"barbarian ranger is a potent combatant. Such a character can use barbarian powers requiring a two-handed weapon as well as ranger powers requiring two melee weapons."
What?! A two handed weapon with two weapons? Unless you're a Thri-kreen, it's not gonna happen.
The only thing I can think of is the feat that allows the use of a quarterstaff as a double weapon. Still, that's way to specific to base such a comment on.
The only thing I can think of is the feat that allows the use of a quarterstaff as a double weapon. Still, that's way to specific to base such a comment on.
Not that it isn't as specific, but a character with a paired weapon (preferably a paired versatile weapon) and quick draw could switch between wielding a weapon two handed and wielding a weapon in each hand as a free action, so he could switch back and forth as often as he wants.
I think the issue is that the wizard only really has one class feature of significant power (Arcane Implement Mastery). In addition, it has three essentially lesser class features: Cantrips, Spellbook, and its Ritual Casting.
If the hybrid gave them Arcane Implement Mastery by default, it would be simply too strong - I imagine many people, interested in raw power, would gladly trade Cantrips, Spellbook and Ritual Casting for access to another class and whatever goodies they can get through Hybrid Talent (since they don't need to spend it on wizard stuff.)
So the hybrid gives one of the smaller ones instead (Cantrips) and allows Arcane Implement Mastery through Hybrid Talent. This does seem less than most classes get - but what are the other options? Say they gave Spellbook as well, figuring that two smaller features are about equal to what other classes get.
But that means a hybrid wizard who takes Hybrid Talent (for Arcane Implement Mastery) and Ritual Casting (the feat itself) has 95% of what a wizard normally has. He's down two feats and the ability to learn some rituals for free, and in return, he gets access to an entire second class of options and abilities. Plus, most likely, a significant boost in hitpoints, surges, weapon proficiencies...
Playing a standard wizard suddenly seems like a much weaker option.
So I think they took about the best approach they could - the strength if the wizard, really, is in its powers more than anything. Getting access to them is what you largely get from hybrid classing - with the ability to pick up the most potent class feature via Hybrid Talent. I don't see it as a fantastic solution... but I just don't see any better ones on the table.
Playing a standard wizard is a weaker option, regardless of anything else you choose to do. The class is weak.
If you're not fighting loads of minions, you're just standing there blowing through dailies that aren't doing anything. (I admit this is on the DM to provide encounters where minions figure prominently, but that hasn't been in my experience, including the published adventure for D&D Day MM2.)
I completely agree that you can't give a wizard Arcane Implement Mastery under the Hybrid system for free. However, the Spellbook should be the class feature, not Cantrips.
Put it this way, if every single class feature under the hybrid system were made into a Multiclass feat, how many of them would be gobbled up without a second thought? I'd say all but Cantrips. (Yes, I know they're two different systems not meant to reflect how the other works, but I'm trying to illustrate the weakness of the class feature vs. all the others.)
igniz wrote:
There's a good reason Wizards don't get their Rituals or Spellbooks, implement mastery is a good sacrifice.
I keep seeing people say this, but I have yet to see anyone state what that reason is.
Spellbooks are what make a wizard a wizard, rather than a sorcerer. And Rituals, I am convinced, are highly overrated. You can't use them in battle, and while some are pretty great outside combat, they're nothing your party's cleric can't provide you.
Anyway, I don't like the hybrid system any more than I like the multi-class system. In order to have a character that feels like it works for your concept, you have to significantly weaken it. While it's too overpowered as a general idea, I'd like to see Wizards work on giving us a way to start with one base class, then take any class feature from another class as a feat, along the same lines as the multi-class feats. Yes, I am aware that just saying, "Go ahead, take any class feature from any class you want as a feat" is too unbalanced. That's why I'd like Wizards to work on a system along that line. They know how do things according to their system.
Playing a standard wizard is a weaker option, regardless of anything else you choose to do. The class is weak.
If you're not fighting loads of minions, you're just standing there blowing through dailies that aren't doing anything. (I admit this is on the DM to provide encounters where minions figure prominently, but that hasn't been in my experience, including the published adventure for D&D Day MM2.)
I think the reason that loads of minions don't show up is because they are over rated. The concept behind them was cool but they are just to weak to constitute 1/4 of a monster. Even WoTC admitted this several times including their newest podcast on the MM2.
The problem is in part the wizard who can wipe out 4+ of them in one blast with and encounter/at-will power. Which a standard monster of that level no one else could one shoot except maybe a barbarian who got some great rolls and used a daily.
So the minions feel to weak and the end result is that the DM doesn't use them. I will admit I haven't had a chance to try the "new minions" in MM2. They said they assigned them roles but not sure how well that addresses the problem of them being a push over to players.
