I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion based on what I'm asking for: switching out Cantrips for Spellbooks as the single class feature.
But that's not what I'm saying at all. I asked for Spellbook to replace Cantrips. Arcane Implement Mastery would still be subject to the Hybrid Talent feat, which you can only take once. Therefore, you can choose to get that feature, or a feature from your other class. The only way you can gain an class feature from wizard and your other class is via sacrificing your Paragon Path.
I'm not advocating simply smashing the Hybrid system simply for the sake of doing so.
So, with your suggestion in mind, let's compare to a Hybrid Wizard with Hybrid Talent for Arcane Implement Mastery.
Wizard/Swordmage has 12+Con hp, +5 hp/level, 7+Con Surges, +2 Will, 3 Skills, Arcane Implement Mastery, Spellbook, Swordbond, Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid), Proficiency with Cloth armor, Simple Melee and Simple Ranged, Military Light and Heavy Blades, Orbs, Staffs, Wands, and the ability to use Light and Heavy Blades as Implements.
So, we are losing: Cantrips, 1 skill, Ritual Casting, and 1 feat.
In return we gain: Hitpoints (equivalent to double the amount given by the Toughness feat), a Healing Surge, a significant number of weapon proficiencies, access to swords as implements, a relatively minor class feature (Swordbond), plus a core Defender class feature at almost full power (Aegis, losing only the ability to switch it from an existing target to a new one).
That seems a pretty clear upgrade in power. Not even accounting for having two entire classes worth of powers to select from.
Now, to be fair - the main issue here is simply that a class that inherently has low stats (hp) and proficiencies is going to gain an exceptional benefit from te hybrid rules. Even with switching Spellbook for Cantrips, it still seems a pretty strong upgrade - but in this case, I think the loss of a Spellbook is a slightly stronger loss in terms of raw power, and does help to at least somewhat balance the exchange. As you mentioned, you yourself have little need for Cantrips or Rituals. At which point you are only giving up 1 skill and 1 feat in order to have a wizard who is suddenly just better in almost every way.
On the other hand, it looks like more a loss going in the other direction: Comparing a Swordmage to a Swordmage/Wizard taking Hybrid Talent for Swordbond, you are losing 3 hp + 1 hp/level, 1 Healing Surge, Leather Armor Proficiency, 1 skill and 1 feat, and in return gaining... Cantrips. And, more alluring, access to Wizard powers - which are potent, but it does seem a somewhat lopsided trade. But if you improve that trade, than all Hybrid Wizards end up pretty clearly better than basic Wizards - and that isn't a good thing.
It is simply an unfortunate result of the hybrid system and the base wizard design itself. But that said, these builds still remain competent ones when compared to the non-hybrid swordmage and wizard. And that is really the important part.
You're admitting that wizards get short-changed on the class features, but since they can pick up a class feature or two from other classes, just like every other Hybrid can, they'd be overpowered? I don't get it. How then aren't other classes overpowered while getting the power to grab those additional class features?
The long and short of it? Other classes simply have more class features available to be split. I can give a Fighter Combat Challenge up front, and leave the excellent Fighter Weapon Talent available only via Hybrid Talent - and even once he has taken that, he has other potent abilities (armor profociencies, Combat Superiority) that he has to leave behind. That simply doesn't work for Wizards. It does have hp or armor proficiencies to leave behind - all it can do, raw number wise, is gain. So it gets short-changed on class features instead - gains one of its minor features up front, has its major feature available via Hybrid Talent, and doesn't get access to its other features at all. That seems to be the trade it has to make for otherwise improving in just about every way.
I understand your point, and I know that what I said is too overpowered, as I stated. That doesn't mean I don't think Wizards should continue to explore ways to allow cross-classing beyond multi-classing and hybrid classing (which it sounds like they are still doing according to that Design & Development article.)
I personally don't like the structure of the two current options, as-is. That doesn't make me right, it just makes me unwilling to use the two current methodologies to play my characters. I have character concepts in my head that can't be implemented via the current methods. I just hope that at some point I'll get to create them. (I'm not looking for an uber-powered character. Actually, I make terribly weak overall characters, no matter what game I'm playing, because I prefer to build characters to my character concept, rather than to maximize their effectiveness.)
Well, I'd certainly be eager to see other methods in the future as well. But I don't think any would - or should - allow you do what I think you are hoping for.
