D&D Insider brings you another exclusive playtest opportunity this month with a second look at hybrid characters from Player's Handbook 3. The hybrid character rules allow you to combine elements of two character classes into a whole. Effectively, you create a brand-new class from portions of two classes. We analyzed your comments from the first round of playtesting and present the results here for a second round. Check out hybrid characters and send us your feedback at dndinsider@wizards.com.
The hybrid character rules break down each class into parts. The hybrid version of a class provides a portion of the game benefits of the normal class (hit points, defenses, proficiencies, class features, and so forth). When combined with the hybrid version of another class, these two partial classes create a whole, functional class.
Discuss this article here.
Mudbunny SVCL for DDI
This new community site is in Beta, pardon our dust and be patient as new functionality is added over time
Extremely strange as now DDI is giving an error claiming that it is "temporarily unavailable" whenever I try to log into it, could someone have accidentally posted it on the site a day early and then turned off the login service to keep people out while they try to fix it?
I got to it by first signing in to Insider, then following mudbunny's link directly. Didn't see it anywhere on the main D&D or Dragon pages. I thought the article wasn't due until Midnight tonight, so this is a bit of an early treat .
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More polished than the earlier article, as far as appearances go. Good to see the PH 2 classes given the hybrid treament; adds a lot of value to this playtest I think.
I thought 'hybrid talent' as it originally appeared was a bit over the top; I'd be a bit more comfortable with the 'hybrid talent options' now.
They still have the wording in there that it will not be RPGA legal and will not be in the Character Builder. But were we not told that it would be in the Character Builder update on June 2nd?
And although I will be sad if it is still not going to be RPGA legal, I can live with it for now. I am using a Hybrid Character in a Home Campaign.
Well that was an interesting read. Although someone more cynical then I (alright, I'm lying. I am this cynical) could say WotC has just saved themselves an article they have to produce every month or two. Now they can just tweak the previous playtest article, perhaps include a page or two of extra content and then republish it.
[/cynical]
In all fairness WotC did wait until the last week of the month before producing this, and they don't normally have new content in this week. So there's a good chance this is extra content rather then replacing previous content.
I'm more confident in this version of the playtest. Rather then outright getting extra class features, players will instead get approved, balanced versions of the class features.
I like pretty much every change made. The product here continues to impress me with how smoothly they have tackled an incredibly difficult scenario.
That said, my main concerns remain - namely, how good certain combinations can be. A Ranger/Rogue who focused on getting in lots of attacks as minor actions can stack up both Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. A Cleric/Warlord with Hybrid Talent is pretty much just a Warlord++. I see other similarly strong combinations, typically when combining roles.
It is true that there are incredibly strong builds outside of these rules as well. These combinations certainly aren't any more gamebreaking than other ones out there. If the rules were released as they are now, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
That said, here is what would make me happy: -Make all of the abilities that only trigger on attacks of their class (Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Sorcerous Power, Warlock's Curse) also only work on attacks require a Standard action.
That one big change would stop the only real abuse I see - the ability to have a character who spends the first half of combat doing double striker damage, or dealing striker damage while being a full tank, or so forth.
Outside of that, it is simply tweaking specifics (like trying to find a way to tone down Cleric/Warlord), but no other big changes really leap out at me. On the whole, this effort continues to do nothing but impress.
I like pretty much every change made. The product here continues to impress me with how smoothly they have tackled an incredibly difficult scenario.
That said, my main concerns remain - namely, how good certain combinations can be. A Ranger/Rogue who focused on getting in lots of attacks as minor actions can stack up both Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. A Cleric/Warlord with Hybrid Talent is pretty much just a Warlord++. I see other similarly strong combinations, typically when combining roles.
It is true that there are incredibly strong builds outside of these rules as well. These combinations certainly aren't any more gamebreaking than other ones out there. If the rules were released as they are now, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
That said, here is what would make me happy: -Make all of the abilities that only trigger on attacks of their class (Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Sorcerous Power, Warlock's Curse) also only work on attacks require a Standard action.
That one big change would stop the only real abuse I see - the ability to have a character who spends the first half of combat doing double striker damage, or dealing striker damage while being a full tank, or so forth.
Outside of that, it is simply tweaking specifics (like trying to find a way to tone down Cleric/Warlord), but no other big changes really leap out at me. On the whole, this effort continues to do nothing but impress.
I don't think the Cleric/Warlord thing is that bad. You lose 1 feat and you lose 1 use of a heal per an encounter at level 16+. You also have to deal with worse MAD than if you were just a Warlord. You do gain the versatility of having the two classes and healing word (which is only good if you feed into the MAD). Its not a bad combo, but its not OPed at all.
I just want to start by saying how amazingly AWESOME the new hybrid classes are, both ph1 and 2.
I will get to work on breaking these asap to find if anything else is needed; though it looks as if everything has been addressed.
-- Quick note, in the final issue, the wizard needs a title for his hybrid class and you may want to consider allowing the spellbook hybrid option which would work for only wizard daily and utility spells.
*EDIT* Aha, just read the Design article, I understand now why there's no spellbook.
I have a fear or two still...like the paragon hybrid swordmage/avenger who at level 11 takes the hybrid fro one AC up, and has had the other, plus the feats that up both...
at level 11 in cloth 5 level 5 or 6 stat, 5 avenger 4 swordmage +3 magic 31 AC...and that is without even trying...I think this will stack to unhitable way to easyly
[quote author=57850618 post=363359505]The problem with CharOp is it fails miserably in a lot of cases to take in versatility as a factor. It's just about TEH DPPPPPPRRRRZ. Not durability, dpr, skills etc.[/quote]
Deva puts 16 in both Int and Wis +2 both…18/18 12 in str 12 in con 8 in cha 10 in dex
Armor of Faith The favor of your deity wards you from harm. While you are neither wearing heavy armor nor using a shield, you gain a +3 bonus to AC.
Improved Armor of Faith Prerequisite: Avenger, armor of faith power Benefit: While you are neither wearing heavy armor nor using a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
Swordmage Warding While you are conscious and wielding either a light blade or a heavy blade, you maintain a field of magical force around you. This field provides a +1 bonus to AC, or a +3 bonus if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).
GREATER SWORDMAGE WARDING Prerequisite: lIth level, Str l3, Con l3, swordmage, Swordmage Warding class feature Benefit: While your Swordmage Warding is active, you gain a +1 feat bonus to all defenses. At 21st level, this bonus increases to +2.
Armor Proficiency (Hide) Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, training with leather armor Benefit: You gain training with hide armor. Armor Proficiency (Leather) Benefit: You gain training with leather armor.
Base def +1 will +1 Fort 11th level (+3 hide)+6 (Int 21)+5 (1/2 level) +5 (Class and feat)+9= 35 AC 20 Fort 24 Ref 25 Will HP 87 #hs 8 21st level (+5 hide) +9 (Int 24)+7 (1/2 level)+10 (Class and feat) +11= 47 AC 29 Fort 34 Ref 35 Will HP 148 #hs 9 30th level (+6 hide) +11 (Int 26)+8 (1/2 level)+15 (Class and feat) +11= 55 AC 33 Fort 41 Ref 42 Will HP 202 #hs 9
edit: that is three feats...
[quote author=57850618 post=363359505]The problem with CharOp is it fails miserably in a lot of cases to take in versatility as a factor. It's just about TEH DPPPPPPRRRRZ. Not durability, dpr, skills etc.[/quote]
Deva puts 16 in both Int and Wis +2 both…18/18 12 in str 12 in con 8 in cha 10 in dex
Armor of Faith The favor of your deity wards you from harm. While you are neither wearing heavy armor nor using a shield, you gain a +3 bonus to AC.
Improved Armor of Faith Prerequisite: Avenger, armor of faith power Benefit: While you are neither wearing heavy armor nor using a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC. The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at 21st level.
Swordmage Warding While you are conscious and wielding either a light blade or a heavy blade, you maintain a field of magical force around you. This field provides a +1 bonus to AC, or a +3 bonus if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).
GREATER SWORDMAGE WARDING Prerequisite: lIth level, Str l3, Con l3, swordmage, Swordmage Warding class feature Benefit: While your Swordmage Warding is active, you gain a +1 feat bonus to all defenses. At 21st level, this bonus increases to +2.
Armor Proficiency (Hide) Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, training with leather armor Benefit: You gain training with hide armor. Armor Proficiency (Leather) Benefit: You gain training with leather armor.
Base def +1 will +1 Fort 11th level (+3 hide)+6 (Int 21)+5 (1/2 level) +5 (Class and feat)+9= 35 AC 20 Fort 24 Ref 25 Will HP 87 #hs 8 21st level (+5 hide) +9 (Int 24)+7 (1/2 level)+10 (Class and feat) +11= 47 AC 29 Fort 34 Ref 35 Will HP 148 #hs 9 30th level (+6 hide) +11 (Int 26)+8 (1/2 level)+15 (Class and feat) +11= 55 AC 33 Fort 41 Ref 42 Will HP 202 #hs 9
edit: that is three feats...
That is somewhat worrying. Can anyone achieve something comparable to this with a pure Swordmage or a pure Avenger? Or can someone explain why this Avenger/Swordmage isn't anywhere near as good as a pure Swordmage or a pure Avenger?
I'll give it a try on my own, but I came to D&D with 4th ed so building characters using D&D rules is new for me. And trying to build a min-maxed/optimised character is still a foreign concept. So even if its possible, there's a good chance I won't see how to.
Actually you need AP: Leather as you only get the APs both classes have, and Avenger is a bit short on APs.
The main issue with the Hybrid classes is the base class features, the powers pretty much don't matter, as long as they keep the balance of the base class features sorted this all works.
Pre the release of the Hybrid rules, we achieved this by restricting characters to the one class for base features, but allowing power picks from any class.
As the above super defence build above demonstrates stacking these sorts of base features causes problems.
As the above super defence build above demonstrates stacking these sorts of base features causes problems.
Yea but part of the problem on that is the avenger was already broken on AC. He could get higher AC then any other class in the game before Hybrid. The hybrid allows him to keep all that armor gaining ability and stack on another class's AC bonuses.
WoTC could fix this bonus stacking by saying these are "Class bonuses" and just like other type bonuses such as feat, item, and etc they do not stack. If they did that the hybrid would only be able to reach the avengers high AC.
Also WoTC needs to errata the Avenger to change his +3 bonus to when unarmed or in cloth armor which will bring his AC back down to where defenders are in AC :P.
Those 2 changes would solve a lot of problems and not require a bunch of errata or rules changes for other areas.
The AC combo's were always going to be a problem, but you do have to be a Racial PP to get double bonuses. Anyone who gets a bonus to AC and can stack it with others is going to be trouble. A Warlock/Warden who gets Bonus AC from Con and Int is going to be trouble, among other options.
What they lack are class features.
Your Avenger/SM is missing out on damage from his class feature (important damage that supliments his playstyle) and he's using a 1h weapon, further impeding him.
You say he's good, but what at, he's clearly able to avoid damage but what is he actually good at?
In regards to the actual article:
Its a lot better, but I feel the skills are still underwhelming and we still don't know what happens if we take a PMC, we'd clearly loose an at-will which would upset our balance of at-wills.
That said, my main concerns remain - namely, how good certain combinations can be. A Ranger/Rogue who focused on getting in lots of attacks as minor actions can stack up both Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry.
That said, here is what would make me happy: -Make all of the abilities that only trigger on attacks of their class (Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Sorcerous Power, Warlock's Curse) also only work on attacks require a Standard action.
I actually have my own rather radical idea on that.
[INDENT]REMOVE ALL ROLE DEFINING CLASS FEATURES FROM THE DEFAULT HYBRID BUILDS, adding them instead to the list of hybrid talent options (removing the hybrid restrictions) and make the various build defining class features (Brutal Scoundrel/Artful Dodger; Archery Style/Two-Weapon Style) into the default feature all classes get instead.
ADVANTAGES: This mostly stops any ability stacking, such as doubling up on striker damage, though with the new paragon rules it would become possible at lv.11, but as that costs the ability to select a paragon path it might balance it out (paths such as pit fighter already grant striker like benefits anyway). It also means that such attack dependent features would properly function on basic attacks. It would also allow hybrids to take advantage of build based rider effects on their powers from both classes. For me the best part of hybridizing is getting powers from two classes and I would like to see it possible to make the most of those powers. Lastly, it means that hybrid characters mostly only have one role (just like normal characters)
DISADVANTAGES: Players can no longer make dual-role characters, though in truth hybrids were often more like alternating role characters than true dual-roles. That restrictive nature of how hybrids alternate roles under the currently presented system makes it an easy sacrifice for me, though I'm sure there are some who enjoyed being able to create dual-role characters in spite of the restrictions. Perhaps the greater concern is that without selecting the Hybrid Talent feat a character would have no role defining class feature at all.
Taking that into account, perhaps a better solution would be for each hybrid class to dived up its class features into two lists; major talents and minor talents. Role defining features (striker damage, basic leader heal, defenders mark) would always be major talents, while most other class features would be minor talents. At character creation players would chose a major talent from one class and a minor talent from the other class. The Hybrid Talent would allow players to choose an additional minor talent from either class.[/INDENT]
Having gotten that hypothetical out of the way, I would like to move onto the current playtest as presented. Most notably my concerns over hybrid rangers.
[INDENT]ISSUE #1: With the exception of qualifying for perquisites, archery style doesn't really do anything other than grant a feat. My suggestion is to combine prime shot and archery style together into a single talent option. They go together thematically and the resulting fused talent would be more competitive with two-weapon style.
ISSUE #2: Don't nerf the hybrid beast companion. The companion is naturaly the single most defining aspect of the beast masters, nerfing it is a serious penalty for any powers were the companion is the primary attacker. Granted having an extra body in the form of a beast companion is a boon in and of it self, but what kind of boon is it? Its greatest benefits are; A) flanking partner, but an extra flanker benefits the whole party; B) an extra body to control if the ranger drops, a boon no doubt, but one that keeps the player involved in the action while waiting for the leader to pick them back up. If it is necessary to nerf the beast companion than remove its ability to move simultaneously with its master (though if doing so it would probably be a good idea allow it to move once per turn as a minor action instead). PLEASE DO NOT NERF ITS ATTACK AND DEFENSE.[/INDENT]
Your Avenger/SM is missing out on damage from his class feature (important damage that supliments his playstyle) and he's using a 1h weapon, further impeding him.
You say he's good, but what at, he's clearly able to avoid damage but what is he actually good at?
The problem is it unbalances things because you have a player who can't be hit except on practically a nature 20 most of the time. Monsters on average get 5 + level to hit. So let's look at those numbers again.
11th level = 35 AC Average 11th level NPC +16 to hit needs 19 21st level = 47 AC Average 21st level NPC +26 to hit needs 20 30th level = 55 AC Average 30th level NPC +35 to hit needs 20
Now to see how this unbalances things make a standard encounter and give one of the monsters an AC where the majority of the players need at least a 19 to hit. And then see if that encounter nearly kills the party.
The reason it unbalances things is because the players will waste attacks on that monster they could of used to hurt other monsters thus weaken the NPC side. They will also have trouble hurting the monster so he could potentially kill them via "Death by a thousand cuts".
If you can't kill a creature it doesn't matter that it does very low comparable damage. That creature will still win because you can't kill it.
Another way to look at it is like this. Let's say the monster hits on 19 so that's 10% of the time. Even if the monster did 100 damage per hit which is just crazy it would have a DPR of 10 which is horrible. Now let's say your facing lvl 30 with 3d8+10 attacks even if you assume they always do full damage of 34 but only hit 10% of the time that is 3.4 DPR. With around 200 HP the Avenger/SwordMage could easily last 50 rounds against 1 monster. He should be able to do enough damage to kill that monster by then even with lower DPR setup.
Or he could go 10 rounds taking on 5 by himself but that is not likely to happen and the point is what other class could last several rounds soloing 5 monsters?
30th level = 55 AC Average 30th level NPC +35 to hit needs 20
The problem isn't with the hybrid rules, but rather with the avenger class itself (or more specifically with the armor of faith class feature). I several weeks back as an intellectual exercise I decided to build a max-defense avenger and got up to 54 AC.
"Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder"Show
ITEMS Amulet of Protection +6, Circlet of Indomitability (paragon tier), Belt of Vim (paragon tier), Boots of Quickness (paragon tier), Magic Voidhide +6, Magic Urgrosh +6
I could have even pushed the AC up to 56, by using elderhide instead of voidhide and by sacrificing WIS for more DEX.
The reason it unbalances things is because the players will waste attacks on that monster they could of used to hurt other monsters thus weaken the NPC side. They will also have trouble hurting the monster so he could potentially kill them via "Death by a thousand cuts".
I think you'll mean the enemy will waste time hitting the Avenger/Swordmage, but you can't say why they'd waste time hitting the Avenger over anyone else in particular.
Its still only his AC defence that's high, and you're worried about 30ths that can't hit him?
Its potent, and the problem is more with Avenger's and their high AC's, if the hybrid bonus was reduced it'd be fairer, and make a lot more sense, but its not a major threat to game balance.
However, Tharag Bocc's suggestion is quite good and would go a long way to solving this issue.
However his Avenger build is still a bit lame, high defences but pathetic otherwise, i'm not sure you'd make it all the way to 30 or even be that useful.
I actually have my own rather radical idea on that.
[INDENT]REMOVE ALL ROLE DEFINING CLASS FEATURES FROM THE DEFAULT HYBRID BUILDS, adding them instead to the list of hybrid talent options (removing the hybrid restrictions) and make the various build defining class features (Brutal Scoundrel/Artful Dodger; Archery Style/Two-Weapon Style) into the default feature all classes get instead.
I have to say, I'd pretty much be 100% against this! As you mention, the main disadvantage is that it shuts down dual-role hybrids - which defeats the entire point of making hybrid classes in the first place! The success at creating a hybrid option which lets characters switch from one role to another throughout the combat, without being the best at either at any given time, is really what makes these rules so amazing! Taking that away would be a terrible idea, in my opinion.
The hybrids need their 'major talents' to make them an actual exercise in having a character capable of functioning as two seperate classes. The key is not to remove that capability - which, again, defeats the entire point of the hybrid design. The key is simply to put measures into place to ensure that can only function as one of those two classes at a given time. Or, as with Paladin, to let them have one class capability always available, but weakened in actual effect.
Yea but part of the problem on that is the avenger was already broken on AC. He could get higher AC then any other class in the game before Hybrid. The hybrid allows him to keep all that armor gaining ability and stack on another class's AC bonuses.
WoTC could fix this bonus stacking by saying these are "Class bonuses" and just like other type bonuses such as feat, item, and etc they do not stack. If they did that the hybrid would only be able to reach the avengers high AC.
Also WoTC needs to errata the Avenger to change his +3 bonus to when unarmed or in cloth armor which will bring his AC back down to where defenders are in AC :P.
Those 2 changes would solve a lot of problems and not require a bunch of errata or rules changes for other areas.
Got to basically agree here. The issue is not so much with the hybrid avenger as the avenger in the first place. Improved Armor of Faith should be a named bonus (armor or feat, really), or simply only work in cloth armor or no armor.
The AC combo's were always going to be a problem, but you do have to be a Racial PP to get double bonuses. Anyone who gets a bonus to AC and can stack it with others is going to be trouble. A Warlock/Warden who gets Bonus AC from Con and Int is going to be trouble, among other options.
I don't think that is actually an issue - all of the classes that let you use a different stat for your AC let you use it *instead* of Dex or Int, not in addition to.
igniz wrote:
Your Avenger/SM is missing out on damage from his class feature (important damage that supliments his playstyle) and he's using a 1h weapon, further impeding him.
You say he's good, but what at, he's clearly able to avoid damage but what is he actually good at?
Don't look at him as an Avenger with crappy damage. Look at him as a Swordmage with pretty much all the important Swordmage abilities and a nigh-untouchable defense. It costs some feats and your paragon path, but you can still be a pretty incredible defender, with enemies having the option of attacking you and missing, or attacking an ally and dealing no damage.
I don't think the Cleric/Warlord thing is that bad. You lose 1 feat and you lose 1 use of a heal per an encounter at level 16+. You also have to deal with worse MAD than if you were just a Warlord. You do gain the versatility of having the two classes and healing word (which is only good if you feed into the MAD). Its not a bad combo, but its not OPed at all.
