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6 years ago ::
Sep 06, 2007 - 7:12PM
#1
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Date Joined:
Apr 30, 2004
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I hope not. I'm actually very excited about this tool, but it's little nickel and dime stuff like this that will make me not subscribe to D&DI. I want this tool to be good. I want to love it.
I read about the possibility of having to buy boosters of V-minis in a blog article. I don't like collectible games. I don't even buy ringtones. I do not want random collectible minis controlling what monsters we fight in D&D.
I don't mind paying for a product, but I don't like paying tiny incremental fees to get stuff. If the argument for selling the V-minis has to do with the cost of developing them, then allow the community to make them. I sure they will be more than happy to.
The same goes for dungeon tiles. Especially dungeon tiles. Since they're just scanned textures. No modeling involved.
Anyway, I wanted to end on a happy note since this post feels more negative than I intended. I am concerned about this issue, but in general, I'm pretty excited about the whole tool. Initially I was wary of D&DI, but now I think I'll even subscribe to that. So hopefully the final product will truly deliver!
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 7:49AM
#2
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Date Joined:
Aug 19, 2007
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I share your concerns, but am faced with the fact that some does have to create the original artwork even though now it's electronic and duplication costs are negligible.
When they charge for these, if they aren't covered by the monthly/annual fee, I hope they keep the costs appropriately low. I'll never pay per figure, but I might drop $10 for a pack of 100 dungeon tiles or v-figures if the quality is acceptable.
Ideally they'll release the tools/specs to the community so we can create this content or create the tools for creating this content.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 8:25AM
#3
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Date Joined:
Dec 11, 2002
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I'll be honest with you here. Even if I had a Windows machine that was supported by the DDI... I would never pay extra for v-mini. I would be more than happy to pay the monthly fee, but paying for a v-mini would be out of the question for me.
While it's important to point out that yes, someone has to design the mini. The main difference is that no one has to design anything beyond that. With the physical D&D Minis, the design process includes all of the following: Graphics, D&D Stats, Skirmish Stats and Costing, Typesetting, Production. I'm more than happy to pay for all that. The virtual mini only requires the graphics. That's it really because the Game Table doesn't adjudicate anything it doesn't need all the stats tied to anything. The DM is supposed to handle that.
In my opinion that should be rolled into the subscription. It's just not worth it to me to pay extra for that. This is doubly true for randomized v-minis.
Don't get me wrong about randomization. I'm a huge fan of D&D Minis. I buy boosters from my local store, and I've even bought cases in the past, but I'm paying for a lot of design and effort when I buy those.
--sam
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 9:22AM
#4
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Date Joined:
Aug 20, 2007
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If they do this, they should also make fan-made minis importable. Maybe the advantage of a WotC v-mini is that it can have it's pose changed, different colour applied, etc. and fan made v-minis are static.
I think this would satisfy everyone. :D
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 2:55PM
#5
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Date Joined:
Aug 27, 2007
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When I first saw the presentation of the game table I thought it was cool, and the question quickly came up about the V-mini's between our group. I had thought that when you purchased a Monster Manual and entered the e-code to "unlock extra stuff"; I figured that the V-mini's would have been included in the extra stuff. I, along with most others in my group were greatly disappointed by the fact that they are not included.
We had all thought that getting all the V-mini's would be a great incentive for buying the MMI, not to mention the MMII, MMII, and so forth. With the pirating of books the way it is these days we all figured that WotC would really try and entice people to buy the books by giving the V-mini’s with the purchase of the book.
We then began discussing that if we had to buy these V-mini's how should it work? Random V-booster packs is ridiculous. At least if we got to choose which mini's we wanted and then could only buy the mini's we would use that would be OK. Then if I buy a skeleton V-mini, I had better darn well be able to duplicate him on my Virtual game table as many times as I want, so if I wanted a room filled with 10 skeletons, I had better have only had to pay for that skeleton once. If they expect me to have to then buy 10 V-skeleton mini's to populate my dungeon, they are crazy.
I agree that it cost money to develop. But compare that cost to the actual mini's you buy. In both cases someone has to come up with the artwork. In both cases someone has to sculpt the figure, be it either on the computer or a block of clay. Now that is where the difference ends. With actual mini's there is a lot more work after that, like the molds, the material, the packaging, the shipping, the merchandising, etc. So a pack of actual minis cost what, $19.99 and you get 8 minis. These v-mini's had better be at least a 10th of the cost or less to be of comparative value. $1.99 for 10 mini's (of your choice) seems reasonable to me.
Also, with actual mini's you can put them up on your shelf, and they look really cool. They are useful outside of the game itself, and you have them for the rest of your life. V-Mini's are only on the computer...can't display them, can't trade them (well maybe), and are only useful on the Digital Game Table.
We are all waiting to see what they are going to charge for V-mini's, and what kind of features the V-mini's will have . If you are able to customize the V-mini's like they were doing in the character creator then that would make them a little better.
One of the things I hated most with real mini's was that during the game whoever was DMing our group was too lazy to dig through the mini box to find the correct mini, so they would jsut throw out the same purple and red guys that they had used for the last encounter, and the one before that, ect. I was really hoping that the virtual game table wouldn't be the same.....oh, well.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 9:56PM
#6
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Fine time posting.
How Excited I am about Game Table: I have been a mac user for 8 years now and I am saving money for a PC just to run Game Table. The prospect of playing D&D with my old High School friends who live in other states and countries, coupled with how pretty the gencon demo was = me stoked. Monthly fee? Fine. PC only? I'll do my best. Random V-minis? Um...your kidding right?
