon and are at the same quality as the Character Builder.

You forgot to mention they came down hard on anyone who actually managed to create a good character generator and made them look like fools.

I really can't believe people are still argueing over WoTC motives.

Look if you believe they lied. Fine. If you believe they didn't lie, fine.

Argueing over the facts isn't going to change the past, or change what any person thinks. Either you think WoTC is run by morons, or you understand why things happened the way they did.

But it would be nice to finally move away from this subject on the forums. It's a dead horse. Both sides need to drop it.

Come on. I get posts removed because I'm picking on Dane and I don't even get a warning post?

What's a guy got to do to get a content removed post?

Hi. I had to remove some content from this thread because it violates the Code of Conduct. Please be polite and respectful towards other community members.

Woohoo!

coppro wrote:

That takes an excellent programmer.

No it doesn't. Its true that in software design/development that projects can and do "slip", but it isn't hard to accurately project the amount of time a project will take to finish. Again, you could adjust your estimate as time goes, but getting relatively in the ballpark does not take an excellent programmer, it takes management, and not even "excellent" management.