Community

After we launch our D&DI subscription service, the Character Builder will become our #1 priority. First up will be a public Beta test, then a commercial release, and then our development efforts will move onto the Character Visualizer. The way the Beta will work is that we will first make the application available to a select group of special testers (including folks who signed up to be Beta testers at D&D Experience) and then we will make it available to the general public. Everyone who wants to will get the chance to participate for free.

I thought they already said it was top priority. It hasn't been top priority?

The Beta version of the Character Builder will have full functionality, but it will only have rules content that covers level 1-3 characters. The same thing will be true of the free demo version of the Character Builder which will be available for folks to sample after the full version goes on sale: it will have everything you need to build a level 1, 2, or 3 character. We have not yet announced a release date for the full version of the Character Builder.

Cool news. But when will the BETA be availiable? How can we sign up? I don't intend to buy the subscription to DDi at all, I don't know what makes them think it is worth $7.95 a month but w/e thats up to them. They won't be getting my money until they release the full package. Not worth it at all.

Randy Buehler]We probably will not be done testing our Ecommerce and Entitlements system in time to launch by October 1st, so you’ wrote:

We probably will not be done testing our Ecommerce and Entitlements system in time to launch by October 1st, so you’ll probably get a couple of extra articles for free as we continue to publish three times per week, but here’s the short version:

How do you "continue" something you have not done in two weeks, sir?

Editorials are not content.

Ranadiel wrote:

The article doesn't address my biggest concern which is wha will happen if you buy the year long web content pack and then you decide you want to upgrade to the client pack when that pricing scheme becomes available.

It's been stated elsewhere that if you've paid for a year of the "online-only" content, and they go live with "D&DI Full" in six months, you will still ride out your six months of web-only content - with the option to upgrade to the full package if you so desire.

Hope that helps.

KM wrote:

My thoughts as well.

...so you’ll probably get a couple of extra articles for free as we continue to publish three times per week...

Granted, articles for Dragon have been posted three times a week but the only thing posted for Dungeon this entire month has been an editorial. Where's the content?!

Fox Reeveheart wrote:

I don't care what explaination they give me. So it wasn't ready for september so you just decided to put it into paying october? RIIIIIIGHT. Again it's all about money.

I'm a little disappointed as well by the decision to start charging so early into this, well before it seems there is a solid grasp on consistently producing content for the mags... having said that, let's not fool ourselves about WotC's intention to make money. Of course they want to make money, they're not running the Benevolent Order of the Merciful Mindflayer, they're a business. While I'm sure the people that work for WotC and create products for it love what they do, they expect to buy groceries and feed families at the end of the week, and in order for them to get paid WotC has to charge for their product.

Still, I'm unsettled by the chaos that is emanating around so many of their products right now...

Originally Posted by Randy Buehler
Non-subscribers will be able to launch the Compendium, search for things, and see what results are returned. However, non-subscribers will not be able to click on the name of the rules element in order to see what it actually does.

So the Compendium is pretty much going to be useless now unless you have a subscription?  I thought it was going to be free? Oh wait, not a useful version just the marketing version.  Lame.  I wouldn't care so much but that is not what we were originally led to believe if not outright told.  Actually, I'm still not sure why it bugs me since I don't need the Compendium (that's what I use the books for).  I'm sure others would've used it but not sure now that it's been nerfed.

Originally Posted by Randy Buehler
In other words, non-subscribers can see what things exist and what book they should go buy if they want to read more but don’t want a D&DI subscription.

Man, I'd like to lay down a whole boatload of cuss words for the way that was worded.  Makes it seems like all we are is money to them.  I understand businesses need money.  Who doesn't?  He certainly couldn't be accused of being tactful.  Is this basically a table of contents?  Sounds like it from the description.

As far as Dungeon & Dragon online magazines are concerned the quality is a bit dubious at best (to be fair, there have been a few, but not enough to pay for).  And timeliness seems not to be too important.

