Yeah...I really feel like this community has been through this before...with etools. So far it is mostly vaporware.
Even the much-touted character builder is still only a beta version and still only shows 3 levels..
Even worse, it seems like Dungeon and Dragon are degrading into pathetically blatant marketing tools. This entire DDI package is really losing its shine.
Typically, it isn't my place, as a community leader/guide to question people's reasoning for posts. I really do believe we're all entitled our opinions, and even our interpretation of facts as we see fit - though I think it will come as no surprise that I often disagree with the more negative voices around here.
That all said, I have to question the reasoning behind these kinds of "vaporware" posts at this time. Perhaps I merely have a different definition of vaporware than you (or even most others), so let's start by setting a bar here.
To me, a project is vaporware if it's a project that we hear much about - but there's never ANY evidence of the product/project going anywhere. I'll site the legendary "Phantom" game console as a prime example. Short version - the system has been in development since 2002, and even the Keyboard/Mouse combo that was supposed to come from all that development hasn't been on the market yet. Duke Nukem Forever is another example.
To counter that, yes DDI has been plauged with delays - but the company hasn't been silent on the progress being made. No, they didn't (at first) communicate especially well either. What communication we DO have we can thank this very community for (with special thanks to MB, and the departed Solice). I digress.
For the last 19 weeks, we've been getting regular updates - some have been "crunchy" with details of what's being worked on, others have been "we know you're still listening, but we've nothing much to say".
In addition to this there's been a sample of all three applications GenCon 2008, and at PAX this year. The Character Builder I'm fairly certain went above level 3 at those shows. The Visualizer let you make a few characters (not all the models were installed/loaded/created yet), and I even got a hands-on demo of the Game Table from WotC_DM himself (plug: you can read my impressions of the software as it looked at that time in my GenCon2008 Blog right here in the forums).
I suppose, my counter, then is that where you see vaporware, I see the dead opposite. I see weekly updates - if not in detail, at least to let us know they're still working away. I see beta tests that are progressing. I see a company that brings it software to major conventions to get feedback and to let people play with the software themselves.
So, I suppose my question is, where do you draw the line that makes you call this vaporware? I'll confess, it hits a nerve with me. I have the impression (right or wrong) that there are more than a few nay-sayers who toss the term out so they can be the "cool kid" in the room who is a doubter just so he can stand out. Just so if the product *does* go belly up, they can be the guy who was right all along. After all, nobody calls out the doubters when things go right. It's the safe bet to take.
Yeah, I know, it's a crappy opinion to have of others - and before others call me for baiting or trolling, I don't mean to apply this definition to anyone in particular, it's just a "gut feeling" I have based on the tone of some of the "vaporware" cries.
Instead, I'd really like to hear solid REASONS for why people believe this is a vaporware product at this point. It's easy to draw a line to past failures and say "see! They screwed up before!"
People often forget, however, than now isn't then. People AND companies learn from their mistakes and their mis-steps. I think WotC is being very forthcoming with us (*almost* as much as we have the right to reasonably expect - which is still less than we want [reasonably or not] ).
This is a great sign, if you ask me. It's the companies that clam up that are the ones that fall to vaporware more often than not.
(note - I also, respectfully, disagree that Dragon/Dungeon are advertising, but others have made better posts on that topic than I can, and I think it really comes down to opinion at the end of the day, so I'll not open that can of worms here).
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN DDi Guide Interested in judging D&D at PAX EAST? Fill out this PDF [Link fixed - 2/8/10].
Typically, it isn't my place, as a community leader/guide to question people's reasoning for posts. I really do believe we're all entitled our opinions, and even our interpretation of facts as we see fit - though I think it will come as no surprise that I often disagree with the more negative voices around here.
That all said, I have to question the reasoning behind these kinds of "vaporware" posts at this time. Perhaps I merely have a different definition of vaporware than you (or even most others), so let's start by setting a bar here.
To me, a project is vaporware if it's a project that we hear much about - but there's never ANY evidence of the product/project going anywhere. I'll site the legendary "Phantom" game console as a prime example. Short version - the system has been in development since 2002, and even the Keyboard/Mouse combo that was supposed to come from all that development hasn't been on the market yet. Duke Nukem Forever is another example.
This has come up multiple times in the past, and the generally accepted definition of vaporware has still not changed since the last time you, and other VCLs, challenged people for calling DDI vaporware.
Vaporware often comes with considerable evidence of its future appearance. This can be anything from demos to screen shots to product packaging mock ups. The deciding factor is not whether there is any preliminary showing, but whether the final product is ever released.
"Technically" the DDI is not vaporware until it is officially cancelled.
Until the final full product is released, particularly with the current delays and the past history that you want removed from consideration, there is nothing outrageous in people expressing an opinion that it is vaporware. (Or at least least looks, acts, and quacks like vaporware.) This is even more likely with the recent developments that suggest the DDI has been completely outsourced.
And until WotC establishes a history of producing digital products on time and of appropriate quality, people will continually default to expecting any product that is even a day late as yet another example of pending vaporware. Meeting "new and improved" deadlines on a segment of a product that is already more than 6 months late does not contribute to estabilishing such a history.
