It's been said several times, in several places that the packs will absolutely NOT be randomized. When you buy v-minis you'll know what you're getting.
I am still wondering if V-minis will actually be sold in relation to the gaming table, or if a seperate V-mini game is being made (like the Magic Online game) that they would be sold for and the graphics for them be available ad hoc in the Gaming Table (since it doesn't use the rules in the fist place)
If you have to by any V-minis for the gaming table, then it will be largely ignored by most as a lost cause.
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
I am still wondering if V-minis will actually be sold in relation to the gaming table, or if a seperate V-mini game is being made (like the Magic Online game) that they would be sold for and the graphics for them be available ad hoc in the Gaming Table (since it doesn't use the rules in the fist place)
If you have to by any V-minis for the gaming table, then it will be largely ignored by most as a lost cause.
Unfortunately, the phrasing in the presentation which revealed the pricing at D&D Experience wasn't promising regarding that. They mentioned that early subscribers would be getting "free" or "bonus" sets of miniatures. Now that could means V-minis that won't be available elsewhere-- or it could mean they're essentially giving you a starter set.
I wouldn't mind if they had exclusive miniatures that you had to buy (maybe NPC versions of the monsters-- for instance a troll with sword and armor, where you get the standard version free), but not having regular influxes of new miniatures as part of the table is going to reduce its worth in my eyes considerably.
Kit Build - A class build that is self sustaining and has mechanical differences than the normal scale. Started in Essentials. Most are call their own terms, though the Base Class should be said in front of their own terms (Like Assassin/Executioner)
Power Points - A mechanic that was wedged into the PHB3 classes (with the exception of the Monk) from the previous editions. This time, they are used to augment At Wills to be Encounters, thus eliminating the need to choose powers past 4th level.
Mage Builds - Kit builds that are schools of magic for the Wizard. A call back to the previous editions powering up of the wizard. (Wizard/Necromancer, for example) Unlike the previous kit builds, Wizards simply lose their Scribe Rituals feature and most likely still can choose powers from any build, unlike the Kit Builds.
Parcel System - A treasure distribution method that keeps adventurers poor while forcing/advising the DM to get wish lists from players. The version 2.0 rolls for treasure instead of making a list, and is incomplete because of the lack of clarity about magic item rarity.
They will Essentialize the Essentials classes, otherwise known as Essentials2.
The new sub-sub-classes will be:
* Magician. A subsubclass of Mage, the magician has two implements, wand and hat, one familiar (rabbit) and series of basic tricks. * Crook. A subsubclass of Thief, the Crook can only use a shiv, which allows him to use his only power... Shank. * Angry Vicar, a subsubclass of warpriest, the angry vicar has two attacks -- Shame and Lecture. * Hitter. A subsubclass of Slayer, the Hitter hits things. * Gatherer. A subsubclass of Hunter, it doesn't actually do anything, but pick up the stuff other players might leave behind.
Future Essentials2 classes include the Security Guard (Sentinel2), the Hexknife (Hexblade2), the Webelos (Scout2), the Gallant (Cavalier2) and the Goofus (Knight2).
These will all be detailed in the box set called Heroes of the Futile Marketing.
(Though what they should really release tomorrow is the Essentialized version of the Witchalok!)
I am still wondering if V-minis will actually be sold in relation to the gaming table, or if a seperate V-mini game is being made (like the Magic Online game) that they would be sold for and the graphics for them be available ad hoc in the Gaming Table (since it doesn't use the rules in the fist place)
If you have to by any V-minis for the gaming table, then it will be largely ignored by most as a lost cause.
Aside from your speculation, I've heard nothing anywhere, at any time about a V-minis game (D&D Miniatures Online?).
However, I am highly dissapointed to have asked as the DDI demo about whether minis can be cloned or not. Sadly, the answer appears to be "not".
This may only apply to special "semi-unique" minis (aka Dragons, Beholders, etc) but its still dissapointing.
The small concession that makes it a little better is that the resources of all connected players are pooled together, and the GM can use them.
