Community

Hi folks,

Setting this feedback thread in advance for Digital Insider #18, due to go live tomorrow.

After mention was made of the new version of the builder to download 'this time next week', can an exact date/time be mentioned?

SoulCatcher78 wrote:

Wonder who's writing it now?

Bill Slavicsek, I guess that gives some indication about internal changes.

One of the better Insiders despite ultimately telling us little new info.

Boolean expression support for the compendium is good. Search by Source for Monsters and Items is good. My favourite though is the "Set tab with the most results as the default displayed for keyword search return." Now if only they would put a log in on the compendium itself (especially the "You need to log in to see this" screen), and break Magic Items down by their type (Weapon, Armor, Head etc) instead of lumping them all together (how they ever decided that was useful I have no idea).

As far as D&D: Tiny Adventures on Facebook: Is there going to be any more development done on it?

It's nice and there don't seem to be any major bugs, but without new content it's slowly going to wither and die. I'm starting to lose interest in it, having reached the 7th generation of characters. Would love to see new content.

It's a really nice little app. Would hate to see it just lying there... idle.

Invokers are summoners!
I knew summoning wasn't gone just because it provided multiple actions like people on the board said.

Tyranthraxus wrote:

After mention was made of the new version of the builder to download 'this time next week', can an exact date/time be mentioned?

Can someone please provide the new link where i can download the updated character builder?

they keep mentioning a version with the martial powers in there and with other stuff. i really just want this version for now. anyone?

The posted screenshots of the 30th level character sheet and power cards are quite disheartening to me. If this is the latest build then it clearly shows that they haven't made progress in creating a usable output output format for either the character sheet or the power cards. This ranger has 10 feats/features that grant conditional attack (3) or damage (7) bonuses -- and for most it is entirely impossible to figure out what these bonuses are or when to apply then from the information on the displayed.

The power cards have room for 3 lines which is no where near enough room for the conditionals. In this case only the Hunter's Quarry damage and Prime Shot attack bonus are fully visible. The line for Prime Quarry is truncated, and the line for Improved Prime Shot is barely visible (and it should be unnecessary in the first place since it just increments the Prime Shot bonus). Six different conditional damage bonuses aren't displayed (Called Shot, Prime Slayer, Intuitive Hunter, Hunter's Advantage, Sneak Attack, and Bleeding Precision).

The character sheet also does not provide the necessary space to display the information -- they are grouped together in either the class features or feats sections where most of the text isn't visible because there is no room. A ton of space is wasted with duplicate information and information that isn't useful when playing. It is important to document the list of features and feats that you have but it is not worthy of the front page. What is needed is abbreviated text grouped in to subject specific sections (such as attack, damage, other), so they can be quickly referenced during combat.

Kishus wrote:

Fyi, its updated with some additional stuff right now, barbarian class included.

Confirmed! Get to downloading before they open the beta and slooooooooooooow us down, lol.

bonHomme wrote:

Looking forward to updates on the Table and Dungeon Builder.

I'm pretty sure they're growing cobwebs on them somewhere. Ah... more delays it seems for the CB. Not going to be out in January anymore eh? Well, maybe maybe not. Before we had a general timeframe and now... nothing.

TufRat wrote:

Yeah...I really feel like this community has been through this before...with etools. So far it is mostly vaporware.

Even the much-touted character builder is still only a beta version and still only shows 3 levels..

Even worse, it seems like Dungeon and Dragon are degrading into pathetically blatant marketing tools. This entire DDI package is really losing its shine.

Typically, it isn't my place, as a community leader/guide to question people's reasoning for posts. I really do believe we're all entitled our opinions, and even our interpretation of facts as we see fit - though I think it will come as no surprise that I often disagree with the more negative voices around here.

That all said, I have to question the reasoning behind these kinds of "vaporware" posts at this time. Perhaps I merely have a different definition of vaporware than you (or even most others), so let's start by setting a bar here.

To me, a project is vaporware if it's a project that we hear much about - but there's never ANY evidence of the product/project going anywhere. I'll site the legendary "Phantom" game console as a prime example. Short version - the system has been in development since 2002, and even the Keyboard/Mouse combo that was supposed to come from all that development hasn't been on the market yet. Duke Nukem Forever is another example.

To counter that, yes DDI has been plauged with delays - but the company hasn't been silent on the progress being made. No, they didn't (at first) communicate especially well either. What communication we DO have we can thank this very community for (with special thanks to MB, and the departed Solice). I digress.

For the last 19 weeks, we've been getting regular updates - some have been "crunchy" with details of what's being worked on, others have been "we know you're still listening, but we've nothing much to say".

In addition to this there's been a sample of all three applications GenCon 2008, and at PAX this year. The Character Builder I'm fairly certain went above level 3 at those shows. The Visualizer let you make a few characters (not all the models were installed/loaded/created yet), and I even got a hands-on demo of the Game Table from WotC_DM himself (plug: you can read my impressions of the software as it looked at that time in my GenCon2008 Blog right here in the forums).