$4.95 for a mostly mag subscription is a bit much for something that has no printing cost to wotc and little to no marketing cost beyond what is already in the budget for DDI (the mags are just a great face for the product.  well the old ones were).

I also agree with not wanting to pay for editorials.  If I'm paying, you can keep your marketing news / updates to yourself.  That doesn't mean that I would be ticked of they are included in the mags (a few have been interesting), just that I wouldn't want to pay for a whole mag where there are more editorials than content.

I know that there will be people who will subscribe (I may end up one of them if wotc can deliver quality, value, and if they can follow through on promises.  rather poor track record so far), but at this time it doesn't seem like it'll be worth my while.

Other questions:

If people are paying what happens if the site is down?  Or if the tools are buggy / broken?  Or if the Compendium isn't updated in a timely manner.

Also, what happens if I decide to subscribe in December?  Do I get access to October & November's articles (full archive)?  And what happens to my subscription if they promise content for a specific month and it gets pushed to some later time?  Do I get a credit / refund?  An extra month added to my subscription?

I love the 4e setting (minor issues, but so far a great update overall), I just feel that the 3rd ed version of this site had better written and more consistently useful articles.

I wish wotc luck (not that they need me for that), but I hope they step up their game if they intend to start charging.

Kensan_Oni wrote:

Quite simply 60 dollars for a subscription to a trade magazine is unacceptable. I can get 12 issues of Cosmopoliton for 15... and they print it out and ship it to me. Even Asimov, which is HEAVY written content, charges only 40 for a year, and they STILL print it out and ship it to you.

You don't have the overhead of print. Electrons are cheaper by a HUGE portion. Even paying your writers the way you do, you still don't use that much money.

So no. Unaceptable. Go back and think about it again.

Ah, but Aasimov and Cosmo combined are $60/year. Don't forget that Dungeon and Dragon are two separate magazines.

I don't know if that changes the value position or not, but it's a point worth considering, I think.

WolfStar76 wrote:

Ah, but Aasimov and Cosmo combined are $60/year. Don't forget that Dungeon and Dragon are two separate magazines.

I don't know if that changes the value position or not, but it's a point worth considering, I think.

And both of those mags are still printed and shipped to you, another point worth considering. Dungeon and Dragon still cost more (or about the same)and deliver less.

So the Compendium is pretty much going to be useless now unless you have a subscription? I thought it was going to be free? Oh wait, not a useful version just the marketing version. Lame. I wouldn't care so much but that is not what we were originally led to believe if not outright told. Actually, I'm still not sure why it bugs me since I don't need the Compendium (that's what I use the books for). I'm sure others would've used it but not sure now that it's been nerfed.

I am fairly certain that it was announced last year that only paying members would have access to the full compendium and others would be able to look at the items listed but not see descriptions.

As far as this all goes I love the pricing. The pricing is great, once you have the DM Table, Visualizer and DM Tools up.

I agree with everyone else $5-8 bucks a month for articles that are CONSTANTLY late it not acceptable at all. Especially when you factor in the cost of paper to print and the cost of ink as well.

Not to mention the inconsistency as someone mentioned before with things not being worded properly to mesh nicely with the core books is a headache. I look forward to eventually using the tools and the pricing will be nice when they are available. But a few lame bonus tools is not enough to make up for what we are NOT getting. My money will be staying in my pocket for the time being.

Kentinal wrote:

This was answered.

If you pay for a year now and full package goes live before then, you will be credited with unused potion to the cost of the full package.

Oh....well awesome that is exactly what I wanted. I'll definatly sign up the day it goes live then. Whoo!

Phobos wrote:

I'm interested in the Character Builder, so until that's out, I'm out as well.

I'd pay $7.95/mo (on a month by month basis) for the e-zines and the builder, but the rest of it has no value to me.

Until then, the e-zines can be acquired elsewhere, and nothing else out at the moment warrants payment.