I mean, I do sympathize with your desire to have an easy way to bring your character together. But it sounds like your concept would only be fulfilled by having a character with all of the wizard features you feel are worthwhile (Spellbook, Arcane Implement Mastery), none of the ones you don't care about (Cantrips, Rituals), plus several Swordmage powers. In this case, there is a way to build that - but it is a feat intensive one. On the other hand, I'm not sure it shouldn't be - especially considering two of those feats (Eladrin Soldier and Implement Expertise) aren't fundamental to the build, but simply adding raw boosts to damage and accuracy on top of the other elements.
I definitely understand that the Spellbook is central to your character (as is the Arcane Implement Mastery). But if you can retain all the defining elements of the character as a wizard, while gaining the defining elements of another class for free, you are essentially gaining power without having to give anything up. Can't you see how that could be a significant issue?
Wizards have fewer class features than other classes because their power comes from their powers. The concern MrMyth is expressing is that, do to the low number of class features a wizard has, it may be too easy for a hybrid wizard to pick up all the class features of a wizard that you care about while also picking up class features (along with better hit points and weapon proficiencies) of another class, making a hybrid wizard strictly better than a normal wizard. If Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only features of a wizard you care about, and you can have both with your Hybrid Talent feat, you'd have no reason to ever play a normal wizard again (other than the feat cost of Hybrid talent and "needing" to cherry pick some of the best powers from your second class). There was the same issue with the warlord in the first iteration of the hybrid rules; you could have all the warlord class features as a hybrid so there was little reason not to pick up another class and have some extra features from that class, too.
Yeah, precisely this. Chaosmage says in one paragraph what it took me multiple rambling posts to try and get across.
I should mention that the real issue here is just a fundamental problem with controllers. Since they don't have a defining feature like other roles (strikers get damage boost, leaders get healing word, defenders get a marking mechanism), they tend to be largely defined by their powers, while also having less class features than other roles. Which means, with the hybrid rules, that hybrid-controllers tend to be just better than their normal versions. Druids and Invokers have the same issues - and are honestly even a bit worse, since they get their most relevant class features up front, and that leaves Hybrid Talent potentially free. It's a somewhat unfortunate situation - but one that there is no real way to fix without going back in time and convincing WotC to add some sort of defining feature to all controller classes.
Why not allow the wizard to have a Spellbook (hybrid) option with which he can only pick 2 dailies/utilities for his spellbook when he picks a wizard spell, and lump the free rituals in with the ritual caster hybrid talent option. That gives you three choices for hybrid wizard to pick in case you paragon hybrid at 11th level.
As it stands, a hybrid swordmage can still take the feat to gain a spellbook.
Yeah, precisely this. Chaosmage says in one paragraph what it took me multiple rambling posts to try and get across.
I should mention that the real issue here is just a fundamental problem with controllers. Since they don't have a defining feature like other roles (strikers get damage boost, leaders get healing word, defenders get a marking mechanism), they tend to be largely defined by their powers, while also having less class features than other roles. Which means, with the hybrid rules, that hybrid-controllers tend to be just better than their normal versions. Druids and Invokers have the same issues - and are honestly even a bit worse, since they get their most relevant class features up front, and that leaves Hybrid Talent potentially free. It's a somewhat unfortunate situation - but one that there is no real way to fix without going back in time and convincing WotC to add some sort of defining feature to all controller classes.
I see your point more clearly now, but it only winds up reinforcing what I've been saying the past few days anyway: wizards are inherently a weak class.
Yes, I can see where you're coming from, but if wizards weren't weak in the first place, they wouldn't seem so overpowering with that one tweak to their hybrid. Like you illustrated, it actually gimps a swordmage to hybrid in a wizard, whereas it's a boost to a wizard to bring in a swordmage.
Either way, a wizard still isn't a wizard without his spellbook. I might even be willing to give up the Implement Mastery for a Spellbook. Though you can still keep the Cantrips.
Wizards have fewer class features than other classes because their power comes from their powers.
I'm asking this honestly and without sarcasm because I'd like to understand what you mean, but what is the difference between a wizard's power coming from its powers, and any other class' power coming from its powers?
I just flipped quickly through PHB1 and looked at each class' level 9 dailies, and they all look pretty nicely powered. They're all different obviously, but I don't see how a wizard's powers are any more potent than any other class' powers.
So, with your suggestion in mind, let's compare to a Hybrid Wizard with Hybrid Talent for Arcane Implement Mastery.
