The only way prices would fall on a product like this is if people actually didn't use it, but people are only going to not buy it if there is a close substitute. Most people won't see the third-party software available as a close substitute because DDI will just look way better and probably be more intuitive to use. I would say demand for DDI will actually not be very price-sensitive until the higher portion of the demand curve.
As an example of how the close substitutes beat out the original, look at the 3.0 character generator that wotc was touting as the best-thing-since-sliced-bread. It was horrible. Very buggy and feature poor. Numerous products came out and competed in the same space. They looked better, performed better, and were easier to use.
A classic example is the car market and the Japanese clone-and-pwn strategy of the 1970's. The first generation clones were horrible. Second generation almost destroyed the US auto industry in the 1980s because the US auto makers got lazy and forgot they were beholden to the consumer. Again, free markets gave us superior products... we stopped buying domestic cars and the US automakers had to retool and reorganize to regain the customer focus. In a non-free market system, we would still be driving 15mpg bricks. Of course, the liberal/socialist answer would be to legislate fuel efficiency, safety, etc. However, legislation fails courtesy of loopholes and corrupt politicians who make laws based on contributions (eg. global warming). The ironic part of this last sentence is that despite the attempt to legislate the US out of a world economy (ie. Kyoto protocol), the US market has now turned 'Green' into 'green'. Eco-friendly is now very profitable (which might explain why anyone who questions global warming is lynched...hard to debate when the far left and the far right are 'squeezing' common sense and recent scientific investigations in the middle).
I worked in germany during the 80's and it was interesting how a pseudo-socialist country operates. Essentially, the lack of free markets creates government sponsored monopolies, and the large 'evil corporations' told the government what would be sold. There was no choice offered. One phone company. One tv company. One networking company. The government protected the monopolies because it meant stable jobs (if people arent given a choice, the companies cant go out of business). Once germany started operating in a global economy, they started feeling the burn of competition. They've since experience the pains of layoffs, broken unions, a slight economic downturn during the 90's. At the same time, the companies that rested on their laurels for so long were forced to bring their products up in quality and wound up listening to their customers. In the free markets, people vote with dollars.
This is why I like my free markets (and why I hate "look-and-feel" patents)... at any time I could say 'wow..that sucks...let me do it better" and create/market/sell a product the not only competes, but beats the original.
And you may not think you're computer saavy, but trust me. Check out C# and XNA...it's VERY simple to code and people are creating some amazing games and software with it with very little effort. It has gotten to the point that technical skills are secondary to crafting a storyline and gameplay...which is fantastic. You can teach technical skills...you cant teach the skills required to sense and feel what users want and create software that hits the mark. Creating gameplay (or, for DDI-wannabes, a solid user interface) is more an art than creating the art-assets.
As an example of how the close substitutes beat out the original, look at the 3.0 character generator that wotc was touting as the best-thing-since-sliced-bread. It was horrible. Very buggy and feature poor. Numerous products came out and competed
Ok, so capitalist theory and substitution effect empirical evidence aside, you didn't answer my question, which was the whole point of my post. Is there a token maker? I just don't want to have to buy virtual minis and dungeon tiles to DM games online.
To respond to all the things you brought up: I think the character generator is actually an antithetical example. That thing sucked, and its competitors were good. I think DDI is going to be a really great program; it will look better, play better, etc. Because of those factors, most people still will buy/use it as opposed to the competition. Besides, if the competitors are so good, why isn't there currently a larger community of online D&D gamers?
As to the Japanese car example, I really hope that sort of thing happens here. I would be thrilled if a few companies came up with better programs than DDI and for cheaper, but it's going to be tough to compete with the sort of networking power such a brand name has. Even if a third-party does come out with a better online game table, most people will still probably use DDI because a) the subscription comes with all the bells and whistles like the e-mags and rules database etc., and b) because the user-base of that other software will start small and thus remain small. It's the same effect that Microsoft has had for so long in the software industry (incidentally, why DDI won't be available for Mac users just yet). People go where people already are. If you want your product to sell, you make it compatible with what most people have; similarly, if you want to play D&D online, you go where most people will likely already be doing so. It's a cyclical effect that would take a concerted community effort in the fan base to alter.
You experience in Germany is really more an example of poor government oversight of industry than an argument for free markets. If we just look to American history, there are plenty of examples of little to no regulation resulting in the same sort of corrupt "evil corporations." Without some checks on the free market, you end up with people like Rockefeller. He was a business genius, but the result was a refined oil monopoly that not only controlled the input markets of many other cornerstone industries in the country, but effectively controlled the Ohio state legislature. Because of the free market, Rockefeller was able to take over the competition even if they were producing a superior product. He would set up a refinery near a competitor and tank his own prices far below cost just so he could steal that competitor's business. Then when the other guy couldn't afford to operate anymore, Rocky bought him out and raised his prices up to higher than either were before simply because he was now the only supplier. Now, I know this isn't the most relevant example because DDI is not a good required by the people who would use it, but it still proves that corrupt monopolies will exist in free markets too. The obvious answer is just enough regulation so that cutthroat business tactics aren't possible.
I personally think patents (to an extent) are essential to promote technological progress, but that's another matter entirely.
Finally, thanks for the nudge to these coding mechanisms. I'll certainly check them out when I have the time.
Cheers
Kyle
Ok, so capitalist theory and substitution effect empirical evidence aside, you didn't answer my question, which was the whole point of my post. Is there a token maker? I just don't want to have to buy virtual minis and dungeon tiles to DM games onl
No Token maker has been announced as far as I know. Map making is possible, but that would appear to be with tiles or freehand for "Large Areas", perhaps a kind of white board. The ability to free hand anything might imply ability to freehand tokens as well. I however would not count on it.
No Token maker has been announced as far as I know. Map making is possible, but that would appear to be with tiles or freehand for "Large Areas", perhaps a kind of white board. The ability to free hand anything might imply ability to freehand tokens
No Token maker has been announced as far as I know. Map making is possible, but that would appear to be with tiles or freehand for "Large Areas", perhaps a kind of white board. The ability to free hand anything might imply ability to freehand tokens as well. I however would not count on it.
IIRC, they said during the Game Table demo at D&DXP (as I saw from the YouTube videos since I couldn't make it to it) that you'd be able to take ANY image you already possess, and import it onto a virtual token as part of the package. But I could be wrong.
IIRC, they said during the Game Table demo at D&DXP (as I saw from the YouTube videos since I couldn't make it to it) that you'd be able to take ANY image you already possess, and import it onto a virtual token as part of the package. But I could be
you sound like a member of the young socialist party.... you are in no way at the mercy of a 'corporation'. nobody is forcing you to use DDI. In Soviet Union, DDI plays YOU !
so that IS the beauty of a free market system. As opposed to the alternative: the socialist system you allude to in which you pay to the government with NO alternative.
The word "corporation" is generally tossed about by young idealists who reiterate bumper stickers with no concept of what they mean. Corporations are slaves to the will of the people (and I only use the term 'corporations' because the OP used it...the fictional concept of some looming monolithic 'evil entity' as the figurehead of a corporation is the focal point of modern liberalism/socialism). If nobody buys the corporations product, the corporation goes out of business. Of course, when this happens, people get laid off and the same people that complained about 'evil corporations making a profit' then complain that these same corporations laying people off.
There is no free lunch. If you dont like it, create your own DDI.
figure out what externalities are and get back to me
figure out what externalities are and get back to me
I'm just gonna step in preemtively and ask both christ and jkb to not get into an ultimately pointless argument about whether free markets or socialist regulations are preferable macroeconomic models. None of us really have the expertise to debate something like that, especially considering it remains a hotly debated subject amongst the top scholars in the field. More importantly, it has nothing to do with virtual miniatures or D&D or even the broader subject of "fiction." Just...please don't go there.
Also, could I perhaps get GothicProphet's recollection seconded? Does anyone else recall the devs saying at D&DXP that a token maker will come with the software?
Cheers
Kyle
I'm just gonna step in preemtively and ask both christ and jkb to not get into an ultimately pointless argument about whether free markets or socialist regulations are preferable macroeconomic models. None of us really have the expertise to debate s
Also in that FAQ, the subscription is 15/month unless you do a 3- or 12-month deal, the latter of which is 10/month.
Well I guess that does it in for me. If I have to buy effing tiles to even create dungeons, I can't see myself paying the monthly to use DDI. What the hell are they thinking? Methinks I'll try to organize a forum-wide boycott of Insider after we all check out their free preview.
Catching up on the thread, so this may have already been covered - you only have to pay for 3D tiles (like, a Tile that produces a big flaming brazier).
If you're happy with using "flat" tiles to make a map, or even scanning or otherwise importing your own images for maps, you're fine.
Catching up on the thread, so this may have already been covered - you only have to pay for 3D tiles (like, a Tile that produces a big flaming brazier).If you're happy with using "flat" tiles to make a map, or even scanning or otherwise importing you
No Token maker has been announced as far as I know. Map making is possible, but that would appear to be with tiles or freehand for "Large Areas", perhaps a kind of white board. The ability to free hand anything might imply ability to freehand tokens as well. I however would not count on it.
Part of the Game Table (or at least, it was demoed as one of the DMs options at the DDXP DDI demo) includes an option to take ANY image use the built in circular cropping tool and apply your circular image to a flat 2D token.
While I'm nobody official, I'm fairly certain I've posted as such on numerous occasions, so (if you read my posts and don't think I'm pulling things outta my hind end) this shouldn't be anything new.
Part of the Game Table (or at least, it was demoed as one of the DMs options at the DDXP DDI demo) includes an option to take ANY image use the built in circular cropping tool and apply your circular image to a flat 2D token.While I'm nobody official
Also, could I perhaps get GothicProphet's recollection seconded? Does anyone else recall the devs saying at D&DXP that a token maker will come with the software?
Cheers
Kyle
I not only heard them say it, I saw them demo it in a DDI Demo.
I not only heard them say it, I saw them demo it in a DDI Demo.
It's like music to my ears, and not that rap garbage people are listening to these days, but the good stuff - like Allman Brothers or Jim Croce.
Given this information, 1) I will without doubt be subscribing to DDI and 2) see no moral, economic, theoretical, practical, legal, or metaphorical problem with their charging for digital minis and special dungeon tiles. It seems now I'll have to find something else to complain about. Maybe the limited "character vault"...*wanders off*
It's like music to my ears, and not that rap garbage people are listening to these days, but the good stuff - like Allman Brothers or Jim Croce.Given this information, 1) I will without doubt be subscribing to DDI and 2) see no moral, economic, theor
Sorry I did not read all the posts between my last and this one, but a thought jsut struck me when reading the part from someone about "$3 for a dozen orcs".
WoW recently did something about minis from their characters.
I forget where I read about it, but you can get your character made into a tangible mini from them or a partner of theirs.
I don't even know why I forgot about this. The thing that connects to virtual minis, is that WotC with DDM have gone to a CAD production model. The first set of DDM 2.0 was designed using computers, I think, rather than sculptors.
Could this mean that WotC is planning to supplement RPG players with minis outside of the DDM line by being able to convert those created in the Game Table! or other part of the software suite and directly produce the mini you want on-demand and by your own design?
What would that be worth?
Would you buy a v-mini, and be able to have the same technology that makes the real WoW minis, and the proccess used to make DDM minis turn your minis into tangible objects?
Should that only be an option for subscribers, or only to subscribers who also buy v-minis?
The technology exists to take these v-minis and make the real thing with them. Could it be a goal of WotC to do so?
I disagree with the above post at the time I wrote this one. Everquest charged for expansions, but you got a tangile product. The CD was an option to buy expansions. You could copy the files onto your own CD for backup purposes in case some patch messed it up.
I don't really understand the selling of virtual merchandise for real money, like Magic cards, or minis.
MY bigest problem with thinking about it is that is you have all the rules at hand as a subscriber, will you have all the tokens for every monster created within those rules?
Will some monsters not have tokens, but only v-minis that must be bought?
I think charging for too many pieces of this thing may be like trying to milk a bull.
Sorry I did not read all the posts between my last and this one, but a thought jsut struck me when reading the part from someone about "$3 for a dozen orcs".WoW recently did something about minis from their characters.I forget where I read about it,
figure out what externalities are and get back to me
externalities are positive and negative...which doesnt support your point that corporations are bad.
Socialism, on the other hand, has never succeeded. Even the US was pseudo-socialist when the pilgrims first hit the dirt (and their first year of colonization). Almost wiped 'em out.
In any case, the relevance to DDI is non-existant. ===========================
"WoW recently did something about minis from their characters.
I forget where I read about it, but you can get your character made into a tangible mini from them or a partner of theirs."
for $100 you can have a mini made. =========================== " It's like music to my ears, and not that rap garbage people are listening to these days, but the good stuff - like Allman Brothers or Jim Croce."
halleluja. On the positive side, Rap is dying the horrible death it deserves.
externalities are positive and negative...which doesnt support your point that corporations are bad.Socialism, on the other hand, has never succeeded. Even the US was pseudo-socialist when the pilgrims first hit the dirt (and their first year of col
WoW recently did something about minis from their characters.