Not going to happen. The character buiilder is part of the client package. As such you either have the options of only getting the magazines for 7.99 or getting everything for the higher price(14.99?)....unless you are willing to pay for longer periods of time.

Ranadiel wrote:

Not going to happen. The character buiilder is part of the client package. As such you either have the options of only getting the magazines for 7.99 or getting everything for the higher price(14.99?)....unless you are willing to pay for longer periods of time.

See, this is where I know you're wrong. It fully well has the ability *to* happen. Hasbro, and Wizard's, have a figure they have already attached to the DDi. There is a successful figure, a "we can live with that" figure, and (just like we saw with the GSL and 3pp) a "we need to re-evaluate" figure.

If enough folks speak with their wallets, the pricing structure and model will change.

There are still many tools out there that can cover the character builder, it's a nice to have, not a necessity. Same goes with the table.

I've love to use the official one, but nothing is forcing us to.

Wizard's took the wrong approach with books and magazines already. They could have hit a cash cow with print and electronic versions if they would have looked beyond the corporate sand in hand box. Perhaps they might still someday, but for now, I feel that opportunity has passed.

Phobos wrote:

for now, I feel that opportunity has passed.

I hope this isn't the case, but it seems ever more likely. We'll have the PHB3 before the VTT at this rate...

Ranadiel wrote:

In the case of Cosmo one could make the argument that a blank sheet of paper has more content....:P

lol, nice.

Ranadiel wrote:

But yes you do need to say more because you didn't provide any facts to back up your opinion. How many pages are in a standard magazine these days? How many of those pages are full page ads(or half page ad that stretches accross two pages)? How does Dragon(or Dungeon) compare when you subtract the ads from the standard number of pages? I'd check this stuff myself, but I don't have any magazines immediatly available myself.

I just asked you to consider it, and because MOST people have access to a magazine. Wasn't aware from that comment that I needed to provide the facts since it was a "see-for-yourself" sort of thing.

BroadStreetBully wrote:

And here's a quick comparison, just something to chew on:

If you check the archives, there were 91 individual updates back in September 2006. We're over halfway through September 2008, and there are only 25 updates so far this month.



Think about that: back in 2006, with who even knows how many splat books and adventures being finalized for publication, with regular monthly printed Dungeon and Dragon magazines rolling out every four weeks, and DDM already a soundly established front-runner with 4-5 sets produced annually, WotC had 91 web updates. The readers weren't asked to pay a single dime for it, either.

But a large portion of that wasn't expected to be up to the level of "official" material. And a lot of it wasn't. I'm fine with less content of higher quality. (Actually, not only fine with it, but it's exactly what I want if I'm going to pay for it.)

aramis8 wrote:

Maior question: How I can pay for my subscribtion? It isn't ususal in my country to own a credit card.

WotC will be using a service that acepts payments in many forms, I do not recall the list, however paypal was one listed, it strikes me as likely direct deposit to the service could be an option if you have a banking account. Once they start asking for money be assured they will let you know how you can pay it. It clearly has been indicated payment with credit card only was not going to occur.

VerysArkon wrote:

Do you really think paying 5 bucks a month for more pages than a typical splat book is too much?

Verys

Not if they deliver. But this month has been, frankly, not encouraging in terms of delivering.

And why is there so much surprise that some of us are a bit nonplussed at all this? I mean, I really don't get that. WotC makes certain assertions (I realize they're not promises, contracts, or blood oaths) about how things are going to work, and then (recently at least) seems to fumble. People are disappointed. They've been disappointed since before Feedback #7 came out.

Then, we hear that it might also start costing us money very soon, when some of us aren't sure it's worth it yet. Thus, people are more disappointed. This should not be surprising.

Krancher wrote:

Hafta speak up as a fan of the on-line mags, as I feel that a lot of the criticism on this thread is undeserved.