Wizard/Swordmage has 12+Con hp, +5 hp/level, 7+Con Surges, +2 Will, 3 Skills, Arcane Implement Mastery, Spellbook, Swordbond, Swordmage Aegis (Hybrid), Proficiency with Cloth armor, Simple Melee and Simple Ranged, Military Light and Heavy Blades, Orbs, Staffs, Wands, and the ability to use Light and Heavy Blades as Implements.
So, we are losing: Cantrips, 1 skill, Ritual Casting, and 1 feat.
In return we gain: Hitpoints (equivalent to double the amount given by the Toughness feat), a Healing Surge, a significant number of weapon proficiencies, access to swords as implements, a relatively minor class feature (Swordbond), plus a core Defender class feature at almost full power (Aegis, losing only the ability to switch it from an existing target to a new one).
That seems a pretty clear upgrade in power. Not even accounting for having two entire classes worth of powers to select from.
I would say that the biggest weakness you have as a wizard that hybrid multiclasses with swordmage, and who goes with Arcane Implement Mastery, is that your wizard powers generally encourage you to remain at range, while your swordmage powers are close blast 3 at best, and more often close burst 1 or melee weapon. You have to have an even split of powers starting out, so it means you have to choose carefully to avoid being unable to stay an acceptable distance away.
You have a swordmage marking capability, but you lack the AC to use it to draw away attacks (since you went with an improved implement instead of improved AC). You'd probably go Aegis of Shielding, since the other two Aegis powers teleport you to the enemy, or the enemy to you. I can't deny that's useful, though.
Access to swords as implements is of limited value, since you've taken Implement Mastery as your hybrid feat. The same goes for getting access to a few more weapons. Eladrin wizards get a free proficiency with a longsword, probably the nicest of the military heavy blades, and I haven't seen that act as a decider for people deciding between it and another race for a wizard. It's just a function of most (not all) wizards tending to stay out of melee.
I'd call the benefits of note for the hybrid wizard/swordmage over the straight wizard to be increased durability (hit points and healing surge), more flexibility with weapons (though only slightly more power), and the ability to mark and reduce damage. You also do get access to swordmage powers which have different effects, but typically do less damage to fewer targets at a closer range, which can be an advantage or a disadvantage. In exchange, you're losing a feat, a skill, cantrips, and Ritual Casting, including the bonus rituals. You also lose half the benefit of the Spellbook, because it only applies to wizard daily and utility powers.
Is it better than a straight wizard? I'd say yes, but I'm also the sort of player who'd rather play a swordmage anyway, so I weigh that ability to get into melee more highly. If the wizard's hybrid benefits are so low, I'd expect to see more people multiclass into wizard and use power swap feats if they really think that they want to be able to drop a big scary attack.
I see your point more clearly now, but it only winds up reinforcing what I've been saying the past few days anyway: wizards are inherently a weak class.
Yes, I can see where you're coming from, but if wizards weren't weak in the first place, they wouldn't seem so overpowering with that one tweak to their hybrid. Like you illustrated, it actually gimps a swordmage to hybrid in a wizard, whereas it's a boost to a wizard to bring in a swordmage.
But, again, it isn't an issue of power so much as design - most other classes have their central capabilities encapsulated in their unique class features. The wizard's strongest facets - the ability to attack more enemies than anyone else, and the ability to usually inflict the most debilitating conditions - is entirely found within their powers.
Even if this wasn't enough - even if your claim that wizards are a weak class was true (and I do personally disagree with the assessment) - then the fix should be applied there, to the Wizard class itself. It should not be applied by buffing the hybrid version of them to be simply stronger than the base wizard without paying any cost for the gain in power.
Either way, a wizard still isn't a wizard without his spellbook. I might even be willing to give up the Implement Mastery for a Spellbook. Though you can still keep the Cantrips.
I'd say many people would feel that cantrips are as central to a wizard as a Spellbook.
And I do stand by my earlier suggestion - having the Spellbook also available as a choice via Hybrid Talent. It is clearly not as strong as Implement Mastery, but that would mean it is there for those who truly need it - and Paragon Hybrid Classing would let you get both.
But, again, it isn't an issue of power so much as design - most other classes have their central capabilities encapsulated in their unique class features. The wizard's strongest facets - the ability to attack more enemies than anyone else, and the ability to usually inflict the most debilitating conditions - is entirely found within their powers.
