PyroMancer2k is saying that the rogue only need 1 feat to get that same AC boost.
That's right and that's the thing I think people keep over looking when they say the monk can simply goto hide like a rogue.
Also the lack of some sort of constant buff like the artful dodger rogue has for OA the monk's mobility is extremely limited. Sure the monk can still move like other classes but there is NO benefit and his mobility is tied exclusively to the full discipline powers. Which means he has to use them to get sort of boost to mobility.
The monk should have some form of class feature that helps his movement and is always there. Because other classes have their "unique" feature tied into their classes features. As it stands any class can multiclass into the monk and get all of it's movement bonuses.
Right now the Rogue (AD) that MC into a monk looks a lot more resilient and mobile then the full class monk. And that's kind the point. A PURE monk should be very mobile and more so then someone who MC into it and takes a bunch of FD powers.
The monk has NO real cool or unique class features right now.
1) The + to unarmed AC is okie to drop if you MC in since you'll be in better armor.
2) The + to Fort is kinda nice but not that important in the long haul as many other classes can do without as well.
3) Unarmed strike is simply a much more limited long sword nothing to unique there.
4) The monk weapons restriction only serves to make the class one of the most limited out there in terms of weapon choices. Even the rogue is allowed a whole weapon type group.
5) Lastly the flurry is horrible striker damage. Sure the shift is nice but it's not nice enough to make up for the major hit in damage. Since you can't add damage from the implement since it's not a "roll" your stuck with horrible damage.
Honestly I thought the TWF Ranger pseudo monk class they released when 4e first came out is a better monk. The WTF Ranger has a TON of powers that you get FREE movement which he can often use to attack one target them move to another and attack a second target. This attack and move as part of a single standard action shows up in several of the TWF Ranger's powers again making yet another class who has better mobility options then the monk. And the original suggestion for Ranger as monk gave him +3 which I think is another reason everyone was surprised by and complains about the +2.
Also if you use standard ranger he gets hide to start with so he's in an even better armor position and he has every 1H weapon open to him.
I think part of the problem is the whole FD thing has limited their view to must not have movement effects in the attack and only put them in the Move part. So now the monk is paying for cool movement other classes like the Ranger were getting for free. Heck I think MC into Ranger for some of those move/attack powers that only require standard action would be great for the monk.
The FD are an interesting idea but I think they are cutting back the attack part of power to compensate for the new Move power. And the class it self lacks really unique features that separate it from the other classes. It just has a few + to various things and unique striker damage which is sub-par.
The mechanics on the monk are very bland and uninspiring. The FD don't count as they are powers which anyone can MC in and take. So the real question is if someone MC into a monk what are they gonna get? Or what would they wanna get? At most probably the flurry.
And you may ask well why would another class bother MC into the monk and not just take the monk? Well the reason is to get a few of those FD powers. So you MC into monk and grab Five Storms. Well you can use it's Shift 2 every turn and still use another attack power!! This is something the monk can't even do effectively because he is limited due to the fact that nearly all his powers are FD.
He can't use the move from one At-Will then make an attack with another At-Will. This is something that every other class can do if the multi-class into a monk. Or they could use the At-will FD's move and follow up with an Encounter power. Something the monk has to spend an AP to do!!
That's right and that's the thing I think people keep over looking when they say the monk can simply goto hide like a rogue.
then they can take the staff fighting feat, or train to use a parrying dagger and get their +1 to AC.
Also the lack of some sort of constant buff like the artful dodger rogue has for OA the monk's mobility is extremely limited. Sure the monk can still move like other classes but there is NO benefit and his mobility is tied exclusively to the full discipline powers. Which means he has to use them to get sort of boost to mobility.
The monk needs no constant buff because he isn't trying to flank every turn. Also, the monk needs no permanent bonus to AC because his powers make it very difficult for a monster to sucessfully OA him or dicourage monsters from OA'ing in hte first place; here's the proof proof the monk can avoid OA'sShow
Dancing Cobra (you deal extra damage if OA'd), Dragon's Tail (prone is a -2 penalty to att. rolls, sapping places with ally means you can move without provoking an OA, swapping with the prone enemy means you can place him within a defender's mark or in a dangerous position where he won't take an OA from OAing you), Crane's Wing (Push enemy away from OA range), Five Storms (Shift 2), Drunken Monkey (Att: slide enemy out of AO range, Move: + Wis mod vs OA's), Open the Gates of Battle (Pick enemy, that enemy cant OA you, period), Masterful Spiral (Stance: you can now attack enemies with some attacks from two squares away), Leaf on the Wind (turn forced movement into shifts so you can move towards your next target without provoking OA's), Dance of Swords (Discourage OA's becuase if enemy misses OA against you you gain CA), Twin Thunders (Choose adjacent enemy, he cant OA because of movement), 100 leaves (Push enemy 2 squares out of OA reach), Fist of 100 Strikes (Att: After damage you can shift, Move: Shift 2 squares), Strike the Avalanche (Att: Slide one enemy away from OA range, Knock him and others prone so they have -2 to attack; Move: Don't provoke OA's from prone enemies), Twilight Touch (Blinds enemies; -5 to attack), Spider Technique (At-Will Spider Climb Speed, so you can travel safer roads), Dance of the Stinging Hornet (Att: vs an enemy of you size or smaller, gain cover; vs. a larger enemy you gain cover and when you move when he moves without provoking OA's), Overpowering Strike (Att: Enemy takes penalty to attack rolls, Move: Shift 3), Way of the WInter Wind (Stance: Immediate Reaction Shift 2 when hit by attack, so you can move away from OA range), Ring the Golden Bell (Jump without provoking OA's, Dazed enemies can't OA), Steps of Grasping Fire (Discourages people from OA'ing you by dealing damage if they do), Three Winds Kick (Att: You can attack up two 3 times, shifting 2 spaces after each attack), Fist of Golden Fire (Blinds enemies), Hungry Ghost (Move: Phasing so you can move through safer routes, insubstantial so you only take half damage), Wandering Comet Strike (Attack and teleport up to 3 times), Celestial Drunken Boxer (Shift 4), Tap the life well (Att: Damage, Teleport and Daze; move: Teleport), Mist of the Storm (Stance: Insubtantial and Phasing), Divine Sun (Teleport), Rising Sun Technique (Tilll end of encounter crits blind), Tormented Spirit (Teleport, enemy grants CA), Vengeful Ghost (Stuns, Dazes)
The monk should have some form of class feature that helps his movement and is always there. Because other classes have their "unique" feature tied into their classes features. As it stands any class can multiclass into the monk and get all of it's movement bonuses.
