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Guivre wrote:

The reduced pricing is a good move. I'm willing to pay $8 a month for Dragon and Dungeon I think...

$4.95 a month for them sounds even better [...]

Five bucks a month is about what I can justify (assuming that I also plan to buy a book every three or four months), so I'm pretty happy with this.

Of all the things offered, though, I pretty much only want Dragon, so everything else I'm just subsidizing with my subscription. At this price, I don't mind, but I'd be annoyed if it went up to $10/month with the justification being something about the virtual gaming table tools.

The compendium is also basically useless to me, as it doesn't work when I don't have net access, and more importantly, because it's impossible to browse. (It might be handy during games, but since I game with a bunch of computer geeks, we game to get away from technology for a bit. What I want digital access for is DM prep time, and the compendium as it exists is very weak for that.) I am happy to pay for the books, but the idea of offering PDF versions to those who own the books for the cost of a cup of coffee needs to be revisited.

Is anyone from WotC listening to this thread?

Guivre wrote:

$4.95 a month for them sounds even better however the new pricing structure raises the question: If you pay for a year up front what will happen if the price goes up at some point during the year?

If you pay ahead for a year, your price is locked in for the extent of that time period, for that level of subscription. (in this case, the web-content option)

Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready.

I thought that we were going to be able to see and use these features before they were charged for! You know, sort of like testing the waters to see if they are even worth using? A 4 session/two week trial sounds good to me, but paying for it before even knowing how it works sounds kind of lame to me.

vitomancer3 wrote:

Wait, so is that price structure with the current array of products or is that the price structure for the current array + the other tools (such as the dungeon creator and virtual DnD table)?

This is the pricing for the "web-content only" subscription, which we saw a fair number of people request. Future pricing hasn't yet been announced.

Jamesmay1983 wrote:

One question I have about the subscription pricing options:
If someone really wasn't interested in the other DDI products, just the Dungeon and Dragon content, would they be able to subscribe to just that portion of DDI?

That's the intent of the Web-Content pricing plan that Randy announced at the $4.95 per month price point (for a year membership).

Gamer_Zer0 wrote:

If you pay ahead for a year, your price is locked in for the extent of that time period, for that level of subscription. (in this case, the web-content option)

In other words, you seem to be setting up different levels where you can buy access to one thing but not get the other stuff? (I could get access to Compendium and the online magazines, for example, but not have access to the other content like the Visualizer and Game Table.)

StrobeSML wrote:

In other words, you seem to be setting up different levels where you can buy access to one thing but not get the other stuff? (I could get access to Compendium and the online magazines, for example, but not have access to the other content like the Visualizer and Game Table.)

My interpretation of this announcement is that there will be two levels of subscription.

The web content only likely replaces the non Insiders able to purchase individual ezines, it is a little more then just the ezines but not that much more.

The second tier would be Game Table, etc that would include web content.

Perhaps they might consider a 3rd tier in between web content and DM tools, that being player tools.

A little more waiting until we know more.

kave99 wrote:

Not to be a spoil sport but what exactly would we get if we don't subscribe? After all most of the Dragon content was free up until 4th ed was announced, things like excerpts, web enhancements and other such things were really just adverts for the products and stuff that didn't fit into the book for space reasons. Long ago there where some statements that there would be content on the web sight that would not require a fee, is that still the plan or not?

Well there is some content you can get now without being logged in as an Insider. I would expect that would continue to be accessible, the odds are the same level of access would remain. Off hand I would guess the announcements of products, the editorials, perhaps Sage advice and ask Wizards. I have not tested every link to see which are available to everyone and only available to Insiders.

A couple of small bonus tools are ready to go live so you guys can mess around with them. The Ability Generator is useful for playing around with new characters. Meanwhile if you’re a DM, the Encounter Generator might be quite useful to you depending on your style. In addition, we’ve got a monster building tool in development right now that we hope will be ready before the Insider free trial ends.

Where?

Our current plan is to start charging for subscriptions before we have the client applications ready. That means the initial Insider subscription package will include exactly those parts that are currently in free trial mode:

You mean you are going to charge for the free trial?????

Please give me your definition of the word "free".

The current version of the Dungeon Builder is mostly done, but it’s only truly useful if you have the Game Table so you can load up your dungeon and see it, 3D terrain tiles and all.