Yeah, it actually looks like they did bring it into line - Hybrid Talent of Commanding Presence is only once an encounter, which I think is enough to keep the hybrid class strong, but no longer getting pretty much everything a warlord gets plus some extra options.
The hybrids need their 'major talents' to make them an actual exercise in having a character capable of functioning as two seperate classes. The key is not to remove that capability - which, again, defeats the entire point of the hybrid design. The key is simply to put measures into place to ensure that can only function as one of those two classes at a given time. Or, as with Paladin, to let them have one class capability always available, but weakened in actual effect.
We have different views on what he primary function of hybrid should be. For me hybrid is more about being able to play "mixed character" (gaining class features and power from both classes) than actually filling to roles.
In my experience, a character who tries to split time between performing two roles usually just ends up failing at both. For me a character should be focused on a single role (best to leave the other class as a secondary role).
We have different views on what he primary function of hybrid should be. For me hybrid is more about being able to play "mixed character" (gaining class features and power from both classes) than actually filling to roles.
In my experience, a character who tries to split time between performing two roles usually just ends up failing at both. For me a character should be focused on a single role (best to leave the other class as a secondary role).
Except that is the amazing thing about the Hybrid classes - they are able to actually fill each role. They can just only do so for a limited amount of a time. They don't get all the 'perks' of their classes, but they get the core abilities that really define them.
If all you want is powers from different classes, multiclassing gets you there (albeit slowly). And getting lots of little powers for each class seems like a very easy way to end up with someone that has trouble filling any role.
Right now, in general, multiclassing lets you play one class with a smattering of ability of a second class. Eventually, by paragon to epic levels you can have a more even split, but you will almost always be a Cleric with some Fighter ability, or a Fighter with some Cleric ability. Whatever your classes, the multiclassing rules will mean one will typically be primary and one secondary.
Hybrid lets you truly have a character who is both at once. But if you say that my hybrid Cleric/Fighter can either have the ability to heal (Healing Word) or have the ability to mark and defend (Combat Challenge), then suddenly we're right back to being one class with a sprinkle of another.
And that would be an incredible waste of the potential inherent in the hybrid rules.
Its a lot better, but I feel the skills are still underwhelming and we still don't know what happens if we take a PMC, we'd clearly loose an at-will which would upset our balance of at-wills.
You're not restricted (edited below) to one at-will from each class; it just says to pick one from each at first level. So, PMC is fine to switch either one.
The only restriction is placed on encounter/daily powers.
article]However, if you have at least two powers from the same category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, and utility), at least one of those powers must come from each of your hybrid classes
I stand corrected. Hmm, good question. Maybe if they remove at-will from that sentence, it'd b wrote:
However, if you have at least two powers from the same category (at-will attack, encounter attack, daily attack, and utility), at least one of those powers must come from each of your hybrid classes[/quote] I stand corrected. Hmm, good question. Maybe if they remove at-will from that sentence, it'd be fine.
Except that is the amazing thing about the Hybrid classes - they are able to actually fill each role. They can just only do so for a limited amount of a time. They don't get all the 'perks' of their classes, but they get the core abilities that really define them.
That's not been my experience. Playtested them with my friends and no one really managed to get a character that could effectively fill two roles. The best anyone managed was to focus on trying to fill one of the two roles. I've not read anything on these boards that convinces me other wise.
MrMyth wrote:
If all you want is powers from different classes, multiclassing gets you there (albeit slowly). And getting lots of little powers for each class seems like a very easy way to end up with someone that has trouble filling any role.
Right now, in general, multiclassing lets you play one class with a smattering of ability of a second class. Eventually, by paragon to epic levels you can have a more even split, but you will almost always be a Cleric with some Fighter ability, or a Fighter with some Cleric ability. Whatever your classes, the multiclassing rules will mean one will typically be primary and one secondary.
As you said, multi classing is slower. Hybrid makes a mixed character possible from lv.1 and with out eating up 4+ feats and ones paragon path. Careless power selection can of course lead to a bad character, but that's true of hybrid as it stands now, or even normal single class characters.
MrMyth wrote:
Hybrid lets you truly have a character who is both at once. But if you say that my hybrid Cleric/Fighter can either have the ability to heal (Healing Word) or have the ability to mark and defend (Combat Challenge), then suddenly we're right back to being one class with a sprinkle of another.
Even under my variant a hybrid fighter|cleric would have options to optimize their sub-role. If they took combat challenge as their major talent, they could still take select mostly healing powers for thier cleric slts. If they took healing word as their major talent, they could still have combat supremacy and fighter powers that immobilize or knock prone.
Also it seems to me that the currant system is designed far more to prevent shared role hybrids from being superior to to single class characters. Hybrids are prevented from stacking striker damage, or from doubling up on basic healing features (healing/inspiring word). This however results in an awkward design.
It mostly doesn't stop characters from being two different roles at once. A rogue|cleric can sneak attack and still use healing word in the same turn. A rogue|paladin can engage to maintain their divine challenge while still using a rogue power to sneak attack.
Also, It hurts any attempts to stack multiclassing on top of hybrid to create a triple class character. A true rogue can sneak attack with any multiclass power, so long as he uses the appropriate weapon. A hybrid rogue, however, cannot and is instead restricted to sneaking only with rogue powers, mostly to prevent them from stacking the damage with other striker features like warlock's curse or hunter quarry. Even discounting trippleclassing, the inability to sneak attack while charging or making opportunity attacks is still a flaw.
I can see people wanting a way to get full access to hybrid class features. Perhaps a feat that "upgrades" them?
Improved Hybrid Talent Prerequisite: Hybrid class character Benefit: Choose a class feature of one of your classes which you have a hybrid version of. You now have the complete version of that class feature.
Also, as I recall, you can only ever take a particular feat once, no? Therefore, Hybrid Talent (and the hypothetical feat above) should have the following;
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a new hybrid talent.
Also, as I recall, you can only ever take a particular feat once, no? Therefore, Hybrid Talent (and the hypothetical feat above) should have the following;
Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a new hybrid talent.
Hybrid Talent is intended to be taken only once.
I do get that people really want to have access to lots of things from both halves (many Hybrid Talent, the full class features, etc.) But keep in mind that the goal isn't to create better characters than the base classes - if you give them the ability to have everything the base classes have, plus extra stuff from another class, they just become too strong. Even with the feat cost - class features tend to be stronger than feats, and can be combined to especially good effect.
Yeah, it actually looks like they did bring it into line - Hybrid Talent of Commanding Presence is only once an encounter, which I think is enough to keep the hybrid class strong, but no longer getting pretty much everything a warlord gets plus some extra options.
They said that it was a mistake the first time through and that it was supposed to not upgrade all along. I agree that it seems more in line with everything else.
They really need to do something so that attacks gained from something other than one of your two hybrid classes (basic attacks, racial attacks, PP powers from PPs you qualified for based on race or multiclassing) can benefit from things like striker bonus damage or fighter marking. There needs to be a "focused" keyword or the like added to those abilities; abilities with the focused keyword would only apply to powers from that class or PP based on the class. In the event that the power was not from either hybrid class or a PP based on either hybrid class, one focused ability could apply to each use of the power. That way a fighter/ranger could still use its breath weapon to mark or apply quarry damage with an OA.
I suspect that the striker damage is intentional in not allowing basic attacks, because it's not very hard for leaders (especially warlords) to grant you extra attacks.
Imagine having a hybrid ranger/rogue (you sacrifice wisdom, and the rogue never really cared all that much about its secondary stats)... you could Twin Strike on your turn and apply quarry damage... now the warlord goes and and moves into flanking and grants you a basic attack with commander's strike... you make a melee basic (your ranger half means you have high str and don't have to burn a feat on melee training like normal rogues) and apply sneak attack... you can repeat this every round.
Or as others have pointed out, you can pick up minor and immediate action powers to be able to deal striker damage even when using your other hybrid's powers.
I think the fact that the fighter's mark still doesn't trigger on basic attack is a big problem. I can see there being a problem with strikers, and can understand why they would do it, but not allowing fighters to trigger a mark with a basic attack is a big disadvantage.
Also I'm kind of wondering why some of the classes who only have light armor get armor proficiency with another ability and half just get the proficiency as their option. I would understand if it were just the Warden as its a defender class, but since Barbarian gets it too why not Rangers or Druids?
Also I'm kind of wondering why some of the classes who only have light armor get armor proficiency with another ability and half just get the proficiency as their option. I would understand if it were just the Warden as its a defender class, but since Barbarian gets it too why not Rangers or Druids?
Barbarian Agility and Guardian Might are both AC fixes, letting Guardians and Barbarians have decent ACs in light armor despite not having an Int or Dex secondary. Those class abilities are really as much an armor proficiency as the actual armors they can use.
I do get that people really want to have access to lots of things from both halves (many Hybrid Talent, the full class features, etc.) But keep in mind that the goal isn't to create better characters than the base classes - if you give them the ability to have everything the base classes have, plus extra stuff from another class, they just become too strong. Even with the feat cost - class features tend to be stronger than feats, and can be combined to especially good effect.
I agree. Hybrid Talent should not be taken multiple times. Class features are very powerful compared to feats. Also, I think that single classed characters should have certain benefits such as a complete set of full class features.
So as someone who no longer has DDi, could you perhaps inform me as you how they fixed the AC issue of fighter/wizards and similar combinations? (ie. the Fighter stuck in pajamas with no shield).
So as someone who no longer has DDi, could you perhaps inform me as you how they fixed the AC issue of fighter/wizards and similar combinations? (ie. the Fighter stuck in pajamas with no shield).
The Hybrid Talent feat can be used to gain the armor proficiencies of any hybrid class that would normally have something better than leather. A fighter/wizard who wants to spend Hybrid Talent on something else is still stuck in pajamas, but using the feat to get armor proficiencies of the fighter will put the character back in chain and a shield (or, more likely, hide and a shield, considering the int boost to AC).
Barbarian Agility and Guardian Might are both AC fixes, letting Guardians and Barbarians have decent ACs in light armor despite not having an Int or Dex secondary. Those class abilities are really as much an armor proficiency as the actual armors they can use.
I forgot to ask this earlier, but it's something that I really want to know now...as I won't be getting the money for another DDi subscription until this Friday.
Did they switch the method for determining healing surges and what not to Gadren's method (ie just take the hp and surges of the two classes, add them together and then round down)-so that Warlord/Clerics, Rogue/Rangers etc. aren't screwed as far as hit points go?
I am so incredibly pumped for the PHB 3-I'll be able to make a Witchy style character using Feylock hybrided with Druid and the Hexer PP! (Shapeshifting, polymorphing, hexing, and then I'll get the ritual caster feat for some double-double toil and trouble fun.)
I forgot to ask this earlier, but it's something that I really want to know now...as I won't be getting the money for another DDi subscription until this Friday.
Did they switch the method for determining healing surges and what not to Gadren's method (ie just take the hp and surges of the two classes, add them together and then round down)-so that Warlord/Clerics, Rogue/Rangers etc. aren't screwed as far as hit points go?
I am so incredibly pumped for the PHB 3-I'll be able to make a Witchy style character using Feylock hybrided with Druid and the Hexer PP! (Shapeshifting, polymorphing, hexing, and then I'll get the ritual caster feat for some double-double toil and trouble fun.)
They've done half hit points in this if that's what you mean. So some classes get 3.5 HP for example.
check out the build that took me 10 mins to in max...
I'm failing to understand where you're getting some of your numbers from. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just need it explained more for me because assumptions your making need to be spelt out for me
GMforPowergamers wrote:
11th level (+3 hide)+6 (Int 21)+5
Not important for level 11, but I fail to see how you're getting 21 at level 11 with only putting 16 points into INT.
GMforPowergamers wrote:
20 Fort 24 Ref 25 Will
With beginning stats of 12 for STR and CON, you'll need to increase both at level 4 and level 8. Int being at 18 can only get increased to 20. Therefore: FORT: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (CON 13)+1 (Class boost)+1 (Feat)+1 = 18 REFL: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (INT 20)+5 (Feat)+1 = 21 WILL: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (WIS 18)+4 (Class boost)+1 (Feat)+1 = 21
I'm sure there's ways you've gotten your increased defences, I just need to be explained how you got them
I've made a pure level 11 Swordmage with 33 AC with only 1 feat dedicated to boosting my AC. I'll post it to compare the pros and cons with your hybrid, once someone can explain how you're getting the things I mention I can't compare my Swordmage with your hybrid without knowing how you're doing half the things you are because if you can boost your Fort, Reflex, Wills beyond what I mention above, perhaps my swordmage can as well
[EDIT]: Re: Int improving weirdness. I see the character builder does the same thing, so while I'm sure there's a good reason for it, I'm flabbergasted as to what it is. [EDIT 2]: I see what's happening. Whenever you climb a tier all your ability scores get plus 1. If someone could tell me where that's documented I'd be very happy I have yet to reach Paragon Tier so I'd like to see what else I don't know about it
[EDIT 2]: I see what's happening. Whenever you climb a tier all your ability scores get plus 1. If someone could tell me where that's documented I'd be very happy I have yet to reach Paragon Tier so I'd like to see what else I don't know about it
PHB1 pg. 27. It's under Gaining Levels, Step by Step, 1: Ability Scores.
I'm failing to understand where you're getting some of your numbers from. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just need it explained more for me because assumptions your making need to be spelt out for me
Not important for level 11, but I fail to see how you're getting 21 at level 11 with only putting 16 points into INT.
With beginning stats of 12 for STR and CON, you'll need to increase both at level 4 and level 8. Int being at 18 can only get increased to 20. Therefore: FORT: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (CON 13)+1 (Class boost)+1 (Feat)+1 = 18 REFL: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (INT 20)+5 (Feat)+1 = 21 WILL: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (WIS 18)+4 (Class boost)+1 (Feat)+1 = 21
I'm sure there's ways you've gotten your increased defences, I just need to be explained how you got them
I've made a pure level 11 Swordmage with 33 AC with only 1 feat dedicated to boosting my AC. I'll post it to compare the pros and cons with your hybrid, once someone can explain how you're getting the things I mention I can't compare my Swordmage with your hybrid without knowing how you're doing half the things you are because if you can boost your Fort, Reflex, Wills beyond what I mention above, perhaps my swordmage can as well
[EDIT]: Re: Int improving weirdness. I see the character builder does the same thing, so while I'm sure there's a good reason for it, I'm flabbergasted as to what it is. [EDIT 2]: I see what's happening. Whenever you climb a tier all your ability scores get plus 1. If someone could tell me where that's documented I'd be very happy I have yet to reach Paragon Tier so I'd like to see what else I don't know about it
I don't know what numbers you are all referring to but I can try to answer some of the issues I think you might be having.
First off if you have 18 INT to start then you do reach 21 INT when you hit level 11. Because all stats increase by 1 when you reach a new tier. This could also be the cause of the NAD defense increase you see. If the stat goes up in modifier it will increase.
As for other sources of increase there are 3 items one for each tier that increase each NAD. Circlet of Indomitability , Belt of Vim , Boots of Quickness.
Improved armor of faith increases AC bonus each tier making it the most powerful AC boosting feat. 1 Feat = +3 AC by Epic tier. Add on his default +3 bonus and the Avenger has a +6 bonus to AC above other classes without much effort by 21st level since he has all the same armor boosting options other classes do.
As for other sources of increase there are 3 items one for each tier that increase each NAD. Circlet of Indomitability , Belt of Vim , Boots of Quickness.
Thanks. That's the missing information I needed. Although it seems somewhat unrealistic to expect an 18th level item at 11th level. But it does seem to account for the boost.
igniz wrote:
Your Avenger/SM is missing out on damage from his class feature (important damage that supliments his playstyle) and he's using a 1h weapon, further impeding him.
That makes him a subpar Avenger, but it doesn't effect his status as a Swordmage at all.
igniz wrote:
You say he's good, but what at, he's clearly able to avoid damage but what is he actually good at?
Here's a swordmage I made to compare. Best Swordmage I Know How to MakeShow
Tiefling Swordmage
Base Scores: STR 12 CON 12 DEX 8 INT 18 WIS 10 CHA 12
+2 to INT and CHA from being a tiefling. +2 to Will for being a swordmage
30th Level AC: 48 = (Base)+10 (1/2 lvl)+15 (Int 28)+9 (class)+3 (gsw)+2 (+6 hide)+9 35 Fort, 39 Reflex, 35 Will | HP 209 | HS 13 [/SBLOCK] The hybrid will only ever be behind the straight swordmage in HP by about 5 or so points with only a couple of less healing surges. The swordmage's attack bonus is about +16 (using a +3 weapon) while the hybrid's bonus is +15.
So these are the costs of getting a +5 to +7 bonus to AC: * Costs 1 feat. * You sacrifice a paragon path * You lose a +1 to your attack rolls. * You lose a +1 to your damage rolls. * Half your powers will be striker powers.
Do people think those costs are reasonable to create a swordmage/avenger hybrid? Or do you think they're insignificant enough to cause everyone who wants to play a swordmage, to instead go hybrid?
Do people think those costs are reasonable to create a swordmage/avenger hybrid? Or do you think they're insignificant enough to cause everyone who wants to play a swordmage, to instead go hybrid?
Honestly I think it will come down more to personal preference. But the level 30 swordmage with 48 AC is actually typical max defender AC. Many defender builds trying to max out AC all seem to hit about 48 so it was considered to be the intended upper limit on AC.
Then along comes a STRIKER who can reach 54 AC blowing all defenders out of the water. Honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see a ton of Avenger hybrids since the example in question is mainly drawing it's bonus from the Avenger side and not the Swordmage side. And I still don't understand why WoTC doesn't errata the avenger.
Honestly I think it will come down more to personal preference. But the level 30 swordmage with 48 AC is actually typical max defender AC. Many defender builds trying to max out AC all seem to hit about 48 so it was considered to be the intended upper limit on AC.
Then along comes a STRIKER who can reach 54 AC blowing all defenders out of the water.
Interesting, thanks. I don't follow much on different builds and whatnot, so I don't know what the norm is.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
Honestly I wouldn't be surprised to see a ton of Avenger hybrids
Which makes me hesitant to allow hybrids. I suppose I could say "all hybrids are allowed, except for avenger ones" but I'm unsure if that would be met particularly favourable among my players.
I'd prefer the avenger/anything else combination be nerfed (changing AC bonuses from untyped to a class bonus would alleviate many of the avenger/something else hybrids).
An alternative could be to simply make the errata myself, but I'm hesitant to in case WotC makes a different nerf 5 months down the line.
PyroMancer2k wrote:
And I still don't understand why WoTC doesn't errata the avenger.
Armor: Armor proficiencies are still a mess. Hybrid Talent is such a critical feat needed by some hybrids to even function, that using it for Armor proficiencies is a gigantic waste. There needs to be a better way for characters to regain them. Frankly, I'll probably just house rule Armor proficiencies to work like Weapon Proficiencies. A Wizard in chainmail is far less a problem to game balance than a Fighter in cloth.
Skills: Why do hybrids get one less skill exactly? This just seems like making them inferior to normal classes for the sake of making them inferior to normal classes.
Healing Word/Song/Inspiring Word: Staying at once an encounter for the entire life of the character doesn't feel like enough actual healing power to perform as a leader. The previous version of it, that upgraded to twice an encounter at lv 16, struck a better middle ground between being not as powerful as a full leader but still able to perform as the group's main healer if required.
Wizards: They really need their spell book as a base feature. Getting just Cantrips is... rather underwelming compared to what some other hybrids get.
Fighters: Combat Challenge should at least work for basic attacks as well as fighter powers... hell, personally I think it should work with everything (Marking with AoE's is one of the only useful abilities multiclassing into wizard gives a fighter after all) but I can see how that could be a giant mess.
Which makes me hesitant to allow hybrids. I suppose I could say "all hybrids are allowed, except for avenger ones" but I'm unsure if that would be met particularly favourable among my players.
I'd prefer the avenger/anything else combination be nerfed (changing AC bonuses from untyped to a class bonus would alleviate many of the avenger/something else hybrids).
An alternative could be to simply make the errata myself, but I'm hesitant to in case WotC makes a different nerf 5 months down the line.