I forget where I read about it, but you can get your character made into a tangible mini from them or a partner of theirs.
I forget the details, but it's like $100 for a model of your character, and the waiting list is (was?) so long that you had to win a raffle just to get a spot IN LINE to order a model. (Edit - just checked the website, still hae to WIN a chance to place an order - next raffle is April 25th)
One of these 4E forums already has a discussion on the viability of this technology for DDI (EDIT - found the thread) - and at DDXP WotC even mentioned (when asked) that it was something they were thinking about (though I seem to recall the answer basically coming down to "when the technology becomes cheaper/more available".
MY bigest problem with thinking about it is that is you have all the rules at hand as a subscriber, will you have all the tokens for every monster created within those rules?
Will some monsters not have tokens, but only v-minis that must be bought?
Tokens are just like, say, checkers in and of themselves. Small "discs" that (in the demo) are white and take up a single square (I, personally, assume that other colors and sizes will be available).
To make a token represent a PC, NPC, Monster, or "other" you import an image, use the included circular cropping tool and with a click - your crop is placed "on top" of the token. Rawr, it's a monster.
So, tokens have unlimited use as monsters (I know I won't be the only person importing my face - just because I can).
It's the 3D models that are under WotC's control.
I forget the details, but it's like $100 for a model of your character, and the waiting list is (was?) so long that you had to win a raffle just to get a spot IN LINE to order a model. (Edit - just checked the website, still hae to WIN a chance to pl
Tokens are just like, say, checkers in and of themselves. Small "discs" that (in the demo) are white and take up a single square (I, personally, assume that other colors and sizes will be available).
To make a token represent a PC, NPC, Monster, or "other" you import an image, use the included circular cropping tool and with a click - your crop is placed "on top" of the token. Rawr, it's a monster.
So, tokens have unlimited use as monsters (I know I won't be the only person importing my face - just because I can).
It's the 3D models that are under WotC's control.
I will check that thread you listed about the DDXP.
So tokens will be like those other virtual tabletops? Just a disc for using your own pictures? I would have thought that for D&D use they could at least provide the images for the tokens form the monster or character books. Didn't one video of the Game Table! have a 3D beholder in it? So 3D models for monsters will be paid for, but 3D characters are free, and token must be used to represent the mosnters?
In a 3D environment do 2D tokens really let you see what it is you are looking at?
I am wondering if it is a good idea at all if all the components are not readily 3D and free with subscription.
They should do a-la-carte DDI so people can pay for what they want to use from it. It seems that is what v-minis will be and other portions of DDI as well, like the "guest" passes for non-subscribers to play on the Game Table!.
I will check that thread you listed about the DDXP.So tokens will be like those other virtual tabletops? Just a disc for using your own pictures? I would have thought that for D&D use they could at least provide the images for the tokens form the mon
The other 'positive' aspect about making the 3d minis ala carte:
wotc has already said that, much like the dnd minis, not 'every' monster will be available as a 3d mini. So you can expect that you'll be running with a mix of 2d/3d at best.
Unless the minis are 'very' cheap, I expect most will do like wolfstar: tokens for everything but the uniques (aka. 'boss monsters').
Honestly, I think I'd prefer it if wotc DIDNT provide premade pix with their tokens. There is so much great artwork out there you can use that probably reflects the look 'n' feel of your campaign and game, I would think the customization would be a 'plus'.
Not to mention, since you are making your own picture to stick in the disc, you could also include information on it (cheesy example: a slash through the middle of the disc...on one half the monsters pic...the other half the weapon the monster is wielding).
Also, there is no rule that says you have to have just monsters on the discs. Perhas a disc with a picture of an unsual set piece that wotc doesnt have as tile art (eg. 'ancient elven throne permeated with dark and evil magic'...you might find a bone throne online or such...wotc wont have the set piece, but now you are a couple clicks away from making your own art asset to include).
The other 'positive' aspect about making the 3d minis ala carte:wotc has already said that, much like the dnd minis, not 'every' monster will be available as a 3d mini. So you can expect that you'll be running with a mix of 2d/3d at best.Unless the
I forget the details, but it's like $100 for a model of your character, and the waiting list is (was?) so long that you had to win a raffle just to get a spot IN LINE to order a model. (Edit - just checked the website, still hae to WIN a chance to place an order - next raffle is April 25th)
And if i remember an article i read correctly, it's a short-term thing. I think it was an external company that was started by an ex-blizzard employee/artist. The company wasnt created to create 'wow minis', but it was a quick way for the guy to raise capital for the company.
And if i remember an article i read correctly, it's a short-term thing. I think it was an external company that was started by an ex-blizzard employee/artist. The company wasnt created to create 'wow minis', but it was a quick way for the guy to ra
I will check that thread you listed about the DDXP.
In a 3D environment do 2D tokens really let you see what it is you are looking at?
You've touched on my one real gripe with DDI. It's not really 3d. The ground is 2d. No heightmaps. Even my tabletop could have some depth and ridges and valleys with styrofoam and paint.
A shame they couldnt license the tileset builder from neverwinter nights. No rulesets, no pathing, just simple drag and drop 3d tiles.
You've touched on my one real gripe with DDI. It's not really 3d. The ground is 2d. No heightmaps. Even my tabletop could have some depth and ridges and valleys with styrofoam and paint.A shame they couldnt license the tileset builder from neverwi
I will check that thread you listed about the DDXP.
My apologies, I wasn't clear. The thread is about personalized minis.
So tokens will be like those other virtual tabletops? Just a disc for using your own pictures? I would have thought that for D&D use they could at least provide the images for the tokens form the monster or character books. Didn't one video of the Game Table! have a 3D beholder in it? So 3D models for monsters will be paid for, but 3D characters are free, and token must be used to represent the mosnters?
It's my assumption that we're on our own for making "custom" tokens to be . WotC may very well provide pre-made images, but since we're not limited to what WotC does (or doesn't) provide, that's a minor concern for me.
In a 3D environment do 2D tokens really let you see what it is you are looking at?
Also, when they loaded characters into the Game Table at DDI, they were loaded first as tokens (using images from the visualizer) and the GM had the option to "promote" them to the 3D minis. So you could play in a fully 2D environment if you so desired - without the. . . eyesore(?) of having a mixed bag of 3D PCs and 2D everything else.
Since there's no Z-axis planned for launch, players who are against buying 3D minis and tiles might have a perfectly playable time with those options.
I am wondering if it is a good idea at all if all the components are not readily 3D and free with subscription.
Many people are wondering that.
They should do a-la-carte DDI so people can pay for what they want to use from it. It seems that is what v-minis will be and other portions of DDI as well, like the "guest" passes for non-subscribers to play on the Game Table!.
I'm all for an ala carte option. I fully intend to buy in with a "full" monthly subscription (even if there were other choices), but it shouldn't be the only choice.
My apologies, I wasn't clear. The thread is about personalized minis.It's my assumption that we're on our own for making "custom" tokens to be . WotC may very well provide pre-made images, but since we're not limited to what WotC does (or doesn't)
Hmm. I'm assuming that this does not include things like stairs and ramps in dungeons, but even so, that's pretty sloppy.
The (standard) tiles are the same (dimensionally) as the dungeon tiles you can purchase at your FLGS.
They use illustration to show when stairs go up/down but they're (in and of themselves) flat.
There are going to be 3D tiles - but (at least based on the DDXP demo) they're largely "set pieces" - braziers and the like.
The (standard) tiles are the same (dimensionally) as the dungeon tiles you can purchase at your FLGS.They use illustration to show when stairs go up/down but they're (in and of themselves) flat.There are going to be 3D tiles - but (at least based on
The (standard) tiles are the same (dimensionally) as the dungeon tiles you can purchase at your FLGS. They use illustration to show when stairs go up/down but they're (in and of themselves) flat. There are going to be 3D tiles - but (at least based on the DDXP demo) they're largely "set pieces" - braziers and the like.
I dunno, WolfStar. That's pretty shoddy, considering what the technology is capable of.
I dunno, WolfStar. That's pretty shoddy, considering what the technology is capable of.
I dunno, WolfStar. That's pretty shoddy, considering what the technology is capable of.
Possibly - but keep in mind that the design goal is to emulate your kitchen/den/game table, and to do so with minis and tiles.
It does that.
It would (will?) be great if (when?) they *do* add Z-axis support to allow for things ranging from flying/underwater combat, or even something as simple as stepping a foot or two up onto a raised altar.
I suppose one could argue that the design goal of merely emulating a 2D space was short-sighted, but I do believe this is the first attempt to do it with an isometric view instead of a top-down view. (I could be wrong, I don't know the features of *every* VTT).
Credit where credit is due for trying a 3D *view* at least.
Possibly - but keep in mind that the design goal is to emulate your kitchen/den/game table, and to do so with minis and tiles.It does that.It would (will?) be great if (when?) they *do* add Z-axis support to allow for things ranging from flying/under
I suppose one could argue that the design goal of merely emulating a 2D space was short-sighted, but I do believe this is the first attempt to do it with an isometric view instead of a top-down view. (I could be wrong, I don't know the features of *every* VTT).
But this is a novelty, and nothing more. Five silver pieces says that no one uses the isometric view after the first week, because all it does is make tight spaces harder to see and interact with.
Great for demos, not so great for actual play, I would think. It all hinges on how flexible Wizards makes the camera. Camera control has made or broken many, many games.
But this is a novelty, and nothing more. Five silver pieces says that no one uses the isometric view after the first week, because all it does is make tight spaces harder to see and interact with.Great for demos, not so great for actual play, I woul
Well, keeping in mind that there are no "walls" to bump against (at launch at least), camera control appears to be a non-issue. It looked, in the demo, like the camera is fully free-floating.
So you can pan around the map (or what's been revealed at least), tilt to find the angle you want, and then rotate to face your character, or the monster fighting him.
Oh, and zoom in/out as well.
Well, keeping in mind that there are no "walls" to bump against (at launch at least), camera control appears to be a non-issue. It looked, in the demo, like the camera is fully free-floating.So you can pan around the map (or what's been revealed at
I am anxious to see and use the virtual table, but they can stuff their virtual boosters where the virtual light doesn't virtually shine. I have bought a full metric ****load of D&D minis - several thousand - and I'll be damned if I am now going to spend penny-one to buy them again made of light instead of plastic.
Free upgrades are the only acceptable option.
I am anxious to see and use the virtual table, but they can stuff their virtual boosters where the virtual light doesn't virtually shine. I have bought a full metric ****load of D&D minis - several thousand - and I'll be damned if I am now going to s
I am anxious to see and use the virtual table, but they can stuff their virtual boosters where the virtual light doesn't virtually shine. I have bought a full metric ****load of D&D minis - several thousand - and I'll be damned if I am now going to spend penny-one to buy them again made of light instead of plastic.
Free upgrades are the only acceptable option.
So you would want to trade in your real plastic for virtual plastic?
I am curious, would it be virtual boosters, or virtual sets?
I can see boosters cute for DDM-Online type limited format, but for D&D the whole problem with geting minis is the random aspect. Why would you want to buy a "booster" of random minis in order to get a few goblins to place in the dungeons?
What will prevent the Character Builder form making monster race PCs that can then be used as monsters? Doesn't the game table include a system for House rules? Shouldn't that system (sicne it does not do any sort of rule enforcment) allow for creating a PC from a monster race othe than those specifically outlined to be PC races? For example those people wanting gnome PCs, since the gnome will have information in the MM for using it as a PC class.
So then will the Character Builder not be able to supply free v-minis to all if the races are optional PC races? Or would it be that only PCs can used the "minis" created with the Character Builder 3D modeller tool? Then it would mean you could NOT use the optional races from the MM as PCs because they would not be inherently built into the engine for building the character models...
So which way does it work AFAWK?
So you would want to trade in your real plastic for virtual plastic?I am curious, would it be virtual boosters, or virtual sets?I can see boosters cute for DDM-Online type limited format, but for D&D the whole problem with geting minis is the random
I can see boosters cute for DDM-Online type limited format, but for D&D the whole problem with geting minis is the random aspect. Why would you want to buy a "booster" of random minis in order to get a few goblins to place in the dungeons?
Its not just the randomness (and remember, they said they were looking into a non-random solution, so really at this time any fussing about it is complete speculation, and hence, needless frustration) its also the frequency.
Take the current IRL minis set Dungeons of Dread. Say I want to have 10 of them nasty Kobolds swarm you! I bought two full "cases" (24 booster boxes total) at ~$250ish with taxes and such and got 8 of them. Hmmm. 3 Dire wolves. Some figures I didn't get at all!
So much for my plan with the epic kobold horde.
"Ah, but you can mix in other monsters into the encounter ..." and I wonder if that style of mix-n-match-monsters encounter design was decided upon because of this exact issue.