Here is the way it should work. You buy the Monster Manual, you get the code for ALL the monsters in the book. Each core Monster Manual can work that way and we can all play the game. To please the "Board" perhaps game table users can purchase exclusive minis (like named NPCs, Monsters with classes, different poses, etc.). So there is a generic skeleton that comes free with the book purchase, and then perhaps a skeletal orge that you have to pay extra for. If you really want that Skeletal Orge, you got to pay.
But if they expect us to buy random virtual merchandise then I think they expect a lot.
For The Greater Good.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 10:22PM
#7
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2005
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Here is the way it should work. You buy the Monster Manual, you get the code for ALL the monsters in the book. Each core Monster Manual can work that way and we can all play the game. To please the "Board" perhaps game table users can purchase exclusive minis (like named NPCs, Monsters with classes, different poses, etc.).
I really really hope they do this. I will not be buying randomized online minis, and am still doubtful about even buying the online gaming table. They have said you will be able to craft as many PC's as you want, and I can see myself as a DM creating many many diffrent ones, and just using them as a mini in duplicate if I don't get the ones in the book i bought and paid the x$ to activate virtually.
Exclusive minis can be things like the iconic charaters- if included-, or things like premade classed npcs. You get as many orc's as you want. But any orc warlord5/palidin7's on a unicorns are going to cost you.
If i pay for the MM to be virtually active, I would like to be able to pull minis directly out of it and onto the map VIA some form of drag and drop. I would also like the to be an option for any adventures i purchase vitually. Open to encounter 7b of the adventure, and push preload. It then has the dungeon tiles arranged as needed and the minis positioned correctly. I can modify as needed and then drop the PCs as approperiate.
I would also like some form of virtual world builder to be included, but thats another thread.
I'll just end with the note, that i would be very unhappy/unwilling to buy virtual minis at an extra cost to virtual activation of my books. It is one thing to pay for software, DND GAME TABLE, but another to pay for each individual part of the software in addition.
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 10:23PM
#8
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Date Joined:
Aug 23, 2007
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We then began discussing that if we had to buy these V-mini's how should it work? Random V-booster packs is ridiculous. At least if we got to choose which mini's we wanted and then could only buy the mini's we would use that would be OK. Then if I buy a skeleton V-mini, I had better darn well be able to duplicate him on my Virtual game table as many times as I want, so if I wanted a room filled with 10 skeletons, I had better have only had to pay for that skeleton once. If they expect me to have to then buy 10 V-skeleton mini's to populate my dungeon, they are crazy.
If they are on a "random booster" thought pattern, they have to be on a "buy 10 v-skeleton mini's to populate your dungeon" thought pattern as well. The two thoughts are exclusive to one another.
I agree that it cost money to develop. But compare that cost to the actual mini's you buy. In both cases someone has to come up with the artwork. In both cases someone has to sculpt the figure, be it either on the computer or a block of clay. Now that is where the difference ends. With actual mini's there is a lot more work after that, like the molds, the material, the packaging, the shipping, the merchandising, etc. So a pack of actual minis cost what, $19.99 and you get 8 minis. These v-mini's had better be at least a 10th of the cost or less to be of comparative value. $1.99 for 10 mini's (of your choice) seems reasonable to me.
The V-minis and Game table take no more, and likely less, work to create than most video games. How again do they get away with charging several dozen times that for this 'tool' that is not even supposed to be more than a convenience?
One of the things I hated most with real mini's was that during the game whoever was DMing our group was too lazy to dig through the mini box to find the correct mini, so they would jsut throw out the same purple and red guys that they had used for the last encounter, and the one before that, ect. I was really hoping that the virtual game table wouldn't be the same.....oh, well.
And wizards response: Yes, it's just like your kitchen table, just like we promised.
They have said you will be able to craft as many PC's as you want, and I can see myself as a DM creating many many diffrent ones, and just using them as a mini in duplicate if I don't get the ones in the book i bought and paid the x$ to activate virtually.
They said the likely number of savable characters is *drum roll* 10.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 10:28PM
#9
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Date Joined:
Aug 16, 2007
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I hate to say it, but it sounds like the MM won't be worth the money when compared to the other books. When we buy sourcebooks, Insider subscribers will have the rules from that book unlocked for their account. Classes, spells, feats, and everything else available for easy access and use online. The monster manual is focused on one thing: monsters, as it should be. But whereas other books add to the database we have access to and increase our ability to utilize the internet tools offered with Insider, the monster manual really adds nothing of value. Players don't need access to the stat blocks of creatures they encounter, and I'll probably have my physical book open on my desk whenever I run a game via the Game Table. Having the stat blocks available digitally will help with adventure creation, but not likely much else. The V-Minis are a vital web features of the MM. Forcing us to purchase them separately is equivalent to forcing us to buy the MM more than once if we want to utilize it to the same extent as other sourcebooks.
They said the likely number of savable characters is *drum roll* 10.
They did mention they would look into the possibility of allowing us to save additional characters on our hard drives, though.
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6 years ago ::
Sep 07, 2007 - 10:39PM
#10
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Date Joined:
Nov 30, 2005
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They said the likely number of savable characters is *drum roll* 10.
Well crap, last i had heard they were stillup in the air as to the number leaning to limitless.
Can you link me to where you found the number 10? Id like to be able to stay up to date with that in case they change the number to higher. WHich i hope they do, as when i play i like to save my sheets from campaign to campaign, and i think it would be cool save all my virtual ones as well. Especially if the virtual ones come with a visual representation. -at least i can save them to harddrive-
I agree without this the MM virtual content will not be worth the money.
5e comments and thoughts all in one place. Check it out to provide feedback, mock, or steal ideas.
http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/28835423/Krusks_5e_Design_Goals?sdb=1
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