Personally I would say do a local errata cause you probably don't wanna ban a whole class. And the errata is actually fairly simple. And here it is.
Errata 1: Armor of Faith While you are wearing cloth armor or no armor and aren't using a shield, you gain a +3 bonus to AC.
Errata 2: Improved Armor of Faith Remove - Bonus increase to +2 at 11th and +3 at 21st level. Replace with - Bonus increase to +2 at 21st level.
Now here is the reasoning behind the 2 changes. The first one only makes senses cause the +3 currently stacks on top of light armor such has hide so you get (+Hide +Dex +AoF). This one change also removed the chance of armor specialization for a grand total of 4 AC points dropping him from 54 to 50 max a much more reasonable level.
The second change is kinda a copy of Greater Swordmage warding. Though it could just as easily be changed to match Improved Swordmage ward which is a static +1 that doesn't increase which I'm actually a little more in favor of. The reason is skimming through the feats the Avenger also has a TON of conditional feats that increase AC when things like he charges his oath, his oath is next to him, and etc.
So depending on if you limit the second errata to +1 or allow it to increase to +2 at epic the total Avenger AC will be 48-49 with these 2 simple errata. Bringing him more in line with defenders. Cause after all you need to keep in mind the avenger is a STRIKER not a defender and he even has defender HP as well. These changes only bring him down to the level of defender in AC not his fellow strikers.
mrsake]Wizards: They really need their spell book as a base feature. Getting just Cantrips is... rather underwelming compared to what some other hybrids get.
I agree that cantrips are less powerful than other features, and yet... I dunno. I don't think I'd spend my Hybrid Talent feat to get cantrips. However, I'd be perfectly happy having just cantrips and investing my Hybrid Talent on another class's features altogether. Having the cantrips really makes the wizard "wizardy" wrote:
Wizards: They really need their spell book as a base feature. Getting just Cantrips is... rather underwelming compared to what some other hybrids get.[/quote] I agree that cantrips are less powerful than other features, and yet... I dunno. I don't think I'd spend my Hybrid Talent feat to get cantrips. However, I'd be perfectly happy having just cantrips and investing my Hybrid Talent on another class's features altogether. Having the cantrips really makes the wizard "wizardy" to me.
I agree that cantrips are less powerful than other features, and yet... I dunno. I don't think I'd spend my Hybrid Talent feat to get cantrips. However, I'd be perfectly happy having just cantrips and investing my Hybrid Talent on another class's features altogether. Having the cantrips really makes the wizard "wizardy" to me.
I think the issue is that the wizard only really has one class feature of significant power (Arcane Implement Mastery). In addition, it has three essentially lesser class features: Cantrips, Spellbook, and its Ritual Casting.
If the hybrid gave them Arcane Implement Mastery by default, it would be simply too strong - I imagine many people, interested in raw power, would gladly trade Cantrips, Spellbook and Ritual Casting for access to another class and whatever goodies they can get through Hybrid Talent (since they don't need to spend it on wizard stuff.)
So the hybrid gives one of the smaller ones instead (Cantrips) and allows Arcane Implement Mastery through Hybrid Talent. This does seem less than most classes get - but what are the other options? Say they gave Spellbook as well, figuring that two smaller features are about equal to what other classes get.
But that means a hybrid wizard who takes Hybrid Talent (for Arcane Implement Mastery) and Ritual Casting (the feat itself) has 95% of what a wizard normally has. He's down two feats and the ability to learn some rituals for free, and in return, he gets access to an entire second class of options and abilities. Plus, most likely, a significant boost in hitpoints, surges, weapon proficiencies...
Playing a standard wizard suddenly seems like a much weaker option.
So I think they took about the best approach they could - the strength if the wizard, really, is in its powers more than anything. Getting access to them is what you largely get from hybrid classing - with the ability to pick up the most potent class feature via Hybrid Talent. I don't see it as a fantastic solution... but I just don't see any better ones on the table.
The latest version of hybrid characters did address some of the issues players had. Here is my first impressions of the changes:
Armour Proficiencies
The biggest concern was combining a front line class with a back row class. The lost of armour proficiencies makes this such a problem and there are just too high a feat cost to make up for it initially. Now, you can regain all armour proficiencies with the hybrid talent feat. You have to weigh whether it is better to take a class feature or the armour proficiencies. I like this tradeoff. For some combos, players can simply take regular armour proficiencies. For others this is the best route.
Hit points and Healing Surges
I guess it's OK to use fractions afterall. One hp per level for striker-striker (and builds with similar hit points) is such a big issue that it is not worth simplifying with whole numbers. The only fraction is 1/2 after all. I think this makes everyone happy.
More Specific Options with Hybrid Talent
I think most people saw this coming when they looked at the Sorcerer and its one class feature. Not all class features are the same. Some class features that you could take with this feat needed a hybrid version like that of the Warlord. Also, some class features are not availble or simply redundant because some regular feats do the same.
Hybrid Paragon Path
I think this is a good way to allow players to get Hybrid Talent twice. It feels like paragon multiclassing in terms of what you give up and what you gain. I think this is a bit stronger than PMC in that class features are generally better than an at-will. For combos that really need to take Hybrid Talent early to gain armour proficiencies, waiting until paragon is the only way to gain that all important class feature. It may be too long a wait for some players. There is some discussion here about high AC builds. It seems that the Swordmage-Avenger hybrid that uses HT to gain extremely high AC would go this route.
My feeling regarding the Hybrid PP is that the second HT feat you gain should be from a class different than the class feature you took your first HT feat. However, I'm OK without this restriction.
I also think that there should be wording that if you did not take the HT feat and then choose the Hybrid PP, you can at a later time still take the HT feat. I think this is a minor issue and most DM's will probably not strictly enforce this.
The HC update does not really affect the one player in my group who plays a hybrid character. However, another campaign that is set to start up has a player who multiclasses as a paladin/warlock. The armour issue has been resolved in this latest version of HC and he may decide to play as a hybrid paladin-warlock now.
ISSUE #2: Don't nerf the hybrid beast companion. The companion is naturaly the single most defining aspect of the beast masters, nerfing it is a serious penalty for any powers were the companion is the primary attacker. Granted having an extra body in the form of a beast companion is a boon in and of it self, but what kind of boon is it? Its greatest benefits are; A) flanking partner, but an extra flanker benefits the whole party; B) an extra body to control if the ranger drops, a boon no doubt, but one that keeps the player involved in the action while waiting for the leader to pick them back up. If it is necessary to nerf the beast companion than remove its ability to move simultaneously with its master (though if doing so it would probably be a good idea allow it to move once per turn as a minor action instead). PLEASE DO NOT NERF ITS ATTACK AND DEFENSE.
I actually foresaw this happening, at least the companion being nerfed. The reason is because part of having a beast companion is giving up Prime Shot. So something had to be taken away from the beast companion, since Hybrid Rangers do not get Prime Shot (unless they spend feat). Lowering attack and defenses is fine, except for the first few levels. By the time you get to about level 4 or 5 they should be decent. The great thing is since its a feat, you don't have to start with a companion, you can pick one up after you get those initial levels out of the way. I'm not sure what other ways they could have weakened the companions without causing problems.
Adjusting movement would not work too well. Not allowing it to move at the same time as yourself, means you and the pet effectively move at half speed. Too many classes need their minor actions, let alone the Ranger needs his minor action to quarry, and only allowing it once per turn, means your pet moves at half your speed effectively all the time.
I'm failing to understand where you're getting some of your numbers from. I'm not saying you're wrong, I just need it explained more for me because assumptions your making need to be spelt out for me
Not important for level 11, but I fail to see how you're getting 21 at level 11 with only putting 16 points into INT.
+2 race brings my 16 Int and Wis both to 18
With beginning stats of 12 for STR and CON, you'll need to increase both at level 4 and level 8. Int being at 18 can only get increased to 20. Therefore: FORT: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (CON 13)+1 (Class boost)+1 (Feat)+1 = 18 REFL: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (INT 20)+5 (Feat)+1 = 21 WILL: (Base)+10 (Half Level)+5 (WIS 18)+4 (Class boost)+1 (Feat)+1 = 21
+3 neck item
I'm sure there's ways you've gotten your increased defences, I just need to be explained how you got them
[EDIT]: Re: Int improving weirdness. I see the character builder does the same thing, so while I'm sure there's a good reason for it, I'm flabbergasted as to what it is. [EDIT 2]: I see what's happening. Whenever you climb a tier all your ability scores get plus 1. If someone could tell me where that's documented I'd be very happy I have yet to reach Paragon Tier so I'd like to see what else I don't know about it
PHB1 under level chart say at 11 +1 all stats
[quote author=57850618 post=363359505]The problem with CharOp is it fails miserably in a lot of cases to take in versatility as a factor. It's just about TEH DPPPPPPRRRRZ. Not durability, dpr, skills etc.[/quote]
I actually foresaw this happening, at least the companion being nerfed. The reason is because part of having a beast companion is giving up Prime Shot. So something had to be taken away from the beast companion, since Hybrid Rangers do not get Prime Shot (unless they spend feat). Lowering attack and defenses is fine, except for the first few levels. By the time you get to about level 4 or 5 they should be decent. The great thing is since its a feat, you don't have to start with a companion, you can pick one up after you get those initial levels out of the way. I'm not sure what other ways they could have weakened the companions without causing problems.
The problem is powers where the beast companion is the primary or even only attacker. No other hybrid has to contend with an arbitrary -1 penalty to attack roles, so why should beast masters have to? The -1 to all defenses might be okay (still don't like it), but the penalty to attack is overkill.
The problem is powers where the beast companion is the primary or even only attacker. No other hybrid has to contend with an arbitrary -1 penalty to attack roles, so why should beast masters have to? The -1 to all defenses might be okay (still don't like it), but the penalty to attack is overkill.
A -1 to attacks with powers without the beast keyword might also work, giving a penalty to OAs or charges that the beast may make but not to ranger powers that involve the beast.
While the -1 to attack and defenses for beast companions isn't an ideal fix, it does compensate both for the fact that the Ranger get's prime shot, and for the fact that there are a huge number of classes that can very easily use a flanking buddy to great effect. Hybrid Ranger/Rogue anyone?
Personally, what I'm really excited about is that we'll hopefully get some more hybrid feats that focus on the interaction between different classes.
Additionally, something I think would be interesting would be to compare how an PMC'd character compares to a level 11 PHC character of the same class, race, ability scores and build. We could do comparisons at 11th level, 21st level and 30th level, and determine the strengths and weaknesses of the system from there.
Or he could go 10 rounds taking on 5 by himself but that is not likely to happen and the point is what other class could last several rounds soloing 5 monsters?
Armor: Armor proficiencies are still a mess. Hybrid Talent is such a critical feat needed by some hybrids to even function, that using it for Armor proficiencies is a gigantic waste. There needs to be a better way for characters to regain them. Frankly, I'll probably just house rule Armor proficiencies to work like Weapon Proficiencies. A Wizard in chainmail is far less a problem to game balance than a Fighter in cloth.
Clearly, having heavy armours is more important to some characters than others. A Fighter/Wizard has his Int to AC already, take leather after that and you'll be fine.
I think the dilema's a good one, but what's more problematic is the imbalance in talents and features.
Skills: Why do hybrids get one less skill exactly? This just seems like making them inferior to normal classes for the sake of making them inferior to normal classes.
I agree with this, 3 is just too low.
Healing Word/Song/Inspiring Word: Staying at once an encounter for the entire life of the character doesn't feel like enough actual healing power to perform as a leader. The previous version of it, that upgraded to twice an encounter at lv 16, struck a better middle ground between being not as powerful as a full leader but still able to perform as the group's main healer if required.
You're not meant to be a full on Leader, and if you pick two hybrids with a healing power you'd get the same effect anyway.
Wizards: They really need their spell book as a base feature. Getting just Cantrips is... rather underwelming compared to what some other hybrids get.
Disagree
There's a good reason Wizards don't get their Rituals or Spellbooks, implement mastery is a good sacrifice.
Fighters: Combat Challenge should at least work for basic attacks as well as fighter powers... hell, personally I think it should work with everything (Marking with AoE's is one of the only useful abilities multiclassing into wizard gives a fighter after all) but I can see how that could be a giant mess.
I don't see the problem with being inable to mark with Basic attacks? Can someone exmplain why its so needed?
Healing Word/Song/Inspiring Word: Staying at once an encounter for the entire life of the character doesn't feel like enough actual healing power to perform as a leader. The previous version of it, that upgraded to twice an encounter at lv 16, struck a better middle ground between being not as powerful as a full leader but still able to perform as the group's main healer if required.
The old hybrid Warlord Inspiring Word power was not supposed to upgrade to 2 per encounter. One of the developers said that was an error and they fixed it in the latest version. If you upgrade it to twice per encounter, then a leader-leader hybrid will have superior healing to a single classed leader at level 16. Not only do you have Word powers 4 times per encounter, you can use two of them in the same round. A single classed leader will only have 3 per encounter and can only use 1 per round. A hybrid leader-leader should not be better than a single class leader in this respect.
Fighters: Combat Challenge should at least work for basic attacks as well as fighter powers... hell, personally I think it should work with everything (Marking with AoE's is one of the only useful abilities multiclassing into wizard gives a fighter after all) but I can see how that could be a giant mess.
If you want to mark with AoE's, there already is the multiclass option to do that. Hybrids should give different benefits and already gives different benefits. A fighter-wizard hybrid can already use at-wills from both classes as at-wills. A fighter/wizard MC can multi-mark with a wizard at-will AoE, but only can use the AoE at-will as an encounter power. Depending on what benefits you want, you choose either hybrid or MC.
Skills: Why do hybrids get one less skill exactly? This just seems like making them inferior to normal classes for the sake of making them inferior to normal classes.
One less than what? There are classes that get only 3 skills, and most only choose 3 with a fourth chosen for them. It'd be pretty odd if fighter|barbarians started with more skills than either base class. It does seem odd to me that classes that automatically get Religion, Arcana, or Nature don't automatically get it in hybrid form, though; having a cleric|paladin without religion isn't something that seems it should be possible. You can still reach 6 skills (same as a rogue) with a rogue|ranger or rogue|bard.
I’ve been discussing the article with my D&D group and we’re generally pleased with where the rules are heading. I just wanted to summarize what we see as our main issues.
Keep in mind these are just our opinions and I welcome any honest comments.
1) HYBRID DEFENDERS
As I see it, the defender has three core aspects associated with their group role:
[INDENT] a) Redirecting Damage – (The ability to mark targets) b) Damage Avoidance - (Higher defense values) c) Damage Soaking/Mitigation – (Higher HP, Utility Powers)[/INDENT]
Although the hybrid defender classes retain most of these aspects, they seem to suffer from lower defense values. (More specifically AC and if a shield is missing +1 or 2 to Reflex)
Here are some AC comparisons of suggested hybrid builds from the article versus their parent defender classes:
Paladin/Cleric (Chain) – Down possible 4 AC vs. Plate/HS
Fighter/Barbarian (Hide) – Down possible 6 AC vs. Scale/HS
Fighter/Warden (Hide/Heavy Shield) – Down possible 4 AC vs. Scale/HS
Swordmage/Wizard (Cloth) – Down 6 AC vs. Hide and Warding
Warden/Cleric (Chain) – Down at least 6 AC vs. Hide/HS + Alternate AC Stat (Assuming at least a ability score of 24 at Epic Tier)
These lower AC values seem like they would significantly impair the hybrid defender’s ability to avoid damage. It seems like most hybrid defenders are forced into taking the Armor Proficiency option as their hybrid talent in order to function effectively.
A hybrid class should still be effective in a group in fulfilling their class role, and essentially giving up the Hybrid Talent seems like a fairly steep price in order to do so.
I feel this issue also applies to class features that were intended to replace or supplement the defenders armor such as the Swordmages’ Warding and the Warden’s alternate ability score for AC.
2) CLASS POWER DEPENDENT FEATURES
Several of the class features from the hybrid lists now work only when used in conjunction with powers from that specific hybrid class.
[INDENT]For example:
The rogue hybrid sneak attack damage may only be applied when used with Rogue Attack powers
A couple issues in this regard:
In order perform both your class roles; you have to multitask/alternate between powers from both of your hybrid classes.
To consistently apply your sneak damage ability (and function as a Striker) you would have to focus your power selection on Rogue attack powers.
[/INDENT]
To me, this still feels like multi-classing, instead of a true hybridizing of the class features.
If you have to select to the majority of your powers from the Striker class (with a minimal amount from your other class) in order to be effective as Striker, you are in effect a multi-class Striker with a couple extra feats and the majority of your class features missing.
This seems in opposition to the benefits of hybridizing a character as it effectively limits your choices. Hybridizing should give your character increased freedom and versatility when mixing two classes at the cost of overall power (as compared to multi-classing).
This issue seems most obvious when looking at the hybrid Fighter as it seems to be the only hybrid defender whose marking ability is restricted to their parent classes’ attack powers.
3) FEATURE BALANCE
The hybrid class features given to some classes seem underpowered / overpowered depending on the case. The hybrid version of a class should not be just as effective as the pure class without making significant sacrifices. Likewise, the hybrid class should have enough tools to be able fill its role effectively.
A couple observations regarding the hybrid classes:
Barbarian
Rampage seems underwhelming as the hybrid Barbarian’s class defining feature. Rage Strike (At one use per day) seems like a more appropriate fit.
Bard
Skill Versatility seems underpowered as a defining ‘Leader’ ability when compared to the Cleric and Warlord features. Song of Rest seems like a much better fit.
Invoker
Giving the Invoker their Covenant Manifestation feature seems much too close to the pure Invoker. (Also taking into consideration that the Wizard only has the Cantrips class feature). Giving up Ritual Casting and Channel Divinity seems like a small price to pay for being able to hybridize.
Shaman
Similar to the Bard, the Speak with Spirits ability doesn’t feel like the classes’ defining Leader ability. The Spirit Boon feature from the Companion Spirit Option seems like a better fit.
Channel Divinity
It seems unnecessary to create a hybrid version of this feature. The strength of the feature seemed to be in the Channel Divinity feats themselves and does not seem overpowered in its full form, especially in comparison with most of the Divine classes’ other features.
These lower AC values seem like they would significantly impair the hybrid defender’s ability to avoid damage. It seems like most hybrid defenders are forced into taking the Armor Proficiency option as their hybrid talent in order to function effectively.
I agree that hybrid defenders who want to function as a defender often and effectively does need to take the Armour Proficiencies using Hybrid Talent. The alternative is to not be much of a defender until you can get a few feats to improve your AC. Depending on your other hybrid class (and how you envision your character), using Hybrid Talent for the Armour may be a reasonable course of action. One player in my group chose this route because he valued having higher defences over other class features.
A hybrid class should still be effective in a group in fulfilling their class role, and essentially giving up the Hybrid Talent seems like a fairly steep price in order to do so.
...
To me, this still feels like multi-classing, instead of a true hybridizing of the class features.
If you have to select to the majority of your powers from the Striker class (with a minimal amount from your other class) in order to be effective as Striker, you are in effect a multi-class Striker with a couple extra feats and the majority of your class features missing.
This seems in opposition to the benefits of hybridizing a character as it effectively limits your choices. Hybridizing should give your character increased freedom and versatility when mixing two classes at the cost of overall power (as compared to multi-classing).
This issue seems most obvious when looking at the hybrid Fighter as it seems to be the only hybrid defender whose marking ability is restricted to their parent classes’ attack powers.
You have much higher expectations on what hybrid characters can do than I. The hybrid article actually states that a hybrid character is not able to be as effective in a role as a single classed character and likely will only be able to do so temporarily. A single-classed striker is going to be a more effective striker than a hybrid striker-non-striker. Still the hybrid striker-non-striker is going to be more effective as a striker than a single-classed non-striker.
If you select the majority of powers from one of your roles because you want to be better at that, you obviously will be more effective in that role than the other. This is the same as multiclassing where the majority of your abilities is from the class you started with.
My impression of hybrid characters is that you have the flexibility of functioning as one class or the other, but not necessarily together. The fighter-wizard hybrid can be a controller with his wizard abilities or a defender with defender abilities, but not quite together. The multiclass fighter/wizard can combine marking and wizard AoE's together. The limitation is the availability of either your marking to once per encounter or limits of wizard powers available depending on whether your start as a fighter or wizard. There are certain exceptions, but this is my impression of how different hybrid and multiclassing combines two classes.