There currently appears to be two measures of what can be called vaporware these days.
Product not released on time. Product released that does not do everything promised. Time is not a factor, a less then promoted released on time still has software non existent. Mastertools becoming E-tools is an example of both time delay and less then promised application.
Clearly the Product was not released on time and even current plans have changed from announced plans (10 day free trail of the entire application, now becoming only 3 levels). By this test current offering does cross the line of being possible vaporware.
The second test of course can not be applied until all of them are out of beta and them compared to the release notes to see if they meet or exceed those.
Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product. The term implies unwarranted optimism, an as yet unannounced abandonment of a project, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility. However, most vaporware would not be considered a hoax since the makers have a genuine intention to create their product, even if it ultimately never materializes. Products with unspecified release dates or long development times that outwardly demonstrate regular, verifiable progress in production are not normally labelled vaporware.
Its easy to see where DDI falls into this defintion and where it might yet escape it; but currently DDI is more vaporware than not, and I'm a believer at this point in the porject....
I don't mind people complaining about products or anything, but some of the "accusations" being made seem to be a little bit over the top. Calling an upcoming release "vaporware" is a little more serious than perhaps some people understand, and in this case it isn't entirely appropriate. It typically implies dishonest practices, or at the very least, unrealistic promises and a lack of professionalism, and quite honestly I haven't really seen either in this case.
Sure, the product seems to be lagging a little behind schedule. However, I think that some people's expectations around here are based on inferences of promises that were never actually made and unrealistic expectations that they have set for themselves.
Kentinal wrote:
Hmm, vaporware... I used the term early on.
There currently appears to be two measures of what can be called vaporware these days.
Product not released on time. Product released that does not do everything promised. Time is not a factor, a less then promoted released on time still has software non existent. Mastertools becoming E-tools is an example of both time delay and less then promised application.
This is a gross misunderstanding of the term.
There is a significant difference between "not released on time" and "vaporware". For example, The Force Unleashed was released nearly a full year behind schedule. Does that make it vaporware? No. Each delay was accounted for, and Lucasarts was careful to release specific demonstrations of measurable progress that had been made both publicly and to various media outlets. At no point was there any doubt that the game would be released.
There is also a difference between "not meeting expectations" and "vaporware". Both Fable and Fable II failed to live up to many people's expectations, but even their detractors would not call those products "vaporware".
Vaporware is a product that is announced and significantly hyped (either by the company's marketing department or the industry itself) that fails to continue making measurable developmental progress. They are games that are announced, generally with a lot of fanfare, show a lot of early potential, slowly lose steam, consistently misses deadlines or fails to show any measurable progress, and then eventually either fall off of the planet, never to be heard from again, or is released in an incomplete state that doesn't deliver the core experience promised.
Game Table has been announced and hyped, and it has shown some early potential. Progress has been slow, but typically measurable. There have been changes, but mostly in pricing and distribution rather than core functionality. At this point, there is no indication that it will not be released, nor is there any indication that it won't live up to its core expectations.
Cailte wrote:
Vaporware is a term used to describe a software or hardware product that is announced by a developer well in advance of release, but which then fails to emerge after having well exceeded the period of development time that was initially claimed or would normally be expected for the development cycle of a similar product. The term implies unwarranted optimism, an as yet unannounced abandonment of a project, or sometimes even deception; that is, it may imply that the announcer knows that product development is in too early a stage to support responsible statements about its completion date, feature set, or even feasibility. However, most vaporware would not be considered a hoax since the makers have a genuine intention to create their product, even if it ultimately never materializes. Products with unspecified release dates or long development times that outwardly demonstrate regular, verifiable progress in production are not normally labelled vaporware.
Its easy to see where DDI falls into this defintion and where it might yet escape it; but currently DDI is more vaporware than not, and I'm a believer at this point in the porject....
Personally, I have a hard time understanding where all these "Vaporware" cries are coming from. Certain aspects of DDi were never promised on a specific timeline. Yes, DDi was supposed to be launched with 4th Edition. Technically, it was... with the demos of the online versions of Dungeon/Dragon magazines and the compendium. However, to my knowledge, there hasn't ever been an official release date announced for either the Character Builder/Visualizer or the Game Table. If someone has a documented release date anywhere, I welcome that information. But I have kept up with things pretty closely, and I haven't heard one.
So, can the client applications of DDi rightfully be called vaporware? Not unless someone can bring to light targeted release dates for that aspect of DDi that have come and gone (I am not aware of any, but wouldn't mind being proven wrong). I understand that it was (mis)understood that DDi would roll out all at once, but that was far from an actual promise and was based on perhaps overzealous marketing of DDi. From what I have seen, the targeted release date for the client applications is still a month or so away and the product is already in open beta and largely bug free. To me, that seems like a product that is running just a little bit late, but hardly inexcusably so.