Firstly, $60 a year for two monthly magazines is a very fair subscription rate. How many other hobby magazines do you know of that produce the amount and quality of substance found in Dungeon and Dragon, complete with beautiful full-color art and no advertisements, for $30/year? I don't know of any.

A) 60 dollars a year for print magazines would be perfectly fair the reason they made them digital is to save on printing costs as such said material should be cheaper to the consumer

B) No Advertisements that's a joke right? Almost everything they print in the magazine is an advertisement for Print books Play testing the artificer will make people eager to buy whatever book they release it in most likely eberon.
They also in many places Pump up coming books That is advertising.

C) Lots of People could care less about Dragon since they make their own adventures I don't even look at the thing. I'm not paying for a mag I'll never use.

Krancher wrote:

Format is in part a matter of preference. I understand the dismay of those who prefer to hold paper copies--at the same time, I myself vastly prefer the digital format, and I am sure others do as well. Less mess around the house, easier for me to find stuff. Oh, and if anyone at Wizards is reading this, an annual digital index would be smashing!

I like digital too what I don't like is paying print prices for digital products

Krancher wrote:

Digital publishing has another advantage, which is that Wizards can deliver content to us in a more timely fashion. Granted, the M-W-F schedule hasn't worked out, but even if there is a rush at the end of the month (and in publishing, there is always a rush come press time), the bottom line is that the content is there. Wizards isn't failing to release material, and keep in mind that even the articles released on the last day of the month are in your hands two weeks earlier than they would be if Wizards had to wait to publish everything in a print version and send it through the post.

The other advantage to this is that they can put the info out in spurts so that the community can Point out teh rly borken stuff before it gets compiled for them. This is a double edged sword it Is good because we get more quality stuff from them but it's bad because were paying them to be the editors.

Krancher wrote:

And for those who resent Wizard's decision to start charging "so soon," please go take a look at the PDFs of the complete issues of Dungeon and Dragon that have been released for the past three months. There is nothing half-baked about those issues. Every one is print-quality material, and every one has been given away for free. Take $25 and multiply it by the number of people who have perused any of those articles over the past few months to get an idea of how much material Wizards has presented to its fan base free of cost as a show of good faith as they get DDI off the ground. It's practically the equivalent of mailing free PHB's to every D&D fan in the world. Whether the material is a worthwhile investment to you is, of course, a personal matter, but describing Wizards' business model as "robbery" or money-grubbing is just plain wrong-headed.

The reasons It is being heralded that they are charging to soon are the following

A) They can't stay on scedule they have proved this time and time again I am not going to pay them to do a job they cant't do right and I'll need proof that they can.

B) If they start charging now and don't turn the profit they expect they will quite possibly scrap the whole project. Now since there is no game table there is no reason for everyone to purchase. So I figure most they are likeley they will get 1 out of 5 of the people who actually want the magazines. With the game table available that number jumps drastically.

The reason that people call this money grubbing actually has little to do with the mags as most of us just see the mags as extras to the real tools most of the stuff in them has been free far longer than D&DI was around there was probably as much web content freely available Before they realized if they call it Dungeon and Dragon Mag they could charge for it. I'm not interested in paying them to tell me how cool D&D is in the form of editorials I already know this, I'm Not Interested in paying them to play test stuff they will release later in books I will again be paying for I'm interested in the few Crunchy bits that is solely for Dragon.

Krancher wrote:

Lastly, the much-maligned Bonus Tools. Here I am most in agreement with other posters on this thread--they're not up to snuff. But given that the basic DDI subscription is already perfectly justified by the magazine content, I regard these tools exactly as they are described: as a bonus. Maybe they're not all they could be, but I'm not one to turn my nose up at free extras, and I think they have potential. I know in my 3E game I used the Hypertext d20 extensively during play; if the Compendium can give me similar functionality (which I think it will in the near future), I'll be thrilled to have it.

They aren't just not up to snuff they are a joke and they basically were made in a vain attempt to take the heat off the other virtual failures Which in all honesty is just plain insulting.