You have much higher expectations on what hybrid characters can do than I. The hybrid article actually states that a hybrid character is not able to be as effective in a role as a single classed character and likely will only be able to do so temporarily. A single-classed striker is going to be a more effective striker than a hybrid striker-non-striker.
I totally agree with you on this point. I didn’t mean to imply that a hybrid character should be as effective in a role as a single classed character just that should still be somewhat effective in that role.
I’m not suggesting that these restrictions be removed completely without some other compensating factor introduced to reduce the overall effectiveness of the ability. I do feel there however that there are other ways of doing this other than introducing a class dependency.
Looking at the hybrid defenders for example: The Paladin, Warden and Swordmage all have hybrid versions of their marking abilities that aren’t as effective as the full versions of these features but still perform their function quite well without having any dependency on class. The Fighter however is restricted to using this in conjunction with Fighter attack powers which seems extremely limiting in comparison to the other hybrid defenders.
I don’t see why the same approach taken with the three defenders mentioned above couldn’t be applied to the Fighter and Striker abilities as well. Reduce the overall effectiveness of the ability without narrowing the players’ choices.
Stuntman wrote:
My impression of hybrid characters is that you have the flexibility of functioning as one class or the other, but not necessarily together. The fighter-wizard hybrid can be a controller with his wizard abilities or a defender with defender abilities, but not quite together.
All other hybrid defenders seem to be able to do this however.
Here are some semi-random example combinations for the other defenders: All of these combinations seem to be able to maintain a mark every round regardless of power selection and still perform their alternate role (Whether that be an attack or not, although I won’t reiterate about Strikers here).
Defender/Leader:
Paladin/Bard
Warden/Cleric
Swordmage/Artificer (Although it’s not out yet)
Defender/Striker:
Paladin/Warlock
Warden/Ranger
Swordmage/Barbarian
Defender/Controller:
Paladin/Invoker
Warden/Druid
Swordmage/Wizard
Here are just a few ideas regarding possible solutions and i'm sure there are many more possibilities.
Fighter – Combat Challenge
The maximum number of targets marked could be limited to one similar to the Warden.
The ability could be used a minor action after you attack a target instead of a free action.
The extra damage is instead a flat +2 damage per dice that would have rolled for their extra damage. (Edited)
Change the ability name so that the feats that increase the damage to d8’s cannot be taken
Sorcerer – Sorcerous Power
Halve the extra damage granted by this ability (Edited)
Avenger – Oath of Enmity
Reduce the size of the weapon’s damage dice by one size when using this power
If anyone is interested, i've posted a custom version of the rules that my group is thinking of playtesting in the 'Organized Hybrid Playtest Feedback 2.0' thread here:
There needs to be a change to the rules so that at the very least, fighters can mark with their basic attacks (this should include a proviso that it does not include powers that may be used as basic attacks). Ideally, this solution should also allow fighters to mark using non-class specific PP powers (like racial PPs and role-based ones). It may be a little bit wordy, but:
A fighter may only mark using fighter class powers, actual basic attacks, and powers gained from non-class specific paragon paths.
Then translate that into the class-specific damage abilities for strikers.
Then put this general rule into place:
If at any point, two hybrid features could apply their effects to the same attack or power, only one (players choice) takes effect.
This would mean that Fighter l Whatevers would be able to mark using ranged basic attacks (to actually have an effect on flying creatures), and would be able to mark on a charge. Does anyone see anything wrong with this proposal?
Change the ability name so that the feats that increase the damage to d8’s cannot be taken
Sorcerer – Sorcerous Power
Remove the scaling of the extra damage according to level
Avenger – Oath of Enmity
Reduce the size of the weapon’s damage dice by one size when using this power
I like your suggestion with the fighter's marking ability. I like that you are able to mark with any power, but limit it to one target only. It makes the limitation similar to the Warden's marking ability. I think that the fighter should be able to mark without having to use the minor action. This will make it easier for the fighter to use stances in the same turn he marks. Also, perhaps allow the fighter to end an existing mark gained from Combat Challenge if he wants to use CC to mark a different target. The tradeoff is that you can no longer mark multiple enemies. The fighter does have a number of powers that target multiple enemies.
I'm not sure which one is better. So far, the fighter in my group only marks one target at a time. He hasn't had a great need so far to mark with a basic attack. I think it may have happened only once so far. Even with a warlord, I do not recall him attacking multiple targets in a round. Although I do like your suggestion, I'm not convinced that it is better than the existing rules. Different groups may have different experiences.
I understand what you are trying to do with the striker extra damage. Still a d4 is more than 1/2 of a d6. The avenger fix is also a little clunky. The math with the avenger is tricky because of the double attack roll. You can't exactly say half damage. Ideally, if you have a striker-striker hybrid, it should deal no more than the extra damage from a single classed striker.
A simple example is the ranger-warlock. Both do d6 damage. Ideally a ranger-warlock should deal no more extra damage (normally) than a single classed ranger or warlock. For these classes, you can just say the extra damage is 1/2 (rounded down). That way you can use feats that increase your HQ damage and it will still work out OK. My feeling is that the d6/2 and d6/2 just looks clunky. Also, this rule is difficult to extend to the avenger class.
There is a number of people who do not like the fact that the extra striker damage is limited to powers of the class. I personally feel that it is OK from what I have seen with the ranger-wizard hybrid in my game. When this player wants to deal a lot of damage to one target, he would use his ranger powers and HQ. When he wants to damage multiple targets, he uses his wizard scorching burst. Having the option to do either of this is already a benefit. Even if the extra damage from HQ is reduced, I feel it is not necessary to allow HQ damage with a wizard power. Also reducing the HQ damage would actually downgrade the striker half of this particular hybrid.
Regardless, these are just my opinions on the matter and i want to thank you for replying to my post with good and honest critique.
I’m not suggesting that these restrictions be removed completely without some other compensating factor introduced to reduce the overall effectiveness of the ability. I do feel there however that there are other ways of doing this other than introducing a class dependency.
(...) I don’t see why the same approach taken with the three defenders mentioned above couldn’t be applied to the Fighter and Striker abilities as well. Reduce the overall effectiveness of the ability without narrowing the players’ choices.
Oddly, I was thinking in the opposite approach. I really like the idea of getting class features that are as strong as the original, at the cost of restrictions in use. I think that switching back and forth between class abilities, or even between roles adds very interesting strategic decisions. It's also safer, from a balance point of view, as it won't be as easy to come up with hybrid builds outperforming single class characters (though some Ranger/rogue builds exploiting minor action attacks worry me a bit).
Take the hybrid paladin's divine challenge, for example, since it's one of the features I'd like to see changed the most. They add the cost of an immediate reaction, which is only fair, to prevent defender marks stacking. But they are also reducing damage dealt, further reducing the deterrent aspect of the mark. I had already seen DC often ignored by monsters, so lowering the damage can only weaken a hybrid paladin's ability to defend. On the other hand, the major selling point of hybrid DC is its interaction with ranged classes, starting at the classic Eyebiting Warlock. This works great, and you can make an striker better at that role by adding this defender ability. I just don't like that.
I'd rather have a full feature half of the time than an 'always on' halved feature. Particularly when halving something is far from trivial, and will likely result in something underpowered or overpowered. I understand that some people will disagree - this is just my point of view.
For the record, this is how I'd like Divine Challenge to be: - Trigger the damage as an immediate reaction - Full damage - At the end of your turn, if you haven't used a Paladin attack power, the mark ends
My feeling is that the d6/2 and d6/2 just looks clunky. Also, this rule is difficult to extend to the avenger class.
That was my feeling as well. That's why I was thinking d4's to keep it simple, but as you said, the problem is that a hybrid Striker/Striker is now doing 2d4 extra damage forcing the pure Striker to spend a feat to match the damage (by increasing their dice to d8's).
Edit: The halved extra damage could be converted to static damage instead of d3's, just taking the average instead which would greatly simplify matters. It would be half damage, but the down side is that there would be no dice to maximize in the case of a critical hit. For example the hybrid hunter's quarry/warlock's curse damage could be as such: (+2/+4/+6 at Heroic/Paragon/Epic tiers respectively)
The more i think about some of the Strikers, the more i'm starting to lean towards what's already in place for no reason other than that it seems to be the simplest approach to the problem. (Especially considering the Avenger)
On a side note, this was my approach to the Avenger damage. The major problem with quantifying the benefit from 'Oath' is that the increase to damage output varies according to the target's defense values and there is not a nice linear relationship between the two.
I will mention that in my example below, for simplicity sake, i am ignoring a large detail: the effect on damage output due to the increased chance to critical when using Oath of Enmity.
I needed to first determine what the overall increase to damage output is from rolling two dice in combat. Then we would be able to determine what sort of changes would be needed in order to reduce the Avenger's extra damage output by 50%.
[INDENT]For example: Let's take a arbitrary target to hit value on a d20 of 11. Normal Attack: 50% chance to hit = 10/20 Using Oath of Enmity: 75% chance to hit = 3/4= (10/20 + 10/20*10/20) [/INDENT] Which would be an overall 50% increase to damage output as the Avenger is landing 50% more hits on 'Oath' targets. ( 1.5 Ratio= 0.75/0.50 = New Hit Chance / Old Hit Chance)
So the hybrid version would have to give roughly half this benefit (25%) to overall damage output. This could be done in several ways such as a penalty to damage rolls, hit rolls, damage dice size etc., as long as the new overall average damage output is 1.25% of the average base damage.
But as i mentioned above, the effective increase to hit from the Avenger's Oath varies greatly according to the target's defense values. As a result the solution to reducing the benefit granted by the Oath is by no means a trivial one.
At what point did 'we don't want Hybrids to be more powerful than normal characters' become 'we don't want hybrids to be as powerful as normal characters'? A lot of suggestions and comments in this thread seem to want hybrids thoroughly relegated to permanent 5th man status at best.
I mean, there's the whole 'their power is in their versatility' argument, but it has never worked like that in D&D. In 3E a character who took 5 levels of cleric and 5 levels of wizard wasn't actually a level 10 character, he was still basically a level 5 character with a little more HP. And it's the same here, taking 50% of one class and 50% of another doesn't add up to full class, it just makes you fail at two roles instead of one. As it is currently, the hybrid system will become like multiclassing was in 3E... a system where most combinations are worthless and ignored, while the few that aren't are broken CharOp fodder. But if nothing else, it will at least help end the MMOG comparisons 4E is constantly getting. I mean, even WoW lets hybrids excel at something even if it's only healing.
Bottom line, a hybrid that has spent both his Hybrid Talent feat and his PP on a single class role should be able to perform at least 90% as well as a single class character in that role. If a hybrid can't fully and completely perform at one role, it has no business being around.
At what point did 'we don't want Hybrids to be more powerful than normal characters' become 'we don't want hybrids to be as powerful as normal characters'? A lot of suggestions and comments in this thread seem to want hybrids thoroughly relegated to permanent 5th man status at best.
I think a lot of people are putting forward suggestions that would make Hybrids vastly more powerful than standard characters. I think many vastly underestimate what it takes to make them 'as powerful' as normal characters versus 'more powerful' than normal characters.
mrsake wrote:
And it's the same here, taking 50% of one class and 50% of another doesn't add up to full class, it just makes you fail at two roles instead of one. As it is currently, the hybrid system will become like multiclassing was in 3E... a system where most combinations are worthless and ignored, while the few that aren't are broken CharOp fodder.
Right now, the hybrid roles let you choose two roles and perform at each one at nearly 100%, which the restriction that you can't do both at the same time. (Usually). Where in the world are you seeing they are performing at 50%? Seriously, if you feel the hybrids need to be doubled in power to be acceptable options, then I think you are seriously misjudging either how capable they are, or how capable they should be.
mrsake wrote:
Bottom line, a hybrid that has spent his both Hybrid Talent feat and his PP on a single class role should be able to perform at least 90% as well as a single class character in that role. If a hybrid can't fully and completely perform at one role, it has no business being around.
For a hybrid that focuses on two classes of the same role, then sure - it should be just as good as a non-hybrid of the same role. A hybrid who is split between two roles should not - even with a feat and paragon path, be 100% as good as a full non-hybrid of one role, since he also has significant capabilities at a second role.
On the other hand, I think being in the 90% to 95% effectiveness range is perfectly fine - and that is what the current hybrid rules really pull off, with that 5-10% tending to be lost in the form of a few missing minor class features and having some slightly more limiting options in terms of powers they can use in their main role. (With the trade-off being having access to the versatily of some powers from outside their role.) That seems pretty fair.
What hybrids do you really feel are unable to fulfill their role, when in the situation you describe? (Hybrid Talent + PP Hybrid Talent focused towards their desired specialty.)
Is it just me or are some statements in there that make no sense:
"An avenger rogue needs two good abilities scores (Wis and Dex), but having two striker hybrid classes means you’re particularly deadly to your enemies."
Like sneak attacking a target of Oath of Emni... ahh, yeah doesn't work... --- "barbarian ranger is a potent combatant. Such a character can use barbarian powers requiring a two-handed weapon as well as ranger powers requiring two melee weapons."
What?! A two handed weapon with two weapons? Unless you're a Thri-kreen, it's not gonna happen.
At what point did 'we don't want Hybrids to be more powerful than normal characters' become 'we don't want hybrids to be as powerful as normal characters'? A lot of suggestions and comments in this thread seem to want hybrids thoroughly relegated to permanent 5th man status at best.
For me, it's since AD&D. In that edition, the only reason not to multiclass is when you play a paladin or other class that cannot multiclass because demi-humans cannot be that class.
I have nothing against multiclassing or hybrids. In fact, I love them. I just don't want single classed characters to be religated to characters for beginners who haven't mastered the system. What I do not want to see is a hybrid that is simply better than some single classed character at doing what that class is supposed to do well. I would like to see single classed character have certain strengths, multiclass characters have others and hybrid characters have others.
I don't think the 5th man status is an issue in 4E anymore. The way it is designed, missing one of the 4 roles is no longer a significant disadvantage anymore.
I mean, there's the whole 'their power is in their versatility' argument, but it has never worked like that in D&D. In 3E a character who took 5 levels of cleric and 5 levels of wizard wasn't actually a level 10 character, he was still basically a level 5 character with a little more HP. And it's the same here, taking 50% of one class and 50% of another doesn't add up to full class, it just makes you fail at two roles instead of one. As it is currently, the hybrid system will become like multiclassing was in 3E... a system where most combinations are worthless and ignored, while the few that aren't are broken CharOp fodder. But if nothing else, it will at least help end the MMOG comparisons 4E is constantly getting. I mean, even WoW lets hybrids excel at something even if it's only healing.
4E is not like 3E where multiclassing means being a character of lower level. If anything with 4E, every character of the same level has (with a few exceptions) the same number of powers at the same level. If you are multiclassed or hybrid, some of these powers just happen to be from another class.
The class features is where the differences lie. Unlike powers (where those of the same level are more or less equal in power), class features (including proficiencies) are not obvious in how good they are compared to others of the same or different class. Most classes do not need all class features at full strength to perform their role adequately. The trick is to find out which ones are needed for sure and which ones may be needed (which you can get via Hybrid Talent) depending on the hybrid combination. Hybrid characters definitely do not feel like a lower level character even though they do not have all class features of either class. I cannot speak for all hybrids, but the one I am able to observe definitely do not appear to be of a lower level than the single classed characters.
There is some merit to hybrids having power in their versatility. In some situations you need a character of role A more than role B. A hybrid of two roles can make more of a difference in more situations because when you need to perform that second role a hybrid can take on that second role much better than a single classed character.
Bottom line, a hybrid that has spent both his Hybrid Talent feat and his PP on a single class role should be able to perform at least 90% as well as a single class character in that role. If a hybrid can't fully and completely perform at one role, it has no business being around.
I agree with this more or less. I think that a hybrid needs to perform adequately in a party. A single classed character should be better over a multi-role hybrid because the PP and extra feat and powers should give the single classed character a bit of an edge.
"barbarian ranger is a potent combatant. Such a character can use barbarian powers requiring a two-handed weapon as well as ranger powers requiring two melee weapons."
What?! A two handed weapon with two weapons? Unless you're a Thri-kreen, it's not gonna happen.
The only thing I can think of is the feat that allows the use of a quarterstaff as a double weapon. Still, that's way to specific to base such a comment on.
The only thing I can think of is the feat that allows the use of a quarterstaff as a double weapon. Still, that's way to specific to base such a comment on.
Not that it isn't as specific, but a character with a paired weapon (preferably a paired versatile weapon) and quick draw could switch between wielding a weapon two handed and wielding a weapon in each hand as a free action, so he could switch back and forth as often as he wants.
I think the issue is that the wizard only really has one class feature of significant power (Arcane Implement Mastery). In addition, it has three essentially lesser class features: Cantrips, Spellbook, and its Ritual Casting.
If the hybrid gave them Arcane Implement Mastery by default, it would be simply too strong - I imagine many people, interested in raw power, would gladly trade Cantrips, Spellbook and Ritual Casting for access to another class and whatever goodies they can get through Hybrid Talent (since they don't need to spend it on wizard stuff.)
So the hybrid gives one of the smaller ones instead (Cantrips) and allows Arcane Implement Mastery through Hybrid Talent. This does seem less than most classes get - but what are the other options? Say they gave Spellbook as well, figuring that two smaller features are about equal to what other classes get.
But that means a hybrid wizard who takes Hybrid Talent (for Arcane Implement Mastery) and Ritual Casting (the feat itself) has 95% of what a wizard normally has. He's down two feats and the ability to learn some rituals for free, and in return, he gets access to an entire second class of options and abilities. Plus, most likely, a significant boost in hitpoints, surges, weapon proficiencies...
Playing a standard wizard suddenly seems like a much weaker option.
So I think they took about the best approach they could - the strength if the wizard, really, is in its powers more than anything. Getting access to them is what you largely get from hybrid classing - with the ability to pick up the most potent class feature via Hybrid Talent. I don't see it as a fantastic solution... but I just don't see any better ones on the table.
Playing a standard wizard is a weaker option, regardless of anything else you choose to do. The class is weak.
If you're not fighting loads of minions, you're just standing there blowing through dailies that aren't doing anything. (I admit this is on the DM to provide encounters where minions figure prominently, but that hasn't been in my experience, including the published adventure for D&D Day MM2.)
I completely agree that you can't give a wizard Arcane Implement Mastery under the Hybrid system for free. However, the Spellbook should be the class feature, not Cantrips.
Put it this way, if every single class feature under the hybrid system were made into a Multiclass feat, how many of them would be gobbled up without a second thought? I'd say all but Cantrips. (Yes, I know they're two different systems not meant to reflect how the other works, but I'm trying to illustrate the weakness of the class feature vs. all the others.)
igniz wrote:
There's a good reason Wizards don't get their Rituals or Spellbooks, implement mastery is a good sacrifice.
I keep seeing people say this, but I have yet to see anyone state what that reason is.
Spellbooks are what make a wizard a wizard, rather than a sorcerer. And Rituals, I am convinced, are highly overrated. You can't use them in battle, and while some are pretty great outside combat, they're nothing your party's cleric can't provide you.
Anyway, I don't like the hybrid system any more than I like the multi-class system. In order to have a character that feels like it works for your concept, you have to significantly weaken it. While it's too overpowered as a general idea, I'd like to see Wizards work on giving us a way to start with one base class, then take any class feature from another class as a feat, along the same lines as the multi-class feats. Yes, I am aware that just saying, "Go ahead, take any class feature from any class you want as a feat" is too unbalanced. That's why I'd like Wizards to work on a system along that line. They know how do things according to their system.
Playing a standard wizard is a weaker option, regardless of anything else you choose to do. The class is weak.
If you're not fighting loads of minions, you're just standing there blowing through dailies that aren't doing anything. (I admit this is on the DM to provide encounters where minions figure prominently, but that hasn't been in my experience, including the published adventure for D&D Day MM2.)
I think the reason that loads of minions don't show up is because they are over rated. The concept behind them was cool but they are just to weak to constitute 1/4 of a monster. Even WoTC admitted this several times including their newest podcast on the MM2.
