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Jedi_Master_Trobon wrote:

I don't think the Cleric/Warlord thing is that bad. You lose 1 feat and you lose 1 use of a heal per an encounter at level 16+. You also have to deal with worse MAD than if you were just a Warlord. You do gain the versatility of having the two classes and healing word (which is only good if you feed into the MAD). Its not a bad combo, but its not OPed at all.

Yeah, it actually looks like they did bring it into line - Hybrid Talent of Commanding Presence is only once an encounter, which I think is enough to keep the hybrid class strong, but no longer getting pretty much everything a warlord gets plus some extra options.

Tharag Bocc wrote:

We have different views on what he primary function of hybrid should be. For me hybrid is more about being able to play "mixed character" (gaining class features and power from both classes) than actually filling to roles.

In my experience, a character who tries to split time between performing two roles usually just ends up failing at both. For me a character should be focused on a single role (best to leave the other class as a secondary role).

Except that is the amazing thing about the Hybrid classes - they are able to actually fill each role. They can just only do so for a limited amount of a time. They don't get all the 'perks' of their classes, but they get the core abilities that really define them.

If all you want is powers from different classes, multiclassing gets you there (albeit slowly). And getting lots of little powers for each class seems like a very easy way to end up with someone that has trouble filling any role.

Right now, in general, multiclassing lets you play one class with a smattering of ability of a second class. Eventually, by paragon to epic levels you can have a more even split, but you will almost always be a Cleric with some Fighter ability, or a Fighter with some Cleric ability. Whatever your classes, the multiclassing rules will mean one will typically be primary and one secondary.

Hybrid lets you truly have a character who is both at once. But if you say that my hybrid Cleric/Fighter can either have the ability to heal (Healing Word) or have the ability to mark and defend (Combat Challenge), then suddenly we're right back to being one class with a sprinkle of another.

And that would be an incredible waste of the potential inherent in the hybrid rules.

MrMyth wrote:

Except that is the amazing thing about the Hybrid classes - they are able to actually fill each role. They can just only do so for a limited amount of a time. They don't get all the 'perks' of their classes, but they get the core abilities that really define them.

That's not been my experience. Playtested them with my friends and no one really managed to get a character that could effectively fill two roles. The best anyone managed was to focus on trying to fill one of the two roles. I've not read anything on these boards that convinces me other wise.

MrMyth wrote:

If all you want is powers from different classes, multiclassing gets you there (albeit slowly). And getting lots of little powers for each class seems like a very easy way to end up with someone that has trouble filling any role.

Right now, in general, multiclassing lets you play one class with a smattering of ability of a second class. Eventually, by paragon to epic levels you can have a more even split, but you will almost always be a Cleric with some Fighter ability, or a Fighter with some Cleric ability. Whatever your classes, the multiclassing rules will mean one will typically be primary and one secondary.

As you said, multi classing is slower. Hybrid makes a mixed character possible from lv.1 and with out eating up 4+ feats and ones paragon path. Careless power selection can of course lead to a bad character, but that's true of hybrid as it stands now, or even normal single class characters.

MrMyth wrote:

Hybrid lets you truly have a character who is both at once. But if you say that my hybrid Cleric/Fighter can either have the ability to heal (Healing Word) or have the ability to mark and defend (Combat Challenge), then suddenly we're right back to being one class with a sprinkle of another.

Even under my variant a hybrid fighter|cleric would have options to optimize their sub-role. If they took combat challenge as their major talent, they could still take select mostly healing powers for thier cleric slts. If they took healing word as their major talent, they could still have combat supremacy and fighter powers that immobilize or knock prone.

Also it seems to me that the currant system is designed far more to prevent shared role hybrids from being superior to to single class characters. Hybrids are prevented from stacking striker damage, or from doubling up on basic healing features (healing/inspiring word). This however results in an awkward design.

It mostly doesn't stop characters from being two different roles at once. A rogue|cleric can sneak attack and still use healing word in the same turn. A rogue|paladin can engage to maintain their divine challenge while still using a rogue power to sneak attack.

Also, It hurts any attempts to stack multiclassing on top of hybrid to create a triple class character. A true rogue can sneak attack with any multiclass power, so long as he uses the appropriate weapon. A hybrid rogue, however, cannot and is instead restricted to sneaking only with rogue powers, mostly to prevent them from stacking the damage with other striker features like warlock's curse or hunter quarry. Even discounting trippleclassing, the inability to sneak attack while charging or making opportunity attacks is still a flaw.

Siberys wrote:

Also, as I recall, you can only ever take a particular feat once, no? Therefore, Hybrid Talent (and the hypothetical feat above) should have the following;

Special: You may take this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take this feat, choose a new hybrid talent.

Hybrid Talent is intended to be taken only once.

I do get that people really want to have access to lots of things from both halves (many Hybrid Talent, the full class features, etc.) But keep in mind that the goal isn't to create better characters than the base classes - if you give them the ability to have everything the base classes have, plus extra stuff from another class, they just become too strong. Even with the feat cost - class features tend to be stronger than feats, and can be combined to especially good effect.

Jedi_Master_Trobon wrote:

Unless you hybrid PP

But even then you only get it twice, and you've sacrificed the features you would have gotten from a regular PP.