The compendium will never give the functionality that it promised Page numbers for non subscribers full rules for subscribers I don't pay people to fail.

I think I've made my point that the asking price isn't justified by the Mags alone If they were charging 4.99 as a monthly fee and not a yearly fee that might be justified since Most people won't get any use out of dungeon It can't be added into the value equation. 1 in 5 people the DM might use this mag If they don't enjoy creating adventures themselves.

Krancher wrote:

In closing, never forget that the folks at Wizards aren't just working for the $$$. Yeah, they have bills to pay like the rest of us, but more than that, they are also this game's biggest fans. They want to make this stuff good and make it available even more than we want it. Keeping that in mind, we may find a little more patience while we wait for the next free content release.

What the heck gives you this Idea yes they do want to make it available because if they don't they can't charge for it. I don't doubt the designers are fans of the game I don't have a problem with the designers really I have a problem with WOTC marketing and Digital lead developers and don't fool yourself they are there solely for the money because they have repeatedly lied to sell this product. Compendium goalposts were moved they say it wasn't the intent to be 100% inclusive either they lied then or they are lying now. Character builder and Dungeon builder were supposed to be part of the free material ya guess what not the case with the Char Builder and I'll go out on a limb here and say it won't be the case with the Dungeon builder either. Game table Hyped at every possible moment even though they knew damn well ahead of time that it wouldn't be ready, why? To sell books to people who otherwise wouldn't buy them that's why.

nexusvalhees wrote:

A) 60 dollars a year for print magazines would be perfectly fair the reason they made them digital is to save on printing costs as such said material should be cheaper to the consumer
....
Game table Hyped at every possible moment even though they knew damn well ahead of time that it wouldn't be ready, why? To sell books to people who otherwise wouldn't buy them that's why.

You know all of us (including me) are going to WotC hell for writing stuff like this right? :D

mouselim wrote:

My fellow whinners,

Whining is good and complaining helps to reduce mental stress

I for one also finds the cost high (and my native currency is not US dollars) for an electronic publication. Nevertheless, I will attempt to try it out. Why? If we practice the good principle of sharing that our papa and mama had taught us, then our cost will be significantly reduced right?

In my RP group, 4 of us, we believe in sharing everything except the games whereby the DM will have the liberty to the material alone (until the game or campaign is completed then they can have a peek). Even when we purchase the hardcopy of the Dragon magazines, I'll foot more of the cost whereas the players will distribute the remainder (20% each). And then we'll share reading the magazine and I get to keep the copy (of course they borrow it once in a while and I act like a library). Perfectly legal and honest.

So why not adopt the same here? :D

So long as your sharing is for use with your group, you're (probably) okay under personal use (IANAL).

However, it sounds like you may be advocating "sharing" with the public at large, and that would NOT be okay. It may be a fine line, but it's one to tread lightly.

erleni wrote:

In the meantime I have two questions about the VTT:
1) If I buy an adventure (say Keep on the Shadowfell), will I be able to go on the VTT and load it or will I have to recreate it using the Dungeon Builder (I'm doing that for KotS with Dundjinni and it takes a lot of time)?
2) When an adventure is posted on Dungeon or Dragon will we be able to go into VTT and load the maps directly?

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm whining since I have a sincere interest in DDI.

There have been indications that they may sell pre-made VTT versions of published adventures, complete with tiles, v-minis, etc you need to run the adventure online. No costs have been mentioned yet, however, but it sounds like they intend to include store-bought modules, as well as Dungeon Magazine adventures.

There's much hope in the RPGA that our adventures will be available as well.

ZDP wrote:

So the stuff isn't done yet. And WoTC is going to pull the free plug on what they have out right now (which people have made 3rd party freeware that matches/surpasses what's currently out) and start to charge people for it? And then after WoTC charges people you plan to start working on the other stuff, which was promised to be part of what we're paying for?