IE - If I have 3 kobolds, and you connect to my game table, and you have 3 more, I can then toss 6 (3D) kobolds at you.
If you and another GM often play together, that can help defray the costs of all the virtual "bits" you want. And you can still use any image to make a flat token - and then clone that token.
But I must concede you were right about not cloning 3D minis. I'm highly dissapointed by that factor.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide
having to pay more than the 9.95 ransom is unforgivable. Wizards should know better than this.
Well then don't buy it. The fact is that most DnD players don't buy most of the books/minis/accessories that come out and yet somehow WOTC manages to make a living. It is almost like their business model isn't dependant on only making things that everyone will buy.
If they didn't have v-minis that cost extra it isn't like those minis would be passed on to subscribers. Subscribers would still only get what comes with the subscription. It isn't like not selling v-minis will leave them with an inventory of electrons that need to be unloaded. It just means that they won't have the resources to design extra minis.
Basically, what business is it of yours if I buy extra graphics that aren't part of the base product when it has no impact on what you get with that base product?
Basically, what business is it of yours if I buy extra graphics that aren't part of the base product when it has no impact on what you get with that base product?
I think the argument here is that without certain aspects (i.e. the 3d miniatures), the value of the base product is greatly diminished. To the point where it's going to reduce the number purchasing it. I don't think anyone is saying they care if you buy the miniatures, they're saying that without them being bundled with the product they are far less interested in it in the first place.
It still comes down to seeing the final product, but I know tokens are going to be a lot less attractive to me than miniatures. And the 10 dollars a month is already more than I was hoping for (though not necessarily more than I was expecting.) Then again, outside of the game table aspect, the full rules access through the character building tools regardless of purchase may offset that entirely.
I think the argument here is that without certain aspects (i.e. the 3d miniatures), the value of the base product is greatly diminished. To the point where it's going to reduce the number purchasing it. I don't think anyone is saying they care if you buy the miniatures, they're saying that without them being bundled with the product they are far less interested in it in the first place.
It still comes down to seeing the final product, but I know tokens are going to be a lot less attractive to me than miniatures. And the 10 dollars a month is already more than I was hoping for (though not necessarily more than I was expecting.) Then again, outside of the game table aspect, the full rules access through the character building tools regardless of purchase may offset that entirely.
I've played with a few of the other VTT's and none of them I've used have supported 3D minis.
It hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of the game in the least.
I suppose one could argue that since Wizards is creating a 3D table that the 3D tiles and minis are more important, but I think it will depend more on if you get *any* 3D minis to start or not.
If I get a few minis to start, and have to add-in the ones I want later, that's not a big deal to me.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide
I've played with a few of the other VTT's and none of them I've used have supported 3D minis.
It hasn't detracted from my enjoyment of the game in the least
To be fair, those other VTT are free to use, WotC wants you to pay a subscription fee to use thiers. Shouldnt the VTT that costs 10 bucks a month have 3-d representatons bundled into that cost, if the ones that are free can manage to pull off a token based system at no cost to the user?
The v-minis are the only feature of DDI that cant be had elsewhere for free (albeit maybe not as official material, but heck, this a game about using your imagination, and if WotC wants me to use tokens and pretend with thier paid subscription offering, I can use that same imagination to make free versions of thier other services work). The fact that the only thing that the service offers thats truely unique isnt included in the asking price makes it shine poorly in the light of its other competitors, both in the subscription based digital content arena, and in the free VTT arena.
In short no other subscription based digital content provider that is in business currently is asking a subscription fee and an aditional fee for the graphics to use thier offerings. Those that have little graphics or cant afford to have them, are free services. Which is exactly what should be charged for DDI VTT if you dont get the graphics.
To be fair, those other VTT are free to use, WotC wants you to pay a subscription fee to use thiers. Shouldnt the VTT that costs 10 bucks a month have 3-d representatons bundled into that cost, if the ones that are free can manage to pull off a token based system at no cost to the user?