Just like anybody can MC ranger and get multi attacks, or Wizard to get control powers, or Cleric to get healing, or Sorcerer to get Blasts... your point is? The only classes that has a clas feature that helps movement is.... a subclass of Rogue who has a +1 vs OA's? And one barbarian build who can charge once per encounter? Well, there is a subclass of druid that gets a +1 to speed... Sorry if I don't understand your concern, the monk can get much better than any of those with his powers.
Right now the Rogue (AD) that MC into a monk looks a lot more resilient and mobile then the full class monk. And that's kind the point. A PURE monk should be very mobile and more so then someone who MC into it and takes a bunch of FD powers.
A PURE monk is far more mobile because he has far much more FD movement options to choose from than a person who takes an encounter or daily power or even Paragon multiclasses into one. And it looks more resilient only if it takes a feat, then the monk can take one feat and have the same AC, and better NAD's and more ways to avoid OA's... so the monk looks better off after all; no?
The monk has NO real cool or unique class features right now.
1) The + to unarmed AC is okie to drop if you MC in since you'll be in better armor.
Except you don't get armor proficiencies by MC... and if you end up Hybrid-classing you get the worst of the two. You aren't making much sense here.
2) The + to Fort is kinda nice but not that important in the long haul as many other classes can do without as well.
Except that it means you will be harder to hit on all defenses instead of having one glaring weak spot the DM is gonna exploit in his encounters. So that means, less damage, less status effects.
3) Unarmed strike is simply a much more limited long sword nothing to unique there.
Except it's thematic, but yeah, let's forget the Monk's most thematic ability, the ability to kill with your bare hands; that would be a excellent design idea.
4) The monk weapons restriction only serves to make the class one of the most limited out there in terms of weapon choices. Even the rogue is allowed a whole weapon type group.
Except you have to take a feat to be able to use a weapon within that 'whole weapon group' not to mention that you have to take the feat every time you want a new weapon from that weapon group.... Not to mention that you ate ignoring the fact that the designers have said they would include feats so that you can use other weapons and get some nice bonus with them.
5) Lastly the flurry is horrible striker damage. Sure the shift is nice but it's not nice enough to make up for the major hit in damage. Since you can't add damage from the implement since it's not a "roll" your stuck with horrible damage.
I agree with you there, but it's more a problem with how the rules function than the monk, my hopes are that fixed damage does benefit from enhancement bonuses by the time PHB 3 comes out.
Honestly I thought the TWF Ranger pseudo monk class they released when 4e first came out is a better monk. The WTF Ranger has a TON of powers that you get FREE movement which he can often use to attack one target them move to another and attack a second target. This attack and move as part of a single standard action shows up in several of the TWF Ranger's powers again making yet another class who has better mobility options then the monk. And the original suggestion for Ranger as monk gave him +3 which I think is another reason everyone was surprised by and complains about the +2.
First of all; only 19 out of 135 Attack powers give the ranger free movement, to claim that 14% is, by any stretch of the imagination a TON, requires some kind of mental acrobatics that I just can't perform. Also... the Monk gets +3 with his unarmed strike, just like the link you provided gives the 'ranger-monk'. So now you are just making up stuff by claiming it only has a +2 to attack with unarmed strike. Not only that you are also imagining people are complaining about that imaginary +2 Unarmed strike.
Also if you use standard ranger he gets hide to start with so he's in an even better armor position and he has every 1H weapon open to him.
A TWF Ranger will begin with lower or equal defenses than a monk in cloth so I don't know what you mean with 'a better armor position' if a TWF ranger is likely to begin with 16 AC sacrificing wisdom and becoming MAD (more so when trying to get chaimail) while the monk can easily begin with 17. And the ranger has every 1h weapon open to him? Not completely true, he can use military or simple weapons, he still needs a feat to use superior weapons. But the more important question is; who cares if the ranger begins with more weapon choices? Being able two hit with warhammers isn't what a monk is supposed to look like. It would appear to me that you would rather have the monk be an exact copy of the ranger, rather than a faithful representation of its archetype.
I think part of the problem is the whole FD thing has limited their view to must not have movement effects in the attack and only put them in the Move part. So now the monk is paying for cool movement other classes like the Ranger were getting for free. Heck I think MC into Ranger for some of those move/attack powers that only require standard action would be great for the monk.
Hmmm.... let's see;
Powers that have movement as part of a standard action: Whirling Mantis Step, Fist of 100 Strikes, Ring the Golden Bell, Three Winds Kick, Wandering Comet Strike, Tap the Life Well, Rising Sun Technique = 6 attacks
Full Disciplines that let you use the Attack Technique while using the movement technique: Dance of the Stinging Hornet =1
Attacks that give you free movement till end of encounter: Way of the Winter Wind = 1
FD movement that deals damage: Steps of Grasping Fire = 1
Total: 9, Percentage: 25% compared to the Rangers 14% the monk is more mobile.
So, do you really think a monk would benefit from MC to take some of that 14% so he can shift after attacking, which is basically all of that 14% does; it lets you shift. The monk can laugh at the Ranger's supposed mobility.
The FD are an interesting idea but I think they are cutting back the attack part of power to compensate for the new Move power. And the class it self lacks really unique features that separate it from the other classes. It just has a few + to various things and unique striker damage which is sub-par.
The monk has the same power progression as other strikers. So I don't understand where this whole lower damage argument comes from; not to mention the control effects, he's average in the damage department. And what does the Ranger have? The ability to use two weapons or shoot from up close? Wow, so amazing; NOBODY else can do that, except for the fighter or Warlock....
Besides is not as if this is the first class who is most defined by its powers than it's features, look at the TWR and multi-attacks, the Wizard who delivers his control no through features but powers, the barbarian rages, the Warden's Forms to a lesser extent. Ad you seem to be ignoring his most important and defining feature; his unarmed strike is thematically and mechanically unique amongst the other classes.