Playing a standard wizard is a weaker option, regardless of anything else you choose to do. The class is weak.
I don't think the wizard is quite as weak as you - but even if it is, that isn't a reason to make a hybrid character be better than it in every single way. Which is basically what you are asking for, and is pretty unreasonable.
AlioTheFool wrote:
I completely agree that you can't give a wizard Arcane Implement Mastery under the Hybrid system for free. However, the Spellbook should be the class feature, not Cantrips.
Put it this way, if every single class feature under the hybrid system were made into a Multiclass feat, how many of them would be gobbled up without a second thought? I'd say all but Cantrips. (Yes, I know they're two different systems not meant to reflect how the other works, but I'm trying to illustrate the weakness of the class feature vs. all the others.)
But that's the point - you are saying that the only two class features the wizard has that you care about are Arcane Implement Mastery and the Spellbook. And that the Hybrid system should let you get those, while also getting superior HP, Healing Surges, Weapon Proficiencies, extra class features and expanded power selection - all essentially for free.
Letting hybrids do that would be completely unbalancing, and is pretty much the exact goal of what they are trying to do here - make characters who are different from the base classes, rather than strictly better.
The hybrid wizard does get somewhat short-changed in the class feature options (though it can pick up its biggest one via Hybrid Talent). But in return, it is able to get solid improvement on almost all its other stats, along with potentially powerful class features from other classes. That is certainly enough to allow one to design a competent and effective characters within the hybrid rules as they currently stand.
Now, all that said... I think having Spellbook as another option via Hybrid Talent might not be unreasonable. As you mention, it is pretty iconic, and some may well prefer it to Arcane Implement Mastery, as strong as that is.
If you really want both? Then playing a normal wizard, in the end, remains an option.
AlioTheFool wrote:
Anyway, I don't like the hybrid system any more than I like the multi-class system. In order to have a character that feels like it works for your concept, you have to significantly weaken it. While it's too overpowered as a general idea, I'd like to see Wizards work on giving us a way to start with one base class, then take any class feature from another class as a feat, along the same lines as the multi-class feats. Yes, I am aware that just saying, "Go ahead, take any class feature from any class you want as a feat" is too unbalanced. That's why I'd like Wizards to work on a system along that line. They know how do things according to their system.
Except... that is just what they did, here! They found away to allow people to have multiple class features without letting them combine all those features into one uber-character that breaks the system. But you can't have it both ways - you can't ask them to design a balanced system, and then complain that it doesn't let you make a character beyond the system's power level.
In any case, I really don't see what you are referring to with the need to 'significantly weaken' your character in order to make them work. The hybrid rules allow for perfectly competent characters of all stripes. Builds designed more for flavor than optimization will tend to be slightly weaker than the more min/maxed builds, but that is no different than with normal characters - and, as with the rest of the system, 4E does a decent job of keeping the difference between the two somewhat reasonable.
What character do you honestly feel would be crippled in the hybrid system? And what is it they cannot attain that you feel is causing the problem?
I don't think the wizard is quite as weak as you - but even if it is, that isn't a reason to make a hybrid character be better than it in every single way. Which is basically what you are asking for, and is pretty unreasonable.
I'm not sure how you come to that conclusion based on what I'm asking for: switching out Cantrips for Spellbooks as the single class feature.
MrMyth wrote:
But that's the point - you are saying that the only two class features the wizard has that you care about are Arcane Implement Mastery and the Spellbook. And that the Hybrid system should let you get those, while also getting superior HP, Healing Surges, Weapon Proficiencies, extra class features and expanded power selection - all essentially for free.
But that's not what I'm saying at all. I asked for Spellbook to replace Cantrips. Arcane Implement Mastery would still be subject to the Hybrid Talent feat, which you can only take once. Therefore, you can choose to get that feature, or a feature from your other class. The only way you can gain an class feature from wizard and your other class is via sacrificing your Paragon Path.
I'm not advocating simply smashing the Hybrid system simply for the sake of doing so.
MrMyth wrote:
Letting hybrids do that would be completely unbalancing, and is pretty much the exact goal of what they are trying to do here - make characters who are different from the base classes, rather than strictly better.
Are you referring to where I was asking about making all class features feat-based? If so, I was trying to make a point, not flat out say that Wizards should do that.
MrMyth wrote:
The hybrid wizard does get somewhat short-changed in the class feature options (though it can pick up its biggest one via Hybrid Talent). But in return, it is able to get solid improvement on almost all its other stats, along with potentially powerful class features from other classes. That is certainly enough to allow one to design a competent and effective characters within the hybrid rules as they currently stand.