Even if this wasn't enough - even if your claim that wizards are a weak class was true (and I do personally disagree with the assessment) - then the fix should be applied there, to the Wizard class itself. It should not be applied by buffing the hybrid version of them to be simply stronger than the base wizard without paying any cost for the gain in power.
I actually fully agree with you here. The problem being, of course, that the class is already defined.
MrMyth wrote:
I'd say many people would feel that cantrips are as central to a wizard as a Spellbook.
And I do stand by my earlier suggestion - having the Spellbook also available as a choice via Hybrid Talent. It is clearly not as strong as Implement Mastery, but that would mean it is there for those who truly need it - and Paragon Hybrid Classing would let you get both.
Here's something I wrote in another Hybrid thread:
AlioTheFool wrote:
Okay, I'm obviously really trying hard to present my argument here, so I have some more to present.
Looking at the base wizard class, it has 4 features. Arcane Implement Mastery, Cantrips, Ritual Casting feat for free, and Spellbook.
Arcane Implement Mastery is only usable once per encounter. Whatever feature you choose, it's only good on a one-shot deal. Sure, it's a very nice ability, but in my experience, it's not critical to my success. (Adding implement damage is nice, but don't other classes work exactly the same?)
No one yet has identified (in any thread where I'm trying to discuss this) what Cantrips are useful for. Sure, they're all "wizardy" since you can light up candles in your library by snapping your fingers, or you can have a ghostly hand grab a book for you off a shelf, but besides roleplay uses, what else do Cantrips provide? I'm fully open to listening to a counter-argument.
Sacrificing Ritual Casting is a cost, but one your party's cleric can make up for. And you can still pick it up anyway if you really want it, so it doesn't make sense as a class feature.
Spellbook is where a wizard gets his true power in a fight. Firstly, he uses it to prepare what spells he believes will be useful to him that day. There's a chance they might be useless, but that's the price you pay. Beyond that, a spellbook is only useful if you start loading up on feats, and choose Tome as your implement. In that case, you're burning up feats to improve an aspect of your character, while ignore other possibilities.
There is an argument being presented in one of the other Hybrid threads that a Wizard's power comes from his powers, and I agree with that. However, where I differ from that poster's assessment is that without the class feature of Spellbook, you've effectively torn at least half of the power from the wizard class (his power to choose between different spells of the same level based on what he knows/believes is coming in the day ahead.)
If you took away Cantrips from a standard wizard, how much would it hurt the PC, beyond some roleplayability? Now if you did the same with any particular class feature of any other class, would it have the same effect, or would it truly hurt the character? I'm not intimately familiar with every PC class in the game (I tend to concentrate on just the classes I play) but off the top of my head, there isn't a single class feature of any other class that I could say making unavailable to that class wouldn't cause some harm to. Again though, I'm open to counter-arguments.
I'm asking this honestly and without sarcasm because I'd like to understand what you mean, but what is the difference between a wizard's power coming from its powers, and any other class' power coming from its powers?
I just flipped quickly through PHB1 and looked at each class' level 9 dailies, and they all look pretty nicely powered. They're all different obviously, but I don't see how a wizard's powers are any more potent than any other class' powers.
Really? Ice storm can remove any 7x7 group of melee opponents from the battle for, potentially, several rounds (and, at a minimum, a round, which is still good considering the area of the power). Even enemies he misses will have a hard time getting to a useful place due to being slowed. Is there another 9th level power in the PHB that can do anything like that?
This is further expanding on what MrMyth already posted, but other PHB classes are defined by their features; a dagger rogue is relying entirely on the feature that gives him increased accuracy and the feature that gives him increased damage with combat advantage to do his striker damage. Powers are used to support that, giving mobility, status effects that grant combat advantage, and a small boost in damage for multi W powers, but its sneak attack, rogue weapon talent, and rogue tactics (for either a bigger boost to damage or inherent mobility) that defines the rogue's ability to fulfill his role. Warlords, similiarly, have healing and buffing built into their class as features. Fighters have their ability to mark, stop movement with OAs, and soak up attacks as part of their class features. All of those use powers to support their role, but they can fulfill their role using only at will attacks if they need to.
The wizard is the other way around; its powers define its role and give it the opportunity to control the battlefield. Its class features provide some support in that role- wand to more accurately target key control abilities, staff to survive dangerous situations that being a controller attracts, orb to extend the duration of control effects, and so on- but the powers define their ability to fulfill their role, not the features.