The mechanics on the monk are very bland and uninspiring. The FD don't count as they are powers which anyone can MC in and take. So the real question is if someone MC into a monk what are they gonna get? Or what would they wanna get? At most probably the flurry.
The FD is the mechanic of the monk, just like a wizards powers are it's most defining attribute. Also, anybody can go and take the Ranger's Multiattacks, or the Barbarian's Rages. I mean complaining that someone can get another's powers is beyond stupid. And yes, they would want the FoB, just like you can get Sneak Attack with MC rogue, or HQ with MC Ranger or OOE with MC Avenger. When someone multiclasses into a striker they want the striker feature, nothing else.
And you may ask well why would another class bother MC into the monk and not just take the monk? Well the reason is to get a few of those FD powers. So you MC into monk and grab Five Storms. Well you can use it's Shift 2 every turn and still use another attack power!! This is something the monk can't even do effectively because he is limited due to the fact that nearly all his powers are FD.
Well, if someonw wants to use Five Storms so he can shift every turn he would need to Paragon multiclass, that would mean spend four feats and the chance to get a Paragon Path. So no need for your alarm that someone "can use it's Shift 2 every turn and still use another attack power!!" (nice usage of the double exclamation mark, by the way). And why can't the monk do that effectively; if he wanted to the monk could either: Use the movement part of an at will and use a daily power or, this is going to amaze you, multiclass to get non FD powers. And this brings me to my next point and yours as well.
He can't use the move from one At-Will then make an attack with another At-Will. This is something that every other class can do if the multi-class into a monk. Or they could use the At-will FD's move and follow up with an Encounter power. Something the monk has to spend an AP to do!!
You are forgetting that just as another class has to not only multiclass but Paragon Multiclass (something you seem to have forgotten) to use the movement portion of a FD to then use any other attack, the monk can MC or PMC into other classes to do the same thing.
So to recap; You are wrong that: [LIST=1]
The Monk has to spend two feats to get +1 to AC, while the Rogue only needs to spend one.
The Monk needs +1 to AC vs OA's in order to move safely
That the Monk's Mobility is tied only to it's FD powers
That the Monk needs some sort of mobility class feature
That a rogue MC monk can be more resilient and more mobile than a Monk
That the monk has no thematic class feature nor useful ones.
That a TWF Ranger has more free movement than a monk and that a Monk would be more mobile by MC ranger and using some of those attacks.
That the Monk's Unarmed Strike has a +2 Prof. Bonus
That a TWF Ranger will begin with better defenses
That a monk has less free movement or attacks that allow a move than a Ranger
That a monk would benefit by trading his FD powers for Ranger powers than do little less than shift as opposed to the monks Superhuman mobility options
That the monk is weak when it has the same damage progrssion as other strikers
Implying that it is the only class missing defining class features while ignoring the Ranger, Wizard, and other classes that are defined more by their attacks than their features.
Claiming that someone can multiclass to use FD powers at-will when it would require PMC.
Saying that a MC character can use the movement technique of a FD and then a Standard Action to use another power, when the monk can do the same thing with its dailies or by PMC himself.
then they can take the staff fighting feat, or train to use a parrying dagger and get their +1 to AC.
Yea so can the rogue. I never said they couldn't increase AC since there is also TWF-Defense for +1 AC. All the ways a monk has currently to increase AC the rogue can do as well. Stats/TWF/DefWpns.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
The monk needs no constant buff because he isn't trying to flank every turn. Also, the monk needs no permanent bonus to AC because his powers make it very difficult for a monster to sucessfully OA him or dicourage monsters from OA'ing in hte first place; here's the proof proof the monk can avoid OA'sShow
Dancing Cobra (you deal extra damage if OA'd), Dragon's Tail (prone is a -2 penalty to att. rolls, sapping places with ally means you can move without provoking an OA, swapping with the prone enemy means you can place him within a defender's mark or in a dangerous position where he won't take an OA from OAing you), Crane's Wing (Push enemy away from OA range), Five Storms (Shift 2), Drunken Monkey (Att: slide enemy out of AO range, Move: + Wis mod vs OA's), Open the Gates of Battle (Pick enemy, that enemy cant OA you, period), Masterful Spiral (Stance: you can now attack enemies with some attacks from two squares away), Leaf on the Wind (turn forced movement into shifts so you can move towards your next target without provoking OA's), Dance of Swords (Discourage OA's becuase if enemy misses OA against you you gain CA), Twin Thunders (Choose adjacent enemy, he cant OA because of movement), 100 leaves (Push enemy 2 squares out of OA reach), Fist of 100 Strikes (Att: After damage you can shift, Move: Shift 2 squares), Strike the Avalanche (Att: Slide one enemy away from OA range, Knock him and others prone so they have -2 to attack; Move: Don't provoke OA's from prone enemies), Twilight Touch (Blinds enemies; -5 to attack), Spider Technique (At-Will Spider Climb Speed, so you can travel safer roads), Dance of the Stinging Hornet (Att: vs an enemy of you size or smaller, gain cover; vs. a larger enemy you gain cover and when you move when he moves without provoking OA's), Overpowering Strike (Att: Enemy takes penalty to attack rolls, Move: Shift 3), Way of the WInter Wind (Stance: Immediate Reaction Shift 2 when hit by attack, so you can move away from OA range), Ring the Golden Bell (Jump without provoking OA's, Dazed enemies can't OA), Steps of Grasping Fire (Discourages people from OA'ing you by dealing damage if they do), Three Winds Kick (Att: You can attack up two 3 times, shifting 2 spaces after each attack), Fist of Golden Fire (Blinds enemies), Hungry Ghost (Move: Phasing so you can move through safer routes, insubstantial so you only take half damage), Wandering Comet Strike (Attack and teleport up to 3 times), Celestial Drunken Boxer (Shift 4), Tap the life well (Att: Damage, Teleport and Daze; move: Teleport), Mist of the Storm (Stance: Insubtantial and Phasing), Divine Sun (Teleport), Rising Sun Technique (Tilll end of encounter crits blind), Tormented Spirit (Teleport, enemy grants CA), Vengeful Ghost (Stuns, Dazes)
Wow, after all the time it seems you spent on other stuff you couldn't have taken the time to format that list of powers?