The problem is in part the wizard who can wipe out 4+ of them in one blast with and encounter/at-will power. Which a standard monster of that level no one else could one shoot except maybe a barbarian who got some great rolls and used a daily.
So the minions feel to weak and the end result is that the DM doesn't use them. I will admit I haven't had a chance to try the "new minions" in MM2. They said they assigned them roles but not sure how well that addresses the problem of them being a push over to players.
Playing a standard wizard is a weaker option, regardless of anything else you choose to do. The class is weak.
I don't think the wizard is quite as weak as you - but even if it is, that isn't a reason to make a hybrid character be better than it in every single way. Which is basically what you are asking for, and is pretty unreasonable.
AlioTheFool wrote:
I completely agree that you can't give a wizard Arcane Implement Mastery under the Hybrid system for free. However, the Spellbook should be the class feature, not Cantrips.
Put it this way, if every single class feature under the hybrid system were made into a Multiclass feat, how many of them would be gobbled up without a second thought? I'd say all but Cantrips. (Yes, I know they're two different systems not meant to reflect how the other works, but I'm trying to illustrate the weakness of the class feature vs. all the others.)
But that's the point - you are saying that the only two class features the wizard has that you care about are Arcane Implement Mastery and the Spellbook. And that the Hybrid system should let you get those, while also getting superior HP, Healing Surges, Weapon Proficiencies, extra class features and expanded power selection - all essentially for free.
Letting hybrids do that would be completely unbalancing, and is pretty much the exact goal of what they are trying to do here - make characters who are different from the base classes, rather than strictly better.
The hybrid wizard does get somewhat short-changed in the class feature options (though it can pick up its biggest one via Hybrid Talent). But in return, it is able to get solid improvement on almost all its other stats, along with potentially powerful class features from other classes. That is certainly enough to allow one to design a competent and effective characters within the hybrid rules as they currently stand.
Now, all that said... I think having Spellbook as another option via Hybrid Talent might not be unreasonable. As you mention, it is pretty iconic, and some may well prefer it to Arcane Implement Mastery, as strong as that is.
If you really want both? Then playing a normal wizard, in the end, remains an option.
AlioTheFool wrote:
Anyway, I don't like the hybrid system any more than I like the multi-class system. In order to have a character that feels like it works for your concept, you have to significantly weaken it. While it's too overpowered as a general idea, I'd like to see Wizards work on giving us a way to start with one base class, then take any class feature from another class as a feat, along the same lines as the multi-class feats. Yes, I am aware that just saying, "Go ahead, take any class feature from any class you want as a feat" is too unbalanced. That's why I'd like Wizards to work on a system along that line. They know how do things according to their system.
Except... that is just what they did, here! They found away to allow people to have multiple class features without letting them combine all those features into one uber-character that breaks the system. But you can't have it both ways - you can't ask them to design a balanced system, and then complain that it doesn't let you make a character beyond the system's power level.
In any case, I really don't see what you are referring to with the need to 'significantly weaken' your character in order to make them work. The hybrid rules allow for perfectly competent characters of all stripes. Builds designed more for flavor than optimization will tend to be slightly weaker than the more min/maxed builds, but that is no different than with normal characters - and, as with the rest of the system, 4E does a decent job of keeping the difference between the two somewhat reasonable.
What character do you honestly feel would be crippled in the hybrid system? And what is it they cannot attain that you feel is causing the problem?
I don't think the wizard is quite as weak as you - but even if it is, that isn't a reason to make a hybrid character be better than it in every single way. Which is basically what you are asking for, and is pretty unreasonable.
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion based on what I'm asking for: switching out Cantrips for Spellbooks as the single class feature.
MrMyth wrote:
But that's the point - you are saying that the only two class features the wizard has that you care about are Arcane Implement Mastery and the Spellbook. And that the Hybrid system should let you get those, while also getting superior HP, Healing Surges, Weapon Proficiencies, extra class features and expanded power selection - all essentially for free.
But that's not what I'm saying at all. I asked for Spellbook to replace Cantrips. Arcane Implement Mastery would still be subject to the Hybrid Talent feat, which you can only take once. Therefore, you can choose to get that feature, or a feature from your other class. The only way you can gain an class feature from wizard and your other class is via sacrificing your Paragon Path.
I'm not advocating simply smashing the Hybrid system simply for the sake of doing so.
MrMyth wrote:
Letting hybrids do that would be completely unbalancing, and is pretty much the exact goal of what they are trying to do here - make characters who are different from the base classes, rather than strictly better.
Are you referring to where I was asking about making all class features feat-based? If so, I was trying to make a point, not flat out say that Wizards should do that.
MrMyth wrote:
The hybrid wizard does get somewhat short-changed in the class feature options (though it can pick up its biggest one via Hybrid Talent). But in return, it is able to get solid improvement on almost all its other stats, along with potentially powerful class features from other classes. That is certainly enough to allow one to design a competent and effective characters within the hybrid rules as they currently stand.
You're admitting that wizards get short-changed on the class features, but since they can pick up a class feature or two from other classes, just like every other Hybrid can, they'd be overpowered? I don't get it. How then aren't other classes overpowered while getting the power to grab those additional class features?
MrMyth wrote:
Now, all that said... I think having Spellbook as another option via Hybrid Talent might not be unreasonable. As you mention, it is pretty iconic, and some may well prefer it to Arcane Implement Mastery, as strong as that is.
Cantrips and Spellbook would turn me off to the Hybrid of wizard. I can't stand Cantrips. I just don't see any usefulness to them outside of having cute DM-infuriating ideas such as using Mage Hand to set off a trap, or creating a light show for children with Prestidigitation.
MrMyth wrote:
If you really want both? Then playing a normal wizard, in the end, remains an option.
Of course it does. But that's not relevant to the topic of Hybrid Characters.
MrMyth wrote:
Except... that is just what they did, here! They found away to allow people to have multiple class features without letting them combine all those features into one uber-character that breaks the system. But you can't have it both ways - you can't ask them to design a balanced system, and then complain that it doesn't let you make a character beyond the system's power level.
I understand your point, and I know that what I said is too overpowered, as I stated. That doesn't mean I don't think Wizards should continue to explore ways to allow cross-classing beyond multi-classing and hybrid classing (which it sounds like they are still doing according to that Design & Development article.)
I personally don't like the structure of the two current options, as-is. That doesn't make me right, it just makes me unwilling to use the two current methodologies to play my characters. I have character concepts in my head that can't be implemented via the current methods. I just hope that at some point I'll get to create them. (I'm not looking for an uber-powered character. Actually, I make terribly weak overall characters, no matter what game I'm playing, because I prefer to build characters to my character concept, rather than to maximize their effectiveness.)
MrMyth wrote:
In any case, I really don't see what you are referring to with the need to 'significantly weaken' your character in order to make them work. The hybrid rules allow for perfectly competent characters of all stripes. Builds designed more for flavor than optimization will tend to be slightly weaker than the more min/maxed builds, but that is no different than with normal characters - and, as with the rest of the system, 4E does a decent job of keeping the difference between the two somewhat reasonable.
So far, from what I've seen, wizards who are built for flavor are far more gimped than slightly, even compared to other classes who are built reasonably. I'm always standing back firing off everything I know while the rest of my party is kicking the teeth in of the monsters were facing. (The same was even true on D&D Game Day, and those were pregens.)
MrMyth wrote:
What character do you honestly feel would be crippled in the hybrid system? And what is it they cannot attain that you feel is causing the problem?
Again, I'd be happy just trading Cantrips for Spellbook. The concept I'd most like to work with right now is my wizard/swordmage who focuses much more on his wizardly powers, but uses his swordmage ability only when caught with his back-against-the-wall.
Right now, the best option for me is my full wizard coupled with Heart of the Blade (which I like for the swordbond feature --very Jedi-esque,--) Eladrin Sword Wizardry, Intelligent Blademaster, Eladrin Soldier, and Implement Expertise (Heavy Blade.) That's a lot of feats to fit in my concept (and I try to always avoid melee anyway.) If I could hybrid the two, I'd get enough of the swordmage's benefit while keeping my wizard concept alive. Without my spellbook though, it's just not worth playing. I'm a Tomebound mage, so without a spellbook, it's a bit gimpy, especially when it comes to my Improved Tome of Readiness feat, which would be useless without a spellbook (not to mention impossible without also using the hybrid talent to grab Arcane Implement Mastery.)
You're admitting that wizards get short-changed on the class features, but since they can pick up a class feature or two from other classes, just like every other Hybrid can, they'd be overpowered? I don't get it. How then aren't other classes overpowered while getting the power to grab those additional class features?
Wizards have fewer class features than other classes because their power comes from their powers. The concern MrMyth is expressing is that, do to the low number of class features a wizard has, it may be too easy for a hybrid wizard to pick up all the class features of a wizard that you care about while also picking up class features (along with better hit points and weapon proficiencies) of another class, making a hybrid wizard strictly better than a normal wizard. If Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only features of a wizard you care about, and you can have both with your Hybrid Talent feat, you'd have no reason to ever play a normal wizard again (other than the feat cost of Hybrid talent and "needing" to cherry pick some of the best powers from your second class). There was the same issue with the warlord in the first iteration of the hybrid rules; you could have all the warlord class features as a hybrid so there was little reason not to pick up another class and have some extra features from that class, too.
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion based on what I'm asking for: switching out Cantrips for Spellbooks as the single class feature.
But that's not what I'm saying at all. I asked for Spellbook to replace Cantrips. Arcane Implement Mastery would still be subject to the Hybrid Talent feat, which you can only take once. Therefore, you can choose to get that feature, or a feature from your other class. The only way you can gain an class feature from wizard and your other class is via sacrificing your Paragon Path.
I'm not advocating simply smashing the Hybrid system simply for the sake of doing so.
So, with your suggestion in mind, let's compare to a Hybrid Wizard with Hybrid Talent for Arcane Implement Mastery.
Wizard/Swordmage has 12+Con hp, +5 hp/level, 7+Con Surges, +2 Will, 3 Skills, Arcane Implement Mastery, Spellbook, Swordbond, Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid), Proficiency with Cloth armor, Simple Melee and Simple Ranged, Military Light and Heavy Blades, Orbs, Staffs, Wands, and the ability to use Light and Heavy Blades as Implements.
So, we are losing: Cantrips, 1 skill, Ritual Casting, and 1 feat.
In return we gain: Hitpoints (equivalent to double the amount given by the Toughness feat), a Healing Surge, a significant number of weapon proficiencies, access to swords as implements, a relatively minor class feature (Swordbond), plus a core Defender class feature at almost full power (Aegis, losing only the ability to switch it from an existing target to a new one).
That seems a pretty clear upgrade in power. Not even accounting for having two entire classes worth of powers to select from.
Now, to be fair - the main issue here is simply that a class that inherently has low stats (hp) and proficiencies is going to gain an exceptional benefit from te hybrid rules. Even with switching Spellbook for Cantrips, it still seems a pretty strong upgrade - but in this case, I think the loss of a Spellbook is a slightly stronger loss in terms of raw power, and does help to at least somewhat balance the exchange. As you mentioned, you yourself have little need for Cantrips or Rituals. At which point you are only giving up 1 skill and 1 feat in order to have a wizard who is suddenly just better in almost every way.
On the other hand, it looks like more a loss going in the other direction: Comparing a Swordmage to a Swordmage/Wizard taking Hybrid Talent for Swordbond, you are losing 3 hp + 1 hp/level, 1 Healing Surge, Leather Armor Proficiency, 1 skill and 1 feat, and in return gaining... Cantrips. And, more alluring, access to Wizard powers - which are potent, but it does seem a somewhat lopsided trade. But if you improve that trade, than all Hybrid Wizards end up pretty clearly better than basic Wizards - and that isn't a good thing.
It is simply an unfortunate result of the hybrid system and the base wizard design itself. But that said, these builds still remain competent ones when compared to the non-hybrid swordmage and wizard. And that is really the important part.
You're admitting that wizards get short-changed on the class features, but since they can pick up a class feature or two from other classes, just like every other Hybrid can, they'd be overpowered? I don't get it. How then aren't other classes overpowered while getting the power to grab those additional class features?
The long and short of it? Other classes simply have more class features available to be split. I can give a Fighter Combat Challenge up front, and leave the excellent Fighter Weapon Talent available only via Hybrid Talent - and even once he has taken that, he has other potent abilities (armor profociencies, Combat Superiority) that he has to leave behind. That simply doesn't work for Wizards. It does have hp or armor proficiencies to leave behind - all it can do, raw number wise, is gain. So it gets short-changed on class features instead - gains one of its minor features up front, has its major feature available via Hybrid Talent, and doesn't get access to its other features at all. That seems to be the trade it has to make for otherwise improving in just about every way.
I understand your point, and I know that what I said is too overpowered, as I stated. That doesn't mean I don't think Wizards should continue to explore ways to allow cross-classing beyond multi-classing and hybrid classing (which it sounds like they are still doing according to that Design & Development article.)
I personally don't like the structure of the two current options, as-is. That doesn't make me right, it just makes me unwilling to use the two current methodologies to play my characters. I have character concepts in my head that can't be implemented via the current methods. I just hope that at some point I'll get to create them. (I'm not looking for an uber-powered character. Actually, I make terribly weak overall characters, no matter what game I'm playing, because I prefer to build characters to my character concept, rather than to maximize their effectiveness.)
Well, I'd certainly be eager to see other methods in the future as well. But I don't think any would - or should - allow you do what I think you are hoping for.
I mean, I do sympathize with your desire to have an easy way to bring your character together. But it sounds like your concept would only be fulfilled by having a character with all of the wizard features you feel are worthwhile (Spellbook, Arcane Implement Mastery), none of the ones you don't care about (Cantrips, Rituals), plus several Swordmage powers. In this case, there is a way to build that - but it is a feat intensive one. On the other hand, I'm not sure it shouldn't be - especially considering two of those feats (Eladrin Soldier and Implement Expertise) aren't fundamental to the build, but simply adding raw boosts to damage and accuracy on top of the other elements.
I definitely understand that the Spellbook is central to your character (as is the Arcane Implement Mastery). But if you can retain all the defining elements of the character as a wizard, while gaining the defining elements of another class for free, you are essentially gaining power without having to give anything up. Can't you see how that could be a significant issue?
Wizards have fewer class features than other classes because their power comes from their powers. The concern MrMyth is expressing is that, do to the low number of class features a wizard has, it may be too easy for a hybrid wizard to pick up all the class features of a wizard that you care about while also picking up class features (along with better hit points and weapon proficiencies) of another class, making a hybrid wizard strictly better than a normal wizard. If Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only features of a wizard you care about, and you can have both with your Hybrid Talent feat, you'd have no reason to ever play a normal wizard again (other than the feat cost of Hybrid talent and "needing" to cherry pick some of the best powers from your second class). There was the same issue with the warlord in the first iteration of the hybrid rules; you could have all the warlord class features as a hybrid so there was little reason not to pick up another class and have some extra features from that class, too.
Yeah, precisely this. Chaosmage says in one paragraph what it took me multiple rambling posts to try and get across.
I should mention that the real issue here is just a fundamental problem with controllers. Since they don't have a defining feature like other roles (strikers get damage boost, leaders get healing word, defenders get a marking mechanism), they tend to be largely defined by their powers, while also having less class features than other roles. Which means, with the hybrid rules, that hybrid-controllers tend to be just better than their normal versions. Druids and Invokers have the same issues - and are honestly even a bit worse, since they get their most relevant class features up front, and that leaves Hybrid Talent potentially free. It's a somewhat unfortunate situation - but one that there is no real way to fix without going back in time and convincing WotC to add some sort of defining feature to all controller classes.
Why not allow the wizard to have a Spellbook (hybrid) option with which he can only pick 2 dailies/utilities for his spellbook when he picks a wizard spell, and lump the free rituals in with the ritual caster hybrid talent option. That gives you three choices for hybrid wizard to pick in case you paragon hybrid at 11th level.
As it stands, a hybrid swordmage can still take the feat to gain a spellbook.
Yeah, precisely this. Chaosmage says in one paragraph what it took me multiple rambling posts to try and get across.
I should mention that the real issue here is just a fundamental problem with controllers. Since they don't have a defining feature like other roles (strikers get damage boost, leaders get healing word, defenders get a marking mechanism), they tend to be largely defined by their powers, while also having less class features than other roles. Which means, with the hybrid rules, that hybrid-controllers tend to be just better than their normal versions. Druids and Invokers have the same issues - and are honestly even a bit worse, since they get their most relevant class features up front, and that leaves Hybrid Talent potentially free. It's a somewhat unfortunate situation - but one that there is no real way to fix without going back in time and convincing WotC to add some sort of defining feature to all controller classes.
I see your point more clearly now, but it only winds up reinforcing what I've been saying the past few days anyway: wizards are inherently a weak class.
Yes, I can see where you're coming from, but if wizards weren't weak in the first place, they wouldn't seem so overpowering with that one tweak to their hybrid. Like you illustrated, it actually gimps a swordmage to hybrid in a wizard, whereas it's a boost to a wizard to bring in a swordmage.
Either way, a wizard still isn't a wizard without his spellbook. I might even be willing to give up the Implement Mastery for a Spellbook. Though you can still keep the Cantrips.
Wizards have fewer class features than other classes because their power comes from their powers.
I'm asking this honestly and without sarcasm because I'd like to understand what you mean, but what is the difference between a wizard's power coming from its powers, and any other class' power coming from its powers?
I just flipped quickly through PHB1 and looked at each class' level 9 dailies, and they all look pretty nicely powered. They're all different obviously, but I don't see how a wizard's powers are any more potent than any other class' powers.
So, with your suggestion in mind, let's compare to a Hybrid Wizard with Hybrid Talent for Arcane Implement Mastery.
Wizard/Swordmage has 12+Con hp, +5 hp/level, 7+Con Surges, +2 Will, 3 Skills, Arcane Implement Mastery, Spellbook, Swordbond, Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid), Proficiency with Cloth armor, Simple Melee and Simple Ranged, Military Light and Heavy Blades, Orbs, Staffs, Wands, and the ability to use Light and Heavy Blades as Implements.
So, we are losing: Cantrips, 1 skill, Ritual Casting, and 1 feat.
In return we gain: Hitpoints (equivalent to double the amount given by the Toughness feat), a Healing Surge, a significant number of weapon proficiencies, access to swords as implements, a relatively minor class feature (Swordbond), plus a core Defender class feature at almost full power (Aegis, losing only the ability to switch it from an existing target to a new one).
That seems a pretty clear upgrade in power. Not even accounting for having two entire classes worth of powers to select from.
I would say that the biggest weakness you have as a wizard that hybrid multiclasses with swordmage, and who goes with Arcane Implement Mastery, is that your wizard powers generally encourage you to remain at range, while your swordmage powers are close blast 3 at best, and more often close burst 1 or melee weapon. You have to have an even split of powers starting out, so it means you have to choose carefully to avoid being unable to stay an acceptable distance away.
You have a swordmage marking capability, but you lack the AC to use it to draw away attacks (since you went with an improved implement instead of improved AC). You'd probably go Aegis of Shielding, since the other two Aegis powers teleport you to the enemy, or the enemy to you. I can't deny that's useful, though.
Access to swords as implements is of limited value, since you've taken Implement Mastery as your hybrid feat. The same goes for getting access to a few more weapons. Eladrin wizards get a free proficiency with a longsword, probably the nicest of the military heavy blades, and I haven't seen that act as a decider for people deciding between it and another race for a wizard. It's just a function of most (not all) wizards tending to stay out of melee.
I'd call the benefits of note for the hybrid wizard/swordmage over the straight wizard to be increased durability (hit points and healing surge), more flexibility with weapons (though only slightly more power), and the ability to mark and reduce damage. You also do get access to swordmage powers which have different effects, but typically do less damage to fewer targets at a closer range, which can be an advantage or a disadvantage. In exchange, you're losing a feat, a skill, cantrips, and Ritual Casting, including the bonus rituals. You also lose half the benefit of the Spellbook, because it only applies to wizard daily and utility powers.