Regardless (and I don't believe WotC conspiracy theories), I won't be paying a cent for v-minis, and that means I most likely won't be paying a cent for DDI either. For me, the appeal of DDI was the magazines, not the online tools. No matter what WotC does, I can get computerized fantasy better, cheaper, and more flexible to my gaming lifestyle than DDI is shaping up to be, and I can get better D&D on my real table than DDI can provide. The need to game 24/7 online is NOT a draw for me.
Its not just the randomness (and remember, they said they were looking into a non-random solution, so really at this time any fussing about it is complete speculation, and hence, needless frustration) its also the frequency.Take the current IRL minis
What I think you are saying is the new encounter structure will let you mix other things in with the kobolds of equal value if you do not have enough kobold minis. That is cute, but if you want the battle of jsut kobolds then there should be a way for it without spending $250 and not getting enough. The non-random solution would be great so long as the frequency of the monsters is not a part of the price. Just because a monster may be rare to be seen by common people in a D&D world, doesn't mean that real world it is all that rare. Everyone who eve bought a MM knows what those rare monsters are, and all the rest that ever looked at one. The real minis fail in this with the skirmish game not providing for the RPG what is needed because of its collectible aspect and attempt to emulate CCG as a product model. They have had to remake "beholder"s twice now to make players happy. You shouldn't have to spend $40 a piece for any mini, especially not a plastic poorly painted/molded one. The old metal minis were never that expensive. Even larger minis containing more metal were rarely more than $30, and metal has a higher level of sculpting detail that is retainable in the final product.
These v-minis will never sell enough to pay for any R&D on them, I agree. They will probably have some scale pricing based on the frequency which will mean the more rare the creature the less you should have the players fight, so the more expensive it is to prevent kiler DMs or something.... A penny each would be about all the minis would be worth if that much, because you cannot do anything with them outside of the game table. Seeing DDM players will also try the game table for play as well is why I mentioned the strong possibility of random boosters. Who would want to have to buy minis to test play warbands that they already own though?
Buying minis sounds like if EverQuest had something that Sony required you to pay $X to make items in the game that are already a part of it. Monopoly selling you the board, but making you buy the cards, dice,houses, hotels, deeds, money, and pieces (thimble, car, etc); all seperately.
What I think you are saying is the new encounter structure will let you mix other things in with the kobolds of equal value if you do not have enough kobold minis. That is cute, but if you want the battle of jsut kobolds then there should be a way fo
Regardless (and I don't believe WotC conspiracy theories), I won't be paying a cent for v-minis, and that means I most likely won't be paying a cent for DDI either. For me, the appeal of DDI was the magazines, not the online tools. No matter what WotC does, I can get computerized fantasy better, cheaper, and more flexible to my gaming lifestyle than DDI is shaping up to be, and I can get better D&D on my real table than DDI can provide. The need to game 24/7 online is NOT a draw for me.
Ditto squared. There are just many better products out there. Im not going to support a bad product because of brand loyalty. This reminds of of DDO. The company that made it (turbine I believe)assumed they could make less in an MMO and charge me the same as other MMOs and that I would pay it because it was D&D.They were incorrect. I think that game is still hanging on, but I dont think it was anything near the success they expected.
I am assuming that DDI will make enough scratch to hang on as well based on brand loyalty. But that scratch wont be coming from my wallet. If I am going to be asked to pay a premium subscription rpice, then I want a premium service. What ive seen so far, is a VTT with the graphics sold seperately, a bunch of web updates that we will now be charged for that we used to get for free, and the promise of some tools that we will also likely be able to get for free elsewhere (I think the hold up on the GSL is in fact to try and eliminate some of the competing free tools and make it so that by releasing them you are damaging WOTCs intellectual property, thusly making them grey market or outright illegal. If this turns out to be the case, then it will be avery sad day indeed.), that we have been getting for free the duration of 3.x.
Unless something drastically changes from what they have shown us, then i could not in good conscience reccomend the product to anyone, as there are a lot of other better and cheaper products out there than what WOTC has shown described thus far (but maybe that will change int he near future if they would quit being so tightlipped about the whole thing, but I personnaly doubt it).
Be good
Ditto squared. There are just many better products out there. Im not going to support a bad product because of brand loyalty. This reminds of of DDO. The company that made it (turbine I believe)assumed they could make less in an MMO and charge me the
(I think the hold up on the GSL is in fact to try and eliminate some of the competing free tools and make it so that by releasing them you are damaging WOTCs intellectual property, thusly making them grey market or outright illegal. If this turns out to be the case, then it will be avery sad day indeed.)
In case you missed it, the GSL appears to be final and will be free on June 6th.
they lost me on this one. i recently moved away from the place i grew up, lived, worked, and gamed at for almost 30 years. i'm a perfect candidate for what they're proposing and they've lost me. the price is too expensive even if they were to include the minis. why should i buy the books, buy the real minis, buy the virtual minis, and still pay a monthly fee??? lets put it in perspective: WoW $15 all monsters/worlds/rules included, no "work" to do. Xbox Live: $5 per month, must buy games (each one equivalent to two books price wise), no work DNDI: $15 per month (or a hefty $120 per year upfront), includes two web magazines that i value little, every physical accessory still needs to be bought, virtual accessories are sometimes extra, and i have to do all the work planing the adventure... if it were $10 (or $60 per year upfront), i'd still do it despite the virtual minis debacle. it's just not worth the price for what they're offering.
they lost me on this one. i recently moved away from the place i grew up, lived, worked, and gamed at for almost 30 years. i'm a perfect candidate for what they're proposing and they've lost me. the price is too expensive even if they were to inc
they lost me on this one. i recently moved away from the place i grew up, lived, worked, and gamed at for almost 30 years. i'm a perfect candidate for what they're proposing and they've lost me. the price is too expensive even if they were to include the minis. why should i buy the books, buy the real minis, buy the virtual minis, and still pay a monthly fee??? lets put it in perspective: WoW $15 all monsters/worlds/rules included, no "work" to do. Xbox Live: $5 per month, must buy games (each one equivalent to two books price wise), no work DNDI: $15 per month (or a hefty $120 per year upfront), includes two web magazines that i value little, every physical accessory still needs to be bought, virtual accessories are sometimes extra, and i have to do all the work planing the adventure... if it were $10 (or $60 per year upfront), i'd still do it despite the virtual minis debacle. it's just not worth the price for what they're offering.
Unless something has changed recently, it IS $10/month if you purchase a year up front... you have free access to unlimited tokens... you can import your own graphics and draw your own floorplans for free... free voip... free access to the rules database (even for books you dont own). You dont need to buy the 3d minis, or the pseudo 3d tiles. Use tokens and imported maps.
If you like WoW or Xbox live because there's 'no work' (wow...never thought I'd hear a game being called "work"), then play those. There are many of us that are tired of repetitive 'go bring me 6 bear pelt' quests and would like to have story and depth, something the mmo market and the xbox market cant capture. Most of us who GM ENJOY creating adventures and dont view it as work. I suppose for us, the $10/month is worth it to have online cross referenced rules, an adventure database to draw from, issues of dungeon/dragon to get the creative juices flowing, a character generator that is always 'up to date', a vtt, voip, and an OPTION to use 3d minis rather than tokens.
If you dont live near your gaming group, why buy the real minis? Back in my 'youth' I would buy tons of minis and you know what? It didnt make the games any better than when we used tokens. In fact, as I aged (rather gracefully, i might add), I began to prefer tokens as tokens have a bit more flexibility. Still, nothing compares to using coins, pencil erasers, torn bits of paper, etc. All things we used before inkjet printers and before minis were readily available.
Unless something has changed recently, it IS $10/month if you purchase a year up front... you have free access to unlimited tokens... you can import your own graphics and draw your own floorplans for free... free voip... free access to the rules data
I think one of the differences that makes paying for the "official" game line of miniatures is the difference in the core thinking of the specific game-genre player:
[INDENT]Collectible Minis Player: OMG! I just got the super-deluxe rare, glow-in-the-dark Mummy Conquistador! Awesome! I am *so* going to rule at the next gaming tournament, where I expect my mini to be on the game table for the duration of the round (say 30 min for giggles) for however many rounds I will play (say 4 rounds.) [/INDENT]
[INDENT]RPG Player: You open the crypt door, to see ... Hey Bob - pass me that thing right there, yeah - the kinda yellow-ish one ... you see this mummy ... anyways, for the next 10 minutes of real life you are going to be fighting this dude, and then we move on to the Kobold embalming room ... oooh - spooky![/INDENT]
The value, appeal etc of marketing v-minis isn't the same because the usage I intend isn't based on the rarity of the figure and its impact on the game. I just want to have the figures "look cool."
While you can say "but you have to buy figures and such in real life" I agree. But I see coming to the v-table like this...
You've gone to a friend's house to play your session, and you're DMing. Your friend has shelves of figures in his game room, sitting there all enticing-like. All you have to do is reach up and borrow one ...
[INDENT]"Umm, Dave - you can't use any of those unless you buy them."
"Bob? I just want to use it for 5 minutes ... this is your table, your room, and your game - I already had to pay a rental fee just to play here tonight!"
"I know, but you see, its the super-deluxe rare, glow-in-the-dark Mummy Conquistador ..."[/INDENT]
Finally, I think if they previewed it as 2d tokens only, we'd have all been "Cool. Sounds good." Then, on release offered 3d minis for purchase, we'd have gone "Way cool!" and bought them. Instead, the v-table with 3d minis was previewed as a package deal. You got v-table? You get v-minis! We're all going "Uber-sweet!" and then they slide in butyougottapayforthem at the end ... I can't help but go "Why?"
I think one of the differences that makes paying for the "official" game line of miniatures is the difference in the core thinking of the specific game-genre player:[INDENT]Collectible Minis Player: OMG! I just got the super-deluxe rare, glow-in-th
**Unless something has changed recently, it IS $10/month if you purchase a year up front... **
yeah, like i said, $120 upfront for the year... 12 months x $10 per month = $120... also, some people may not have that $120 lying around if they're in college (i know i didn't when i was) so they will have to pay the $15.
**If you like WoW or Xbox live because there's 'no work' (wow...never thought I'd hear a game being called "work"), then play those. There are many of us that are tired of repetitive 'go bring me 6 bear pelt' quests and would like to have story and depth, something the mmo market and the xbox market cant capture. Most of us who GM ENJOY creating adventures and dont view it as work.**
actually, i was a dm for a weekly campaign for years. it is fun but it's still work. as for wow, it's an example; i've never played it so i won't go back to it because that doesn't apply to me. the cost is equivalent to games where you do no work yet they require you to actually do the work.
my point is that they're charging us a hefty upfront fee and then charging us for individual components. obviously, you're the kind of person who is willing to put up with this from the tone of your message and your selective quotation marks/capitalization. i'm not.
**Unless something has changed recently, it IS $10/month if you purchase a year up front... **yeah, like i said, $120 upfront for the year... 12 months x $10 per month = $120... also, some people may not have that $120 lying around if they're in col
Ultimately it's going to be up to people to vote with their wallets.
Until I see the pricing on what a pack of v-minis is going for, and until I decide if "need" those minis for a session or not, I'm not going to speculate on the worth of the minis.
There are tokens that are perfectly usable, and they're included with the service. I can customize them with whatever pics and stats I want.
Why people feel a need to villify WotC for the choice is beyond me. Don't like it? Don't pay for the minis. If sales are "stale" enough they'll either offer more minis for free, make better bundles of minis or stop making minis.
Ultimately it's going to be up to people to vote with their wallets.Until I see the pricing on what a pack of v-minis is going for, and until I decide if "need" those minis for a session or not, I'm not going to speculate on the worth of the minis.T
my point is that they're charging us a hefty upfront fee and then charging us for individual components. obviously, you're the kind of person who is willing to put up with this from the tone of your message and your selective quotation marks/capitalization. i'm not.
I'm willing to put up with it as long as I'm getting value from it. I'm optimistic about their plans and scope and I'm willing to try the service for a couple of months..however, if updates are far and few between, then I'll cancel the service.
What's my benchmark? Let's look at fantasy grounds (a GREAT piece of VTT software): Full GM license: $40 player license: $25x5=$125 SRD license (rules-database-lite since its only the srd): $6.50x6=$39 Total expenditure: 125+40+39=$204
I need 2 'full subs' to DDI to get enough guest passes to play...$20/month. Roughly 10 months to match what fantasy grounds gives me (minus the voip, minus the full rules database, etc). So, I'm looking at an April 2009 D-day.
If wotc went ala-carte, at this stage of the game, their vtt would tank as it doesnt really offer anything beyond fantasy grounds....yet. If I had to have something 'now' that was proven, I would go ala-carte on the rules database and use fantasy grounds with ventrilo.
Which is another fair comparison. A 10-man vent server alone is $3 a month.
BUT, I'm willing to take the risk that DDI pans out within 10 months. Like I said, an 'always current' character generator is a great feature alone, let alone the packaging of all the utilities into a coherent bundle. Add in the full rules database which is always up to date with the latest errata and to me, $10 seems fair.