And yes the monk has some powers that help him avoid OA or increase his defense against OA. But that is not the issue. The issue is that you HAVE to use those powers to get the ability to avoid or increase your defense against OA. As for those powers most of them are encounter powers which means you'll be using them ONCE per encounter to help avoid OA. Assuming you take those specific powers!
Drunken Monkey is a perfect example of my point. Since it adds +Wis vs OA. Which is the same way the artful dodger's bonus works only with CHA and it's ALWAYS ON! The rogue doesn't need to use an encounter power and only get it for that one turn. The monk has to pick those specific powers if he wants to be good at avoiding OA while the artful dodger rogue gets a class feature that is always on to help protect from OA. Which is the whole point! Not that the monk doesn't have ways to avoid OA but rather they are much more situational.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Just like anybody can MC ranger and get multi attacks, or Wizard to get control powers, or Cleric to get healing, or Sorcerer to get Blasts... your point is? The only classes that has a clas feature that helps movement is.... a subclass of Rogue who has a +1 vs OA's? And one barbarian build who can charge once per encounter? Well, there is a subclass of druid that gets a +1 to speed... Sorry if I don't understand your concern, the monk can get much better than any of those with his powers.
Um those classes are define by more then their powers.
The ranger can use any 1H weapon in his off-hand if he goes the TWF route. That's a heck of advantage over a class simply trying to MC in for the multi-attacks. Though even that bonus isn't as good now thanks to double weapons. And prime shot which encourage him to be the closest which is similar to his HQ since it targets the closest enemy when you active it.
The wizard gets cantrips and Arcane Implement which let him do some extra effects once per encounter. None of which someone MC in would get.
The cleric has healing word which is encounter and I don't think MC in for daily healing really constitutes as them getting his healing. Sure the cleric has other healing powers but there are far more limited and many are also dailies. It's the encounter healing word that really helps define him. As well as the Divine Channel even though it's something that all Divine classes get but with different powers all under the same same category.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
A PURE monk is far more mobile because he has far much more FD movement options to choose from than a person who takes an encounter or daily power or even Paragon multiclasses into one. And it looks more resilient only if it takes a feat, then the monk can take one feat and have the same AC, and better NAD's and more ways to avoid OA's... so the monk looks better off after all; no?
How does the artful dodger look more resilient only if you take a feat? You get that CHA bonus to OA all the time regardless of any other feats you take. Since CHA is your main secondary stat it's not to hard to see it being at least 16 for a +3 vs OA at level 1. But since your increasing it by 30 you have +7 vs OA.
How is that NOT more resilient then the monk's setup of only getting bonuses against OA when he uses specific powers? That means you have to take a specific power build while the rogue can choose ANY of this powers and still have that bonus which is again the point.
I've seen several players take the artful dodger route and they walk around the battle normally without worrying about bothering to worry about shifting to avoid OA. Because they know the odds of the monster hitting them is so rare they don't care if they provoke that OA.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Except you don't get armor proficiencies by MC... and if you end up Hybrid-classing you get the worst of the two. You aren't making much sense here.
I said if you MC in, which means if your starting as another class and become a MC monk.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Except that it means you will be harder to hit on all defenses instead of having one glaring weak spot the DM is gonna exploit in his encounters. So that means, less damage, less status effects.
Yea if the DM wants to hurt you he can. And all classes have a glaring weak spot the bonus they give only marginally increases so it's less glaring since odds are you don't have very good attribute bonus to Fort as a DEX/WIS monk and won't be increasing it.
Plus the DM should focus on making thing interesting not exploiting the player's weaknesses. We had a DM who was a real jerk about that kind of thing and we no longer play with him. He would constant put in monsters that targeted parties weakest saves, gang up on squishy party members ignoring heavier armored defenders(this was 3x before "defender" role and penalties for ignoring them), as well as putting out fire resistant monsters after the wizard gets a bunch of fire spells since the last several fighters were against cold monsters that were weak to fire.
Once in a while for the DM to hit the players where their weak can keep things interesting and spice things up. But doing it constantly in every encounter is just bad DMing.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Except it's thematic, but yeah, let's forget the Monk's most thematic ability, the ability to kill with your bare hands; that would be a excellent design idea.
I never suggested we simply forget about unarmed strike. Only that mechanically it's not interesting and don't nothing for play style. Plus the monk has other weapon options so it's not like monks are gonna be confined to unarmed attacks. And other people view it just as thematic to have a monk who fights with a staff or spear. So that comes down to personal choice on style of char.
In fact depending on what feats WoTC releases we might end up seeing more weapon oriented monk builds the unarmed. Of course that is pure speculation as we just have to wait and see if the unarmed gets proper support to make it comparative with weapon options.
My point is once again there is nothing mechanically interesting about it compared to other weapons but I was not just unarmed attack it was the other parts of the class as well.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Except you have to take a feat to be able to use a weapon within that 'whole weapon group' not to mention that you have to take the feat every time you want a new weapon from that weapon group.... Not to mention that you ate ignoring the fact that the designers have said they would include feats so that you can use other weapons and get some nice bonus with them.
Other classes can take a feat to use other weapons and while the monk can too his powers don't let him use other weapons because they are not "monk" weapons.
This is a play test which means we are suppose to point out what's wrong, missing, and etc. from the class. Just because the develops claim they intend to address that doesn't mean we can't still point out it's an issue to further reinforce their feedback that it is a major concern and doesn't simply get a quick once over.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
First of all; only 19 out of 135 Attack powers give the ranger free movement, to claim that 14% is, by any stretch of the imagination a TON, requires some kind of mental acrobatics that I just can't perform.
Yea percentage of powers don't mean much. Especially when the Ranger has had the full treatment of a second book (Martial Power) which adds a whole new list of powers many of which are to support the new Beast Ranger build style. The mobile move and multi-attack style it seems they felt had enough.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Also... the Monk gets +3 with his unarmed strike, just like the link you provided gives the 'ranger-monk'. So now you are just making up stuff by claiming it only has a +2 to attack with unarmed strike. Not only that you are also imagining people are complaining about that imaginary +2 Unarmed strike.
?! I NEVER said the monk had a +2 attack. My statement was as follows.
"And the original suggestion for Ranger as monk gave him +3 which I think is another reason everyone was surprised by and complains about the +2."