Is it better than a straight wizard? I'd say yes, but I'm also the sort of player who'd rather play a swordmage anyway, so I weigh that ability to get into melee more highly. If the wizard's hybrid benefits are so low, I'd expect to see more people multiclass into wizard and use power swap feats if they really think that they want to be able to drop a big scary attack.
I see your point more clearly now, but it only winds up reinforcing what I've been saying the past few days anyway: wizards are inherently a weak class.
Yes, I can see where you're coming from, but if wizards weren't weak in the first place, they wouldn't seem so overpowering with that one tweak to their hybrid. Like you illustrated, it actually gimps a swordmage to hybrid in a wizard, whereas it's a boost to a wizard to bring in a swordmage.
But, again, it isn't an issue of power so much as design - most other classes have their central capabilities encapsulated in their unique class features. The wizard's strongest facets - the ability to attack more enemies than anyone else, and the ability to usually inflict the most debilitating conditions - is entirely found within their powers.
Even if this wasn't enough - even if your claim that wizards are a weak class was true (and I do personally disagree with the assessment) - then the fix should be applied there, to the Wizard class itself. It should not be applied by buffing the hybrid version of them to be simply stronger than the base wizard without paying any cost for the gain in power.
Either way, a wizard still isn't a wizard without his spellbook. I might even be willing to give up the Implement Mastery for a Spellbook. Though you can still keep the Cantrips.
I'd say many people would feel that cantrips are as central to a wizard as a Spellbook.
And I do stand by my earlier suggestion - having the Spellbook also available as a choice via Hybrid Talent. It is clearly not as strong as Implement Mastery, but that would mean it is there for those who truly need it - and Paragon Hybrid Classing would let you get both.
But, again, it isn't an issue of power so much as design - most other classes have their central capabilities encapsulated in their unique class features. The wizard's strongest facets - the ability to attack more enemies than anyone else, and the ability to usually inflict the most debilitating conditions - is entirely found within their powers.
Even if this wasn't enough - even if your claim that wizards are a weak class was true (and I do personally disagree with the assessment) - then the fix should be applied there, to the Wizard class itself. It should not be applied by buffing the hybrid version of them to be simply stronger than the base wizard without paying any cost for the gain in power.
I actually fully agree with you here. The problem being, of course, that the class is already defined.
MrMyth wrote:
I'd say many people would feel that cantrips are as central to a wizard as a Spellbook.
And I do stand by my earlier suggestion - having the Spellbook also available as a choice via Hybrid Talent. It is clearly not as strong as Implement Mastery, but that would mean it is there for those who truly need it - and Paragon Hybrid Classing would let you get both.
Here's something I wrote in another Hybrid thread:
AlioTheFool wrote:
Okay, I'm obviously really trying hard to present my argument here, so I have some more to present.
Looking at the base wizard class, it has 4 features. Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting feat for free, and Spellbook.
Arcane Implement Mastery is only usable once per encounter. Whatever feature you choose, it's only good on a one-shot deal. Sure, it's a very nice ability, but in my experience, it's not critical to my success. (Adding implement damage is nice, but don't other classes work exactly the same?)
No one yet has identified (in any thread where I'm trying to discuss this) what Cantrips are useful for. Sure, they're all "wizardy" since you can light up candles in your library by snapping your fingers, or you can have a ghostly hand grab a book for you off a shelf, but besides roleplay uses, what else do Cantrips provide? I'm fully open to listening to a counter-argument.
Sacrificing Ritual Casting is a cost, but one your party's cleric can make up for. And you can still pick it up anyway if you really want it, so it doesn't make sense as a class feature.
Spellbook is where a wizard gets his true power in a fight. Firstly, he uses it to prepare what spells he believes will be useful to him that day. There's a chance they might be useless, but that's the price you pay. Beyond that, a spellbook is only useful if you start loading up on feats, and choose Tome as your implement. In that case, you're burning up feats to improve an aspect of your character, while ignore other possibilities.
There is an argument being presented in one of the other Hybrid threads that a Wizard's power comes from his powers, and I agree with that. However, where I differ from that poster's assessment is that without the class feature of Spellbook, you've effectively torn at least half of the power from the wizard class (his power to choose between different spells of the same level based on what he knows/believes is coming in the day ahead.)
If you took away Cantrips from a standard wizard, how much would it hurt the PC, beyond some roleplayability? Now if you did the same with any particular class feature of any other class, would it have the same effect, or would it truly hurt the character? I'm not intimately familiar with every PC class in the game (I tend to concentrate on just the classes I play) but off the top of my head, there isn't a single class feature of any other class that I could say making unavailable to that class wouldn't cause some harm to. Again though, I'm open to counter-arguments.
I'm asking this honestly and without sarcasm because I'd like to understand what you mean, but what is the difference between a wizard's power coming from its powers, and any other class' power coming from its powers?
I just flipped quickly through PHB1 and looked at each class' level 9 dailies, and they all look pretty nicely powered. They're all different obviously, but I don't see how a wizard's powers are any more potent than any other class' powers.
Really? Ice storm can remove any 7x7 group of melee opponents from the battle for, potentially, several rounds (and, at a minimum, a round, which is still good considering the area of the power). Even enemies he misses will have a hard time getting to a useful place due to being slowed. Is there another 9th level power in the PHB that can do anything like that?
This is further expanding on what MrMyth already posted, but other PHB classes are defined by their features; a dagger rogue is relying entirely on the feature that gives him increased accuracy and the feature that gives him increased damage with combat advantage to do his striker damage. Powers are used to support that, giving mobility, status effects that grant combat advantage, and a small boost in damage for multi W powers, but its sneak attack, rogue weapon talent, and rogue tactics (for either a bigger boost to damage or inherent mobility) that defines the rogue's ability to fulfill his role. Warlords, similiarly, have healing and buffing built into their class as features. Fighters have their ability to mark, stop movement with OAs, and soak up attacks as part of their class features. All of those use powers to support their role, but they can fulfill their role using only at will attacks if they need to.
The wizard is the other way around; its powers define its role and give it the opportunity to control the battlefield. Its class features provide some support in that role- wand to more accurately target key control abilities, staff to survive dangerous situations that being a controller attracts, orb to extend the duration of control effects, and so on- but the powers define their ability to fulfill their role, not the features.
Okay, I'm obviously really trying hard to present my argument here, so I have some more to present.
Looking at the base wizard class, it has 4 features. Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting feat for free, and Spellbook.
Arcane Implement Mastery is only usable once per encounter. Whatever feature you choose, it's only good on a one-shot deal. Sure, it's a very nice ability, but in my experience, it's not critical to my success. (Adding implement damage is nice, but don't other classes work exactly the same?)
No one yet has identified (in any thread where I'm trying to discuss this) what Cantrips are useful for. Sure, they're all "wizardy" since you can light up candles in your library by snapping your fingers, or you can have a ghostly hand grab a book for you off a shelf, but besides roleplay uses, what else do Cantrips provide? I'm fully open to listening to a counter-argument.
Sacrificing Ritual Casting is a cost, but one your party's cleric can make up for. And you can still pick it up anyway if you really want it, so it doesn't make sense as a class feature.
Spellbook is where a wizard gets his true power in a fight. Firstly, he uses it to prepare what spells he believes will be useful to him that day. There's a chance they might be useless, but that's the price you pay. Beyond that, a spellbook is only useful if you start loading up on feats, and choose Tome as your implement. In that case, you're burning up feats to improve an aspect of your character, while ignore other possibilities.
There is an argument being presented in one of the other Hybrid threads that a Wizard's power comes from his powers, and I agree with that. However, where I differ from that poster's assessment is that without the class feature of Spellbook, you've effectively torn at least half of the power from the wizard class (his power to choose between different spells of the same level based on what he knows/believes is coming in the day ahead.)
If you took away Cantrips from a standard wizard, how much would it hurt the PC, beyond some roleplayability? Now if you did the same with any particular class feature of any other class, would it have the same effect, or would it truly hurt the character? I'm not intimately familiar with every PC class in the game (I tend to concentrate on just the classes I play) but off the top of my head, there isn't a single class feature of any other class that I could say making unavailable to that class wouldn't cause some harm to. Again though, I'm open to counter-arguments.
You're again arguing that Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only two features that matter to a wizard- which is exactly why we're saying you can't give one of those to a wizard for free, because then a hybrid wizard can spend one feat to have every feature that matters to a wizard. If you're just suggesting having Spellbook be another option for Hybrid talent, so that a wizard only gets both if he goes paragon hybrid, I'd support that. If you're suggesting they get Spellbook for free, I think you'd be stepping on the single class wizard's toes too much.
Liking what I'm seeing for the most part. "Broken" aspects from classes are still kind of "broken" for HCs, but unless those classes are "patched" I don't think hybrids will see like fixes. Although I'm starting to see some possibilities for even more broken-ness from what y'all've said.
When implementing hybrids in my campaigns I think I'm going to let the hybrid strikers add their extra damage to all their appropriate attacks (appropriate being same power source, like martial for rogues and rangers, arcane for 'locks, etc), excepting a dice size reduction or damage reduction for powers not from the class they're getting the talent from.
Can't wait for this to hit the CB so I can play around with various builds.
I haven't read this entire thread in detail, but here are my impressions:
AC bonuses: with paragon hybridization, combinations like avenger/swordmage (or /barbarian) can get absurd. Be careful about those.
(Hybrid) features working only on class powers: that's probably the best solution. You could try to halve striker damage and apply it to all attacks, but as others have said, that makes the avenger and barbarian difficult. If you allow any of these features to work on basic attacks, things get messy.
Marking: Here's where things are already messy. The paladin mark is crap (the paladin's mark was already the weakest, and this one is just totally ignorable), but a paladin/fighter can now mark as a minor, make any attack he likes, and thus double-dip. Any other double-defender combination (except paladin/swordmage) also has potential that is unusually potent.
Healing: Double-leaders need to not fall behind. A hybrid talent option to net them an extra heal at level 15 would do the trick. So would text that says that if you have two class feature powers with the healing keyword that normally can be used twice per encounter, then at level 15 you get an additional use per encounter of either one.
Beast Mastery (hybrid): Beast Mastery is already a weak option. Making the beast even more squishy is a bad idea.
Sorcerer: As written, you can get some oddities where a Dragon sorc uses Dex to determine damage, etc. Dunno if that's intentional; it's certainly not broken. It's weird, though.
Swordmage Aegis (hybrid): For regaining its use, please substitute "when its mark is superceded by another" to "when the mark is cancelled." A few enemies have the ability to end a mark on themselves, and that would gimp the swordmage badly.
Eldritch Pact (hybrid): So what do you get? Apparently nothing, except the ability to qualify for paragon paths, and feats if you take Hybrid Talent to get the Pact Boon. In this case, the text should say what you get, not what you don't get.
Wizard: Formatting aside, just getting cantrips, and not even a spellbook, is weak. I recommend Arcane Implement Mastery (hybrid), where you get the ability-based feature of the normal version, but at -2 (e.g. Staff of Defense gives you no static AC bonus, and the encounter ability grants a bonus to defenses equal to your Con modifier -2).
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book
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I haven't read this entire thread in detail, but here are my impressions:
Marking: Here's where things are already messy. The paladin mark is crap (the paladin's mark was already the weakest, and this one is just totally ignorable), but a paladin/fighter can now mark as a minor, make any attack he likes, and thus double-dip. Any other double-defender combination (except paladin/swordmage) also has potential that is unusually potent.
Eldritch Pact (hybrid): So what do you get? Apparently nothing, except the ability to qualify for paragon paths, and feats if you take Hybrid Talent to get the Pact Boon. In this case, the text should say what you get, not what you don't get.
I think that they're less concerned about marking multiple foes and more concerned about punishing a mark twice, hence the change of the paladin's divine challenge auto damage to an immediate reaction. Dropping the damage on it is definitely overkill.
With Eldritch Pact, you get the various power riders that depend on your pact. A lot of powers that are ok without those riders become great with them. It's also a prerequisite for twofold pact, which really needs some kind of clarification on how it works with a hybrid character.
Really? Ice storm can remove any 7x7 group of melee opponents from the battle for, potentially, several rounds (and, at a minimum, a round, which is still good considering the area of the power). Even enemies he misses will have a hard time getting to a useful place due to being slowed. Is there another 9th level power in the PHB that can do anything like that?
This is further expanding on what MrMyth already posted, but other PHB classes are defined by their features; a dagger rogue is relying entirely on the feature that gives him increased accuracy and the feature that gives him increased damage with combat advantage to do his striker damage. Powers are used to support that, giving mobility, status effects that grant combat advantage, and a small boost in damage for multi W powers, but its sneak attack, rogue weapon talent, and rogue tactics (for either a bigger boost to damage or inherent mobility) that defines the rogue's ability to fulfill his role. Warlords, similiarly, have healing and buffing built into their class as features. Fighters have their ability to mark, stop movement with OAs, and soak up attacks as part of their class features. All of those use powers to support their role, but they can fulfill their role using only at will attacks if they need to.
The wizard is the other way around; its powers define its role and give it the opportunity to control the battlefield. Its class features provide some support in that role- wand to more accurately target key control abilities, staff to survive dangerous situations that being a controller attracts, orb to extend the duration of control effects, and so on- but the powers define their ability to fulfill their role, not the features.
Ice Storm is Int vs. Fort. On a hit, you deal 2d8 +Int modifier damage and immobilize the target. On a miss you get half damage, and it's slowed. You turn all that terrain difficult, but it's difficult for allies too (which I've found makes my fellow party members are very happy to have to deal with. )
A fighter has Thicket of Blades at the same level. It's Str vs. AC. On a hit, you deal 3[W] +Str modifier damage and the target is slowed.
If the fighter has a regular Greatsword, that's 3d10 +Str. Average damage would be, say, 18 (+3 modifier for Str.)? Average damage for the Ice Storm would be 7 (+3 modifier for Int.) or 5 on a miss. The Ice Storm needs to hit 3 different targets or miss 4 to get the same total damage output as a hit from ToB. What separates these powers is role. The fighter is supposed to be hitting one standard enemy while the wizard is going after groups of weaker minions.
Every class is defined by both their powers and their class features. The powers support their roles, and those class features are there to supplement those powers. The wizard's powers are supplemented by daily flexibility provided by a spellbook. The fighter's is supplemented by the ability to mark or stop an enemy from moving away. Not to mention, Fighter Weapon Talent is an "always on" ability, whereas Arcane Implement Mastery gets one round of work, once per encounter.
ChaosMage wrote:
You're again arguing that Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only two features that matter to a wizard- which is exactly why we're saying you can't give one of those to a wizard for free, because then a hybrid wizard can spend one feat to have every feature that matters to a wizard. If you're just suggesting having Spellbook be another option for Hybrid talent, so that a wizard only gets both if he goes paragon hybrid, I'd support that. If you're suggesting they get Spellbook for free, I think you'd be stepping on the single class wizard's toes too much.
No, I'm saying Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only features that matter to me. And there is a mighty big difference there. (Especially considering that there are a number of people who say they want Cantrips.)
But before you say I'm just being greedy when I say that, consider the following:
Ritual Casting is available to any class, via feat, as long as they are trained in Religion or Arcana. That's not exactly an exclusive thing to wizards, so it shouldn't be considered for a Hybrid Talent.
As for Cantrips, if you made Cantrips a Hybrid Talent along with Implement Mastery (which people are highly overvaluing for a one round bonus once per fight) and gave wizards the Spellbook for free, only someone who was truly dedicated to a wizard build (and just wanted to grab a few "replacement" powers from another class) would bother to hybrid a wizard at all. And I doubt most of them would take Cantrips.
A Hybrid wizard, even mixing with Warden for the hit points would still start with less HP than a standard wizard. So he's already weaker. If he has Spellbook and takes Implement Mastery, he has cloth armor. Plus, the only stat that really links the two is Wisdom.
No matter what combination you come up with, I highly doubt you'll create one that is "better" than a straight-up wizard, even with the Spellbook and Implement Mastery at level 1 (one of them coming through the Hybrid Talent.) It will play differently than a standard wizard, but I can't see how it would be overpowered and therefore "I have no reason to play a regular wizard anymore." Your combination would no longer fill the controller role that the wizard does naturally. (To be completely honest, I think even if I got what I wanted my character would be more gimped than it is now with swordmage multiclassed in. I'd still like to do it though, because I want Swordbond --which I have via feat-- coupled with some of the Swordmage powers, which would gimp out my spellbook, but would be more for "coolness" points than anything else, considering I'd be dead if I got too close to melee very often.)
Can you come up with a combination of Hybrids using the wizard that is any more broken than could be found with other Hybrid mixes? I'm pretty sure I could make some nasty combos including the Swordmage and Fighter if I included Intelligent Blademaster, much better than the Wizard/Swordmage. Again, I'm willing to listen, but please answer my queries because they're significant to the conversation. In every thread, they're ignored, and that's not furthering discussion.
Ice Storm is Int vs. Fort. On a hit, you deal 2d8 +Int modifier damage and immobilize the target. On a miss you get half damage, and it's slowed. You turn all that terrain difficult, but it's difficult for allies too (which I've found makes my fellow party members are very happy to have to deal with. )
You slow on a miss and the terrain is difficult; even if you miss a creature, he still only gets one move per move action. He's stuck there for a while, which is what the power is for. You can either just leave those enemies out of the fight for a few turns while you focus on beating on whoever you left out of the area or the fighter can charge in and take advantage of the fact that enemies can't shift away to keep everyone even more stuck than usual. Since you get to choose where the difficult terrain goes, you get to pick a spot that benefits you.
AlioTheFool wrote:
A fighter has Thicket of Blades at the same level. It's Str vs. AC. On a hit, you deal 3[W] +Str modifier damage and the target is slowed.
If the fighter has a regular Greatsword, that's 3d10 +Str. Average damage would be, say, 18 (+3 modifier for Str.)? Average damage for the Ice Storm would be 7 (+3 modifier for Int.) or 5 on a miss. The Ice Storm needs to hit 3 different targets or miss 4 to get the same total damage output as a hit from ToB. What separates these powers is role. The fighter is supposed to be hitting one standard enemy while the wizard is going after groups of weaker minions.
You're comparing a power that affects 8 squares and inflicts slow on a hit with nothing on a miss to 49 squares of immobilize on a hit, slow on a miss, and difficult terrain regardless (which makes slow even worse). Damage isn't the point of the power (keeping enemies out of the fight is), but your damage calculations are pretty far off. Any 9th level character is going to have a minimum +7 to damage (+5 stat, +2 implement/weapon); ToB would be 3d10+7, average 23.5 per hit, 0 per miss. Ice Storm would be 2d8+7, average 16 per hit, 8 per miss. So all Ice Storm needs is a hit and a miss per ToB hit, or 3 hits per 2 ToB hits, to beat ToB at damage, too; it also has 6x the area to get targets in. If you're using this power to clear minions, you're doing it wrong. You have at-will powers that can clear minions. Getting minions in it too is great and all, but the purpose of this power is to keep powerful melee opponents from joining the fight for a few rounds.
AlioTheFool wrote:
Every class is defined by both their powers and their class features. The powers support their roles, and those class features are there to supplement those powers. The wizard's powers are supplemented by daily flexibility provided by a spellbook. The fighter's is supplemented by the ability to mark or stop an enemy from moving away. Not to mention, Fighter Weapon Talent is an "always on" ability, whereas Arcane Implement Mastery gets one round of work, once per encounter.
I never claimed they don't use both; the wizard is just at the other end of the spectrum from a fighter or rogue. Fighters and rogues are mostly defined by their features and supported by their powers, where wizards are mostly defined by their powers and supported by their features.
AlioTheFool wrote:
No, I'm saying Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only features that matter to me. And there is a mighty big difference there. (Especially considering that there are a number of people who say they want Cantrips.)
They're the only features that affect combat power. Cantrips are fun roleplaying things, IM and SB are the only features that boost what you can do in a fight (through direct power boosts and through the ability to prepare for a specific foe, respectively).
AlioTheFool wrote:
But before you say I'm just being greedy when I say that, consider the following:
Ritual Casting is available to any class, via feat, as long as they are trained in Religion or Arcana. That's not exactly an exclusive thing to wizards, so it shouldn't be considered for a Hybrid Talent.
Agreed, and I don't think it was ever under debate.