Honestly, I wish wotc hadnt even offered 3d-minis...it would negate all the complaining about the microtransaction model. As it stands, ddi is 'competitive'. However, thats assuming their software offers similar functionality to fantasy grounds.
I'm willing to put up with it as long as I'm getting value from it. I'm optimistic about their plans and scope and I'm willing to try the service for a couple of months..however, if updates are far and few between, then I'll cancel the service.What'
Here's a wild-a** option for those who are balking about $10/month + optional microtransactions for 3d minis:
1) Players could share a gaming account. The money players save on the pizza fund could go toward the DDI account fund. 2) Players could chip in for minis. Much like I expect players to help supply some minis (or at least bring 2 12 packs of soda to every game..and to leave the leftovers behind), you could expect them to help supply the minis.
Here's some more justification math:
Pizza fund: $5 Junk food : $8 Soda: $6 Booze: $10
thats for one game (at least at mine...ymmv)
Now...those that make use of the service could chip in some $ for minis. Honestly, unless wotc is reaaallly nuts, the 3d minis are going to be cheap. I would expect full blown encounters to cost $3 (eg. dozen orcs). Let your players absorb some of the cost.
Personally, I'm not above 'gm incentive' (aka. bribery).
A gaming hobby's cost should never be absorbed by a single person (I made this mistake long ago). If you are, spread the cost around.
As the GM, you are putting in your time to create a fun game for your players...the LEAST they can do is help contribute to the cause.
And moochers make GREAT targets ... "hey..why is every archer aiming at ME all the time??" ... "because you're cheap"...
Here's a wild-a** option for those who are balking about $10/month + optional microtransactions for 3d minis:1) Players could share a gaming account. The money players save on the pizza fund could go toward the DDI account fund. 2) Players could ch
Wait, I'm confused. V-Minis are for sure going to cost money? How does it work? I own a lot of DDM...and I own every Dungeon Tile set released. I don't want to pay for that ****, because I already did.
Someone please clarify because I'm about to go on a rampage. $15/month + the ******* cost of V-minis? If they had some kind of NO HASSLE, non-set only exchange service, then fine, but outside of that...no ****ing way. Just not going to happen.
Wait, I'm confused. V-Minis are for sure going to cost money? How does it work? I own a lot of DDM...and I own every Dungeon Tile set released. I don't want to pay for that ****, because I already did. Someone please clarify because I'm about to go o
Wait, I'm confused. V-Minis are for sure going to cost money? How does it work? I own a lot of DDM...and I own every Dungeon Tile set released. I don't want to pay for that ****, because I already did.
Someone please clarify because I'm about to go on a rampage. $15/month + the ******* cost of V-minis? If they had some kind of NO HASSLE, non-set only exchange service, then fine, but outside of that...no ****ing way. Just not going to happen.
Once more? Alright.
The Game Table comes with 2D "tokens" (think Checkers pieces) of all the monsters in the Monster Manual. It also comes with 2D tiles. You have the option of drawing your own maps or importing your own images and dropping the "grid" (movement squares) onto the image. You can also mix-n-match - import your image, then drop tiles onto it.
IF you CHOOSE to go with 3D minis, they are for sell at a "microtransaction" price (I'm assuming $1 - $3 as that's the microtransaction cost they were bandying about when they were still talking about having digital copies of physical book purchases).
This will buy you non-random sets of 3D minis to use on the Game Table. This might be a band of kobolds, goblins, or a pack of wolves. It might also simply be a Large Dragon or other Iconic.
There are also 3D tiles for sale - these add set dressing to your Game Table session. Want a 3D brazier? Maybe an Alter? Throne? These kinds of things will also be available as *optional* microtransactions.
The "DM" is *not* required to bear the burden of cost on these items, however, as all players connected to a Game Table Online session "pool" their resources together for that sessions GM to use. (If I have a pack of Kobolds, you have a pack of Wolves, and we connect to JimBob's game session JimBob can toss my wolves and your kobolds at us in encounters).
If there isn't a mini to represent what you want (like that half-werewolf assain-vine you created on the fly) you can make your own tokens as well. Simply find an image you'd like to use, import it, use their circular cropping too to cut it down to size, and BAM. New monster.
Note - this is all based on what I've seen and heard at DDXP in Feb/Mar. Nothing is set in stone until WotC says otherwise.
Once more? Alright.The Game Table comes with 2D "tokens" (think Checkers pieces) of all the monsters in the Monster Manual. It also comes with 2D tiles. You have the option of drawing your own maps or importing your own images and dropping the "gr
Well, that's not as bad as I had thought, but it still confirms for me that this officially sucks.
How dare, and I emphasize that, how ****ing dare they have the balls to ask $15/month (for what?! a ****ing virtual table?) in addition to these ****ing microtransactions (MapleStory anyone?) for miniatures that should be included. So for $15/month we get a little table, access to a rules database...and...?
Tsk tsk, Wizards. I was almost entirely sure about signing up for this, but now I'm going to have to think very hard.
Tokens, lol...
Well, that's not as bad as I had thought, but it still confirms for me that this officially sucks.How dare, and I emphasize that, how ****ing dare they have the balls to ask $15/month (for what?! a ****ing virtual table?) in addition to these ****ing
Well, that's not as bad as I had thought, but it still confirms for me that this officially sucks.
How dare, and I emphasize that, how ****ing dare they have the balls to ask $15/month (for what?! a ****ing virtual table?) in addition to these ****ing microtransactions (MapleStory anyone?) for miniatures that should be included. So for $15/month we get a little table, access to a rules database...and...?
and. . . . Character Generator Character Visualizer Encounter Creator Dungeon Magazine Dragon Magazine Map Maker (with printable output).
Map Maker and Character Generator are supposedly free components.
I forgot they'd moved Map Maker.
and I suppose I should say something more like "Character Creator Advanced" as didn't they say there would be differences? (One fills everything in, the other is form? Something like that?)
I forgot they'd moved Map Maker.and I suppose I should say something more like "Character Creator Advanced" as didn't they say there would be differences? (One fills everything in, the other is form? Something like that?)
and I suppose I should say something more like "Character Creator Advanced" as didn't they say there would be differences? (One fills everything in, the other is form? Something like that?)
I thought both filled in everything, but the subscribere gets the stats, while non-subscribers only get page number for things.
Feats: Run, Can move twice as fast.
vs.
Feats: Run, PHB page 63
Hopefully it would add all the modifiers and such, and even include the skills corresponding ability score.
Jump (STR)
rather than
Jump (PHB, page 108)
The free preview period may let peopel only examine the full version, or may show both incarnations so non-subscribers see what portions are crippled in it for them to try to get more subscribers. This hasn't really been clearified, nor has the way you will be able to "print" maps from any free Map Maker version. In other words, will it print only, or save image files of the map for non-subscribers, while subscribers may get other options like saving layers to edit maps later and add new things, while non-subscribers must start over with a clean/empty map to add things to a previously created map.
This is just from memory with no references to where around this site I saw the information.
I thought both filled in everything, but the subscribere gets the stats, while non-subscribers only get page number for things.Feats: Run, Can move twice as fast.vs.Feats: Run, PHB page 63Hopefully it would add all the modifiers and such, and even in
Good enough info (and reasonable enough speculation) for me.
I'll keep the above in mind when comparing/contrasting in the future.
I wasn;t try to argue with your point, just trying to make sure that facts I have are correct, or that I am understanding that which I have read. Of course, you may have missed some info with how much is going around in various places. When I signed up here I had hoped it would all be in one place for easier assimilation, but alas it seems that EMWorld is the best place to find all the up-to-date information.
I wasn;t try to argue with your point, just trying to make sure that facts I have are correct, or that I am understanding that which I have read. Of course, you may have missed some info with how much is going around in various places. When I signed
1st...lets all remember the monthly fee.....worth it from what ive seen, but only as long as we can play as often and when ever we want...with out lag!!!
2nd...vminis...the monster manual should give us at least 1 of every creature in the book...but i expect that, just like magic online, you will be able to buy boosters with random monsters(yes...i know)...my point is that there will be bots selling and trading minis just like in mtgo...i would suspect also that if u complete a set u can redeem for physical set but u know...speculation
3rd...its gonna be really awesome...but dont nickel and dime us to death
1st...lets all remember the monthly fee.....worth it from what ive seen, but only as long as we can play as often and when ever we want...with out lag!!!2nd...vminis...the monster manual should give us at least 1 of every creature in the book...but i
1st...lets all remember the monthly fee.....worth it from what ive seen, but only as long as we can play as often and when ever we want...with out lag!!!
They've said there will be "reasonable limits" on how long a single session can last (I'm assuming that means somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 hours). This is fairly reasonable since you can just re-establish a "new" session and should be able to pickup where you left off if you *really* need to play that long.
There have been no indications (aside from a marketing poll about 3 years ago) that you'll have a limit to the number of sessions you can play per month. As always, remember to leave them time for maintenance downtime - a few hours a week at least.
2nd...vminis...the monster manual should give us at least 1 of every creature in the book...but i expect that, just like magic online, you will be able to buy boosters with random monsters(yes...i know)...my point is that there will be bots selling and trading minis just like in mtgo...i would suspect also that if u complete a set u can redeem for physical set but u know...speculation
We've been told repeatedly that there will NOT be randomized mini packs. Period. When you buy 3D minis you'll know what you're getting.
The game table will come with 2D tokens of all the creatures in the Monster Manual.
3rd...its gonna be really awesome...but dont nickel and dime us to death
The available microtransactions are all optional. Toxic amounts of nickel should be reported to your local poison control center.
They've said there will be "reasonable limits" on how long a single session can last (I'm assuming that means somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 hours). This is fairly reasonable since you can just re-establish a "new" session and should be able to
ok...thnx Wolfstar76 for the info........2d tokens for each creature in mm isnt bad ...then i suppose u can upgrade each of them( or some) to 3d minis...not bad.....i like it.......im curious though.........if my group encounters a group of say 5 orcs will i have 5 2d tokens to play with or will i need to purchash more (or 3d)..?
and while the length of each session is important i think it more important to be able to play as often as you wish...:D ..any new word on this?
ok...thnx Wolfstar76 for the info........2d tokens for each creature in mm isnt bad ...then i suppose u can upgrade each of them( or some) to 3d minis...not bad.....i like it.......im curious though.........if my group encounters a group of say 5 orc
ok...thnx Wolfstar76 for the info........2d tokens for each creature in mm isnt bad ...then i suppose u can upgrade each of them( or some) to 3d minis...not bad.....i like it.......im curious though.........if my group encounters a group of say 5 orcs will i have 5 2d tokens to play with or will i need to purchash more (or 3d)..?
As they've shown you'll be able to make your own 2D tokens if you like (so you can take a photo of your players and make them into new monsters if you so desire, or your cat, or your homeroom teacher, or draw your own in photoshop, etc). Since the 2D tokens have that kind of freedom I'm *assuming* that they're freely cloneable.
That's not the case with the minis, however. If you have 5 kobold minis, and need a 6th kobold, you're out of luck. This is offset, however, by the fact that the minis of all the players connected to a session are made into one large "pool" for the DM's use.
and while the length of each session is important i think it more important to be able to play as often as you wish...:D ..any new word on this?
No official word (that I've seen), no, but again there's been NO indication that you can't start a game any time you like.
As they've shown you'll be able to make your own 2D tokens if you like (so you can take a photo of your players and make them into new monsters if you so desire, or your cat, or your homeroom teacher, or draw your own in photoshop, etc). Since the 2
adding the 2d token is a nice touch but the point some of us are trying to make is, that for $15, you shouldn't have to do that... they should be provided in our opinions. if they were to charge $5, i'm fine with making my own tokens.
adding the 2d token is a nice touch but the point some of us are trying to make is, that for $15, you shouldn't have to do that... they should be provided in our opinions. if they were to charge $5, i'm fine with making my own tokens.
adding the 2d token is a nice touch but the point some of us are trying to make is, that for $15, you shouldn't have to do that... they should be provided in our opinions. if they were to charge $5, i'm fine with making my own tokens.
Huh? The tokens ARE included.
Making your own is simply there if you want to "homebrew" a monster. They're not forcing you to make them.
:confused: Huh? The tokens ARE included.Making your own is simply there if you want to "homebrew" a monster. They're not forcing you to make them.
everytime you post i hear in the back of my head *Ra-Ra-Sis-Boom-Bah!!* and picture an avatar waving pompoms and jumping up and down. lol i guess my soundtrack would be something dark in tone from empire strikes back.
are the tokens included going to have the appropriate monster picture on them already?
everytime you post i hear in the back of my head *Ra-Ra-Sis-Boom-Bah!!* and picture an avatar waving pompoms and jumping up and down. lol i guess my soundtrack would be something dark in tone from empire strikes back.are the tokens included going
everytime you post i hear in the back of my head *Ra-Ra-Sis-Boom-Bah!!* and picture an avatar waving pompoms and jumping up and down. lol i guess my soundtrack would be something dark in tone from empire strikes back.
are the tokens included going to have the appropriate monster picture on them already?