Which I will admit I forgot to put AC behind the +3 but even then I figured it would obvious I was talking about AC. Cause if you have been reading the various topics on the monk play test many people have brought up the issue of him having only +2 bonus to AC and that he should have +3 instead. I was pointing out that in original conversion suggestion gave him +3.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
A TWF Ranger will begin with lower or equal defenses than a monk in cloth so I don't know what you mean with 'a better armor position' if a TWF ranger is likely to begin with 16 AC sacrificing wisdom and becoming MAD (more so when trying to get chaimail) while the monk can easily begin with 17.
If the ranger decides to go heavy armor MAD isn't really that much of an issue cause he can then choose to ignore DEX all together and focus on Melee attacks. STR and CON are the stats need for heavy armor and they don't need to be that high combined with Ranger's primary stat as TWF is STR anyway. And the ranger doesn't need to be able to get into plate at level 1 he can wait for the 2 point increase to CON by level 21 for it. Plate only needs 15 CON so if you start with 13 CON you can get 15 at 21st level. That's not really MAD issue since many setups easily get 2 18s and have a 13.
The point is once again the monk is lacking these options to increase his AC. Going heavy armor for the monk would be dumb because he is a DEX based class and would cause massive MAD anyway. But even so he is missing out on a way to increase his basic AC.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
And the ranger has every 1h weapon open to him? Not completely true, he can use military or simple weapons, he still needs a feat to use superior weapons. But the more important question is; who cares if the ranger begins with more weapon choices? Being able two hit with warhammers isn't what a monk is supposed to look like. It would appear to me that you would rather have the monk be an exact copy of the ranger, rather than a faithful representation of its archetype.
Yes I know the Ranger needs a feat to use the superior weapons effectively. I said all 1H weapons were open to him, as in he could get them if he wanted. I didn't think I needed to explain he should have the feat. I figure that it was obviously a given. After all when people say a rogue can use any light blade to sneak attack with it seems obvious they mean as long as he is prof and thus paid the feat.
Besides you don't actually need the feat to use a weapon. You only need it to get the prof bonus.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Hmmm.... let's see;
Powers that have movement as part of a standard action: Whirling Mantis Step, Fist of 100 Strikes, Ring the Golden Bell, Three Winds Kick, Wandering Comet Strike, Tap the Life Well, Rising Sun Technique = 6 attacks
Full Disciplines that let you use the Attack Technique while using the movement technique: Dance of the Stinging Hornet =1
Attacks that give you free movement till end of encounter: Way of the Winter Wind = 1
FD movement that deals damage: Steps of Grasping Fire = 1
Total: 9, Percentage: 25% compared to the Rangers 14% the monk is more mobile.
So, do you really think a monk would benefit from MC to take some of that 14% so he can shift after attacking, which is basically all of that 14% does; it lets you shift. The monk can laugh at the Ranger's supposed mobility.
One again the percentages don't matter. It's how many powers are available after all you only ever have FOUR Encounter Attack powers and the same goes for Dailies. As well as the at-wills of course.
As for the powers you listed there are several problems. First off while Steps of Grasping fire is a cool power it doesn't give you "free movement" as part of the attack. It does the typical FD thing.
Next Way of the Winter Wind doesn't also doesn't have movement as part of the attack. The movement comes from it being a stance which last the whole encounter. That said yes it is a cool power with monk feel and I'd like to see more like it. But it's still a daily which means that once per day you can do it.
Lastly Dance of the Singing Hornet is a grab attack. It only gives any sort of movement if your target is larger which isn't very common for most classes since medium players and NPC are far more common. So it is highly situational.
So yea that brings the real total to more like 6 for the monk and 19 for the Ranger. Cause percentage of total powers doesn't mean much. Since classes are meant to have multiple themes like in the case of the Ranger so the powers get slip over things like Mobility, TWF, Range, Beast, and etc. So of course as they add more options curtain areas will take up a smaller percentage. I'm sure if you looked at just the PHB Ranger powers the mobility ones would take up a much larger percentage then 14%
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Besides is not as if this is the first class who is most defined by its powers than it's features, look at the TWR and multi-attacks, the Wizard who delivers his control no through features but powers, the barbarian rages, the Warden's Forms to a lesser extent. Ad you seem to be ignoring his most important and defining feature; his unarmed strike is thematically and mechanically unique amongst the other classes.
Their class features add onto their powers.
The TWR like I've already mention can use non-off-hand weapons in his off hand. Something no other class can which means be benefits more from the Multi-Attack powers. Though this isn't as true thanks to double weapons.
The wizard has some implement choices which give bonuses to attack, damage, or increase the length of an effect. Thanks to arcane power he now has 6 choices. But these choices really add to the feel of the wizard and can effect how it's played.
Sure someone MC into barb will get the rage effect on a specific power. But he can't use Rage Strike with his other dailies for the big hit like a barb can. Also the barb chooses between two different effects that trigger when he kills an enemy. This also helps to define the class as well as the powers.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
The FD is the mechanic of the monk, just like a wizards powers are it's most defining attribute. Also, anybody can go and take the Ranger's Multiattacks, or the Barbarian's Rages. I mean complaining that someone can get another's powers is beyond stupid. And yes, they would want the FoB, just like you can get Sneak Attack with MC rogue, or HQ with MC Ranger or OOE with MC Avenger. When someone multiclasses into a striker they want the striker feature, nothing else.
That's coming pretty close to a person attack which is frowned upon by the terms of use in forums.
If you actually paid attention to what I was saying then you would of noticed I wasn't complaining about other classes being able to take monk's FD. I was saying that monk doesn't really have any interesting class features that define it and someone who MC into monk class isn't missing out much. Cause let's assume they do add feats that make other weapons monk weapons which are equal or better then unarmed strike. Then someone MC in wouldn't care they can't use unarmed strike which is currently the best weapon the monk has.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
Well, if someonw wants to use Five Storms so he can shift every turn he would need to Paragon multiclass, that would mean spend four feats and the chance to get a Paragon Path. So no need for your alarm that someone "can use it's Shift 2 every turn and still use another attack power!!" (nice usage of the double exclamation mark, by the way). And why can't the monk do that effectively; if he wanted to the monk could either: Use the movement part of an at will and use a daily power or, this is going to amaze you, multiclass to get non FD powers. And this brings me to my next point and yours as well.
