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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 10:10PM
#21
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"My second answer to that is, "Yes, even though we did, we could have done a better job overall.""
I think if you made it a bit more clear that they are due out soon it would help. Three people were looking with me at the site today while doing the 4th edition game day. They saw that the links were there and furiously clicked each picture trying to find how to start the applications. I know that the search engine isnt working yet, because it said "coming soon."
After some searching i found this article. But the fellows had already gotten their hopes up and had them dashed.
Might i suggest just a small line at the top of each page that says "application coming soon."
That would take all the fun out of it. Finding this post hidden on the boards is like an online quest.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 10:10PM
#22
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Thanks Ken for the information. I like pretty much everyone was disappointed at the delay however I prefer that you follow in general Blizzards product development examples. Its done when its done, but as long as its good.
That being said, and someone correct me if I am wrong, I was under the impression that DDI was going to be like $15 a month and that got you access to Dungeon AND Dragon as well as the app tools and whatever else. I was not under the impression that it cost more (and if it does, thats a different story) for the apps. However, $15 a month is not THAT much and for if nothing else the two magazines and a little of other content its not that bad. If its $15 for everything, and the apps go as advertised and work well, $15 is squat. Two magazines and tools that make playing with people who are across the country easier and things are better laid out, to me is a great value.
Sadly im surprised that I seem to be one of the few that thinks $15 is worth it and I would be curious on what they think they should get for $15 a month or what they would be willing to pay for.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 10:18PM
#23
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Date Joined:
Mar 31, 2008
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I won't try to make it sound like a polite or casual greeting so....Welcome to Hell. Because that is what you will likely catch from people as the months go on here.
Thanks for stopping by at the request of G_Z, or whomever, and giving this information and opening a dialogue with the consumer base about the future of the product that is/will be DDI.
More of that here on these forums would go a long way to strengthen the communications beteen the community and the customers.
I figured Compendium would be the first to launch, and liked a bit of what I saw of it before it went down. (Should have kept my mouth shut and just played with it more rather than tell everyone it was live.) well I hope it did give a stress test to see what to expect when it or any of the other tools go live in the way of how many people will rush to try each one.
I do have a question/reques about the compendium. Even though it will not have full rules, but "rules elements" why were page numbers taken out?
Couldn't those be included? IF space requirements are of concern from what I was able to use of the compendium a quick reduction of lettering from Monster Manual to MM would allow plenty of space to not only include the book number when later renditions of the core books are released yearly, but page numbers as well and still allow for sorting by the book.
In the case of Dragon or Dungeon "elements" links to the actual issue or article for subscribers would be helpful moreso than jsut a page numebr. However that may cause some problem when searching for an issue that was prior to subscription date, but should easily work the same way as viewing the issue would to get the full rules text.
This will make the Compendium much more functional as a super-index of D&D 4th Edition as well as offering the tibdits of actual game data that was present in the accidental sneak peek.
In the unlikely event of errata for any of the books, the same format used for Dragon and Dungeon could be used to link to the latest updated form that the "rules element" points to on the website.
On the front of the display of the elements itself, it may be needed to have some sort of advanced search where you can find all items matching both Elf and Wizard, or matching either Elf or Wizard for example so you can make a more defined search with multiple terms.
Also the number of results displayed per "page" should be a setting individual users can coose like the forums with all being a possibility.
When sorting the sneak peak did not do a reverse alphanumeric sort, but only forward. I would think the reverse is already something in the works.
Well there are some ideas of what oculd be helpful for the compendium, but I am sure they have already been thought of, and at least one user has now stated them here for consideration.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 10:36PM
#24
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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Sadly im surprised that I seem to be one of the few that thinks $15 is worth it and I would be curious on what they think they should get for $15 a month or what they would be willing to pay for.
Given that most MMOs offer an entire game's worth of content, providing something that many people can play hours daily for $15 or less, it's pretty obvious what we're expecting.
When many people play D&D only once or maybe twice a week, depending on game size/number of games/etc, $15 for a small suite of tools and a couple magazines is ridiculous.
Hell, I could buy an entirely new book off Amazon or another cheap retailer for only about $5 more.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 10:58PM
#25
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Given that most MMOs offer an entire game's worth of content, providing something that many people can play hours daily for $15 or less, it's pretty obvious what we're expecting.
When many people play D&D only once or maybe twice a week, depending on game size/number of games/etc, $15 for a small suite of tools and a couple magazines is ridiculous.
Hell, I could buy an entirely new book off Amazon or another cheap retailer for only about $5 more.
I agree that an MMO thats $15 a month certainly can offer far more value (at least in content and whatnot) that perhaps DDI. However a few things, one you have to usually buy the game for $50. Also, and this I don't know cause sadly I did not have it but I would suspect that a Dungeon and Dragon subscription came close to $15 a month anyways. Even says it was half, assuming you either had a subscription or would not mind having one now that the other $7-8ish is not worth access to the other apps that they have listed, nevermind the ability later to add new ones or other content.