I suppose, my counter, then is that where you see vaporware, I see the dead opposite. I see weekly updates - if not in detail, at least to let us know they're still working away. I see beta tests that are progressing. I see a company that brings it software to major conventions to get feedback and to let people play with the software themselves.

So, I suppose my question is, where do you draw the line that makes you call this vaporware? I'll confess, it hits a nerve with me. I have the impression (right or wrong) that there are more than a few nay-sayers who toss the term out so they can be the "cool kid" in the room who is a doubter just so he can stand out. Just so if the product *does* go belly up, they can be the guy who was right all along. After all, nobody calls out the doubters when things go right. It's the safe bet to take.

Yeah, I know, it's a crappy opinion to have of others - and before others call me for baiting or trolling, I don't mean to apply this definition to anyone in particular, it's just a "gut feeling" I have based on the tone of some of the "vaporware" cries.

Instead, I'd really like to hear solid REASONS for why people believe this is a vaporware product at this point. It's easy to draw a line to past failures and say "see! They screwed up before!"

People often forget, however, than now isn't then. People AND companies learn from their mistakes and their mis-steps. I think WotC is being very forthcoming with us (*almost* as much as we have the right to reasonably expect - which is still less than we want [reasonably or not] ).

This is a great sign, if you ask me. It's the companies that clam up that are the ones that fall to vaporware more often than not.

(note - I also, respectfully, disagree that Dragon/Dungeon are advertising, but others have made better posts on that topic than I can, and I think it really comes down to opinion at the end of the day, so I'll not open that can of worms here).

Hmm, vaporware... I used the term early on.

There currently appears to be two measures of what can be called vaporware these days.


Product not released on time.
Product released that does not do everything promised. Time is not a factor, a less then promoted released on time still has software non existent. Mastertools becoming E-tools is an example of both time delay and less then promised application.

Clearly the Product was not released on time and even current plans have changed from announced plans (10 day free trail of the entire application, now becoming only 3 levels). By this test current offering does cross the line of being possible vaporware.

The second test of course can not be applied until all of them are out of beta and them compared to the release notes to see if they meet or exceed those.

I don't mind people complaining about products or anything, but some of the "accusations" being made seem to be a little bit over the top. Calling an upcoming release "vaporware" is a little more serious than perhaps some people understand, and in this case it isn't entirely appropriate. It typically implies dishonest practices, or at the very least, unrealistic promises and a lack of professionalism, and quite honestly I haven't really seen either in this case.

Sure, the product seems to be lagging a little behind schedule. However, I think that some people's expectations around here are based on inferences of promises that were never actually made and unrealistic expectations that they have set for themselves.

Kentinal wrote:

Hmm, vaporware... I used the term early on.

There currently appears to be two measures of what can be called vaporware these days.


Product not released on time.
Product released that does not do everything promised. Time is not a factor, a less then promoted released on time still has software non existent. Mastertools becoming E-tools is an example of both time delay and less then promised application.

This is a gross misunderstanding of the term.

There is a significant difference between "not released on time" and "vaporware". For example, The Force Unleashed was released nearly a full year behind schedule. Does that make it vaporware? No. Each delay was accounted for, and Lucasarts was careful to release specific demonstrations of measurable progress that had been made both publicly and to various media outlets. At no point was there any doubt that the game would be released.

There is also a difference between "not meeting expectations" and "vaporware". Both Fable and Fable II failed to live up to many people's expectations, but even their detractors would not call those products "vaporware".

Vaporware is a product that is announced and significantly hyped (either by the company's marketing department or the industry itself) that fails to continue making measurable developmental progress. They are games that are announced, generally with a lot of fanfare, show a lot of early potential, slowly lose steam, consistently misses deadlines or fails to show any measurable progress, and then eventually either fall off of the planet, never to be heard from again, or is released in an incomplete state that doesn't deliver the core experience promised.

Game Table has been announced and hyped, and it has shown some early potential. Progress has been slow, but typically measurable. There have been changes, but mostly in pricing and distribution rather than core functionality. At this point, there is no indication that it will not be released, nor is there any indication that it won't live up to its core expectations.

Cailte wrote:

Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product. The term implies unwarranted optimism, an as yet unannounced abandonment of a project, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility. However, most vaporware would not be considered a hoax since the makers have a genuine intention to create their product, even if it ultimately never materializes. Products with unspecified release dates or long development times that outwardly demonstrate regular, verifiable progress in production are not normally labelled vaporware.

Its easy to see where DDI falls into this defintion and where it might yet escape it; but currently DDI is more vaporware than not, and I'm a believer at this point in the porject....