Why? Did you decide to discard all use for this for those people not wanting to use it in conjunction with Game Table? What happened to the non-subscriber version that would let you make tiles and print maps that has a better interface than the existing tile builder javascript mess?

The Character Builder and the Character Visualizer are our current priority when it comes to the suite of client applications. Each will be available for the public to try out at Gen Con

Meaningless to me. Still says to me that all contact with these items will be subjective views of those who are already just excited as they are at a con, but not a real chance for the people that would be most likely to use them, those that cannot travel thus the reason behind DDI and Game Table, to look at them at all.

Well it has been a year since first being mentioned, so by GenCon 2010 maybe the Game Table itself will preview at GenCon.

Yes the news is still lacking and doubt still remains, but I do commend you Randy, IF you keep the commitment to actually give weekly updates to the public via the website.

Also a very good choice to cut the price since but this is a bit confusing....

[code]The price tag for this subscription is as low as $4.95 per month, depending on how many months you are willing to sign up for. Specifically:

    Web-Content Only Subscription Package:
    12 Months = $59.40 ($4.95 per month)
    3 Months = $19.95 ($6.65 per month)
    1 Month = $7.95 ($7.95 per month)

We aren’t ready to discuss our medium or long-term pricing plans, but this is what the short-term looks like.[/code]
It seems the long-term pricing model is you $5 per month with a yearly subscription. Have you made up some industry terminology that you do not wish to define for the public as most subscription services now only give you 1 year as the longer term, unless they force you into a multiple year plan like some cell phone providers. Others only offer month-month pricing plans and refuse to accept payment for or otherwise think beyond the monthly subscription rate.

So what are you considering medium and long term? Do you have some kind of lifetime subscription plan in the works or something? Maybe some group rate for established gaming groups rather than the single user plans listed above?

Look forward to next week when hopefully answers to some questions presented here and in past threads on the forum can be looked at in further depth with the closest to be released products, and a few things from this "press release" can be clarified.

Gamer_Zer0 wrote:

This is the pricing for the "web-content only" subscription, which we saw a fair number of people request. Future pricing hasn't yet been announced.

Please define "web content only".

Is there some portion of DDI that will not be online and you must somehow pay some subscription fee for it? Will DDI have some physical product?

flamepulse2 wrote:

Their is no pleasing some of you people. At this point im convinced WoTC can make DDI free and pay you 10 bucks a month to sue it and you will still find somthing to ***** about.

It is just that so little information has been given in the past, that since much has changed all we now has been thrown out, and we must start over fromt he beginning asking questions about what the changes mean and what the plans are now.

The fact information will be given on a weekly basis is good, but we need some clarifications of what we are being given for those not in the WotC offices to understand what is being said.

hellmute wrote:

Please define "web content only".

Basically, the stuff that's available for free right now: Dragon articles, Dungeon articles, & the Compendium.

The fancier stuff like the character visualizer, v-minis and v tabletop will be a different (read: higher) pricing system.

I was really thinking that the eventual character visualizer, v-tabletop etc were going to get a free trial period as well, but now I guess not. Kind of risky to subscribe to things sight unseen IMO.

Lizardman wrote:

Basically, the stuff that's available for free right now: Dragon articles, Dungeon articles, & the Compendium.

The fancier stuff like the character visualizer, v-minis and v tabletop will be a different (read: higher) pricing system.

I was really thinking that the eventual character visualizer, v-tabletop etc were going to get a free trial period as well, but now I guess not. Kind of risky to subscribe to things sight unseen IMO.

Oh so they are going to start charging now for what is free, and then sucker people into yearly subscriptions for higher priced things without geting to see them unless they go to some convention and stand in line hoping they get a turn with them?

Um...no.

It seems like you buy this trial material and then have to extend beyond that to get the other things, so you MUST buy what is currently free later.

I think they still have their heads stuck up their....accounting ledgers...too far to listen to the customers if that is the case.

