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Kentinal wrote:

Yes the two are not the same, however I would argue D&D is not the same either.

White book had three classes, Fighter, Cleric (perhaps Druid, as that is reported the genies of the fantasy RP concept) and Wizard (or magic man).

1st, 2nd and 3rd included classes like Paladin, Bard, Druid.
4th does not yet include Druid or Bard and redefined Paladin to be any alignment (thus making the Paladin a totally new class). Not only excluding traditional classes from D&D they add core classes of Warlock and Warlord.
The Warlock under at least older rules needs to be Evil aligned.
The Warlord was a splat class. (1)

Also the races have changed as to what are basic races. I was not happy to discover the Kobolds were Dragon-kin in 3rd, but now we have a new Dragon-kin in 4th as well, that are also evil tended.

It is a new game or it is only parts of the prior existing game.

*Splat* races and classes are now core as opposed to what was core last edition. It is only part of a D&D game for any that played any prior edition, it of course is a complete game if it stood on its own not branded D&D and fully playable.

(1) The gender nuetrality gone is an additional issue as far as I am concerned.

Yes it's D&D 4th edition... It's not the same as the other editions. No edition has been exactly the same as the edition prior to it. That would be silly, and there would be no reason to add the new edition number to it.

If you'd rather play another edition, go play it... What's stopping you?

This guy?

WhtKnt wrote:

It is not about the new edition; it never has been. I like the new edition. I like what the game has become. It is a different game, yes, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having to pay for things that, so far as I am concerned, should have been available from the beginning.

Ok I can understand an opinion, everyone is allowed one... Bust saying you HAVE to pay for soemthing is a bit of a stretch... This is a lieasure activity. You don't HAVE to pay for any of it.

What it really seems like you're saying is you're upset that WoTC has a product you want. :p

Druids have been a part of the game from its beginning. As my favorite class, if I can't play one in the new edition without having to pay extra money for a supplement, my enjoyment is curtailed. Can I make adaptations, sure? But should I have to? Well, maybe. But it goes beyond that.

The Players Handbook II, from what I have seen, just converts old material to the new edition. And yet they will charge us... oh, let's say $35.00 for material that they know will sell because many of us want it and have wanted it from the first.

All I'm saying is that it is a blatant cash grab.

I guess I see it differently?

I see it as a space issue... The first book (in addition to presenting the rules) spends it's room on 3 power sources. Martial, Arcane, and Divine.

Sure, you can argue that they instead of putting in the warlord should have put in the druid, but you also in doing so, need to look at the other effects this would have had. More magic items dedicated to the new power source, more weapons deadicated to the new classes, more powers in the other classes designed to synergize with the new power source.

Plus you'd have to go back to the MM and start bringing in monsters that account for some of the new features and powers.

Overall the effect would have needed to be more space dedicated, or a half assed druid, bard, and barbarian.

I'd prefer that they let those classes come out later in a form that gives us more.

WhtKnt wrote:

It is not about the new edition; it never has been. I like the new edition. I like what the game has become. It is a different game, yes, but I don't mind that. What I mind is having to pay for things that, so far as I am concerned, should have been available from the beginning.

Druids have been a part of the game from its beginning. As my favorite class, if I can't play one in the new edition without having to pay extra money for a supplement, my enjoyment is curtailed. Can I make adaptations, sure? But should I have to? Well, maybe. But it goes beyond that.

The Players Handbook II, from what I have seen, just converts old material to the new edition. And yet they will charge us... oh, let's say $35.00 for material that they know will sell because many of us want it and have wanted it from the first.

All I'm saying is that it is a blatant cash grab.

If I had gotten an 80 page PHB with crappy art and a loose binding then yeah I would agree with you.

Smudge issues aside, I cannot complain about the PHB. There are simply too many new mechanics and crunch involved with the new system to include everything without making the book dictionary sized, and if that was so we'd probably still be waiting for release and have to pay $100 for it, which would provoke more complaints I'm sure.

The only way I think they could have squeezed the other classes in was to cut out the epic and paragon tier abilities and release them later. From a selfish standpoint that would have been great since my group is only 4th level so far but for fast-moving, play-every-day groups or for folks who want to dive right in to paragon or epic play, that would be disastrous as instead of certain classes entire campaigns or adventures would be shut down.

While on the surface the prospect of paying another $35 for design materials that were included before is a negative, what it comes down to is the new material worth the money? For me it's a yes. I get a balanced system that's robust enough to see my players through for the next year or more up to level 30. I get a system that is more fun for my players (that's the feedback I get), and I get a system that makes prep work much less of a pain. If the downside of all that is I have to pay an extra $35 because all the extra material requires two books, sign me up.

On a personal note, I've been doing my fair share to keep WOTC, Paizo, and my FLGS in business by shelling out about $400 for minis, $100 for the new books and DM screen, and another $150 in flip-maps, dungeon tiles, and other map accessories. I suppose I could complain about "having" to spend all that money but fact of the matter is my time is precious. I don't have time to draw detailed battle and world maps or paint pewter minis, so for me that money is all well spent (though I would like WOTC to sell lines of commons like Orcs, Kobolds and Goblins so I don't have to deal with E-bay to get a bunch of them)