Obviously it all comes down to if its worth it to you. Obviously if everyone or a very large chunk of people deem that its not worth it to them, then either Wizards will evaluate and either lower the price or drop the project all together.
My issue is seeing several on the forums (not necessarily in this thread or even on Wizards forums but on others) are the people who are like "OMG HOW DARE THEY !!!111!". First of all, Wizards is trying something new, so delays and what not are expected (at least by anyone who has dealt with software and games). Also, Wizards is trying to find a way to make some money (lets face it, they are a company and profit is good for shareholders as well as consumers as the more money generated by a brand such as D&D, the more likely new products will be allowed to be published and created). As Ken stated, he hopes that people see that its worth it for the $15 a month. And if not, then there is no law that says you have to get it. But as I saw in a previous post, people need something to complain about.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 11:21PM
#26
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Date Joined:
Sep 16, 2004
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Dear Ken, To be honest I am not likely to be a D&DI customer. My husband and I are both students subsisting on government loans, and we have a regular group that plays face-to-face. Our group is not even sure at this point that we will switch to 4e. I am nonetheless interested in seeing what the website will eventually offer, and free preview content is exactly what will sway an undecided customer like me. What I would like to provide feedback on is your posts -- and the fact that you posted here at all. Like many other fans, D&D has been an important part of my leisure time for many years. When I heard a new edition was coming out, I was very excited. As time wore on, however, I felt there were many growing problems that were independent of the product itself. I was very disgruntled with the way WotC was marketing (or lack thereof) to their customer base, and the way they were handling the message boards. It was enough to drive me away from the product -- through no fault of 4e itself. I did not want to give WotC a penny of my money because I thought the company's representatives were acting like  bags. I wondered how brand and community managers -- whose job involves being in the spotlight, marketing, and dealing with customers -- managed to regularly alienate and irritate those people who ultimately paid their salaries. I wondered why developers who blog about their work were surprised at the negative (and often personal) feedback they received -- and then further wondered why management allowed them to snark back at the customers directly and publicly. It was, therefore, with great amazement and gratitude that I came across your posts here. I don't know if you used to work on the Magic side of this company, but I find your straightforward tone and call for open communication reminiscent of many of the articles I've read on that part of the website. It is refreshing to deal with -- and completely unexpected on the D&D side of things. This level of professionalism from a D&D employee does a lot to restore my faith in the company. At the very least, it means I'm more willing to consider 4e and, ultimately, the D&DI. You, sir, have a lot to teach the rest of the D&D team, and I hope they are willing to send whoever's in charge of the GSL/SRD, not to mention Mike Lescault and/or his boss, your way for a day or two so they can learn how to handle customer service like a competent professional. Even Sara Girard and Scott Rouse could pick up a few tips from your posts in this thread. So basically, this is just positive feedback to let you know I really really really appreciate you taking the time to post this, and I think it would be great if this sort of communication could be implemented on a brand-wide/company-wide basis. I'm sure someone reading these posts compiles the comments and sends them off to your boss. I want your boss to know this was a really excellent move that may have saved a 4e customer, and hooked me as a potential D&DI customer, and I think you deserve a lot of accolades. I also want the ultimate head boss person, whoever they are, to know that the D&D brand needs more representatives like you as their front-facing staff.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 11:21PM
#27
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Date Joined:
Mar 26, 2007
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I agree that an MMO thats $15 a month certainly can offer far more value (at least in content and whatnot) that perhaps DDI. However a few things, one you have to usually buy the game for $50. Also, and this I don't know cause sadly I did not have it but I would suspect that a Dungeon and Dragon subscription came close to $15 a month anyways. Even says it was half, assuming you either had a subscription or would not mind having one now that the other $7-8ish is not worth access to the other apps that they have listed, nevermind the ability later to add new ones or other content.
True, you usually have to buy the game. But again, here -we- have to buy the books. Assuming you get even two, that's covering the price of the most expensive of MMOs (I don't know -any- that run for $50, maybe AoC...), and then you're back where you started with paying $15/mo for a little suite of content.