Bodyknock wrote:

Great to see some more news about what's coming in the D&DI pipeline. I have two quick questions, which you may or may not yet have the answer to (but it can't hurt to ask):

- If you buy the Web-Content Only Subscription Package for six-months or a year prior to the other D&DI features becoming available, how will it work in terms of upgrading your subscription once the virtual tabletop becomes available? I'm guessing we'd be charged the difference each month in the plans, but that's just my guess.
I am guessing they will be separate things any not needing upgrading. You get the web-content and order the other separate so people can choose. But that is a guess.
- Randy mentioned that the Ability and Encounter Generators are ready to go live. When are they going up and where will we find them on the website? (There's currently no tab in the D&DI section for either of those items.)
In the DDi section there was a link that said Bonus Tools for a little while the other day, but it has now disappeared. I would wager those things would be there when that link returns.
Thanks!

Answer in red.

Phobos wrote:

IMHO, this is all fine and good, and I do appreciate the price drop, but my faith is gone. You can count on $7.95 from me for a one month personal trial when *everything* is done and ready to use.
....
EDIT: My mistake, I misunderstood what I read. If I am now understanding it correctly, you are going to charge us $7.95/mo, or $4.95/mo x12, for what you are offering right now, plus maybe a few minor tools? No, I am sorry.

I hear you on this (and it's been repeated before in this thread).
The $8-4 really would be a nice price for everything. But *just* for the magazines with everything else extra (and possibly back to the $15 they were suggesting earlier) is just too much. The game table, visualizer, and generator is not worth and additional $7/month.

* * *

Here's what they should do:
They should have a free show-off period for each new applications as they launch.
ie: here's the new visualizer. For the next 8 days you can try it for free (but only it).
That way everyone sees what the products are without having to sink a monthly payment to try it. If it's as good as they seem to think it is, they should have no problems hooking increasing numbers of people as each new product is demo-ed.
And that way there's none of the hesitation that comes with having to pay $8-15 for something you're unsure of.

dexterk03 wrote:

This is how I feel the pricing scheme should work..

$5-$8 a month for "web content" is pretty silly. From what I can gather, public opinion about these features that have already been available for free for some time (excluding the tools) have been hardly better than lukewarm. Before you could even think to start charging for these features, articles would have to be cleaned up, the compendium sorted out and streamlined, these "tools" to be available etc.

While it's been a few weeks for the magazines and compendium to be free additions to the site, what's the harm in leaving them free? How devoid of interesting articles is the Wizards site going to be? What's the point in charging for a (right now) lousy search feature when there are better, free alternatives elsewhere? While the updates have been sparse the last couple months, I'm sure the subscription fee's will be up and ready in no time, right?

And on top of all of this, we are expected to pay before the final product is available. Plain and simple: we are paying for an unfinished product. Either finish the product or forget your "pricing schemes".

Nobody in their right mind should give you money on good faith. Likewise, I don't think anyone should pay for features they won't use. I enjoy the magazine articles from time to time, but I find little use for the compendium. What's the portion of that in the $5-$8 pricing plan? Figure that out, and offer me a way to subscribe to only what I want.. ie..

Assuming a monthly subscription
Dragon- +2.95/month
Dungeon- +2.95/month
Compendium- +1.95/month
Visualizer- +1.95/month
Builder- +1.95/month
Table- +4.95/month

Here, you still offer all the products for $15 a month, but allow players to pay for only what they want. It's cheaper for them, you still get your money for the tools they use, everybody is happy.

I really like what you laid out, though personally it seems to me that Wizards did promise some of these items would be free, like the character builder and dungeon builder, etc.

my thoughts are there are two core services being offered here that people would be willing to pay for.

1 the game table
2 the magazine subscriptions.

4.95 for each of those is reasonable to me, that way casual gamers who want to play with their group 2-3 times a month dont feel gouged, and those who like the magazine articles can get them.

you still charge 10 dollars a month to those who want them, and you still keep the (what i interpreted as) promises of many of the tools being free to the table top gamers, but the real neat stuff is still best used online.

marcus_bandon wrote:

Hello, I have been anxiously awaiting the release of the D&DI Character Visualizer.

I would greatly apreciate more information about it's current production status. Mainly, an estimation of when it will be available.

The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.

Gamer_Zer0 wrote:

The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.

This Visualiser thing is just bugging me (and probably irrationally, but hey). It's the equivalent of a car company saying "Check out these sweet hubcaps you can put on your car! You'll be able to rent them first, but we're not done with the rest of the car yet and we don't know when it'll be finished, but we're dedicating some primo resources to these awesome hubcaps! I guess in the meantime you could use them for ashtrays."