So, can the client applications of DDi rightfully be called vaporware? Not unless someone can bring to light targeted release dates for that aspect of DDi that have come and gone (I am not aware of any, but wouldn't mind being proven wrong).
Here is one setting time line.
RENTON, Wash.-(Business Wire)-August 16, 2007 - Whether you storm a mad wizard's tower every week or haven't delved into a dungeon since you had a mullet and a mean pair of parachute pants, one thing is certain, millions of D&D(R) players worldwide have anticipated the coming of 4th Edition for many years. Today Wizards of the Coast confirms that the new edition will launch in May 2008 with the release of the D&D Player's Handbook(R). A pop culture icon, DUNGEONS & DRAGONS is the #1 tabletop roleplaying game in the world and is revered by legions of gamers of all ages.
The 4th Edition DUNGEONS & DRAGONS game includes elements familiar to current D&D players, including illustrated rulebooks and pre-painted plastic miniatures. Also releasing next year will be new Web-based tools and online community forums through the brand new DUNGEONS & DRAGONS Insider (D&D Insider(TM)) digital offering. D&D Insider lowers the barriers of entry for new players while simultaneously offering the depth of play that appeals to veteran players.
The 4th Edition rules emphasize faster game play, offer exciting new character options, and reduce the amount of "prep time" needed to run the game. D&D Insider includes a character creator that lets players design and equip their D&D characters, dungeon- and adventure-building tools for Dungeon Masters, online magazine content, and a digital game table that lets you play 24/7 on the Internet - the perfect option for anyone who can't find time to get together.
"We've been gathering player feedback for eight years," said Bill Slavicsek, R&D director of roleplaying and miniatures games at Wizards of the Coast. "Fourth Edition streamlines parts of the D&D game that are too complex while enhancing the overall play experience. At its heart, it's still a tabletop game experience. However, D&D Insider makes it easier for players to create characters, run their games, and interact with the rest of the D&D community."
Wizards of the Coast will release two 4th Edition preview books in December and January - Wizards Presents: Classes and Races(TM) and Wizards Presents: Worlds and Monsters(TM). The first live demos of 4th Edition will happen at the D&D EXPERIENCE(TM) gaming convention in Washington, D.C., in February 2008. The full scope of 4th Edition books, miniatures, and adventures will be available in the spring and summer of 2008.
Since its first release in 1974, the fantasy roleplaying game DUNGEONS & DRAGONS has taken millions of players on imaginary adventures of epic scale. Today, D&D is universally regarded as the original game that created the roleplaying game category, and the inspiration for generations of game designers. D&D is enjoyed by millions of players worldwide, while countless more remember it with fond nostalgia. For more information, visit our digital newsroom at www.wizards.com/gencon2007.
So what. We know they've missed that deadline. NOthing can be done about that now. The question is, is what they have "worth" it. I am consistently amazed at ho some people take these missed deadlines as some kind of personal attack or something. They missed the deadlines, we all know that, move on. Continuing to attack them does no one any good.
So what. We know they've missed that deadline. NOthing can be done about that now. The question is, is what they have "worth" it. I am consistently amazed at ho some people take these missed deadlines as some kind of personal attack or something. They missed the deadlines, we all know that, move on. Continuing to attack them does no one any good.
*blink* The last was about a date certain and if tool not released this year currently deserve the title vaporware.
Not sure how you call it an attack, unless use of the word "vaporware" you consider an attack. WotC well knows they did not meet stated goals, this is not news to them. The reply was directed to Che who appears not to believe that there was a stated release date. I could dig up more, like that obscure post about DDI not being fully released with the core books as planed.
We can discuss also the aparent plans to outsource the tools again or anything else related to DDI and/or Insider #18
Its odd to me that people believe that just because a demo appeared that this product is going to come out. I've heard Wolfstar say that this is what makes this different from the e-tools issue.
That ISN"T true. I distinctly remember seeing a shiny new CD in my 3.0 PHB that showed lots of promise (not to mention cool background music). This was something that was really exciting to me. I looked at all the things that were supposed to come with the CD and patiently waited. And waited. And waited some more.
Nothing really become of any of it. Wow... that sounds similar doesn't it.
A demo with lots of promise. Hints at great products to come. This demo was even more complete than the CB is now. At least THAT had all 20 levels. Tell me how DDi is NOT seeming like vaporware now. Because I don't see where you're making the distinction.
And as to the argument with Dragon and Dungeon being a part of DDi... we had it before. It was there before, and it was successful. All they did with that was transfer it over to DDi and cut out a portion of the work that went into it.
Don't get me wrong... I want to be wrong about this. But I don't want to be wrong about this in December of 2010 when all the tools are finally out. I wouldn't be surprised to see them cut out 2 of their major projects after the CB is finished. This way they can justify and continue to charge the $8 per month that they are ($5 if you're a year long subscriber) and "be cool" with it.
Looking forward to updates on the Table and Dungeon Builder.
Out of all the apps coming, these one's really excite me. Don't get me wrong, I'm very grateful for all the work going on with the Character Builder, but I'm just really looking forward to the Dungeon Builder, especially.