The ones from the Monster Manual that are included with the Game Table will have the correct pics *and stats* already on them.
There will also be "blank" tokens you can turn into your own devious monsters.
The ones from the Monster Manual that are included with the Game Table will have the correct pics *and stats* already on them.There will also be "blank" tokens you can turn into your own devious monsters.
Then again, the free and one time buy competition has tokens included. I cant for the life of me understand why the full 3-d bits are not included for the price of my subscription.
I equate them not including the 3-d graphics to an MMO or other subscription based offering telling thier customers that: "for the price of your subscription, your 3-d character will be doing combat with 2-d tokens, if youd like to do battle with fully animated 3-d monsters, you have to buy them seperately."
I'd be willing to wager that if a game like WoW were to try and sell the graphics as "optional content" that they would not be doing the business that they are currently doing.
As it stands there is nothing in the DDI package that hasnt been done before and done as a free product. The only unique advancement in the entire package is the advent of a VTT that has 3-d graphics. For WOTC to charge a subscription fee that is comparable to MMO pricing and to deliver a product that is subpar in comparison, and then on top of that charge for the graphics for the application on a piece by piece basis, just seems silly to me.
I really want to like DDI. In theory its a great idea, and something that could unite old groups and deliver an avenue for many players to participate in organized play that would not otherwise do so. But sadly I cannot get behind it with the current pricing structure. The microtransactions need to go bye bye as they relate to the miniatures and tiles.
With so many other digital products delivering full blown and realized 3-d worlds for the price WOTC is asking, and free alternatives that have the same level of immersion as the core subscription product (ie the VTT with no addition miniatures purchased), I feel that ultimately WOTC will be unable to compete int he current VTT/Digital Subscription/MMO market. I think it will get enough subscribers to be a niche product at best, which equates to very little support, and slow updates.
You want to sell minatures and tiles WOTC?
Then make 2-3 modules per quarter (fully importable maps, encounters, with stat, and story arc) and include a couple of unique V-minis, and/or 3-d tiles as bonuses to be included in the asking price of the module. It would probably drive the sale sof the module a bit further than they would normally go on thier own, and it is an optional component.
But all of the monsters that come out of the core books? We should get those for no additional cost. A nice catalogue of 3-d tiles, and regular updates/additions? We should get that with the price of the subscription.
Just as another point of debate. while I know many people in thios forum will say that the DDI product is NOT an MMO, and should not be held to the same standards of pricing. Thats all opinion, and there really can be no end to that debate lodged ina nything resembleing fact.
But DDI and MMOs all share many things in common v-minis in particualr share a theme with MMOs:3-d graphics.
So riddle me this Batman, with any given MMO (and the results here vary with size and scope of the MMO), I get hundreds of thousands of fully realized 3-d graphics, most of which are not just 3-d renders, but full blown animated A.I.'s with behavioral patterns. A fully realized 3-d world where EVERYthing is 3-d modeled, painted, interacts with physics in some cases has A.I. ascociated with it. And realtime lighting, Z axis, a full blown physics system, and complex character creation. There are also countless other programming costs, and additional elements to creating an MMO, including LOTS of writing of source material, that for some MMOs is creeping up on the size and scope of a PnP games print catalogue.These games also have a vibrant selection of sounds, usually including a custom made soundtrack, and hundreds of thousands of sound effects. These businesses manage to deliver ALL of these features for the same ballpark price that DDI boasts, and they are extremely profitable companies.
DDI is asking the same price for its service. There is NO A.I. The 3-models are not animated, and unless they are hand designing the textures for the minis, they could be skinned with a digital camera and conversion program. There is no 3-d world, no z axis. A single animated model must be skinned and rendered many times (is some cases depending upon the complexity and scope of animation options available this process may be repeated 100's of time, and in extreme cases 1000's of times. Now there are some shortcuts to be had when designing them within a game engine, but the process is still repeated manyt imes for EACH 3-d element), it has to have behavioural aspects programmed, and its sound elements programmed. WOTCs minatures, do not move, they have no A.I., they have no sound effects,they have a single skin, the only physics they possess are lateral movement across a 2-d surface.
Am I to believe that WOTCs very basic 3-d tiles and non-animated 3-d photos of thier current miniatures cost MORE to develop than the fully 3-d animated graphics that video games use? Of course they dont. So then comes the real kicker: If we know that WOTCs development costs are a fraction of your average MMO as far as graphic design is concerned, why is it that all MMOs give you the graphics for your subscription price and WOTC (which charges the same price mind you) does not? The money spent on developing a single v-mini is but a fraction a single animated component of the thousands you get with your MMO buck. Why is that?
You may rebound back with. Oh your buying dragon and dungeon subscriptions? Or perhaps the character generation tools? The rules database even?
All MMOs (hell any form of digital entertainment for that matter) has a story, In many cases a very large and exspansive story, that is constantly updated and added to. I would bet that these companies even have the financial burden of hiring artists, and writers to write these stories. I play WoW, and I can personally attest to the fact that is has a comprehensive backstory, and its updated regularly as part of the subscription fee.
Character generation? Well with going to deep on this, all RPG video games have character generation tools built into them. You cant play an RPG (MMO or otherwise) unless you have the ability to build a character and update it as you advance through the game. So yeah thats not really unique to WOTCs offering either.
And the price of implementing a rules database. Well lets just say WoW for example (and I know I keep using WoW, but its the most popular MMO and I feel it will make my points resonate with more folks by using it as the prime example as opposed to a more niche game) has a COMPREHENSIVE set of rules that not only has to look good on paper, but must actually be used and programmed into every single A.I. element the game has. With no rules and laws, then you cant play a game. And that type of rules implementation if far more costly to implement than an updatable index that will copy and paste itself into character sheets. When an MMO updates a rule they have to reprogram EVERY single element of the game world that relies on that rule as a part of its behavioral patterns. They dont get to make a web announcement and say "we have erattaed warlocks" they have to go in and physicallty chage the code, in addition to making the announcement. So the rules database that you get with WOTCs implementation, is actually a much easier resource to maintain and pay for that a real rules mechanic.
But for some reason, even though the MMO looks to cost more money in every way to develop and maintain. The companies boasting MMOs manage to do so AND make a lot of money. How is it that WOTC cannot? Why do thier graphics cost more, when the development of every aspect of DDI is less involved than your average MMO?
Ill tell you the truth. WOTCs graphics dont cost more than your average MMOs graphics, nor do any of the "other" selling points of DDI cost anymore to implement than the "other" portions of an MMO. Hasbro just wants to see how deep they can put thier claws into your wallet (or purses as the case may be) before you run away.
Im not buying into it. Logic dictates that the development costs of WOTCs offering are comparable to and much more likely a great deal less than MMO offerings (and this included every aspect of DDI, character sheets, rules database,VOIP,a nd servers, and V-minis), but I as the consumer, am expected to pay more for WOTCs service why? Because it has a D&D logo on it?
I believe I am a member of the target audience for the 4e movement. I play D&D, im not a greybeard, and I play MMOs. Ill say this (and this is my own personal opinion): playing MMOs and seeing what they offer for the price and then looking at the DDI offereing doesnt make me feel any more inclined to purchse/subscribe to WOTC products and services. In fact quite the opposite is true; having seen the quality of products that can be had for the asking price of $10-15/month, whats been shown thusfar of DDI pales in comparison, in almost every way that it can be compared to any exsisting subscription digital content service. It is less of a product in most ways to any other offering. Why then is it the most exspensive digital offering on the market in the digital fantasy genre? (if you include the price of options in on top of the subscription price then at its per month rate, even a single microtransaction would make it more exspensive than then most exspensively priced MMO that is currently released. My "most exspensive" statement assumes that the typical user will buy at least some of the optional modules/minis/digital copies of books/tiles/whatever-else-they-charge-extra-for that is for sale each month. It is also based on the fact that in order to use WOTCs digital offering, it requires a signifigant rulebook, investment as well)
The sad truth is that I may have personally supported WOTCs offering even though it is subpar in the shadows of its digital fantasy competition, if they hadnt decided to nickel and dime me. I would have supported it because its D&D, and id like to see more quality D&D digital offerings (DDO, NWN2, and ToEE wer subpar in my eyes, and I wish Wotc would hire a company like Blizzard, Obsidian, or Bioware to do its next RPG. Atari fails and fails hard. Every D&D game they have ever been involved with sucks (with the sole exception of NWN1)
But I will not support a product that costs less to develop than its competition that charges as much as the most exspensive MMO in its basic form (meaning that DDI likely has the highest percent profit margin of any fantasy digital offering, before you even add microtransactions in), and then try and ask me to pay more on top of it for the graphics. I wont back it, and I advise all of you to avoid it as well unless they change the pricing scheme. What they are doing to you by selling the graphics as options is refered to in America in almost any field of business as: Highway Robbery.
Love,
Malkav
Then again, the free and one time buy competition has tokens included. I cant for the life of me understand why the full 3-d bits are not included for the price of my subscription.I equate them not including the 3-d graphics to an MMO or other subscr
I suspected that there was something fundamentally wrong with DDI's price scheme, it has now been made so clear!
Never has such eloquence and coherent arguments swayed my heart so profoundly! You Malkav, are a Hero!
Down with DDI! DOWN WITH DDI!! DOWN WITH DDI!!!
PS: I would love DDI to be a reasonably priced product! (but now I'm just waving a torch.)
I suspected that there was something fundamentally wrong with DDI's price scheme, it has now been made so clear!Never has such eloquence and coherent arguments swayed my heart so profoundly! You Malkav, are a Hero!Down with DDI! DOWN WITH DDI!! DOW
I suspected that there was something fundamentally wrong with DDI's price scheme, it has now been made so clear!
Never has such eloquence and coherent arguments swayed my heart so profoundly! You Malkav, are a Hero!
Down with DDI! DOWN WITH DDI!! DOWN WITH DDI!!!
Despite the negative undertones of my post. I would like to make it clear that I am not opposed to the idea of DDI.I actually think its a step int he right direction for the D&D IP. I am absolutely not in favor of:
Charging a second fee for the inclusion of graphics in a computer gaming program.
The idea was to illustrate that the cost to develop vs. consumer pricepoint when comparing DDI to other digital offerings did not merit in any way, shape, or form the extra price tag on the v-minis and 3-d tiles.
It was also meant to show in a little different light the bar that has been set in the digital fantasy genre by other offerings, and to anylitically compare DDI to them on a mechanical level to support my views about the errors I see in the pricing scheme.
It is not my wish to make "down with DDI" a reality. In fact it was my fondest wish while taking the time to write that lengthy reply (and a few others on this subject) that it would catch the eye of someone at WOTC that had the ability to change this awful pricing structure before the product is released, so that the product would more likely be a success.
If DDI succeeds, then the need for WOTC to spam us with splatbooks and change editions every few years gets decreased. So in all honesty I want DDI to be a smashing success. What I dont want is, to pay for an overpriced product three times.
Because in all honesty as it stands, if I want a regularly scheduled DDI gaming group with all the bells and whistles, I have to:
A. Buy rule books (everyone in the group does) @ 40$ ea. B. Subscribe to DDI @ 15$ a month C. Buy minatures and tiles (ie the graphics for the program) @ ??$ a month.
And I still have to spend my own time making the adventure. This is not a good pricing plan, and the graphics and depth of WOTCs program doesnt even begin to compare with poor MMOs that have smaller or free price tags.
It just doesnt add up to something that I feel like many people will buy, and I hope by expressing those views and concerns in a sensible and logical way (or at least I think I make sense, but I could be wrong about that), that perhaps some of the folks responsible for DDI, may look at them and use them as tools to help deliver a more better product that better resonates with the standards, tastes, and purchasing habits that define the current subscription based digital content that dominates the fantasy genre.
While I appreciate your compliment greatly, I would like to reiterate, that it is not my intent to create negative sentiment for this product. If I didnt like the idea of DDI I would not take out the time to research and write anything of value. As it stands, I do care about the product, and I wish for it to be a success. Thats why its all the more difficult for me to admit, that I absolutely will not be supporting it, if the pricing scheme stands, nor would I encourage anyone else to do so. But this is not because I wish the venture to fail. It is based strickly upon the nipple twist price point, and the lack of any justification for charging it.