Seriously, what's the point of pushing the Visualiser out first? It doesn't actually do anything, and it's certainly not useful without either the Character Builder or the Game Table.

Is it gonna have more than player character graphics? Are people going to be able to start making monster minis with it? Can you actually make a v-mini model without tying it to a character through the CB? Please tell me this thing has some standalone use other than distracting people with shinies.

Kyros_Tachyus wrote:

There is no word on whether the pricing has changed from the $15 model or not. Care to clarify?

Thats what several of us are waiting for. Clarification on the pricing model.

There is word but it's implied, and WotC has already stated they will not confirm further.

There was never suppose to be a reduced, pre-finished, pricing model, and with all the issues, delays and complaints, it came to pass.

Now, I'm not saying WotC needs the money, but if everyone masses to the new pre-model and signs up, that's a good sign for them. It shows our continued interest, and in doing so, it may very well strengthen their resolve to maintain the past model of $14.95/mo plus some discount at 3/mo and 1/yr.

If we however do not flock to the pre-model, and continue to speak out against the $14.95, it may very well force their hand to reconsider the final price.

mattdm wrote:

Well, as noted above, I'm happy with the current price and current offerings. If it goes to $14.95/month and this "web only" option is dropped, I'll cancel as fast as I can type.

I too would subscribe to the full set of tools at $7.95/mo, I'd even subscribe to $7.85/mo for the broken apart (ala carte) model that dexterk03 posted above.

Dragon- +2.95/month
Dungeon- +2.95/month
Compendium- +1.95/month
Visualizer- +1.95/month
Builder- +1.95/month
Table- +4.95/month

However, I will not subscribe prior to the final release on the grounds of broken delivery and promises.

I want to see, want to give them a chance to prove to me, why I should feel their product is worth anything more than the current free price it has now.

Phobos wrote:

I want to see, want to give them a chance to prove to me, why I should feel their product is worth anything more than the current free price it has now.

I feel like they've already proved it with the Dragon magazine articles to date. There's some nitpicking over numerical errors and some sloppy editing, but overall, really solid material. I was really disappointed by the feel of the 4E PH (especially compared to the very solid DMG), and the Dragon articles totally reassure me that this edition is going to be not only okay, but awesome. So really, they don't just provide incremental value to me, but in some sense are what sells 4E as a whole to me. (At least until PH2 and MM2 are out, and maybe some of the splatbooks.)

I think it'd be wise of WotC to keep producing this content for free to draw more people into the core 4E, but I understand that designers and developers have to get paid, so I'm willing to pay a nominal fee for it.

"Randy Buehler"]Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are up and running and are now 100 percent driven by the D&D R&D team. We’ wrote:

Dragon and Dungeon Magazines are up and running and are now 100 percent driven by the D&D R&D team. We’re using in-house design and development resources to make sure every article is worthy of being an official part of D&D and we feel really good about the quality of the product that we’re publishing.

The emphasis of the last sentence is mine. This made me laugh and I wondered if Mr. Buehler had read through "Rescue at Rivenroar". And, I wondered if anyone from D&D R&D has looked at our questions and the list of shortcomings we've articulated about the first part of the adventure path.

I've never been a Dragon reader. Maybe it's phenomenal now and makes up for some of the issues that "Rescue at Rivenroar" suffers. Again, I want to run Scales of War. I earnestly hope that the problems of the adventure path's first installment are not systemic.

Gamer_Zer0 wrote:

The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.

If they manage to get a demo machine (or machines) up in the sagamore ballroom (where the RPGA games and D&D minis will be hosted) I'll be sure to write about them in the blog I've been asked to keep up.

Won't be as cool as a video, but I can probably get a couple pics and some text up faster than G_0 can probably edit and splice (and fake? ) some video.

Err. . . assuming my blogging will permit pics. I don't really have all the details just yet.

Kentinal wrote:

It depends on whom you are being provided with the webpage as to if you can upload images. Though most of those things these days they call blogs in general are not weblogs, they are almost a bloody message board just few (or one) users are allowed to start threads.
Some websites might prohibit some kinds of image formats and so on, check the terms of use.