Seriously... you truthfully think people will want to pay for what they get for free already? I'd definitely pay for ALL the tools annually. But for just these "cheap bonus tools"? No way. We got a free basic generator from 1-20 with 3rd edition. And there's already several free ones for 4th ed. in existence. You have to bring something worth buying to the table, in order to get even the fanniest of fanboy to pay for it.

Umm you are paying for the magazines, not the bonus tools(hence why they are called bonus tools). They are only going to be charging the web content package, not the full client side package.

Ranadiel wrote:

Umm you are paying for the magazines, not the bonus tools(hence why they are called bonus tools). They are only going to be charging the web content package, not the full client side package.

I don't think that's correct - as the article says, the bonus tools are part of what you get as a subscriber:

Randy Buehler]And here’ wrote:

And here’s what you get if you are a subscriber:

* Access to the pages where PDFs of Dragon and Dungeon can be downloaded (including new articles three times per week and monthly full issue compilations).
* Access to the pages where Bonus Tools are launched (currently the Ability Generator and the Encounter Builder, soon to include a Monster Builder as well).
* Access to the D&D Compendium detail pages.

I'd asked whether the bonus tools were going to be free for use, and the answer was that they'd be part of the subscription. So, really, you can say that the money is for the magazines and the bonus tools are a throw in, but you can't get either without paying, so...

Or did you mean the Game table, Builder, and Visualizer?

bshugg wrote:

So if we want the great product down the road, we have to show we will drop a couple bucks on the product that’s probably not worth that much now. It’s a mostly token amount for each customer so why not give it a shot. I’ve wasted $5 on a heck of a lot worse than this. Heck pulling cash out of an ATM costs that much and you get NOTHING for it. Mize as well enjoy reading stuff for the game we all love!

You may be correct about the reasoning, and I'm with you in that I'm a huge 4E fan (in fact, it's totally ignited my love of D&D).

However, I just can't get behind the "pay now even though it's not worth it" idea. I don't see the benefit in paying for something that -- to me, at least, and of course YMMV -- isn't worth it at the time the money is being spent.

Mock wrote:

I don't think that's correct - as the article says, the bonus tools are part of what you get as a subscriber:



I'd asked whether the bonus tools were going to be free for use, and the answer was that they'd be part of the subscription. So, really, you can say that the money is for the magazines and the bonus tools are a throw in, but you can't get either without paying, so...

Or did you mean the Game table, Builder, and Visualizer?

I was saying that you are paying for the magazines and the bonus tools are just something that is thrown in, hence the word bonus. I really don't think that anyone is going to pay for the web content just to access the binus tools. I honestly suspect that the bonus tools are just a side project that they give to programmers who are waiting on something else before they can get back to work on their main project.

WolfStar76 wrote:

There have been indications that they may sell pre-made VTT versions of published adventures, complete with tiles, v-minis, etc you need to run the adventure online. No costs have been mentioned yet, however, but it sounds like they intend to include store-bought modules, as well as Dungeon Magazine adventures.

There's much hope in the RPGA that our adventures will be available as well.

Thank you for answering. I really hope that they'll do that as it will save me a lot of preparation-time, paper and printer cartridges.

WolfStar76 wrote:

So long as your sharing is for use with your group, you're (probably) okay under personal use (IANAL).

However, it sounds like you may be advocating "sharing" with the public at large, and that would NOT be okay. It may be a fine line, but it's one to tread lightly.

No Wolfstar76 (1976? ), sharing with the public isn't illegal unless multiple copies are made.

Scenario 1: I own a cafe and decides to put out Dragon and Dungeon magazines for patrons to browse...that's not illegal.

Scenario 2: Someone from my community gaming shop saw that I have a copy of the Dragon and asked me to lent it and so I did...that's not illegal.

Scenario 3: If I throw away my copy of Dragon magazine and some stranger picks it up and keeps it to read, that's not illegal too.