Be good,
malkav
Despite the negative undertones of my post. I would like to make it clear that I am not opposed to the idea of DDI.I actually think its a step int he right direction for the D&D IP. I am absolutely not in favor of:Charging a second fee for the inclus
i agree with you wholeheartedly. i'm the perfect target for them... somewhat tech savy, early 30s, grew up with RPGs including D&D in the 80's, and just moved away from all my lifelong friend who also fit into the above categories. all five of the people in my old d&d group were at least interested in DNDi; three of us were gung ho about it. now, after the pricing structure as well as the additional fees are announced, none of us would touch the thing with a 10ft pole. we're still not happy about the cancelling of dungeon/dragon paper; virtual magazines and virtually worthless to us. the only thing we'd be paying for (since we're capable of actually *gasp* making characters offline without a generator) is the online gaming and they're nickel and dime'ing us on that. i'd accept this if it were $5 a month if paid a year in advance or maybe even $10 if billed monthly... not for $15 a month (and yes, it's either $15 a month or $120 a year, not $10 a month... try paying WOTC $10 a month with a post-it note IOU promising 11 more months of payments and see if you'll have the service)
i agree with you wholeheartedly. i'm the perfect target for them... somewhat tech savy, early 30s, grew up with RPGs including D&D in the 80's, and just moved away from all my lifelong friend who also fit into the above categories. all five of the
As long as we are forced to buy this service as a subscription, then all D&D materials and source books should be free. $14.95 a month is a big chunk of change. $180 a year is about what I spend on books. I expect to get the content if I'm paying that.
"BUT< BUT SOMEONE MAKES THE CONTENT! SHOULDN'T THEY BE PAID?!?!?!"
Of course. We're doing that every our subscription is due.
If we pay for minis, and source books, and every nickel and dime item then Gametable and support should be free or next to it. We should be able to enable the products we purcahse and use them forever.
It doesn't work both ways.
YMMV
As long as we are forced to buy this service as a subscription, then all D&D materials and source books should be free. $14.95 a month is a big chunk of change. $180 a year is about what I spend on books. I expect to get the content if I'm paying
"Although we recognize that Wizards is putting a lot out with this software, the price point seems really steep at the moment. Perhaps we'll see a reconsideration of the price before Insider launches."
gamespy has published a preview of DNDi http://pc.gamespy.com/articles/867/867920p1.htmlhere's the closing line of the article:"Although we recognize that Wizards is putting a lot out with this software, the price point seems really steep at the mome
It also doesn't mention that the tiles will be costing extra either. But then again its pretty much just a preview. I too am wonderign when WotC will tell us the price point at which they wish to peddle the graphics for this program.
But hey its suppoesed to launche about 35 days from now. Maybe they are trying to get a bunch of folks to plop down that $120 before dropping the bomb on mini pricing.
I really wish we could get some quality D&D digital products. I havent been really impressed with any digital products using the D&D IP since Baldurs Gate & Icewind Dale (not the crappy console versions either, the ones for the PC)
And DDO was a joke. I have played peoples persistant NWN1 worlds that have more depth and story (and content) then what was offered in DDO.
Oh well. At least its Friday
It also doesn't mention that the tiles will be costing extra either. But then again its pretty much just a preview. I too am wonderign when WotC will tell us the price point at which they wish to peddle the graphics for this program.But hey its suppo
You want the 3D v-mini figs to be free and included with your DDI subscription? Then don't buy the v-minis regardless of price, just use tokens.
Soon enough WoTC will get it and either offer them up free of charge or drop 3d tokens entirely.
I agree, there shouldn't be a DM tax just to run a game using 3d figs.
You want the 3D v-mini figs to be free and included with your DDI subscription? Then don't buy the v-minis regardless of price, just use tokens. Soon enough WoTC will get it and either offer them up free of charge or drop 3d tokens entirely.I agree
You want the 3D v-mini figs to be free and included with your DDI subscription? Then don't buy the v-minis regardless of price, just use tokens.
Soon enough WoTC will get it and either offer them up free of charge or drop 3d tokens entirely.
I agree, there shouldn't be a DM tax just to run a game using 3d figs.
Im not going to subscribe to DDI at all inless they include the v-minis in the price of the subscription. If I have to use tokens to play, im certainly not going to pay 15 bucks a month to do it on WotC's table. Im going to use the one time buy/less expensive competition for my 4e internet game table experience.
Im not going to subscribe to DDI at all inless they include the v-minis in the price of the subscription. If I have to use tokens to play, im certainly not going to pay 15 bucks a month to do it on WotC's table. Im going to use the one time buy/less
I sincerely hope WotC reconsiders the price point for DDI because otherwise the biggest loser will be...WotC and D&D. Like some other folks, I look at DDI as a wonderful innovation whose time has come. I am really excited about it and I really want it to succeed and expand. I am even willing to pay $15 a month (I'll happy cancel my WoW account, which only was ever a surrogate for not being able to play tabletop D&D with my friends anyway).
Now here's the rub: My willingness to pay $15 a month is meaningless unless all my friends are, too. If at least a substantial number of my old tabletoppers don't want to join DDI and play online with me, then there's hardly any point in my subscribing. The single best selling point of DDI is to allow friends separated by distance to play "virtual tabletop" again. But by setting the price point so high, WotC assure that every group of friends will have a few folks who will refuse. Not only does DDI not get those players, but they lose the others who would have been very eager to subscribe.
WotC should definitely consider a pricing scheme that allows a motivated DM to subscribe and get as many friends as possible to play at an affordable price. Very few casual players will plunk down $15 a month just to play a few hours a month with old friends. But they might pay $10 or at least $5; heck, I as DM might even pay a few extra bucks in order to have the power to invite friends to play (that's why I sincerely hope the promised "guest passes" come to fruition). Asking every player to pay $15 a month is a sure way to see that very, very few people pay $15 a month...and then the wonderful potential of DDI withers on the vine.
I sincerely hope WotC reconsiders the price point for DDI because otherwise the biggest loser will be...WotC and D&D. Like some other folks, I look at DDI as a wonderful innovation whose time has come. I am really excited about it and I really want
I sincerely hope WotC reconsiders the price point for DDI because otherwise the biggest loser will be...WotC and D&D. Like some other folks, I look at DDI as a wonderful innovation whose time has come. I am really excited about it and I really want it to succeed and expand. I am even willing to pay $15 a month (I'll happy cancel my WoW account, which only was ever a surrogate for not being able to play tabletop D&D with my friends anyway).
Now here's the rub: My willingness to pay $15 a month is meaningless unless all my friends are, too. If at least a substantial number of my old tabletoppers don't want to join DDI and play online with me, then there's hardly any point in my subscribing. The single best selling point of DDI is to allow friends separated by distance to play "virtual tabletop" again. But by setting the price point so high, WotC assure that every group of friends will have a few folks who will refuse. Not only does DDI not get those players, but they lose the others who would have been very eager to subscribe.
WotC should definitely consider a pricing scheme that allows a motivated DM to subscribe and get as many friends as possible to play at an affordable price. Very few casual players will plunk down $15 a month just to play a few hours a month with old friends. But they might pay $10 or at least $5; heck, I as DM might even pay a few extra bucks in order to have the power to invite friends to play (that's why I sincerely hope the promised "guest passes" come to fruition). Asking every player to pay $15 a month is a sure way to see that very, very few people pay $15 a month...and then the wonderful potential of DDI withers on the vine.
I agree with you, I don't play any of the MMORPG's (lame in my opinion) so my $15 will easily fit into the DDI. But my players will not pay $15 as well, they just can't for something that was free before. Being the DM, I will subscribe to have the tools to give them a visual world but again.. it won't happen if they have to pay the same amount. I will have to see too how these guest passes work for us.
EK
I agree with you, I don't play any of the MMORPG's (lame in my opinion) so my $15 will easily fit into the DDI. But my players will not pay $15 as well, they just can't for something that was free before. Being the DM, I will subscribe to have the
$15 a month,and if I want anything interesting on the Virtual table I have to make it my self as a 2d cutout or fork out more money for the virtual minies.
No thanks, if I want to use self made 2d virtual minies I'll use OpenRPG
$15 a month,and if I want anything interesting on the Virtual table I have to make it my self as a 2d cutout or fork out more money for the virtual minies.No thanks, if I want to use self made 2d virtual minies I'll use OpenRPG
$15 a month,and if I want anything interesting on the Virtual table I have to make it my self as a 2d cutout or fork out more money for the virtual minies.
No thanks, if I want to use self made 2d virtual minies I'll use OpenRPG
The creatures from the Monster Manual will have 2d tokens pre-made with pics and stats. Those are included with your subscription. You have the *option* of making your own 2D token to cover specific NPCs or homebrew monsters.
The creatures from the Monster Manual will have 2d tokens pre-made with pics and stats. Those are included with your subscription. You have the *option* of making your own 2D token to cover specific NPCs or homebrew monsters.
From what I have heard, along with your subscription, you will be given "guest passes" that you, as the DM, can give to your gamers who aren't subscribers so they can play on the table top as well on a per session basis. I am not sure how many you start out with as part of the subscription, but they mentioned being able to purchase more.
EDIT: Course now that I look a little more closely at a previous post I realize this was redundant. Sorry.
From what I have heard, along with your subscription, you will be given "guest passes" that you, as the DM, can give to your gamers who aren't subscribers so they can play on the table top as well on a per session basis. I am not sure how many you s
$15 a month,and if I want anything interesting on the Virtual table I have to make it my self as a 2d cutout or fork out more money for the virtual minies. No thanks, if I want to use self made 2d virtual minies I'll use OpenRPG
Man, I just stumbled across this site with one of the better programs out there...with an easy drag 'n drop interface to make 2D tokens to boot(read last post for site):
Don't know if this thought has been thrown out there - if not I would love WoTC send me free 4e books as payment for this idear:
In regards to V-minis, I would pay an extra hidden cost in the regular physical minis that seem to be churned out. To put some kind of protection on things, some kind of online registry could be setup where the stat cards of these same minis would have an online code that could be inputted into the system only once(each stat card of Common monsters, etc, would have a completely random X-series of characters that could be code-changed every month or release of the minis sets so hackers/code monkeys have to keep cracking until they get a life and a good woman/man/pet). Kind of like how everyone and their dog has done contests - no bottle cap liner for you anymore: now we've swapped to online play with a code found on your bottle, or container of your food/drink...
This would indeed churn into the desired cash flow/revenue stream WoTC wants as a business and the flipside is a touch more cash upfront to the consumer with the benefit(s) of hoarding codes and minis for both regular play as it is currently, PLUS online play when people unknowing of DDI, come to realize what those 'funny codes' are doing taking up space on their minis' stat cards...
Another spin-off is all those offline-pen-'n-paper players selling their online codes to people that play both or only online: They could even sell them back to WoTC at whatever rate(50% like a PC could sell stuff? LOL!) was acceptable for each tier(Common, Uncommon, Rare) so WoTC could start an online store that traded in second-hand online DDI v-mini codes - yet another revenue stream of self-perpetuated glory...
Again, WoTC, please be sure to email me on where to send my free lifetime supply of any and all 4E materials for making a butt-load of money for you - that or put me on the payroll as an 'idea-man'!!!
Man, I just stumbled across this site with one of the better programs out there...with an easy drag 'n drop interface to make 2D tokens to boot(read last post for site):[HTML]http://ihsatvan.yuku.com/topic/498/t/Moving-to-online.html?page=3[/HTML]Don
Nothing is set in stone until WotC says otherwise.
No truer words have been spoken in this thread - and based on the Ampersand earlier today, I wouold say DDI is ripe for change by us - the gamers.
*****
No truer words have been spoken in this thread - and based on the Ampersand earlier today, I wouold say DDI is ripe for change by us - the gamers.:dragon:*****
Hey guys. I've been looking through this thread, but can't seem to find a good answer.
Everyone seems to be speaking as if they are quite sure that WotC is charging for the v-minis. I can't find a link or a blog that says this though. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.
Hey guys. I've been looking through this thread, but can't seem to find a good answer.Everyone seems to be speaking as if they are quite sure that WotC is charging for the v-minis. I can't find a link or a blog that says this though. Can someone poin
Hey guys. I've been looking through this thread, but can't seem to find a good answer.
Everyone seems to be speaking as if they are quite sure that WotC is charging for the v-minis. I can't find a link or a blog that says this though. Can someone point me in the right direction? Thanks.
Will D&D Insider subscribers need to purchase Digital Miniatures/3D Tiles individually? The D&D Insider subscription will include a number of Digital Minis and 3D Tiles. Additional packs of minis and tiles can be purchased individually.
How will miniatures be involved in the online RPG game? There is no difference between using minis in online or traditional gameplay. Using Digital Miniatures or 3D Tiles on the D&D Game Table is entirely optional, as maps and tokens will also be available. The Digital Miniatures and 3D Tiles enhance online gameplay by providing more detailed accessories for your digital game, much like physical minis and tiles enhance traditional gameplay. Will all monsters be available as Digital Minis? Just as with the physical minis, there will not be a Digital Mini for every monster in the Monster Manual. However, those monsters that do not have a Digital Mini at launch will have a token that comes preset with the monster’s 4th Edition stats.
You do understand all this, right? You know how stupid you look for doing this, right? There are other tabletop emulators out there that charge a one-time flat rate and include tiles, miniatures, backdrops, just about any-damn-thing you can set on a grid...included.