Actually, the one I've used primarily is Fantasy Grounds, which has an up-front purchase cost (I've had no real success in getting anywhere with OpenRPG)
Not that this invalidates most of your points.
In short no other subscription based digital content provider that is in business currently is asking a subscription fee and an aditional fee for the graphics to use thier offerings. Those that have little graphics or cant afford to have them, are free services. Which is exactly what should be charged for DDI VTT if you dont get the graphics.
Be good.
Well, it's a matter of splitting hairs.
Just like the other "free" packages (free to play at least, regardless of ownership/licensing costs) allow one to use flat 2D tokens that they create, you'll be able to use 2D tokens for free in the Game Table.
You can draw your own maps on the fly, or use imported graphics (like exporting a map from say, Dunjinni in JPG format), just like the other tables. So, no, you don't *have* to pay for "the graphics" as you so often argue. You have the *option* of doing so. Fantasy Grounds, for example, also has had packs of graphics available for sale for it's software if, like me, you have no artistic talent.
So, I'd say that's a level playing field.
The subscription fee is a different matter. WotC hopes (and to a degree I agree) that they can offer a little more than the other VTTs. Your DDI subscription gets you access to a suite of tools (not just a Game Table) so its hard to justify it as *just* a tabletop.
If ALL you want/need is the tabletop, yes, you'd be better off using other services.
If you're interested in the Rules Database, Character Generator, DM Tools, and the Magazines. . . the overall bundle is going to be worth it (probably - won't know for sure until it's out and we can try it).
At the end of the day, the value of the package will be up to each individual to determine.
I fully intend to give the 10-day trial they said we'd all be getting at launch a full run for its money.
WolfStar76 Community Advocate (SVCL) for D&D Organized Play, Avalon Hill, and the DCI/WPN LFR Community Manager DDi Guide
(BTW your one of my favorite posters on this board, and allthough we have slightly differing views. I really enjoy debating them with you)
I really like Fantasy Grounds, and I would have no problem BUYING up front a license to use DDI VTT if it allowed me the same freedom for adding content, and sharing it with the community.
I really want to use and like DDI, a VTT that allows for sanctioned play is a fairly hot concept.With official imagery included in an episodic manner that justifies the subscription cost it could surely be worth it.
Im my critiques of the DDI offering I tend not to put that strong of a value on the index, the character sheets, or the index, because I am used to using such services for free. It may be the killer part of DDI. But it just looks like information, and in most cases if you look, you can find information for free. But I will be sure and take the 10 day trial and take a hard look at the non VTT aspects of the DDI offering. I sincerly hope that I am wrong about those aspects (I really do).
While I may seem overly critical about the pricing mechanic sometimes. I assure its because I want the product to succeed. Not because I think the product is bad or that I take glee in the fact that in its current state I think it will be a failure.
I love dungeons & dragons. I always have. As a direct result of the game I have made lifelong friends and been entertained for countless hours. I have always bought D&D products, and I am looking forward greatly to 4e.
I think a VTT that is officially supported and is used to design all RPGA content is long overdue. But I just cant get behind the microtransactions. If it were only microtransactions I could. But its a subcription service.
Id like to offer you another take on the rules database. So if you will just bear with me for second (or ten) and allow me to set up a scenario for you.
DDIs VTT is a video game is in most basic form. Albeit it is a video game in which the players control the mechanical portion of the play session, it is a video game none the less. The rules database has to exsist or you couldnt really use the VTT with all of the content easily. The mechanics from the database directly effect play.
Other online video games have rules databases as well, the difference being that the client program and the server that run the video game handle the mechanical portions of play, that handle the calculations. But the rules are there none the less. You cant play a game on the internet without some form of mechanical resolution.
The difference in DDI's service and others is that instead of a server crunching the database and resolving mechanical conflicts, the actual subscribers do it. Im cool with that. Its a helluva lot cheaper to develop than having a server resolve the issues. And if I didnt get to poke my nose in books I wouldnt feel like im playing D&D anyways.