AlioTheFool wrote:
As for Cantrips, if you made Cantrips a Hybrid Talent along with Implement Mastery (which people are highly overvaluing for a one round bonus once per fight) and gave wizards the Spellbook for free, only someone who was truly dedicated to a wizard build (and just wanted to grab a few "replacement" powers from another class) would bother to hybrid a wizard at all. And I doubt most of them would take Cantrips.
No optimizer would take cantrips, but any optimizer that wanted to make a wizard and could get both spellbook and implement mastery for a single feat (that is, SB for free and IM for a feat) would jump at the chance to add some class features from another class if it just meant giving up cantrips and rituals. IM is hardly a one round bonus once per fight; staff gives you a constant defensive bonus in addition to the once per encounter boost. Orb inflicts an ongoing save penalty that can potentially last the entire encounter. Wand, while once per encounter, only needs to be activated when you really need it (when a good power misses an important target); turning a miss into a hit in those situations is huge and can well leave a multiround effect on a target that would otherwise be spared. While not necessary for a wizard to perform his role (like sneak attack is necessary for a rogue to perform his), they are each significant boosts.
AlioTheFool wrote:
A Hybrid wizard, even mixing with Warden for the hit points would still start with less HP than a standard wizard. So he's already weaker. If he has Spellbook and takes Implement Mastery, he has cloth armor. Plus, the only stat that really links the two is Wisdom.
Your math is wrong again; wizards get 10+con hp at level one and 4 hp per level, wizard/wardens get 13+con at level one and 5 hp per level. The way hybrid hp are calculated wizards will always end up with at least as many hit points as a hybrid because there's no class with lower starting hp or hp per level than wizards. Noting that you have your math wrong there, there's no reason to point out that warden|wizard is a bad combination; there are plenty of bad hybrid combinations, generally when you have classes that don't share primaries or a primary and secondary.
AlioTheFool wrote:
No matter what combination you come up with, I highly doubt you'll create one that is "better" than a straight-up wizard, even with the Spellbook and Implement Mastery at level 1 (one of them coming through the Hybrid Talent.) It will play differently than a standard wizard, but I can't see how it would be overpowered and therefore "I have no reason to play a regular wizard anymore." Your combination would no longer fill the controller role that the wizard does naturally. (To be completely honest, I think even if I got what I wanted my character would be more gimped than it is now with swordmage multiclassed in. I'd still like to do it though, because I want Swordbond --which I have via feat-- coupled with some of the Swordmage powers, which would gimp out my spellbook, but would be more for "coolness" points than anything else, considering I'd be dead if I got too close to melee very often.)
Can you come up with a combination of Hybrids using the wizard that is any more broken than could be found with other Hybrid mixes? I'm pretty sure I could make some nasty combos including the Swordmage and Fighter if I included Intelligent Blademaster, much better than the Wizard/Swordmage. Again, I'm willing to listen, but please answer my queries because they're significant to the conversation. In every thread, they're ignored, and that's not furthering discussion.
You wouldn't need Intelligent Blademaster as a swordmage/fighter, because you'd have to have a decent strength for your fighter powers. IB only works on basic attacks.
As for hybrid wizards that would be better than full wizards with your proposed setup: staff wizard|shielding swordmage gets more hit points, enhancing the defensive aspect staff wizards already have. They can use swords as implements, removing the need for Arcane Implement Proficiency if they want to wield a cunning weapon as an implement (meaning, even with hybrid talent, this is feat neutral). In addition to control powers, they can mark someone and then avoid them, inflicting a penalty to hit and damage on them. They do give up some control attack powers (though many swordmage powers have some minor control aspects), but get some ways to deal with close opponents and some teleportation. If they're not giving up any important wizard class features, they're strictly better than wizards.
Orb wizard|invokers get access to an entirely new set of control powers and a covenant manifestation that boosts the use of those powers.
Orb wizard|clerics get an encounter minor action healing power and a boost to all healing powers based on wisdom. Several cleric powers can be used for control (blade barrier isn't as good as wall of fire, but can do in a pinch; astral storm is pretty badass even if it's competing with legion's hold; and so on) or can be used to let the wizard grant saves or buff allies, letting the wizard debuff enemies while buffing and canceling debuffs on allies.
Those are just a few off the top of my head; since any stat can be secondary for wizards (even strength, with a genasi wizard), there are a lot of ways a straight wizard can be boosted by class features if he doesn't have to give up any important features of his own. The issue isn't whether you can find a better thing to pair with swordmage than wizard, it's whether a hybrid wizard is better than a straight wizard.
As for Cantrips, if you made Cantrips a Hybrid Talent along with Implement Mastery (which people are highly overvaluing for a one round bonus once per fight) and gave wizards the Spellbook for free, only someone who was truly dedicated to a wizard build (and just wanted to grab a few "replacement" powers from another class) would bother to hybrid a wizard at all. And I doubt most of them would take Cantrips.
We'll continue to point out that this doesn't support your argument, but works against it. Saying that Spellbook and Implement Mastery are all that is important doesn't mean the Hybrid Wizard should always get them - it means it should be hard for him to get both of them, so as note to be simply better than a standard wizard.
Again, I return to my earlier suggestion - give Cantrips for free, have Spellbook and Implement Mastery available via Hybrid Talent. That makes them options for whomever needs them, prevents someone from getting both without giving up their Paragon Path, and ensures the hybrid wizard doesn't simply trivialize the standard wizard.
AlioTheFool wrote:
A Hybrid wizard, even mixing with Warden for the hit points would still start with less HP than a standard wizard. So he's already weaker. If he has Spellbook and takes Implement Mastery, he has cloth armor. Plus, the only stat that really links the two is Wisdom.
Why... why does he have less HP than a standard wizard?
Standard Wizard: 10+Con, +4/level. Wizard/Warden: 13+Con, +5/level.
I don't think any combination results in a wizard losing hp by going hybrid.
And yes, he only gets cloth armor. Just like a standard wizard...
AlioTheFool wrote:
No matter what combination you come up with, I highly doubt you'll create one that is "better" than a straight-up wizard, even with the Spellbook and Implement Mastery at level 1 (one of them coming through the Hybrid Talent.) It will play differently than a standard wizard, but I can't see how it would be overpowered and therefore "I have no reason to play a regular wizard anymore." Your combination would no longer fill the controller role that the wizard does naturally. (To be completely honest, I think even if I got what I wanted my character would be more gimped than it is now with swordmage multiclassed in. I'd still like to do it though, because I want Swordbond --which I have via feat-- coupled with some of the Swordmage powers, which would gimp out my spellbook, but would be more for "coolness" points than anything else, considering I'd be dead if I got too close to melee very often.)
You seem to be completely dismissing the Swordmage's Aegis - something you can't easily get outside of Hybrid. Giving that freely to a character who can toss it on someone early on - and then stay at the back of the combat using Control powers to keep enemies from getting to him - is extremely effective. It is actually a very powerful complement, since unlike other marks, it requires no effort to maintain - and can cripple an enemy's ability to hurt your allies.
So a swordmage/Wizard with decent Int and Con gets quite good use out of it, and can make good use of Staff of Defense, Shield and similar powers to give themselves the defensive edge they need when enemies do come looking for them. Their base AC isn't great - but one feat for Leather Armor, plus their naturally good Int, and suddenly they aren't all that shabby.
So yeah... a wizard with a free Aegis is just better, in general, than that same wizard without it. Since what you are giving up to get it - a feat, a skill, and rituals - doesn't compare to full access to another entire role that you can perform while still providing full contribution at your normal role. Not even counting all the other benefits you get (better stats, swords as implements, etc).
Now, there is the other 'cost' - the restriction of having at least one power come from each hybrid class. So compared to the pure wizard, the hybrid has to have 1 Swordmage At-Will, 1 Encounter, 1 Daily, and 1 Utility. So, what are our options there:
At-Will: Sword Burst is an easy option. An area effect attack that only hits enemies? Seems a pretty good fit - it requires being in close, admittedly, but this guy can easily have enough tricks to occasionally get in close. And sometimes you can't avoid getting caught in melee - having good options once in there is quite valuable.
Encounter: Dimensional Vortex, at level 3, is pretty much just awesome. Save an ally from being hit by an attack, while teleporting an enemy elsewhere and having it attack a friend? As an immediate interrupt? Against what tends to be the easiest defense to attack? I'm sure a wizard can easily put this to good use.
Daily: Warding Flourish presents an interesting option at level 1 - an attack that flat-out prevents two enemies from moving adjacent to your allies. That seems very useful to a controller. Other options at level 5 include the ability to get another Aegis up for an encounter (Shielding Fire), or give an enemy vulnerability for an entire encounter (Elemental Foible). But I will concede a loss of power here - Daily's for the Wizard really shine, and swordmage can't quite compare.
Utility: On the other hand, we have some excellent options here, including stances to boost our defenses for an encounter, or the ability to gain resistances for an encounter, or access to a free save each fight... or the ability to give all enemies penalties to save against your effects, for an entire encounter.
Now, I'm not going to say all of these are easy improvements on the wizard's selection of powers... but aside from Dailies, they all are perfectly effective options. And having one single Daily that isn't as potent... seems a small price to pay for full access to another role that you can perform at the same time as your own.
I mean, it does sound like a poor fit for your own character - but that is because you seem more interested in the flashy bits of the swordmage, rather than the defending aspect itself. And so you seem to be giving very little weight to how powerful gaining the Aegis can be.
Your character, honestly, seems very focused on the sheer versatility of a wizard - which is the one thing it still retains over its hybrid. Given that multiclassing already seems to get you everything you are looking for, it certainly seems a better route for your character than the hybrid rules.
AlioTheFool wrote:
Can you come up with a combination of Hybrids using the wizard that is any more broken than could be found with other Hybrid mixes? I'm pretty sure I could make some nasty combos including the Swordmage and Fighter if I included Intelligent Blademaster, much better than the Wizard/Swordmage. Again, I'm willing to listen, but please answer my queries because they're significant to the conversation. In every thread, they're ignored, and that's not furthering discussion.
Remember: It does not matter if the Hybrid Fighter/Swordmage is as good as the Swordmage/Wizard. What matters is if the Fighter/Swordmage is simply better than the Fighter or the Swordmage.
Yes, we want to make sure no one combination is a game-breaker. But the issue at hand is making sure the Hybrid classes don't blatantly outshine the classes they are drawing from. Both of those need to be kept in mind to ensure these rules end up balanced and playable.
Okay, these constant walls of text are getting hard to follow, but I see where you guys are coming from I guess. I still maintain that a Wizard should get his Spellbook as his direct feature. I guess the sacrifice would then have to be Implement Mastery, but then what class feature would he have available for the Hybrid Talent? And again, I highly doubt anyone (not just optimizers) are going to take Cantrips as a Hybrid Talent.
I guess making both available as Hybrid Talents is another compromise. I could still get what I'm looking for from a Wizard/Swordmage, though it would take an entire tier to get there.
As for my math, sorry. I totally suck at math, plus I was at work trying to read the Hybrid article and respond to the thread without my boss seeing.
I still maintain that Cantrips is worthless as the class feature though. I'm not budging on that. Maybe give Ritual Caster for free instead? I mean, there's a thread in the 4e controller forum that discusses 101 uses for Cantrips, and it even starts off by talking about how Cantrips aren't of much use during combat. Shouldn't all class features be useful in combat?
Hey, you complained that your queries weren't being answered, we just answered them in great detail
Non optimizers could certainly end up taking Cantrips if it were a hybrid talent option; some people take Linguist, after all. Cantrips is a fun wizardy thing to have, even if it's not helpful in combat.
There are class features that aren't useful in combat; Ritual Caster is one of them, so I don't see how that as a class feature would help the situation. I've actually seen Cantrips be used in combat (light has a couple of different uses- keeping you from being reliant on a light source and keeping a lurker from using stealth); rituals' casting times makes them an entirely out of combat thing.
It doesn't really matter if you think Cantrips are worthless; they're thrown in so that hybrid wizards get a fun wizardy thing without making a single class wizard obsolete.
The 4 class features of a wizard are Arcane Implement Master, cantrips, Ritual Casting and spellbook. Under the existing hybrid wizard rules, you can obtain AIM (via Hybrid Talent), cantrips, and Ritual Casting (via Ritual Caster). If you allow players to obtain spellbook via a built-in class feature or via Hybrid Talent, then you get everything that is mostly important to a single classed wizard and other benefits on top. Missing out on cantrips is not a very big deal.
I think that there should be some reason for being a single classed wizard and cantrips is not good enough of a reason. Spellbook is a good enough reason to be a single classed wizard and not a big hinderance for hybrid or multiclass wizards not to have.
Anyway, there's actually a problem with having AIM without a Spellbook. It makes the Improved Tome of Readiness feat useless. Now that may or may not be seen as a big issue (for my character it is) but it is an issue.
So is Cantrips, with AIM and Spellbook as Hybrid Talents okay?
Here's something that just occurred to me. What if there were a Hybrid version of Spellbook as the class feature, and AIM as the Hybrid Talent?
Spellbook
You possess a spellbook, a book full of mystic lore in which you store your rituals and your daily and utility spells.
Rituals: Your book contains no rituals. You may however add rituals if you take the Ritual Caster feat. Any ritual you add must be your level or lower.
Daily and Utility Spells: Your spellbook also holds your daily and utility spells. You begin knowing two daily spells, one of which is your backup spell. Each time you gain a level that lets you select a daily spell or a utility spell, you may exchange this backup spell for one of your new level or lower.
After an extended rest, you can prepare a number of daily and utility spells according to what you can cast per day for your level. You can’t prepare the same spell twice.
If you replace a spell because of gaining a level or through retraining, the previous spell vanishes from your spellbook and is replaced by the new spell.
Capacity: A typical spellbook has 128 pages. Each spell takes up 1 page. A ritual takes up a number of pages equal to its level.
In this case, you only have one spell that you can "switch out" each day. Maybe it would be okay to give one backup daily attack, and one utility backup?
It would still have that feel that wizards could memorize based on what they figured was coming. It would just take more work to decide each level what was worth keeping. It would work nicely with the Improved Tomebound feat though. Again, you'd just have to plan ahead at your level, rather than every day.
I'd say so; I actually hope that wizards puts spellbook in as a hybrid talent option in the final version.
You're right that IToR doesn't work by RAW if you don't have a spellbook, but a reasonable fix is to treat it as normal tome of readiness: choose a daily or utility you don't know and have it available to be switched out. You wouldn't be able to switch the available power every day like a normal wizard, but it's still a reasonable boost.
Edit: You posted again while I was writing that, it was in response to your first post. I could see a hybrid spellbook with only one extra power to switch out as reasonable; having a spellbook option for every daily and utility would still be a bonus that would draw some people to single classed wizards in that case.
Anyway, there's actually a problem with having AIM without a Spellbook. It makes the Improved Tome of Readiness feat useless. Now that may or may not be seen as a big issue (for my character it is) but it is an issue.
Good point. A hybrid version of spellbook to enable IToR would probably be in order.
I'd say so; I actually hope that wizards puts spellbook in as a hybrid talent option in the final version.
That's like making the Swordmage sword bond feature a hybrid talent option, it's too bloody weak to spend the most critically important choice a hybrid can make for. They should just bite the bullet and toss a non ritual casting version of the spellbook in as a base class feature. Hybrid Wizards need to start with a little more than something that can be replaced by a cheap pair of magic gloves.
And hell, Eberron elves (and probably half elves) can get a feat that gives ANY arcane class a spellbook for their utility spells, and those are the only things a spellbook is handy for in the first place.
So, I've been playing around with Hybrid Characters and I've found two major bugs that need to be fixed.
1. Hybrid Characters are under skilled. D&D as a game can easily be divided into 3 parts: the Combat System, Skill System, and Role-playing. Out of those 3 parts, only two of them have definable mechanics; and skills.
4th edition character classes focus almost entirely on the combat system, Hybrid Characters are no exception. Giving a character less to offer in terms of skill shifts the focus of the character onto combat even more.
An effective alternative to the current skill selection would be to treat the amount of trained skills in the same manner that hitpoints are treated. You would simply divide total amount of trained skills in half. If the class you are hybridizing has a bonus skill that skill should be included in total amount of skills. Hybridized classes that normally have a preset bonus skill have said skill added to a list of "Key Skills" Any hybrid character must pick at least 1 key skill from either classes list of key skills if applicable.
For example a Swordmage normally gets a 3 trained skills + Arcana. So (3+1) / 2 = 2 Therefore a hybrid Swordmage gets 2 skills and Arcana is added to the pool of trained skills that a Hybrid character must choose at least one skill from.
Here is revised sample entry:
Swordmage HYBRID CLASS TRAITS Role: Defender Power Source: Arcane Key Ability: Intelligence Secondary Abilities: Strength, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Weapon Proficiencies: Implements: Bonus to Defense:
Hit Points at 1st Level: Hit Points per Level Gained: Healing Surges per Day:
So a Hybrid Ranger|Swordmage would gain 4.5 skills rounded down to a total of four skills, one of which must be Arcana, Dungeoneering, or Nature.
These rules seem complicated but, players will never see the rules just the total trained skills and the key skill requirement. So its player friendly too. Just remember, the skill system has very little to do with combat. Nerfing a player's skills nerfs not only the player, but the DM, and the game as well. A change here is definitely needed.
2. You shouldn't have to spend a feat to gain your classes power riders. While I agree that the Sorcerer and Rogue should have to spend the Hybrid Talent feat for Sorcerous Power and Rogue Talent respectively. A character that wants to build a Rogue|Sorcerer has to Paragon Multiclass to in order to get Power Rider effects from both classes. I agree that a Sorcerer|Rogue shouldn't be both an artful dodger and a storm sorcerer but it still needs its riders. The warlock is an excellent model for how it should work for a hybrid character. The warlock automatically gets an Eldritch Pact but it does not get a pact boon. Other classes should take note of this effect.
So, I've been playing around with Hybrid Characters and I've found two major bugs that need to be fixed.
1. Hybrid Characters are under skilled. D&D as a game can easily be divided into 3 parts: the Combat System, Skill System, and Role-playing. Out of those 3 parts, only two of them have definable mechanics; and skills.
4th edition character classes focus almost entirely on the combat system, Hybrid Characters are no exception. Giving a character less to offer in terms of skill shifts the focus of the character onto combat even more.
An effective alternative to the current skill selection would be to treat the amount of trained skills in the same manner that hitpoints are treated. You would simply divide total amount of trained skills in half. If the class you are hybridizing has a bonus skill that skill should be included in total amount of skills. Hybridized classes that normally have a preset bonus skill have said skill added to a list of "Key Skills" Any hybrid character must pick at least 1 key skill from either classes list of key skills if applicable.
For example a Swordmage normally gets a 3 trained skills + Arcana. So (3+1) / 2 = 2 Therefore a hybrid Swordmage gets 2 skills and Arcana is added to the pool of trained skills that a Hybrid character must choose at least one skill from.
Here is revised sample entry:
Swordmage HYBRID CLASS TRAITS Role: Defender Power Source: Arcane Key Ability: Intelligence Secondary Abilities: Strength, Constitution
Armor Proficiencies: Weapon Proficiencies: Implements: Bonus to Defense:
Hit Points at 1st Level: Hit Points per Level Gained: Healing Surges per Day:
So a Hybrid Ranger|Swordmage would gain 4.5 skills rounded down to a total of four skills, one of which must be Arcana, Dungeoneering, or Nature.
These rules seem complicated but, players will never see the rules just the total trained skills and the key skill requirement. So its player friendly too. Just remember, the skill system has very little to do with combat. Nerfing a player's skills nerfs not only the player, but the DM, and the game as well. A change here is definitely needed.
2. You shouldn't have to spend a feat to gain your classes power riders. While I agree that the Sorcerer and Rogue should have to spend the Hybrid Talent feat for Sorcerous Power and Rogue Talent respectively. A character that wants to build a Rogue|Sorcerer has to Paragon Multiclass to in order to get Power Rider effects from both classes. I agree that a Sorcerer|Rogue shouldn't be both an artful dodger and a storm sorcerer but it still needs its riders. The warlock is an excellent model for how it should work for a hybrid character. The warlock automatically gets an Eldritch Pact but it does not get a pact boon. Other classes should take note of this effect.