Personally, I have a hard time understanding where all these "Vaporware" cries are coming from. Certain aspects of DDi were never promised on a specific timeline. Yes, DDi was supposed to be launched with 4th Edition. Technically, it was... with the demos of the online versions of Dungeon/Dragon magazines and the compendium. However, to my knowledge, there hasn't ever been an official release date announced for either the Character Builder/Visualizer or the Game Table. If someone has a documented release date anywhere, I welcome that information. But I have kept up with things pretty closely, and I haven't heard one.

What I have heard, repeatedly, is that they aren't rushing the product to market. I have heard, as of GenCon '08, that there were absolutely no expectations that the Character Builder or Game Table would be available this year. Now I am hearing that the Character Builder will be ready in early 2009. This meets the expectations that I have had.

So, can the client applications of DDi rightfully be called vaporware? Not unless someone can bring to light targeted release dates for that aspect of DDi that have come and gone (I am not aware of any, but wouldn't mind being proven wrong). I understand that it was (mis)understood that DDi would roll out all at once, but that was far from an actual promise and was based on perhaps overzealous marketing of DDi. From what I have seen, the targeted release date for the client applications is still a month or so away and the product is already in open beta and largely bug free. To me, that seems like a product that is running just a little bit late, but hardly inexcusably so.

So what. We know they've missed that deadline. NOthing can be done about that now. The question is, is what they have "worth" it. I am consistently amazed at ho some people take these missed deadlines as some kind of personal attack or something. They missed the deadlines, we all know that, move on. Continuing to attack them does no one any good.

Its odd to me that people believe that just because a demo appeared that this product is going to come out. I've heard Wolfstar say that this is what makes this different from the e-tools issue.

That ISN"T true. I distinctly remember seeing a shiny new CD in my 3.0 PHB that showed lots of promise (not to mention cool background music). This was something that was really exciting to me. I looked at all the things that were supposed to come with the CD and patiently waited. And waited. And waited some more.

Nothing really become of any of it. Wow... that sounds similar doesn't it.

A demo with lots of promise. Hints at great products to come. This demo was even more complete than the CB is now. At least THAT had all 20 levels. Tell me how DDi is NOT seeming like vaporware now. Because I don't see where you're making the distinction.

And as to the argument with Dragon and Dungeon being a part of DDi... we had it before. It was there before, and it was successful. All they did with that was transfer it over to DDi and cut out a portion of the work that went into it.

Don't get me wrong... I want to be wrong about this. But I don't want to be wrong about this in December of 2010 when all the tools are finally out. I wouldn't be surprised to see them cut out 2 of their major projects after the CB is finished. This way they can justify and continue to charge the $8 per month that they are ($5 if you're a year long subscriber) and "be cool" with it.

I was wondering. Is there going to be a way to add content to the Character builder? Several other companies have already started putting out information on additional classes and races, I was wondering if that information will be put allowed to be put into the CB. Just asking.

Zaukrie wrote:

So what. We know they've missed that deadline. NOthing can be done about that now. The question is, is what they have "worth" it. I am consistently amazed at ho some people take these missed deadlines as some kind of personal attack or something. They missed the deadlines, we all know that, move on. Continuing to attack them does no one any good.

Many people take references to the missed release dates as personal attacks. And they use that to justify personal attacks on people making the references to the missed deadlines.
We are now also seeing a regular phenomenom of assertions that no such release dates ever existed, and using that to justify making personal attacks on anyone who references them.

Lomerell Dawnbringer wrote:

I check about once a month for D&DI since buying RULEBOOKS IN JUNE THAT STATED, "LEVEL UP YOUR GAME HERE".

Each time I check, I found

#1. (Up until a few months ago) nothing but digital magazines. I won't argue about their quality, but I will say I have had very little use for ANY of this content to date. I would pay for it if I got a PAPER copy I could read on the sofa or over breakfast instead of hunched over my monitor without absorbing all the printing costs myself (thus TWICE paying for the SAME product).

#2. A company who has the UTTER AUDACITY to CHARGE its MOST LOYAL customers to BETA TEST a project.

And ... *checks calendar* it's my December check for D&DI to give them their monthly shot to win me as a customer and... oh look... there's still no software ready.

I tried in November, I tried in October.

You'll see me on the board again in January, again wondering where the software is.

This is my own fault; fool me once, and it's July. Fool me twice, and it's August. What month is this?

AA's definition of insanity is "doing the same thing and expecting a different result." Yes, I must be CRAZY to keep returning to this website expecting a PRODUCT.

I feel about the same as you do. Theres only one reason I'm paying for DDi now, and its so 12 people can use it. Whats $60/12... oh yeah... $5.

And WOTC might have had 12 checks of 90 something dollars in the mail if only they had given us a finished product when they were saying they would until a SINGLE MONTH BEFORE RELEASE. Whats 90x12? oh... $1080. What a difference having your stuff prepared makes... about $1020 difference.

haferka wrote:

Character Builder Problem..

Weapon Mastery Feats (Dragon 368) are not listed in the Multiclass feat section. - Thus you are not properly restricted to a single multiclass feat.. I could choose Bola & Whip & Rogue...

have you reported this bug?