Anyway, you get my point :D

PS: Hence, with this electronic copy, I believe that the agreement is I can at least print out one copy of it and I should be able to apply any of the scenarios above to this "hard" copy too. Scenario 3 is a bit more tricky isn't it?

PPS: Anyway, I'm not going to share with the "public" at large...we have our common group library (although it seem that I own nearly 90% of all the books)

erleni wrote:

First of all I'd like to say that I love 4th edition and 5$ a month are not a problem from my side (in the poll WotC made some time ago I declared I was willing to pay 15$/month for the full package).
Before reading DI7 I was planning to subscribe for a full year immediately, but now I'm a bit worried. The most interesting app for me is the Character Builder. Most of my players have problems in taking care of all the number crunching and sometimes I do as well. Having an app that makes all the calculations and updates, especially when you switch magical gear and then prints all the power cards will really be great.
Dungeon Builder and VTT are also veeeery interesting (today we use Dundjinni and minis, but my plan is to buy an LCD flat tv, maybe a 32" or 36" and connect a PC to it in order to get the full benefit of lighting effects, saving space on the table, etc.).
I'm still willing to subscribe for one year but only after the beta of the character builder comes out. This will give me the feeling that DDI is really going forward and I'll gladly volunteer for beta-testing.
Anyway I can't see how a beta limited to three levels will help playtesting. For example we'll not be able to playtest multiclassing. The first multiclassing swap feat is available at 4th level, paragon multiclassing only at 11th. I can already see that most of my players will multiclass to some extent so that is crucial.
I will prefer to have access to a full-beta (over the 30 levels) which needs me to be logged in to DDI in order to level up, so that WotC can be sure that I'm paying but at least I get a full peek on the stuff. This will also help WotC in debugging.

In the meantime I have two questions about the VTT:
1) If I buy an adventure (say Keep on the Shadowfell), will I be able to go on the VTT and load it or will I have to recreate it using the Dungeon Builder (I'm doing that for KotS with Dundjinni and it takes a lot of time)?
2) When an adventure is posted on Dungeon or Dragon will we be able to go into VTT and load the maps directly?

I hope this doesn't sound like I'm whining since I have a sincere interest in DDI.

"No no, quite the opposite, THIS is constructive criticism... There have been other shining examples of it, even by the 'anti's. See, the thing that really makes the whining unbearable is the sense of entitlement. 'We DESERVE these magazines for free, even though you are paying people to write for it, we don't want to pay you to pass those ideas to us. WotC should shoulder the finances...' How is, 'I don't want to pay' any less greedy than 'WotC will be asking you to pay for THEIR content soon'?"

Zaukrie wrote:

Actually, research shows that whining and complaining actually increases stress.

As for the value:

I think Dragon and Dungeon are worth $60 to me. Others disagree, and have every right to. Value is highly personal. However, asking people to pay for this is not greedy, or wrong, or evil or anything. They are asking you to pay for content, content that they are paying their employees to make. If you don't value it, don't buy it. But, just a question. I'd think that the content is easily worth 2 splat books (actually probably worth 4 or 5 or more if the adventures are good). So, I see value. Charging for this doe not impact, in any negative way, WotC's ability to deliver the other tools. In fact, as Bshugg points out, they likely get more breathing room to do the other tools if they are generating money.

I share your frustrations about the tools. I used to make a career of mocking WotC and their "IT work" on ENWorld and Hordelings. But, they have made some progress. The reviews of the character builder that was demoed at Gen Con were universally positive. The tools will come when they come. In the mean time, either you are getting value out of the books, or not. You are getting value out of the content of Dragon and Dungeon, or not. It's your choice to pay for those or not, but asking for money for product, that's what makes products avaiable in the first place.

"Exactly. This should be the end of the conversation."

The_Roc wrote:

And $4.95 is per month for two online publications is too much? $2.48 an issue...really? .

And here is the crux of the issue. I don't believe I am paying for two publications. I believe that I am paying for one. If it was two publications, they would be pricing it differently. They would be giving customers an option of paying for one or the other, or getting both.