I think these two things are my main problems and solutions for them as well. Make sure to email your suggestions in as this is how WotC is taking in information and feedback.
I think these two things are my main problems and solutions for them as well. Make sure to email your suggestions in as this is how WotC is taking in information and feedback.
I definitely think that they should have kept the 1 skill most classes get when they choose a class and then 3 they train from the combination of the skill lists. This would mean a Rogue/Ranger Hybrid would get Stealth/Thievery and a choice of Dungeoneering/Nature +3 skills from their combined skill lists.
I thought about that too, but that idea breaks down. Lets say you are building a Hybrid Paladin|Sorcerer, you would be allowed a total of 4 skills, two of which would automatically be Arcana and Religion, leaving them with a choice of only two skills. Whats even worse is both of these skills are Intelligence based and since neither class uses Intelligence as a Primary or Secondary ability score it effectively makes half of the characters skills useless.
Also, who is the best person to email at Wizards? I'd actually like to submit this idea before its too late to make a change, but I want to at least give these to suggestions a chance.
I definitely think that they should have kept the 1 skill most classes get when they choose a class and then 3 they train from the combination of the skill lists. This would mean a Rogue/Ranger Hybrid would get Stealth/Thievery and a choice of Dungeoneering/Nature +3 skills from their combined skill lists.
The only problem with this way is that you can get certain hybrids with more skills than other people. For example, a Cleric|Wizard would have Religion, Arcana and three other skills. Those two classes in general get only four skills. My original thought was this as well, but I realized that it wouldn't be quite what the developers had in mind. I also thought of an idea where classes would have a required skill and you would get one of those for free and have to spend on of your three on the other if you had more than one. For example, a Wizard would need to take arcana and a cleric would need to take religion, but would get one of those free (so they have four total skills and both required).
However, out of all the ideas I thought of I found that it would be simpler to do what Jack of all Trades posted and it fits in better with the whole hybrid system as well.
I thought about that too, but that idea breaks down. Lets say you are building a Hybrid Paladin|Sorcerer, you would be allowed a total of 4 skills, two of which would automatically be Arcana and Religion, leaving them with a choice of only two skills. Whats even worse is both of these skills are Intelligence based and since neither class uses Intelligence as a Primary or Secondary ability score it effectively makes half of the characters skills useless.
Also, who is the best person to email at Wizards? I'd actually like to submit this idea before its too late to make a change, but I want to at least give these to suggestions a chance.
You email it to dndinsider@wizards.com and make sure the subject line is Hybrid Playtest Feedback or Hybrid Playtest 2 Feedback (I would think either would work, but I don't know for sure).
EDIT: Sorry I had that wrong. According to the Wilden Playtest the subject line should be the book its going to be in so in this case it should read Playtest: PHB3
Sorry if I missed something and this a dumb question, but what are the rules governing the "Power Source" of a Hybrid Character? Are they assumed to use both?, or does one gain preference over the other?
There are a couple of things I have noticed with the current round of Hybrid rules.
The first is that Swordmage Warding does not include Leather Armor Proficiency. This is different from the other defensive talents, Barbarian Armored Agility and Warden's Armored Might, that include both the defensive bonuses and armor proficiencies of that class. Not including Leather Armor Proficiency hurts Swordmage|Wizard hybrids, a natural hybrid pair. Having to spend a feat on Leather Armor is hard for a low-level SM|Wiz.
There is justifiable fear of the super-high AC capable by combining hybrid talents, such as Armor of Faith with Swordmage Warding. I think this is better dealt with by typing these as class bonuses to AC, so they cannot stack, rather than by not including Leather Armor Proficiency with Swordmage Warding.
The second things I've noticed is that a hybrid Fighter|Ranger with Tempest Technique has average at-will damage (with Twin Strike) that is way higher than other Strikers, at least at low levels.
Here are some examples; they are all for level 2 with a +1 weapon against AC 20. A good benchmark for Striker damage is a Greatbow-using Ranger with Weapon Focus(Bows), and they can expect about 12.27 DPR. An Urgrosh-using Tempest Technique Fighter with Eladrin Soldier with Weapon Expertise beats this with about 13.4 DPR, and it is the current reigning champion of low-level DPR. However, a hybrid Fighter|Ranger with Tempest Technique and Eladrin Soldier has an average DPR of 15.4 with Twin Strike using an Urgrosh. This is a significant amount more than what should be expected of a Striker of this level.
This could be a problem with the Tempest Technique as a Hybrid Feature, and perhaps its bonuses should only apply to Fighter powers. However, the problem may have more to do with the brokenness of Tempest Technique in general, or the current state of double weapons, than with the hybrid rules.
The single class restriction in 4ed was one of the worst features of the new system - a throwback to the 2ed days after the juicy tastiness of character building in 3ed. Hybrids are a good step in the right direction, but I'm not confident they'll ever be balanced with the straitjackets that are called classes in 4ed. If nothing else, they're like getting 4 feats for free.
Anyway, there's actually a problem with having AIM without a Spellbook. It makes the Improved Tome of Readiness feat useless. Now that may or may not be seen as a big issue (for my character it is) but it is an issue.
So is Cantrips, with AIM and Spellbook as Hybrid Talents okay?
I tend to think Cantrips is a very poor base ability. As has been mentioned, it can be replicated with a cheap magic item. We're talking about a class that is already coming out of the box with the lowest armor and hit-point allowances, not to mention a pretty high likelyhood of needing to split stats, with anything besides an artificer or swordmage.
I think giving druid beastform as their (sole) hybrid trait is also kind of weak, but I'm not that familiar with the class.
And while I'm at it, I'll voice my impression that limiting the bonus of damage-adders (the warlock's curse, sneak attack, and hunter's quarry) goes a long way towards nullifying the point of a hybrid class when the class features are "fenced-off" from impacting the other half of their hybrid. Maybe the adder could be limited to the type of attack it applies to (sneak attack already has this; hunter's quarry and warlock's curse could apply to martial and arcane powers, respectively). Or, the damage could just be lowered (1d4 for quarry and curse, 2d4 for sneak attack). The problem with that, of course, is that hybriding a rogue/ranger (or a similar such striker/striker combination) would mean sacrificing a lot of class features to get approximately the same amount of extra damage.
And while I'm at it, I'll voice my impression that limiting the bonus of damage-adders (the warlock's curse, sneak attack, and hunter's quarry) goes a long way towards nullifying the point of a hybrid class when the class features are "fenced-off" from impacting the other half of their hybrid.
I disagree; they've said the goal of hybrids is to let characters cover the roles of both classes- just not at the same time. You have to choose between striker damage and defender, leader, or controller powers.
I tend to think Cantrips is a very poor base ability. As has been mentioned, it can be replicated with a cheap magic item. We're talking about a class that is already coming out of the box with the lowest armor and hit-point allowances, not to mention a pretty high likelyhood of needing to split stats, with anything besides an artificer or swordmage.
Well, the hybrid wizard|ranger player in my game really likes the Cantrips he gets with the hybrid wizard. He makes good use out of it.
And while I'm at it, I'll voice my impression that limiting the bonus of damage-adders (the warlock's curse, sneak attack, and hunter's quarry) goes a long way towards nullifying the point of a hybrid class when the class features are "fenced-off" from impacting the other half of their hybrid. Maybe the adder could be limited to the type of attack it applies to (sneak attack already has this; hunter's quarry and warlock's curse could apply to martial and arcane powers, respectively). Or, the damage could just be lowered (1d4 for quarry and curse, 2d4 for sneak attack). The problem with that, of course, is that hybriding a rogue/ranger (or a similar such striker/striker combination) would mean sacrificing a lot of class features to get approximately the same amount of extra damage.
A striker|striker hybrid already has some advantages over a single classed striker. It's just that the advantage is not applying extra damage from both hybrid classes on a consistent bases. If hybrid can do that, I'm sure many people would consider this extra damage stacking to be broken.
Hybrid striker|strikers have the advantage of flexibility. A ranger|rogue may try to deal sneak attack damage to his target using a rogue power. However, if he cannot gain combat advantage, he can still deal hunter's quarry damage by switching to a ranger power. A single classed rogue would be out of luck that round if he cannot gain combat advantage.
The single class restriction in 4ed was one of the worst features of the new system - a throwback to the 2ed days after the juicy tastiness of character building in 3ed. Hybrids are a good step in the right direction, but I'm not confident they'll ever be balanced with the straitjackets that are called classes in 4ed. If nothing else, they're like getting 4 feats for free.
Funny. I think that the class-based system in 4E is the biggest improvement over 3E. The biggest problem with 3E and even more so with 3.5 is that no one really wants to be a single classed character. Everyone is multiclassed. If no one wants to be single classed, then it indicates to me that there is a problem with single classed characters. In 4E, I see reasons to be single classed, reasons to be multiclassed and reasons to be hybrid characters. Each character build has different advantages and disadvantages that are more or less balanced.
Well, the hybrid wizard|ranger player in my game really likes the Cantrips he gets with the hybrid wizard. He makes good use out of it.
People can enjoy weak options. People played thieves and monks in 1e, after all. Some players could play a commoner with no powers and have fun. But the bottom line is, cantrips might have some clever applications, but it's not an option with teeth, and that's why it can replicated with a cheap magic item.
Hybrid striker|strikers have the advantage of flexibility. A ranger|rogue may try to deal sneak attack damage to his target using a rogue power. However, if he cannot gain combat advantage, he can still deal hunter's quarry damage by switching to a ranger power. A single classed rogue would be out of luck that round if he cannot gain combat advantage.
Now that's a pretty compelling argument. I'm somewhat ambivalent on the subject.
ChaosMage wrote:
I disagree; they've said the goal of hybrids is to let characters cover the roles of both classes- just not at the same time. You have to choose between striker damage and defender, leader, or controller powers.
Meh. Design goals aren't written in stone. What they say today they can reconsider tomorrow, and just about any design & development article that explains the evolution of a game element features such reconsiderations.
People can enjoy weak options. People played thieves and monks in 1e, after all. Some players could play a commoner with no powers and have fun. But the bottom line is, cantrips might have some clever applications, but it's not an option with teeth, and that's why it can replicated with a cheap magic item.
I would agree that the player in my group is likely in the minority. In any case, there aren't many class features left to give to a hybrid wizard. Single classed wizards should have something that only they get. So far, that ability is the Spellbook. If the class feature that is left for single classed wizards is Cantrips, then you can make the argument that there is little reason to be a single classed wizard. I think hybrid wizards are already pretty good as is from what I have seen from the ranger|wizard player. I don't think they need anything more.
Now that's a pretty compelling argument. I'm somewhat ambivalent on the subject.
The impression I got from the ranger|wizard hybrid is that flexibility is pretty powerful and useful. Sometimes he needs to deal with multiple targets and he uses a wizard power. Sometimes he want to take down a single target quickly and he uses his ranger power. It may only be one or two rounds in a combat where you use the other class's ability, but that one or two rounds can be significant.
Meh. Design goals aren't written in stone. What they say today they can reconsider tomorrow, and just about any design & development article that explains the evolution of a game element features such reconsiderations.
That is true. However, based on what I have seen, I feel that it is pretty sound. Giving flexibility to hybrids with limitations that a single classed character does not have seems to work out pretty well. What I think should be avoided is making hybrids simply better than single or multiclassed characters. Being able to consistently stack striker damage and/or other hybrid class features would make hybrids too good.
The "wizards have no class features" issue arises in the opposite direction too. Strikers often have a lot of class features (eg rogue or warlock), which means that "hybrid talent" doesn't grant them very much.
One issue where the hybrid system can be seen to break down is when you hybridise two of the same role. I might be picking the worst example, but consider a rogue/warlock.
As far as the basics go, you're down 1 skill. Which isn't a big issue. Beyond that, you gain a little flexibility: you can do +2d6 damage 1/round with a rogue power and sneak attack, or +1d6 1/round against a cursed target with a warlock power. So far so good. But then there's a laundry list of specials for each class, and you get one of them. The rogue/'lock gives up a lot of style to get a little flexibility in dealing striker bonus damage.
Conversely, it's actually possible to deal bonus damage twice per round, either by spending an action point or by using eldritch strike and gaining an extra MBA. (Incidentally, this was already possible with multiclassing, though only for 1-2 rounds).
Multiclassing gives the option to move powers around, albeit at a very steep feat cost. The hybrid rules make power movement a lot more flexible, but usually at a very steep cost in class features (unless you don't natively have these anyway). Is there a safe way to allow sharing of class features?
It occurred to me that a useful experiment might be to systematically analyze this statement:
When you combine two classes of the same role (such as fighter and paladin), you can expect to be about as effective in filling that role as a single-class character of the same role.
So I'm going to go down the list of roles and share my thoughts on how a single-role hybrid compares to a single-class character that fills that role.
Defenders Combinations that include Fighter, or to a lesser extent Warden, are pretty good, because their features trigger on opponents that are marked by you, regardless of how you marked them. The swordmage is also strong, because the only limitation is that you have to focus on one target at a time (Oath of Emnity-style). Only the paladin's mark is garbage--the paladin had a weak mark to begin with, and the hybrid version is even worse.
Winner: Hybrids, by a moderate margin.
Strikers Without exception, the striker hybrids only get their primary bonus damage/accuracy mechanism when using class powers. However, each striker class has a secondary means of increasing either damage or mobility--the avenger's censure, the rogue's tactics and weapon talent, the warlock's shadow walk and pact boon, etc. A hybrid can take at most one of these with Hybrid Talent, which still leaves them short. Even the best-built hybrid will have a hard time keeping up with a single-classed striker in both damage and mobility.
Winner: Single-classed, by a small margin.
Controllers Controllers are mainly about powers, not so much features. Covenant of Wrath is a notable exception, although it works best on a single-classed invoker anyway. The crappiness of getting only cantrips by being a hybrid wizard, or wild shape by being a hybrid druid who may or may not take any beast form powers, has been mentioned elsewhere. But the ability to fill the role of controller suffers little. Only the druid suffers a bit from not having a primal aspect to boost encounter powers.
Winner: Tie.
Leaders Before level 16, it's close. Hybrids lose at most minor aspects of their role--Bardic Virtue and Spirit Boon--which can be purchased back with Hybrid Talent. Their versatility helps them more than other single-role hybrids because "rescues" and many buffs are more situational than attacks. However, at level 16, a hybrid double-leader fails epically due to the lack of a third use per encounter of their class feature healing power.
Winner: Tie through level 15, single-classed by a landslide at level 16.
Overall verdict: The system's pretty good, but the healing power problem is a critical flaw. Defenders, especially fighter/other defender hybrids, threaten to break the system, but not by much. Strikers will be a viable choice, but not so much single-role strikers; striker/leaders, striker/controllers, and striker/defenders can be very strong options.
"Edison didn't succeed the first time he invented Benjamin Franklin, either." Albert the Alligator, Walt Kelly's Pogo Sunday Book
The Core Coliseum: test out your 4e builds and fight to the death.
The "wizards have no class features" issue arises in the opposite direction too. Strikers often have a lot of class features (eg rogue or warlock), which means that "hybrid talent" doesn't grant them very much.
Hybrid Wizards in this case grants the same thing as the Wizard Multiclass feat which is access to wizard powers. The interesting thing about controllers is that the powers of a controller is what is needed in order to be a controller. The class features of most strikers is what is needed in order to be a striker.
Hybrid Talent does give strikers useful class features. Warlocks can get the pact boon and rogues can get first strike.
One issue where the hybrid system can be seen to break down is when you hybridise two of the same role.
I think that it has more to due with the particular class combinations rather than role combinations. I found that a hybrid of a melee and ranged class do not work that well. When you're in melee, it is difficult to get good use out of your ranged powers and when you are at range, it is difficult to get good use out of your melee powers. Where you are in combat pretty well cuts you off from half of your powers. The range/range hybrid character did not have this problem as he was able to freely choose which hybrid powers he wanted to use with fewer restrictions.
Hybrids of the same role is not necessarily a problem. I've seen a hybrid fighter-paladin that used divine challenge to mark an extra creature. He has the luxury of choosing how to punish a marked enemy. Then there is a ranger/rogue that makes use of minor action attack powers in order to deal both sneak attack and hunter's quarry damage in the same round.
Multiclassing gives the option to move powers around, albeit at a very steep feat cost. The hybrid rules make power movement a lot more flexible, but usually at a very steep cost in class features (unless you don't natively have these anyway). Is there a safe way to allow sharing of class features?
When you multiclass, you are not limited to having class features interact only with class powers. This is the general advantage of multiclassing over hybrid characters. Hybrids allow unlimited use of class features of both classes instead of the limited (general once per encounter) use of the second class's features. If there is a general way to allow hybrids to use class features with non-class powers, then you've taken away one of the advantages that multiclassing has over hybrids.
Leaders Before level 16, it's close. Hybrids lose at most minor aspects of their role--Bardic Virtue and Spirit Boon--which can be purchased back with Hybrid Talent. Their versatility helps them more than other single-role hybrids because "rescues" and many buffs are more situational than attacks. However, at level 16, a hybrid double-leader fails epically due to the lack of a third use per encounter of their class feature healing power.
Winner: Tie through level 15, single-classed by a landslide at level 16.
I would add that the hybrid leader-leader has one minor advantage over a single classed leader. A single classed leader is unable to use the Word feature more than once per round. He is even unable to do this with the use of an action point. A leader-leader hybrid can use both word powers in the same round. If you have two party members near death, a leader-leader can heal them both. A single classed leader can only heal once and must wait until the next round to heal again. I'd give hybrids a slight advantage until level 15.
Overall verdict: The system's pretty good, but the healing power problem is a critical flaw.
I don't think that the lack of a third use of a Word power is as big a flaw as you. I would think that the advantage of access to two classes worth of leader powers and features would be of some advantage and appeal that would be worth losing that third use of a Word power.
Hybrid Wizards in this case grants the same thing as the Wizard Multiclass feat which is access to wizard powers.
Actually, the wizard multiclass feat doesn't give much access to wizard powers; to get that you need to spend more feats. The hybrid gets near-full access without any feat cost, but their class features are stripped away.
The fewer and less critical your class features, the less this cost.
Stuntman wrote:
The interesting thing about controllers is that the powers of a controller is what is needed in order to be a controller. The class features of most strikers is what is needed in order to be a striker.
Hybrid Talent does give strikers useful class features. Warlocks can get the pact boon and rogues can get first strike.
Rephrase that slightly: hybrid talent gives strikers a useful class feature.
I think the key issue is how hybridisation synergises with class design.
Most classes gain either heavy armour or a class defense feature. If you hybridise two heavy armour classes or two low-defense light armour classes (which is basically wizard or sorc) then you'll be OK. Otherwise, you get neither class's special defense boost (heavy armour is a special defense boost for this purpose).
Channel divinity is nice, but it's not a make or break power. Thus clerics, who get CD plus heavily boosted healing powers, give up a lot less than warlords, bards, or shamen, who gain a lot of their effect through class features.
Similarly, you run into real problems with any class whose most striking ability is a class feature (eg ranger, warlock). Without PMC, it becomes impossible to be a "real ranger" and a "real warlock". Even then, you might still only end up with a small subset of the classes hallmarks.
Where this becomes a little "insulting" (in the sense of "adding insult to injury") is that characters using conventional multiclassing can sometimes access more of their multiclass features (via multiple 'multiclass' feats) than a character that is theoretically part of that class.
What I suspect is needed is better classification of class features.
For example, granting access to only one special defense boost (Armour of Faith, Swordmage Warding, Rogue Tactics (AD), Shadow Walk, ...) is probably a good idea, and even then needs to be limited so that abilities that are supposed to calibrate for non-Int/Dex primaries (Armour of Faith) can't easily be stacked with them.
Other options might be limited by accesibility, but can also be limited by access. For example, at-will powers that require immediate actions are inherently self-limiting.
Finally, I don't think enough use has been made of X/encounter restrictions on always-on powers. The current 'commanding presence (hybrid)' talent is a little insulting - you pay a feat to activate it, but even then it only works 1/encounter (when a normal warlord would trigger it 2-3 times an encounter, in a party of 5). It would seem to capture the 'flavour' to give these abilities out a lot more freely but with X/encounter restrictions. Pact boons, prime shot, combat superiority, bardic virtue, censure, artful dodger would all fit easily into this paradigm.
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