But a dictionary of commands and rulesets is neccessary for any online (or offline for that matter) game. Any video game offering has it. I dont really feel its all that unique of a concept when broght to bear against like services. Do you think Everquest or WoW could be run without a very comprehensive database and ruleset to handles the mechanical interactions of its players with the game world? Of course not. So along those lines I suggest that the DDI rules databse is not a new feature that DDI is using the add value to their offering. But rather a neccessity for the service to even be playable at all.
It is one of the things that validates charging a subscription fee. It is not something that WotC is offering above and beyond thier competitors in the subscription based digital fantasy genre. You just happen to be able to browse the DDI ruleset, which I will admit adds value. But on that same coin I think it also devalues the printed material.
Why on earth would I even buy a single 4e book beyond the PHB if every single crunchy bit can be had for my gamng group for 10 bucks a month? DDI also devalues the printed product line by removing thier web based free content.
I want DDI to knock one out of the park. A solid and sanctioned service of this nature is 10 years overdue. But I cant help but feel like im being nickle and dimed to death to use it. My group pays a hefty premium to WotC annually for source material. We allow the use of online indexes in our group but require that the player own a copy of the printed material to actually use the features in game. I estimate that my group collectively owns three copies of every single 3.0-3.5 book. Not to mention the costs of battlemats, the gaming table we made (which is one of our proudest achievments. you wouldnt believe that chaos that ensues when you take a horde of geeks and turn them into carpenters for several weekends), and I have no idea how many D&D branded miniatures our group owns collectively. But I know at least two of our members have comeplete sets, and most of us have at least a few hundred of our very own.
Unless 4e is full of suck (which I dont think it will be) my group will invest in it, probably just as strongly as they did in 3e. Unless WotC quits making miniatures, my group will invest in those on a continued basis as well.
Now WotC wants to sell us a new product which is a combintion of stuff we can get for free and a couple of really unique aspects. They want us to pay for it monthly on top of our already ongoing investments in the hobby. And then they want to ping us to death on top of that for the content that would make the offering a viable form of subscription based digital entertainment.
My budget cannot afford another subscription as it is. I would have to drop either WoW or FFXI to be able to afford to add DDI to my leisure budget. The problem is both Blizzard and Squareenix give me so much more bang for my subscription buck. I get the art for the games with both of those subscriptions. I get the rules mechanics for both of those games with my subscriptions. I get episodic content added to my experience from both of those companies. Both of those companies have websites full of information that comes at no additional costs.
Wether or not WotC wants to acknowledge it, these types of services are just a few of the many they are in competition with for users. Even though the two experiences vary vasty in nature, WotC is bringing forth a service that sits very comfortably right in the middle of the price point for current MMO offerings as far as its costs, yet they arent bringing to the table the same quality of offering.
D&D is a strong brandname. ill give you that. But just because it has the D&D logo on it and it comes from the folks who make D&D doesnt make it fair for D&D to charge the same as other offerings in thier market and offer less, and then force the userbase to buy graphical components of the video game piece by piece and charge them extra for each one. I have heard rumblings (I havent been able to verify them yet but ill take a good look tommorrow when I sit down for coffee in the morning) that DDI VTT isnt even going to support cloning of content you have paid for. Meaning that if I want to put 6 kobolds up against my group I have to buy the kobold art 6 times to do it. Thats very unsavory, to say the least.
Before my posts are taken in a very negative context, I would like to say again, that it is my fondest wish that this offering succeeds and enables WotC to keep making more source for the game I have played most of my life and have grown to love. In fact, I am only posting them in the hopes that someone who has the power to change this disaster of a pricing scheme will take the time to read it and take a look at the competition and what they are charging and offering for that price before launching a product that could very well stand on its own and be a success in this market, that may ultimately have less impact or fail outright due to obtuse ideas about what to charge for the service and its components. Ick.
Be good.
PS. if you are looking for another player for your current VTT group I own a copy of fantasy grounds that just collecting dust as my current VTT kids (from way back in highschool) prefer OpenRPG.