You're admitting that wizards get short-changed on the class features, but since they can pick up a class feature or two from other classes, just like every other Hybrid can, they'd be overpowered? I don't get it. How then aren't other classes overpowered while getting the power to grab those additional class features?
MrMyth wrote:
Now, all that said... I think having Spellbook as another option via Hybrid Talent might not be unreasonable. As you mention, it is pretty iconic, and some may well prefer it to Arcane Implement Mastery, as strong as that is.
Cantrips and Spellbook would turn me off to the Hybrid of wizard. I can't stand Cantrips. I just don't see any usefulness to them outside of having cute DM-infuriating ideas such as using Mage Hand to set off a trap, or creating a light show for children with Prestidigitation.
MrMyth wrote:
If you really want both? Then playing a normal wizard, in the end, remains an option.
Of course it does. But that's not relevant to the topic of Hybrid Characters.
MrMyth wrote:
Except... that is just what they did, here! They found away to allow people to have multiple class features without letting them combine all those features into one uber-character that breaks the system. But you can't have it both ways - you can't ask them to design a balanced system, and then complain that it doesn't let you make a character beyond the system's power level.
I understand your point, and I know that what I said is too overpowered, as I stated. That doesn't mean I don't think Wizards should continue to explore ways to allow cross-classing beyond multi-classing and hybrid classing (which it sounds like they are still doing according to that Design & Development article.)
I personally don't like the structure of the two current options, as-is. That doesn't make me right, it just makes me unwilling to use the two current methodologies to play my characters. I have character concepts in my head that can't be implemented via the current methods. I just hope that at some point I'll get to create them. (I'm not looking for an uber-powered character. Actually, I make terribly weak overall characters, no matter what game I'm playing, because I prefer to build characters to my character concept, rather than to maximize their effectiveness.)
MrMyth wrote:
In any case, I really don't see what you are referring to with the need to 'significantly weaken' your character in order to make them work. The hybrid rules allow for perfectly competent characters of all stripes. Builds designed more for flavor than optimization will tend to be slightly weaker than the more min/maxed builds, but that is no different than with normal characters - and, as with the rest of the system, 4E does a decent job of keeping the difference between the two somewhat reasonable.
So far, from what I've seen, wizards who are built for flavor are far more gimped than slightly, even compared to other classes who are built reasonably. I'm always standing back firing off everything I know while the rest of my party is kicking the teeth in of the monsters were facing. (The same was even true on D&D Game Day, and those were pregens.)
MrMyth wrote:
What character do you honestly feel would be crippled in the hybrid system? And what is it they cannot attain that you feel is causing the problem?
Again, I'd be happy just trading Cantrips for Spellbook. The concept I'd most like to work with right now is my wizard/swordmage who focuses much more on his wizardly powers, but uses his swordmage ability only when caught with his back-against-the-wall.
Right now, the best option for me is my full wizard coupled with Heart of the Blade (which I like for the swordbond feature --very Jedi-esque,--) Eladrin Sword Wizardry, Intelligent Blademaster, Eladrin Soldier, and Implement Expertise (Heavy Blade.) That's a lot of feats to fit in my concept (and I try to always avoid melee anyway.) If I could hybrid the two, I'd get enough of the swordmage's benefit while keeping my wizard concept alive. Without my spellbook though, it's just not worth playing. I'm a Tomebound mage, so without a spellbook, it's a bit gimpy, especially when it comes to my Improved Tome of Readiness feat, which would be useless without a spellbook (not to mention impossible without also using the hybrid talent to grab Arcane Implement Mastery.)
You're admitting that wizards get short-changed on the class features, but since they can pick up a class feature or two from other classes, just like every other Hybrid can, they'd be overpowered? I don't get it. How then aren't other classes overpowered while getting the power to grab those additional class features?
Wizards have fewer class features than other classes because their power comes from their powers. The concern MrMyth is expressing is that, do to the low number of class features a wizard has, it may be too easy for a hybrid wizard to pick up all the class features of a wizard that you care about while also picking up class features (along with better hit points and weapon proficiencies) of another class, making a hybrid wizard strictly better than a normal wizard. If Spellbook and Implement Mastery are the only features of a wizard you care about, and you can have both with your Hybrid Talent feat, you'd have no reason to ever play a normal wizard again (other than the feat cost of Hybrid talent and "needing" to cherry pick some of the best powers from your second class). There was the same issue with the warlord in the first iteration of the hybrid rules; you could have all the warlord class features as a hybrid so there was little reason not to pick up another class and have some extra features from that class, too.
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