Yeah, like I said, I dunno where they'll be sticking my blogs. They did ask me to confirm my message board username, however, so I won't be surprised if I just get a semi-private forum to post in, but, hey, these forums allow images, so no problem there.

Mead wrote:

Seriously, what's the point of pushing the Visualiser out first? It doesn't actually do anything, and it's certainly not useful without either the Character Builder or the Game Table.

Is it gonna have more than player character graphics? Are people going to be able to start making monster minis with it? Can you actually make a v-mini model without tying it to a character through the CB? Please tell me this thing has some standalone use other than distracting people with shinies.

No, and that's the whole point. However, I have seen a lot of people that are clamoring for that particular shiny. I don't work for Wizards, probably will never work for Wizards (given my rather vehement criticism of them of late), and have no idea, but I suspect that the visualizer is the closest thing to being fully ready, and that's why it is being slated for first release.

For me, the visualizer would be fun for about an hour, until I pushed the envelope to find all of its limitations and then decided that there are better and more powerful programs available that I don't have to pay a subscription for. Personally, I want details on this thing before I'm willing to spend money for it.

• Can you have different poses for your character and, if so, do you select from a predesignated selection of poses, and can you create your own?
  
• Are faces built by selecting from an selection of faces, or are they built piece-by-piece (eyes, nose, mouth, eyebrows, etc.)? How large is the selection? Do races other than humans have different facial features from humans? Are the eyes of elves different in design from the eyes for humans, or is there one collection of faces to use for any non-dragonborn race?
  
• Can I have a character that is portly, or unusually skinny? How about a characters that is obese, or overly muscular? Can I create a character with the frame of a sumo wrestler?
  
• How much control do we have over the ability to recolor elements? Can we recolor each and every little thing, if desired? If I wanted to have a character whose trim on his scabbard was bright green, could I do it?
  
• Are we limited to equipment that is found in the Player's Handbook. or will it be expanded to include equipment from Adventurer's Vault?
  
• Can I change my character's body frame beyond a preselected value? For example, could I increase the bust size of my elf, if desired?
  
• Do characters look attractive (though you could create one as ugly, of course), or do they resemble mutant crickets?

Gamer_Zer0 wrote:

The Visualizer is still under development. We will have a version of it running at GenCon that we will let people use. If you think it will help, I can try to get some video of people using it at GenCon and post it on youtube, just to give those that aren't going to GenCon and idea of how it looks.

YouTube videos of all of the applications on display at GenCon or other future events would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks GZ!

Garry2rs wrote:

4 times a month to game, at 4+ hours per session, is less than $1 per hour.

And you're never going to use the tools other than those 4 times to game? You won't read the articles, use the character creation tools to conceptualize different characters, won't use the Compendium instead of buying the physical source books, won't use the dungeon creation tool to plan out new campaigns, etc...?

Pretty much, I haven't so far. I can't speak for Kyros, but...

• I've glanced through the Dragon and Dungeon articles, but with one exception, haven't used any of the material (whereas, when they were in printed form and I could read and use them without having to print them myself, I used them regularly).
• I haven't made much use of any of the character creators for 3.5, because most do not allow the level of customization I require in my games.
• I haven't used the Compendium because it is incomplete and slower than simply opening the book.
• Dungeon Tiles are too limited to be of any practical use. I needed a round tower the other day and they were no help at all. I also could not use them to layout battles in the haunted manor my characters are getting ready to explore.
• I have dungeon creation tools that are free (no subscription fee; ever!) that work every bit as well. Better even, since they exist already!

Neconilis wrote:

1.) The Compendium will not replace the physical books because it will not have all of the material that the physical books have. If it did the price might be more reasonable, but it's been stated that the Compendium will only be a glorified, yet ironically, abridged reference, which is unfortunate.

2.) I don't think anyone is arguing that $15 is a princely sum, we're arguing that it simply doesn't add up to other $15 digital offers, or to similar digital tools. I.E. the whole a mainstream M.M.O.R.P.G. is typically $15 or FG is a one time fee with group and player options argument.

This I agree with,

But I am afraid that once DDI is full up and running WotC will go back to what they said they would charge, which is sad because I do want to use the tools, just not willing to pay that price for them, I would feel Cheated and taken advantage of if I did.

I hope I am wrong.