As for Dragon and Dungeon, there is no -way- they came close to $15/mo for a subscription, even if you ordered BOTH of them. You'd have to buy both magazines only off the newsstand to reach the same price they're charging for D&Di.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 11:27PM
#28
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Date Joined:
Mar 29, 2007
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Ken, thank you for sharing your thoughts and input as well as your candid estimates of where we're at in this endeavor. However... With all due respect, as a returning player (haven't played since 2E!) I feel completely railroaded by a large corporate money machine that allowed me to purchase their product while at the same time knowing full well that the tools they said I would have at release would NOT be available to me. And what happened? You took my money with one hand, then with the other gave me the finger and showed me the door. I have purchased the 4E Core Rule Books set and did so with the understanding that I would be able to very quickly learn it and get online with my geographically disparate buddies and start enjoying adventures in little time. But no... because I don't troll your forums every day and read every damned article I wasn't "in the know" about the delay of the DDI tools. For heaven's sake, Ken... I just read an article that is STILL UP that clearly says we'll get the tools with the release of the Player's Handbook! Don't believe me? Go to: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/drdd/20071024a and read it yourself. For those who don't want to click away, here's a direct quote from Didier Monin: "D&D Insider will launch in June 2008 with the new Player’s Handbook".... Now how do you expect me as a paying customer to understand that article to mean, "Delayed until it's done"? What I honestly think is happening here, and God help me if I'm right, is that you developers and programmers are doing your damndest to get it done and get it done right BUT you've been told by marketing to NOT make it abundantly clear before release that our promised tools aren't here as promised. Oh sure, there was that one "Ampersand" article... give me a break man! You could have easily put something on the front page of the site to let people know. Aah, but wait... if you did THAT, if you actually informed your paying public up front about this then shoot, you might not have sold nearly as many books, right? Isn't that the truth? Had you been open and honest and up-front with us from the start you would have lost a huge chunk of your sales. I think you know this and I for damned sure know your bean counters know this as well. All told, I may be jumping at shadows, Ken, but you have to admit that it's pretty ****** to let us all get so excited about this, watch the mountain of book sale money roll in and then say, "Oh, right, by the way...." I feel so angry and disgusted by this. It's not the fact that I don't get the tools yet. I can live with that. It's the principle. In a day and age when all of us gamers are REGULARLY **** upon by game companies with their false promises, it cuts to the quick when a company I respected so much as Wizards appears to be up to the same game. One last thing... I'm keeping my books. I'm going to play. You have my money but don't ever think that means you have my trust. Your company will have to earn that back, Ken. And trust me when I say I'm not the only one. Not by a very long shot. All the best, Blackflagon
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 11:29PM
#29
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True, you usually have to buy the game. But again, here -we- have to buy the books. Assuming you get even two, that's covering the price of the most expensive of MMOs (I don't know -any- that run for $50, maybe AoC...), and then you're back where you started with paying $15/mo for a little suite of content.
As for Dragon and Dungeon, there is no -way- they came close to $15/mo for a subscription, even if you ordered BOTH of them. You'd have to buy both magazines only off the newsstand to reach the same price they're charging for D&Di.
well just about every game when first released is $50. Wow, Ultima Online, Age of Conan, The Matrix just to name ones off the top of my head. True, many will lower their prices after the initial launch.
And you may be right, and it comes down to two things (tho somewhat related). It really comes down to is $15 worth it. For some (and in some cases from what I have seen from the forums, assuming it was a good cross-section of the public, many) it may not be. If Dungeon and Dragon continue to be good and the apps do what they are advertised to do and are decent to good, I personally don't mind kicking down the $15 a month. And this coming from someone who bought all three of the new books.
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5 years ago ::
Jun 07, 2008 - 11:42PM
#30
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Date Joined:
Apr 25, 2007
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*passes Ken my 3.5 Edition suit of +5 full plate armor of major fortification, back from an edition where armor magically resized itself to fit the wearer* You'll be glad for this later...
My suggestion is a simple one, and one that I think would make the most people happy. Price-value each component that DDI will offer and sell it on a cost-per month itemized basis. Here's a suggestion; not knowing the costs for you, only you will know how feasible it is. With your business model at $15 for the whole service, I'd suggest for monthly expenses:
$2 - Dragon Magazine access (no printing costs means lower prices!)
$2 - Dungeon Magazine access (see above!)
$1.50 - Character Builder access
$2 - Dungeon Builder access
$7.50 - Character Visualizer/Virtual Game Table
Free - Access to the Compendium for subscribers to other services
With this model in place, you'll make everyone happy (or happier, you'll never make EVERYONE happy). DMs like me will go full-suite (I'd only trim out Dungeon Magazine, as I make my own worlds). Players might like access to Dragon Magazine and the Character Builder. Anyone who wants to play D&D like a limited-run MMO or get together with friends over the table will find the half-pricing of the Game Table more palatable. You'll be incorporating everyone at some level or another, and I'm sure this wouldn't be a difficult transition to put into your software development. This will also allow you to roll out DDI one step at a time, putting all your resources into each project and finishing it faster.
Without this adjustment to the model, I'm afraid I'd have a very hard time selling DDI to my players, and would therefore lose out on some of the opportunities DDI really promises to provide. I don't think it's unreasonable, and as I said, it'd serve to inflate your user base with subscribers who otherwise wouldn't even consider it.
So sayeth Omnus.
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