"BUT OMGZ JANGA SOME1 HAS 2 MODEL TEH MINIS"
Oh, right on. But wait, shouldn't these already be modeled in a digital format? How hard is it to transfer? Surely not hard enough to warrant microtransactions. $15/month should cover that....MORE than cover that. I'm afraid Game Table is going to be a flop regardless- but milking your loyal customers for access to super-premium content (since $15/month gets you only normal-premium content) is going to leave you with a lot of angry dorks.
I don't know what business-exec genius thought up this idea of microtransactions- oh wait, they didn't think it up, they just stole it from "Free2Play" online MMORPGs- but he/she should be fired immediately. I get nickeled and dimed by my cable company, landlord, power company, and everyone else- but I will be damned if I'm going to let the company that I turn to for FUN do it.
My decision is made. No MTs, I will subscribe. If you include MTs, I will play exclusively offline.
Hey Wizzies...You do understand all this, right? You know how stupid you look for doing this, right? There are other tabletop emulators out there that charge a one-time flat rate and include tiles, miniatures, backdrops, just about any-damn-thing you
It is my belief that the new license will specifically prohibit ANY 'electronic game' - which would be anything that generates stats, rolls dice, levels up, etc.
Bottom line is that the concern is not that RPG Forge can't be in BOTH, but that no electronic tool or aid that does anything close to what the current competing tools out there do will be even allowed under the GSL. You will be able to use DDI, or nothing.
I to would like to add my voice of discontent. I was already upset that they were charging the same price as a full fledged video game that needs a team of development to fix not only bugs but to add new features to the line of development and keep abreast with the increase in technology. I simply do not see this the equivilent to a video game, and WoTc has preached that it is not. We still have to have a DM and put time (and time is money) in to making this work.
Another difference is that I cannot just login and play any time I feel like it (as I can with an online game), I am completely dependent on my group. You most likely will also not just log in and play for 30 min here and there like you can with an online game. These are all very very obvious, I don't understand why WoTc cannot see this.
So with this disappointment already heavy on my mind, and me wondering how on earth I can make this work so me and my three little ones can play with my brother and his two; I now learn that we will have to pay extra for the graphical additions to the online game experience!
I thought that is why we were having to pay this 'online game' price? Can you imaging World of Warcraft charging extra to have your weapons animated, or how about just having a digital character? or to have emotes? How about Aces High charging extra to be able to fly in a digital plane, if not we'll give you a token that has a picture of a plane on it!
I truly cannot believe this, in fact I found it so obsurd that I really did not believe it until I saw the FAQ quoted. Where is marketing? Where is your customer loyalty? You already have us strung out wondering how the heck we can get our group of friends motivated enough to have to pay $15 a month to play once or twice, to pay about $50 a game (x2 a month at around $100 for the group). Now that is some cash grabbin.
MacPharlan
I to would like to add my voice of discontent. I was already upset that they were charging the same price as a full fledged video game that needs a team of development to fix not only bugs but to add new features to the line of development and keep a
While I am very excited about the POTENTIAL DDI has, I must say the one thing I am very dismayed over hearing is having to purchase digital minis/tiles.
I mean, if you have a subscription to DDI, then you get access to ALL the books online with it... no proving you already own the physical books.
I get two copies of every DT set that comes out. I get 2 cases of every DDM release that comes out. I'll be dammed if I have to pay ON TOP OF MY SUBSCRIPTION for little 1's and 0's to represent those same things. (I think the subscription is worth it if we get what we are being told it will contain).
While I am very excited about the POTENTIAL DDI has, I must say the one thing I am very dismayed over hearing is having to purchase digital minis/tiles.I mean, if you have a subscription to DDI, then you get access to ALL the books online with it...
I will add my voice to the cries of discontent at the possibility of WotC charging us DMs above and beyond what we already are paying (and you know it will be the DMs that will have to pay the burden of buying virtual miniatures and terrain tiles - WTF would a player want with a lump of terrain?).
DMs pay for all 3 books. Players need only buy 1 book.
DMs pay out their time building the game. Players need but show up.
DMs are the ones that make your game so awesome - and this, WotC, is how you plan on rewarding them?
I suggest each and everyone of you out there - DMs or otherwise - email in a request to quit punishing those that actually drive this industry.
I will add my voice to the cries of discontent at the possibility of WotC charging us DMs above and beyond what we already are paying (and you know it will be the DMs that will have to pay the burden of buying virtual miniatures and terrain tiles - W
It seems that WoTC wants to have their cake, and my cake, and your cake, and eat them all...
They want to get an extra $15 a month out of us while maintaining their current revenue stream from books/mods/minis uninterrupted. :P
They want you to pay $15 a month for a DDI subscription, $40+ for books, $30ish for modules, and an additional undisclosed amount for 3d game tokens? Tokens that as someone pointed out, do not have any programming or A.I. associated with them. They just move where you click on the map... wheeee... Meanwhile the players and DM have to use their imagination to make the game come to life, just like we always did.
I don't see that WoTC is offering us much except the opportunity to spend even more money than we do already. Honestly I think that either a $15 a month subscription should give you access to all D&D published content (all books, mods, and minis), or the online apps should be sold for a one time fee ($50ish like most digital offerings), and then allow the user buy additional content using the traditional expansion model. This would support the model of asking us to buy the books/modules/minis to unlock them for use on virtual game table far better in my opinion.
Personally I don't spend $15 a month on D&D products now. I have the core 3.5 books and about 50-60 minis that I have had for about 15 years. When I need extras I use some numbered tiles I made along time ago. The first money I have spent on D&D in a very long time (years) was my recent purchase of the 4e H1 starter module.
If I could get everything for the price of the subscription, I would pay it.
If I have to pay for the content I want in addition to the subscription, I don't think I will bother.
Consider, if I pay $15 a month and buy no books, I get a game framework with no game in it. WTH? Why would anyone in their right mind pay for that? $180 for no game, unless you spend at least another $120...
WTH!!!!!
Please, please, give us something reasonable here guys. As many folks have stated, I REALLY want this to be a great moment in gaming history, an opportunity for D&D, the game that started it all, to snatch back some of the glory (and market share) that it has lost to the Everquests and WoW's of the world.
I have enjoyed playing D&D, and I am sure I will continue to enjoy it in some form or another for many years, but unless these pricing issues are addressed, I won't be doing it via your virtual tools.
Once again, I'll buy books/minis/etc..., or I'll pay a subscription, but I won't do both.
DJC, D&D Geek since 1979.
It seems that WoTC wants to have their cake, and my cake, and your cake, and eat them all...They want to get an extra $15 a month out of us while maintaining their current revenue stream from books/mods/minis uninterrupted. :P They want you to pay $1
If you are planning on charging above and beyond the monthly cost to be in D&DI so that DMs and players can have virtual minis and terrain to stand on, I strongly urge you to reconsider.
First, the DMs will be carrying the majority of this financial burden. To add insult to injury when we already are the ones buying all 3 core books, buying all the supplements AND actually being the ones that keep YOUR game fun and interesting so you can actually earn a living - well, this type of business practice will likely turn bad very quickly.
Second, too many other games out there already charge a monthly fee with no hidden agenda such as this seems to be. For shame on you again (if this is true).
Finally, if this is NOT true, I suggest you send someone out there to clarify that it is not true.
mahalo, John "Killer Dungeon Master" ZK (formerly known as, PenderGrass)
I will add my voice to the cries of discontent at the possibility of WotC charging us DMs above and beyond what we already are paying (and you know it will be the DMs that will have to pay the burden of buying virtual miniatures and terrain tiles - WTF would a player want with a lump of terrain?).
DMs pay for all 3 books. Players need only buy 1 book.
DMs pay out their time building the game. Players need but show up.
DMs are the ones that make your game so awesome - and this, WotC, is how you plan on rewarding them?
I suggest each and everyone of you out there - DMs or otherwise - email in a request to quit punishing those that actually drive this industry.
I just want to pay a monthly fee and be done with it. I can then enjoy the game. No need to worry about added expenses. Like Mac, I too have sent WoTC my opinion. mailto:dndinsider@wizards.com
Cheers!
I just want to pay a monthly fee and be done with it. I can then enjoy the game. No need to worry about added expenses. Like Mac, I too have sent WoTC my opinion. mailto:dndinsider@wizards.comCheers!
I just wanted to post an update. Your feedback has reached the decision makers and been discussed at length. I can't say when or if anything will change, but I do want to say that there has been some really compelling feedback presented on this issue and it is being given serious consideration.
I realize that may not be the exact answer everyone would like to hear right now, but I am very pleased that we've been able to bring the concerns of the community to the table and get them proper consideration.
I'll post know when I know more. Thanks to everyone for their constructive and compelling feedback.
Thanks, -Mike
Hi All,I just wanted to post an update. Your feedback has reached the decision makers and been discussed at length. I can't say when or if anything will change, but I do want to say that there has been some really compelling feedback presented on thi
I sincerely hope that the decision to include virtual minis with the DDI subscription happens. If it doesn't, myself and my brother (both DMs) will pass on DDI completely, and continue to use Fantasy Grounds II with 2D tokens.
Incidentally, WotC can't stop any software company from making 4th Edition compatible programs without the GSL. (They just have to respect copyright law.)
Note: Fantasy Grounds does not come with any of the text, maps, or token you see in that screenshot--I added them all myself, rather easily, to a generic, 4E compatible fan-created character sheet.
I sincerely hope that the decision to include virtual minis with the DDI subscription happens. If it doesn't, myself and my brother (both DMs) will pass on DDI completely, and continue to use Fantasy Grounds II with 2D tokens.Incidentally, WotC can'
I just wanted to post an update. Your feedback has reached the decision makers and been discussed at length. I can't say when or if anything will change, but I do want to say that there has been some really compelling feedback presented on this issue and it is being given serious consideration.
I realize that may not be the exact answer everyone would like to hear right now, but I am very pleased that we've been able to bring the concerns of the community to the table and get them proper consideration.
I'll post know when I know more. Thanks to everyone for their constructive and compelling feedback.
I just wanted to post an update. Your feedback has reached the decision makers and been discussed at length. I can't say when or if anything will change, but I do want to say that there has been some really compelling feedback presented on this issue and it is being given serious consideration.
I realize that may not be the exact answer everyone would like to hear right now, but I am very pleased that we've been able to bring the concerns of the community to the table and get them proper consideration.
I'll post know when I know more. Thanks to everyone for their constructive and compelling feedback.
Thanks, -Mike
WOOHOO!
That is the least we can ask for, and many were quite seriously doubting that the views were even worthy of being heard from the "decision makers".
So this is a step in better communication between company and consumer even if nothing else really comes of it.
WOOHOO!That is the least we can ask for, and many were quite seriously doubting that the views were even worthy of being heard from the "decision makers".So this is a step in better communication between company and consumer even if nothing else real
IF I decided to pay for the DDI (which at 15$ a month is not going to happen) I would expect the Vminis to be free. There is no way I'd pay a Monthly fee of any kind AND then fork over extra for the good toys to use with the thing, especially if I can't clone the thing (If I have to pay for a Virtual Goblin Mini, it should allow me to put my players against 10, 20, 50, 100, 1000 or even 10000 goblins without having to pay another cent)
More importantly I think people who buy Real World Minis should be able to enter a code to give them a V-Mini of the ones they bought at no extra cost.
At least that way people are paying for a real object and the VMini is a side bonus. plus it might encourage some of them to start using the DDI.
IF I decided to pay for the DDI (which at 15$ a month is not going to happen) I would expect the Vminis to be free. There is no way I'd pay a Monthly fee of any kind AND then fork over extra for the good toys to use with the thing, especially if I c
From my perspective the answer to this question has become "I really don't care". I no longer expect a product to be honest. But just for the sake of argument, I would like to postulate that the reason they won't do a "code to unlock the item" strategy for ANYTHING they sell is that they have decided that they are not clever enough to keep hackers from cracking thier unlock algorithyms and stealing the store, as the saying goes.
People would be circulating hacked unlock keys within a week.
From my perspective the answer to this question has become "I really don't care". I no longer expect a product to be honest. But just for the sake of argument, I would like to postulate that the reason they won't do a "code to unlock the item" stra
That's not the case with the minis, however. If you have 5 kobold minis, and need a 6th kobold, you're out of luck. This is offset, however, by the fact that the minis of all the players connected to a session are made into one large "pool" for the DM's use.
Wow, are you kidding me? So if you have 5 kobolds and you need one more for an encounter, you have to purchase another kobold? What if none of my players have kobolds? It makes more sense to be able to duplicate a single mini just for a single game. It's not like I'm cheating them out of any money by duplicating them and giving them to other players or something.
Wow, are you kidding me? So if you have 5 kobolds and you need one more for an encounter, you have to purchase another kobold? What if none of my players have kobolds? It makes more sense to be able to duplicate a single mini just for a single game.
Wow, are you kidding me? So if you have 5 kobolds and you need one more for an encounter, you have to purchase another kobold? What if none of my players have kobolds? It makes more sense to be able to duplicate a single mini just for a single game. It's not like I'm cheating them out of any money by duplicating them and giving them to other players or something.