As they are not, then it is indeed one publication, and that is still not worth 8 dollars an issue in an electronic format! Knocking off 3 dollars an issue for a year subscription still to high, because it isn't worth 8 dollars to begin with! You see the problem here?

I can get the same word count for significantly less elsewhere. I make more content then I get out of the magazines. While there is an interest in keeping in touch with developments, the Forums will keep me informed of that quite well.

I am just simply not interested in paying Printing Prices for Electronic Documents. If you feel that it's a fair price, I feel for you, but it's definatly your opinion to have. I just simply don't feel it.

Kensan_Oni wrote:

And here is the crux of the issue. I don't believe I am paying for two publications. I believe that I am paying for one. If it was two publications, they would be pricing it differently. They would be giving customers an option of paying for one or the other, or getting both.

As they are not, then it is indeed one publication, and that is still not worth 8 dollars an issue in an electronic format! [...]

I can get the same word count for significantly less elsewhere. I make more content then I get out of the magazines. While there is an interest in keeping in touch with developments, the Forums will keep me informed of that quite well.

I think debating about whether it is one or two pubs will probably not be productive. Both perspectives are reasonable. Personally, I think that the price is reasonable given that I can now search them, easily copy and modify content from them, and I don't have to explain to my wife how I need more room for my 301st magazine.

I get that people like the hardcopy magazines, but each is a different value proposition and I happen to prefer online. And I also think we have to be realistic--the era of the printed magazine is on the decline (I'm sure they'll be around for years though). Competition is fierce and production costs are high.

To me, the bigger problem is that the paywalls they are creating are very ham-handed and show little understanding of either community creation or the various types of consumers that make-up of gaming groups. Duum982 has a good example of this. I think there are many people that are going to want access to various pieces of the content and tools and forcing them into very narrow plans that make them buy a bunch of stuff they don't want is going to shrink their market and that approach is somewhat of an out-dated business strategy, IMO.

mouselim wrote:

I noticed that these community spokeperson are always for WotC and agrees wholehearted on their policies. There's not a statement that agrees with the public. Is it because they are paid by WotC or they can't speak out against their policies? If so, then next time, we can simply just ignore their postings

(Assuming that you are talking about VCLs and NGs/FGs, and not WotC_**** people)

To expand on what WolfStar76 and AsmodeusLore said.

There are only a couple of rules that VCLs and NGs have that are musts to follow.

[list=1]

Kyros_Tachyus wrote:

Yeah, there isn't a reason to get sore at the VCLs over stuff like this. In general I find them to be very level headed and on top of the most recent news when it comes to their area of... VCLness i guess?

I'd take a good look at anything they say, because they're generally on top of it. So don't get PO'ed at the VCLs... they're "on our side" if you'd like to look at it that way.

:fight!:

VCLs (and to a lesser extent, FGs and NGs) have to satisfy two groups of people.

The first is CM. We have to assist them in keeping the forums running good. We are asked to encourage discussion, grow the community and do whatever we can.

The other group of people we have to satisfy is the other users. We are your link to CM. If you have concerns, you can bring them to us and we will do what we can to try to solve them. If you have questions, we will try (not always succeed, mind you) to find out the answer, or direct you towards resources that can help you figure it out.

Personally, I always try my best to understand any side that is presented. I do understand the people that feel that DDi is a rip off/bait and switch/a waste of money and resources. I understand the arguments, I just don't agree with them.

southernmagnus wrote:

That being said, an incomplete DDI with a full subscription fee is disappointing.

No reason to be disappointed, a full fee is not being charged for a part offer.
Only a part of full fee will/is to be paid for part of the planed full DDI offer.

It is not a full fee just about half of a full fee of what would be charged if everything was ready now.

Now you might want full fee to be as low as the part fee, clearly others have expressed that type of pricing, however the current offer is for web content, not everything.