You are forgetting that just as another class has to not only multiclass but Paragon Multiclass (something you seem to have forgotten) to use the movement portion of a FD to then use any other attack, the monk can MC or PMC into other classes to do the same thing.
I didn't forget. Like many things in my post I assumed it was a given but you seem to have completely missed that. Just like when you say you can MC in to get another classes Encounter/Daily/Utility power you don't have to explain you need to first take the MC feat then take the other feat that swaps the powers. It's pretty much a given as most of us here know the rules already and don't need every item explained how it was reached. Just saying that it can be reached is enough for most.
Now if you wanna argue the cost to reach it is not worth it then that's different. But simply saying it's been over looked or the statement is wrong because those requirements aren't mentioned isn't really a valid argument.
And the point I was trying to make is that FD powers are actually more powerful to MC, and now the new Hybrid builds. Because a pure monk pretty much has to use the attack tied to that movement. Yes I'm aware he could use a daily since it's not a FD but that's ONCE per day for each power. Given the number of combats and number of rounds for each combat given per day that's not gonna happen all that often and thus not as useful.
Especially compared to someone who had FD At-Will and non-FD At-Will along with other non-FD encounter powers. Because they can use it with more versatility and options then a pure monk. Thus it becomes more powerful to non-pure monk setups which I think is a flaw in the FD mechanic not the monk class.
brotherjgizmo wrote:
So to recap; You are wrong that: .....
Yea I'm not gonna go over that whole list when it's what you already said and I've replied to above. And most of the items you point out are from you misunderstanding what I was getting at. Or trying to correct my omissions because I assumed they were given and most people would realize it's what I meant.
Well, first of all, let me apologize if you felt attacked, It was not my intention at all, my intention was to point out some differences in opinion is all. I do not believe a monk needs a constant plus vs OA's (though I would not be vehemently against the change), I think that the monk, unlike the Rogue, has much more mobility open to him with his FD powers and thus can avoid OA's as well as the Rogue without requiring a constant bonus vs. OA's.
I also disagree on the need for the monk to have some sort of amazing feature. Sure the ranger can wield non off-hand weapons in both hands, but I don't think that is so amazing, I think that it is as bland a feature as you think the monk's Unarmed Combatant is.
I'll admit I misunderstood somethings, but with the lack of words I had to extrapolate sometimes, the +3 to Ac, I think it would be fine if the Monk had something more similar to the Avengers Armor of Faith, and a feat similar to the improved armor of fate (although, once again, I don't think it is a necessary change).
As for the FD thing, I like how they work, they work similarly to 'katas?' (that's the word right). I think that the combination of Improved attack + Improved Movement opens the doors for a ton of strategy and makes the monk the thinking man's striker; do you have to spend an AP to change between FD? Sure, but that's the prize you pay for having the equivalent of Utility powers attached to your attacks; also I like the fact that I can use the movement part of a FD and then Charge, or The Attack part and shift or jump, depending on my circumstances.
As for the MC Monks, sure they might be able to have extra mobility some of the time, but the monk is gonna have much more options in mobility and attacks with his FD and Dailies. You see the FD's as much to situational, I see the FD as a spellbook of sorts that let you get out how you want to when you want to, or attack how you want to when you want to. Also, you claim that a class gains more MC into monk, but they do have to take lower damage dice to do so due to the Monk Weapon Requirements (Which I think is a great stopguard placed by the Designers) now suddenly a ranger has to consider wether he wants to give up his higher damage dice to be able to shift 2 spaces every turn.
Either way, you seem like a fun guy to have a reasoned discussion with (not many around here), and I apologize if I was too abrasive. If there's more you want to discuss with the Monk class, I'm currently checking this thread frequently, hoping a Dev will come and tell us how the monk is coming along.
What power are you talking about?? I couldn't find any power that lets you shift several squares and does 1[W]+stat and has area effect.
I'm talking about Five Storms. It lets you shift two as a move action, which is my point -- the total effect of the power is much greater than equivalent powers from other classes, but in exchange it costs your move action.
Also the way you talk sounds like you don't understand how FD works.
No, I understand it fine. Read the post: "The point was that making you spend your move action if you want to use the special movement power means both the movement and the attack can be more powerful."
You don't get the Move & Attack actions for the cost of a standard action. It cost your Move action to use the Move part of FD. So saying he gets the move part of FD as part of the attack which makes him like the other classes who get those is just plain wrong.
I didn't say that. I said he gets an attack power that is just as good as any other at-will attack power (compare Five Storms to, say, the Swordmage's Swordburst), PLUS he gets a special bonus to his move should he choose to use it.
That was my point in comparing the Attack part of the FD powers to other powers -- to show that his attacks are equal to any other at will attacks, and that's without considering the movement ability it unlocks. (In a few cases the attack is slightly more restrictive, such as Five Storms targeting all instead of enemies.)
As for your other post on how the Monk's AC is worst I don't think people are so much comparing the straight AC value as both the progression of AC and the OA AC that artful dodger rogues can get. If a rogue wants +1 AC at level 1 he just upgrades to hide the monk doesn't have that choice cause he can only upgrade to leather which is the same AC. Pointing out that most rogues don't choose it is not the issue, the issue is that they CAN if they want.
The Monk's normal AC progression will be the same as the rogue's; they both boost Dex at every opportunity anyway. The charisma rogue's OA defense increases double-speed, but that's pretty much his special ability (and synergizes with the rogue's need to get into flanking position a lot). The monk's special ability, by contrast, is to have all KINDS of special movement powers. A rogue can't just decide to ignore difficult terrain, or run up a wall, or what have you; he's always going to (essentially) ignore OAs. It's a very standard trade of power for flexibility.
And saying oh they will probably fix in PH3 completely misses the point. The point is this is a play test and to point out what is wrong with it NOW and we can not simply assume they will fix it cause we think it's obviously missing. You NEVER assume anything during testing phases that's how things slip through the cracks. Everyone assumes the problems is obvious and someone will fix so they don't mention it.
No, it's been mentioned. It's been mentioned to DEATH now. It's time to stop saying "monks have low AC" because monks do not have inherently low AC; they currently lack ways to upgrade AC, which isn't the same thing at all.