Hmm, while it has not been officially answered.
It appears me that the 3D tokens will not be clonable.
I also suspect that the free starter pack will include kobolds, goblins and a few other normal low level NPCs. This of course is me guessing.
So as you pose the question if you want 6 3d and only have a pool of five you will, it appears to me, need to purchase number six or you will have the option of using a 2D token for number six.
I would not expect any official answer on this issue until GenCon, perhaps later, however my guesses are not always correct.
Hmm, while it has not been officially answered.It appears me that the 3D tokens will not be clonable.I also suspect that the free starter pack will include kobolds, goblins and a few other normal low level NPCs. This of course is me guessing.So as yo
So as you pose the question if you want 6 3d and only have a pool of five you will, it appears to me, need to purchase number six or you will have the option of using a 2D token for number six.
If this is true, then it's worse than just having micro-transactions in the first place, and I fear this is going to be a recipe for disaster for the online subscription. And even if you fix it later, you'll never recover completely from having this kind of structure in place at launch.
And let's be realistic on the feedback to WotC. They do not care one iota what your opinion or mine is on micro-transactions. Not in the least. Their concern as a business is whether they can make more money going one direction or the other. Whoever is in charge of figuring that out may take the feedback into consideration, but in the end it comes down to the numbers and whether they think micro-transactions are more likely to cost subs or generate more revenue.
In terms of caring what all of us think as gamers, customers, and hobbyists, you can forget about it. I don't think that's part of the equation.
If this is true, then it's worse than just having micro-transactions in the first place, and I fear this is going to be a recipe for disaster for the online subscription. And even if you fix it later, you'll never recover completely from having this
I haven't bothered checking in on this thread in... forever. Mostly because I got my books and I've been playing sans-DDI... and I don't expect DDI to come out this year.
I will say though that this just gets sillier and sillier all the time, and I really DO hope Wizards is talking about this seriously. Because I think this can still be saved.
The tool suite they've concocted is probably solid, numbers-wise, but it looks "meh" visually. "Meh", to start with, isn't going to cut it in the 21st century. Not if you want to make a lot of money. On top of that, we get no true custom minis. Artists and fans are not allowed to make their own content beyond 2D tokens, which is something I could do for any other virtual tabletop.
Perhaps most offensive of all are the "5 packs". Plans like this make sense in the real world where if you only have five plastic minis, you're going to have to buy another pack or go without. Plastic minis have to be manufactured. Every single one. Digital minis are sculpted once and they're done. Essentially you're only buying the right to display more than five of the same illusory objects at one time. And it's perfectly within Wizard's right to sell you that right, true. With the economy being what it is, I know most of my friends won't be buying mini packs, and I certainly won't be taking all the burden on myself even though I'm the DM. I am of a generation that understands how computers work, and I won't rent three five packs of kobolds the same way I won't rent music from Apple anymore, or the same way I wouldn't pay a quarter every time I referenced a core rulebook.
Going forward with software, the most successful products will be the most adaptable. People talk about video games. Look at Spore. Not even out yet, it has probably made a bundle of money already off the Creature Creator tool which gives the user complete and total freedom to build whatever he or she wants. No monthly fee, no limits. Heck, I'd pay the fee if I had that sort of power at my fingertips. There are dozens of beholders on Sporepedia already, not to mention millions of other creatures. Imagine being able to have as many minis as you wanted, looking exactly how you wanted them to look. PCs, weapons, armors, treasures.
Neverwinter Nights is as close to digital D&D as we've seen, including Dungeon Mastering. Tons of community made content, no monthly fee, no limits. World of Warcraft? It's not successful because of its rigid code or its monthly fees. It's successful because Blizard has spent decades creating games that are addictive and rewarding to play, and because you can socialize with friends while you play. D&D can be like that. But if you're going to charge as much as the folks at Blizzard, you ought to be putting out something of comparable value and I just don't see that happening.
WoW is the only way you can play WoW. I can play D&D at home with some graph paper or on my computer screen with no visuals at all. I can buy another Virtual Table Top. The fact that Wizards promises you won't need DDI only serves to reduce their digital tool suite's value. And don't get me wrong; I don't want to need DDI. I only want to want it. As it stands right now the value is poor, and I'm happy with my pile of books.
I haven't bothered checking in on this thread in... forever. Mostly because I got my books and I've been playing sans-DDI... and I don't expect DDI to come out this year. I will say though that this just gets sillier and sillier all the time, and I
Wow. I'm not going to get all upset about it, but charging for v-minis at all isn't a very good idea, and charging per mini is ridiculous. As has been said before, there are other alternatives to DDIs game table that are free or have a one time cost. Some people already have no interest in DDI because of that. I expect *many* more will give up their interest in DDI if there are v-mini charges like that for the game table. It's just...wow.
Wow. I'm not going to get all upset about it, but charging for v-minis at all isn't a very good idea, and charging per mini is ridiculous. As has been said before, there are other alternatives to DDIs game table that are free or have a one time cos
It appears me that the 3D tokens will not be clonable.
I also suspect that the free starter pack will include kobolds, goblins and a few other normal low level NPCs. This of course is me guessing.
So as you pose the question if you want 6 3d and only have a pool of five you will, it appears to me, need to purchase number six or you will have the option of using a 2D token for number six.
I would not expect any official answer on this issue until GenCon, perhaps later, however my guesses are not always correct.
If this is in fact the case (i.e., users of the software are unable to direct it to render another instance of a v-mini mesh at a different location, or even some other arbitrary stupid limit, such as "only 5 instances of a given mesh can be rendered!") I personally pledge to reverse said software and break this arbitrary, artificial, and insipid limitation. Regardless of what dire action WotC may direct my way.
There is absolutely no reason for this sort of insanity beyond pure greed, plain and simple, by the suits at WotC. Given that I write software of similar nature to the game table sort of app (well, actual PC games that is) for a living, I can tell you all unequivocally that 1) not only is there no reason that they'd need to do this (that is to say, there is no "true" limitation in place here that prevents the software from rendering 1, 10, or a million instances of a given mesh at different positions, except the resources of the computer in question), 2) this is absolutely and wholly counter to the normal design of every 3D application ever written in the history of such applications (rendering pipelines are inherently designed to allow this to be done, and done with great efficiency, as well as being able to easily apply different scales/orientations to said instances of a given mesh).
WotC is walking a very dangerous path with the incredibly obtuse and customer-hostile ways in which they are handling the DDI initiative. They have already shown that they will do everything possible to proverbially screw us all out of every last penny they can, for no reason other than petty petty greed. I personally cannot, in good conscience, allow those that I feel are brothers and sisters in the enjoyment of our dying breed of game to suffer such absolutely disgusting injustice so that some jerks can make a quick buck because some of those said players may not know that these sort of limitations are 100% arbitrarily and insidiously geared towards ripping them off.
If WotC truly wants to make DDI something that their customers can be proud of participating in, this "5 render instances of a v-mini mesh" crap cannot be allowed to stand in any form(or ANY limit on how many instances, period, since any such limit would be entirely arbitrary and geared only by unbounded greed). So, I give you all my promise that I'll do what I can (assuming these apps ever see the light of day and aren't merely pointless vaporware, as they're increasingly seeming to be) to find the proverbial "allow me to render another damned instance" bit and give you all the means to flip it to your hearts' desire. I'd rather not have to reverse any software for these reasons, primarily because it's a pain in the bum, but if they insist on arbitrarily limiting the rendering of a single mesh to 5 instances, I will indeed be ethically* bound to so in order to stop WotC from ripping my fellow players off blatantly and unmercilessly.
* - The reason I say I would be ethically bound to do this is simple economics, really. If you understand how 3D rendering technology works, you'll know that rendering one instance of a mesh is 100% equivalent to rendering X instances, where X is a number bounded only by the power of the machine rendering said meshes. This means that cost of rendering another "copy" of the mesh at a different position is exactly $0. Not $1, or $0.50, or even $0.01 or $0.000000000001, but exactly $0. So the marginal cost of rendering another instance is zero, and thus charging for this capability means that someone at WotC explicitly told their programmers to add an artificial limitation into the software to cripple it from having this capability. The mesh has an up front cost for the artist to create it, but it costs exactly nothing to allow the user to render a virtually unlimited number of instances of the mesh once the data exists on the user's computer. The only reason to impose such a restriction is greed and pettiness.
Really though, it'd be much easier on everyone, especially WotC, if they wise up to the fact that this is both a horrible business decision, as well as an incredibly ethically dubious decision in general.
A small list of things that would easily allow DDI to take off:
1) Don't charge for V-Minis beyond the subscription price. Increase the subscription price some or drop the less desirable features to compensate (no one seems to give a crap about Dungeon and Dragon now that they've been converted to the much less pleasurable to read format, for instance).
2) Start a beta of the apps that are polished enough to be usable NOW in order to get those customers that are actually interested hooked early on, and to get proper feedback and testing of the software now instead of later. No software of this nature is ever going to be ready for prime time without a large scale user base test, and it is ridiculous after such incredible delays to expect your customers to pay to beta-test your software for you.
3) Allow custom/user created v-minis. I know WotC has stated that this is not in their plans, but it absolutely should be. The easiest way to demonstrate why is Neverwinter Nights, which is STILL played to this day for one simple reason: the community created assets. If Bioware had disallowed user created content in the fashion that WotC is proposing for DDI, it would quickly have fallen by the wayside, and would not nearly have been the huge success it has been. DDI is in danger of marginalizing itself in the exact way that NWN would have been had it not allowed such content. The community and the skills of community members that are willing to produce content at no cost to WotC are the single greatest asset to this type of software that can be exploited to great effect by WotC. Disallowing this simply to eke out a few ill gained bucks by charging based on an arbitrary software limitations is not only bad business sense, it's insulting to the very people that will make or break this product. Period.
4) Create a mechanism for promoting the most well made and polished of community creations of this fashion, possibly using a peer review system to give such creations prevalence. WotC should not bother to host this content themselves, in order to decrease any possible hosting costs to near-zero. There are many, many services that allow users to upload content for others to download, so there's no real reason for WotC to try hosting it themselves, which would quickly become expensive (imagine hosting all the stuff on NWVault without the resources of IGN). In this way, WotC would merely have to build the service for popularizing and pointing to the actual data resources.
5) Do NOT attempt to "control" all aspects of this service in draconian ways such as attempting to charge for "renting" how many instances of a mesh may be rendered inside the application. If technologies such as SecureROM cannot be "crack-proof" when their creators are in the sole business of draconian control methods, WotC is already doomed to fail in this respect, since it is not even a software company in the slightest, and is certainly not a DRM-software company. WotC has absolutely no chance at being successful at this. DRM serves only to alienate and anger customers that otherwise would be lucrative assets to sales/promotion etc. of the product. DDI WILL have customers willing to reverse the software in order to add their own creations. The only thing that WotC has control over in this respect is whether they want to alienate and irritate their paying customers or whether they will openly cooperate and encourage innovative usage of the product.
I've been working in the software industry for many years, and the games industry in specific for a couple now, so I think I might have a slightly better grasp of such things than some snobbish Business Major know-it-all-suit who merely wants to squeeze as many pennies from paying customers as possible before they're entirely alienated into never using their products again. The points I outline above will not cause WotC to make LESS money on DDI, but more. Much, much more. Orders of magnitude more. Hear that WotC suits? More money can be made by making your system open to user content than can ever be made by locking it down and alienating your customers with arbitrary software based restrictions. More, not less.
One of the key points of D&D in general is the ability of players to make their own content. By artificially limiting this ability in a product geared solely towards playing D&D, WotC will serve only to hamper their own sales and success of their product.
Yes, it's scary (for snobbish suit types that don't understand software, and games-related software in particular) when you release a software product that will be out of your control (in some respects) once it is in the wild, and your users have it. However, other software of this nature (NWN for instance) clearly shows that by and large, the lack of centralized control will serve only to enhance the product above and beyond what WotC could do themselves. That is, in fact, the very nature of community driven content, and D&D in particular. These proposed measures for ripping off your customers wholesale are akin to disallowing DMs to create modules, monsters, feats etc. for the game, and it is an obvious thing to any D&D player that this would do nothing but hamper D&D in an extremely detrimental manner.
Edit: Forgive my vehemence, but I cannot help myself because I want to use these products, and want to feel good about giving my money to WotC to be able to do so. However, I cannot do that when WotC is apparently doing everything in its power to undermine, insult and take advantage of their customers in fundamentally unethical ways (i.e., charging for the right to "rent" how many instances of a given mesh the software can render at once, which has no inherent restrictions, but only arbitrary ones driven solely by unabashed greed).
If this is in fact the case (i.e., users of the software are unable to direct it to render another instance of a v-mini mesh at a different location, or even some other arbitrary stupid limit, such as "only 5 instances of a given mesh can be rendered
no.
Huh? The tokens ARE included.