As for the OA the artful dodger rogue can get tons of boost to OA which is extremely helpful for getting around the board. Since many of the monk's extra moves don't actually let you avoid OA you are stuck with having to allow them. And for those who argue sometimes you wanna let the enemy hit you I just have to say, Well that's nice for you but what about those who don't wanna play that style/tactic? The point is again there isn't even the option!
Drunken Monkey gives you the same bonus (for that one turn) as Artful Dodger; Dragon's Tail essentially allows a shift that also shifts your ally; Five Storms lets you shift further than anyone else can; Twin Thunders lets you make one enemy not able to OA you... Almost every move power gives you some sort of benefit that you can use to avoid OAs or use them to your advantage.
And I'll say it again: Flexibility. Avoiding OAs is nice, yes! But sometimes OAs aren't the problem. Sometimes you need to get another two squares, or having two extra squares of movement negates the OA altogether by letting you stay out of reach while you get where you were going. Sometimes you need to avoid difficult terrain. Sometimes you just need to move two squares, and making those shifts instead of moves means negating the OA. It's tactics. I'd be very bored if every melee striker were required to have the same ability a charisma rogue has!
And yes I know this is a play test but again that is the whole POINT. We are suppose to point out what is wrong and missing. And don't simply assume WoTC is going to add it cause unless we speak up and tell them what we think is lacking we are not doing a very good job of play testing.
Right, so I'm going to disagree with you when you claim that there's something wrong and missing because the monk can't avoid OAs quite as well as a rogue can.
DO monks have lousy striker damage? Do they really?
Let's not look at the rogue, who has the best damage spike in the game because it's harder to use. Instead, let's look at the others. There's a ranger and the warlock -- 1d6 damage. Barbarians I'll leave out, because they just have a higher standard damage output and it's hard to separate out the spike.
So they average 3 to 4 damage with their spike, and that upgrades by a die each tier. They don't get to add their enhancement bonus to the damage, because they already applied that to the attack. A ranger's bow attack deals 1[w]+Dex+enhancement+1d6. A monk's punch deals 1[w]+Dex+enhancement, and somebody nearby takes Wis extra damage.
So if we assume you buy an 18 in dex (and why wouldn't you?), that leaves us with a +2 or +3 in wisdom, depending on race.
Is that so awful? The spike is essentially one point lower for a monk, and in exchange for that point they can choose to put it somewhere other than the primary target. Minions being the prime choice.
Now, we know that the Centered Breath style is meant to be controller-ish, so as you go up in level you can spread your spikes around but you don't deal more damage to a particular target... But, on the other hand, you're adding a secondary stat to your damage, so it'll be increasing by 4 over 30 levels.
At 11th level, when the ranger starts dealing 2d6 (7 damage), you're throwing down 3-4 damage against two enemies. At 21st level, the ranger has 3d6 (10-11 damage), and you're doing 5-6 damage to every enemy around you whenever you hit.
And because you hit, you already dealt your Enhancement Bonus damage this turn -- you dealt it to your primary target.
I don't think this is unfair. It makes the Center Breath monk better against groups and worse against solos -- no real problem with that, honestly. They're meant to be secondary controllers. I expect that the Strength-based Flurry will deal better single-target damage but lack the option to spread the hurt around; it'll be a more standard striker damage spike.
I'll also say that it's likely there'll be a feat for boosting Flurry damage, similar to Backstabber and Lethal Hunter.
I think that FoB can be bettered though to add to the monk's flavor, that's why I say that instead of at level 11 being able to hit thre creatures once, you cshould be able to use FoB three times. And at level 21st instead of each adjacent enemy being able to use it 9 times (or possibly less if that is too powerful.
As for the MC Monks, sure they might be able to have extra mobility some of the time, but the monk is gonna have much more options in mobility and attacks with his FD and Dailies. You see the FD's as much to situational, I see the FD as a spellbook of sorts that let you get out how you want to when you want to, or attack how you want to when you want to. Also, you claim that a class gains more MC into monk, but they do have to take lower damage dice to do so due to the Monk Weapon Requirements (Which I think is a great stopguard placed by the Designers) now suddenly a ranger has to consider wether he wants to give up his higher damage dice to be able to shift 2 spaces every turn.
The Ranger doesn't need to go to lower damage dice weapons if he just gets the mobility since the move part of FD doesn't require you to have a monk weapon. And a dagger rogue is good to go as well being dagger is a monk weapon. Plus if WoTC are adding feats that make monk's prof in other weapons along with making those weapons monk weapons odds are the Ranger could just grab one of those feats instead of the normal weapon prof feat to maintain a higher damage dice weapon.
So in the case of that ranger he could shift 2 every turn and still be using his standard weapons and Twin Striking, or other encounter powers every turn. Since TS seems to be the more popular choice for Ranger At-Will. Plus if you take Human you get an extra At-Will so they could still have 2 At-Wills from the primary class and that 3rd from the monk FD to get extra movement in.
What I'm trying to get at is the monk should be allowed the same flexibility with his own powers that someone who PMC into monk gets. Or that a Monk who PMC into another class gets. That is the ability to use a movement technique from one FD then a different attack power. And while yes I know he can do that with Dailies but the fact remains he can't do it with Encounter or At-Wills which is what your gonna be doing most of the time in combat.
And honestly I think that would make the monk feel more monk like cause it would open up movement options instead of limiting them to standard movement or the one specific movement tied to that power. Which in many ways is similar to the way powers that have "free" movement as part of the attack work in that you only get that movement when using that power.
I don't think that would really break the FD mechanic either because encounter FD powers still have the restriction of once per turn. So if you wanna waste your encounter power to do it's move and then do the At-Will attack that's fine. But if on the other hand you wanna use an At-Wills movement technique and then that encounter attack technique you can.
This way a Pure Monk can choose to use the Fire Storm's Shift 2 every turn if he wants and a different attack. Something that a PMC Monk can easily do. And this makes the monk much more interesting and monk like since you now have 2 At-Will movement options that are always available. Which is kinda what the PMC gets, except it's only 1 instead of 2, and that is my whole issue with the FD mechanic that allows them this freedom with FD not granted to a Pure Monk.
Is that so awful? The spike is essentially one point lower for a monk, and in exchange for that point they can choose to put it somewhere other than the primary target. Minions being the prime choice.
Yea in a lot of ways FoB like Cleave during heroic tier though for smacking nearby minions. And smacking minions is often best done with AoE by controllers. But even so given how situational that is it's more like a minor selling point the a major one.
From personally experience our group is not all that impressed with minions. The idea and concept behind them is interesting but often times they are a push over and the standard monster would of been more of threat. Which has lead to our DM almost never using them anymore except in cases where another monster summons them or some other kind of constant spawning mechanism.
Keenath wrote:
Now, we know that the Centered Breath style is meant to be controller-ish, so as you go up in level you can spread your spikes around but you don't deal more damage to a particular target... But, on the other hand, you're adding a secondary stat to your damage, so it'll be increasing by 4 over 30 levels.
Yea and the Sorcerer's increase by +8 over 30 levels and is always doing damage to everyone hit.
Keenath wrote:
At 11th level, when the ranger starts dealing 2d6 (7 damage), you're throwing down 3-4 damage against two enemies. At 21st level, the ranger has 3d6 (10-11 damage), and you're doing 5-6 damage to every enemy around you whenever you hit.
It's very convent how you don't bother to take the feat nearly every ranger would take that increase d6 to d8. So the real numbers for the Ranger are more like, At 11th level 2d8 (9 Dmg), At 21st level 3d8 (13.5 Dmg). This makes the monk's 3-4 Dmg at level 11 and the 5-6 Dmg at 21 seem a lot worst.
So basically the monk needs to hit 2 enemies to do equal damage of HQ during his paragon tier even on your numbers. That doesn't really seem fair. And during Epic he can do slightly better but only if he has 3 enemies to hit? Since a standard encounter is 5 monsters depending on how things play out it might be hard to keep 3 next to each other to do that every turn. Again not very fair.
Keenath wrote:
I don't think this is unfair. It makes the Center Breath monk better against groups and worse against solos -- no real problem with that, honestly. They're meant to be secondary controllers. I expect that the Strength-based Flurry will deal better single-target damage but lack the option to spread the hurt around; it'll be a more standard striker damage spike.
I will agree that it's not unreasonable the CB Monk is better at groups and worst on solos. The problem is he needs to have a group to face to even equal the damage of other strikers.
If you look a things other then striker damage you can notice a bit of a pattern with regards to multi-attacks vs solo attacks. Powers that target several enemies tend to do much more damage overall then single powers. So they don't do as much to a single target and thus not as good against a solo but they do quite well against groups cause it's the same damage all around.
For example you have a power that does 3[W] + stat and you have a power at the same level that is burst/blast or target 2 creatures odds are it will be 2[W] + stat as long as it doesn't have some major effect. This means if you only hit 1 enemy your weaker then the solo targeting power. But if you target 2 then you get a total of 4[W] + 2xStat which is clearly better with the down side of it being spread around more. It seems to be a common thing to drop 1 Dice to become AoE, not cut the damage in 1/2 which is what CB FoB seems to do.
The point I think everyone who says the striker damage for the monk is low is trying to make that you pretty much have to be fighting a group just to EQUAL what several other strikers can do against solo targets. That's not fair.
Because the CB does target multiple targets it's actually better to compare it to the sorcerer instead of solo target strikers. The sorcerer's striker damage is lacking if you only ever hit one target. But if you hit 2 or more it quickly begins to out shine other strikers as long as he can hit other targets. This is easy for the sorcerer with AoE powers. But the monk has to get next to multiple targets to pull this off which can be a bit harder to manage which you combine with he has to do it to maintain equal standing to solo targeting strikers overall damage it becomes problematic.
If you compare sorcerer's extra damage which is always to as many targets as she hits. Compared to the monk's and let's assume they both have 16 in their secondary stat. Starting out the Monk does 3 Damage (To 1 Target) and the Sorcerer does 3 Damage (To all targets it hits). At 11th level the Monk is now doing 4 Damage (To up to 2 Targets Max) while the sorcerer is now doing 6 Damage (To all targets it hits). Then at 21st Level the monk is now 6 Damage (To up to 8 targets assuming he can get that many to surround him) while the sorcerer has is now doing 10 Damage (To all targets it hits). This means come epic tier the Monk needs to hit 2 targets just to reach what the sorcerer can do to each target she hits and he needs to hit 3 targets to catchup to single target strikers like Ranger and Rogue.
Yes I know there is the potential of some nasty "Total" damage if the monk can get in the middle of a bunch of enemies but so what. With greater risk comes greater reward. Running into the middle of a large group of enemies with typical striker armor is probably not a wise move and could likely get you killed. But at Epic level doing an extra 6-7 (Added 7 cause you get more attrib later) to a single target is pathetic. Doing 6-7 to two is more reasonable but means you always need be next to two enemies or more.
EDIT: At any tier 5 standard monsters is the average and even if you could get adjacent to them all in say an Epic encounter that makes you do a grand total of 30-35 striker damage but spread over FIVE monsters. The odds of this happening are close to never, unless you have a ton of minions in which case it doesn't matter if you do 1 or 1K damage cause they die in one hit. So arguing for less damage on that reason is pointless since you multi-striked a bunch of 1 HP monsters.
Even the case of getting next to 3 is likely to be a rare occurrence because of monster roles. You will likely have 2 Brutes/Soldiers per encounter who will likely stay near each other as they engage the Defenders while the controllers, lurkers, and artilery monsters stay spaced out trying to flank and attack from rear. Thus getting 3 adjacent to you is gonna be a rare thing. This is because smart DMs tend not to cluster monsters since AoE are more of a threat then monk's FoB.
Keenath wrote:
I'll also say that it's likely there'll be a feat for boosting Flurry damage, similar to Backstabber and Lethal Hunter.
The warlock doesn't get a feat to boost his damage and given that the Developers have made no mention of this I don't think you can safely make that assumption. It is more like pure speculation at this point.
Well, the thing is that the quarry is not the ranger's damage booster. It's negligible even at epic levels and almost no ranger build would even really notice if it would be gone. The ranger's true damage boost is getting the chance to apply the whole pile of static damage mods twice (yes I know that there are also non-multi-attack ranger powers, but guess which ones suck damage-wise compared to the others).
That leaves the warlock and that's just incidently the striker class who is always criticized for it's low damage.
