Actually you need AP: Leather as you only get the APs both classes have, and Avenger is a bit short on APs.
The main issue with the Hybrid classes is the base class features, the powers pretty much don't matter, as long as they keep the balance of the base class features sorted this all works.
Pre the release of the Hybrid rules, we achieved this by restricting characters to the one class for base features, but allowing power picks from any class.
As the above super defence build above demonstrates stacking these sorts of base features causes problems.
As the above super defence build above demonstrates stacking these sorts of base features causes problems.
Yea but part of the problem on that is the avenger was already broken on AC. He could get higher AC then any other class in the game before Hybrid. The hybrid allows him to keep all that armor gaining ability and stack on another class's AC bonuses.
WoTC could fix this bonus stacking by saying these are "Class bonuses" and just like other type bonuses such as feat, item, and etc they do not stack. If they did that the hybrid would only be able to reach the avengers high AC.
Also WoTC needs to errata the Avenger to change his +3 bonus to when unarmed or in cloth armor which will bring his AC back down to where defenders are in AC :P.
Those 2 changes would solve a lot of problems and not require a bunch of errata or rules changes for other areas.
The AC combo's were always going to be a problem, but you do have to be a Racial PP to get double bonuses. Anyone who gets a bonus to AC and can stack it with others is going to be trouble. A Warlock/Warden who gets Bonus AC from Con and Int is going to be trouble, among other options.
What they lack are class features.
Your Avenger/SM is missing out on damage from his class feature (important damage that supliments his playstyle) and he's using a 1h weapon, further impeding him.
You say he's good, but what at, he's clearly able to avoid damage but what is he actually good at?
In regards to the actual article:
Its a lot better, but I feel the skills are still underwhelming and we still don't know what happens if we take a PMC, we'd clearly loose an at-will which would upset our balance of at-wills.
That said, my main concerns remain - namely, how good certain combinations can be. A Ranger/Rogue who focused on getting in lots of attacks as minor actions can stack up both Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry.
That said, here is what would make me happy: -Make all of the abilities that only trigger on attacks of their class (Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Sorcerous Power, Warlock's Curse) also only work on attacks require a Standard action.
I actually have my own rather radical idea on that.
[INDENT]REMOVE ALL ROLE DEFINING CLASS FEATURES FROM THE DEFAULT HYBRID BUILDS, adding them instead to the list of hybrid talent options (removing the hybrid restrictions) and make the various build defining class features (Brutal Scoundrel/Artful Dodger; Archery Style/Two-Weapon Style) into the default feature all classes get instead.
ADVANTAGES: This mostly stops any ability stacking, such as doubling up on striker damage, though with the new paragon rules it would become possible at lv.11, but as that costs the ability to select a paragon path it might balance it out (paths such as pit fighter already grant striker like benefits anyway). It also means that such attack dependent features would properly function on basic attacks. It would also allow hybrids to take advantage of build based rider effects on their powers from both classes. For me the best part of hybridizing is getting powers from two classes and I would like to see it possible to make the most of those powers. Lastly, it means that hybrid characters mostly only have one role (just like normal characters)
DISADVANTAGES: Players can no longer make dual-role characters, though in truth hybrids were often more like alternating role characters than true dual-roles. That restrictive nature of how hybrids alternate roles under the currently presented system makes it an easy sacrifice for me, though I'm sure there are some who enjoyed being able to create dual-role characters in spite of the restrictions. Perhaps the greater concern is that without selecting the Hybrid Talent feat a character would have no role defining class feature at all.
Taking that into account, perhaps a better solution would be for each hybrid class to dived up its class features into two lists; major talents and minor talents. Role defining features (striker damage, basic leader heal, defenders mark) would always be major talents, while most other class features would be minor talents. At character creation players would chose a major talent from one class and a minor talent from the other class. The Hybrid Talent would allow players to choose an additional minor talent from either class.[/INDENT]
Having gotten that hypothetical out of the way, I would like to move onto the current playtest as presented. Most notably my concerns over hybrid rangers.
[INDENT]ISSUE #1: With the exception of qualifying for perquisites, archery style doesn't really do anything other than grant a feat. My suggestion is to combine prime shot and archery style together into a single talent option. They go together thematically and the resulting fused talent would be more competitive with two-weapon style.
ISSUE #2: Don't nerf the hybrid beast companion. The companion is naturaly the single most defining aspect of the beast masters, nerfing it is a serious penalty for any powers were the companion is the primary attacker. Granted having an extra body in the form of a beast companion is a boon in and of it self, but what kind of boon is it? Its greatest benefits are; A) flanking partner, but an extra flanker benefits the whole party; B) an extra body to control if the ranger drops, a boon no doubt, but one that keeps the player involved in the action while waiting for the leader to pick them back up. If it is necessary to nerf the beast companion than remove its ability to move simultaneously with its master (though if doing so it would probably be a good idea allow it to move once per turn as a minor action instead). PLEASE DO NOT NERF ITS ATTACK AND DEFENSE.[/INDENT]
Your Avenger/SM is missing out on damage from his class feature (important damage that supliments his playstyle) and he's using a 1h weapon, further impeding him.
You say he's good, but what at, he's clearly able to avoid damage but what is he actually good at?
The problem is it unbalances things because you have a player who can't be hit except on practically a nature 20 most of the time. Monsters on average get 5 + level to hit. So let's look at those numbers again.
11th level = 35 AC Average 11th level NPC +16 to hit needs 19 21st level = 47 AC Average 21st level NPC +26 to hit needs 20 30th level = 55 AC Average 30th level NPC +35 to hit needs 20
Now to see how this unbalances things make a standard encounter and give one of the monsters an AC where the majority of the players need at least a 19 to hit. And then see if that encounter nearly kills the party.
The reason it unbalances things is because the players will waste attacks on that monster they could of used to hurt other monsters thus weaken the NPC side. They will also have trouble hurting the monster so he could potentially kill them via "Death by a thousand cuts".
If you can't kill a creature it doesn't matter that it does very low comparable damage. That creature will still win because you can't kill it.
Another way to look at it is like this. Let's say the monster hits on 19 so that's 10% of the time. Even if the monster did 100 damage per hit which is just crazy it would have a DPR of 10 which is horrible. Now let's say your facing lvl 30 with 3d8+10 attacks even if you assume they always do full damage of 34 but only hit 10% of the time that is 3.4 DPR. With around 200 HP the Avenger/SwordMage could easily last 50 rounds against 1 monster. He should be able to do enough damage to kill that monster by then even with lower DPR setup.
Or he could go 10 rounds taking on 5 by himself but that is not likely to happen and the point is what other class could last several rounds soloing 5 monsters?
30th level = 55 AC Average 30th level NPC +35 to hit needs 20
The problem isn't with the hybrid rules, but rather with the avenger class itself (or more specifically with the armor of faith class feature). I several weeks back as an intellectual exercise I decided to build a max-defense avenger and got up to 54 AC.
"Created Using Wizards of the Coast D&DI Character Builder"Show
ITEMS Amulet of Protection +6, Circlet of Indomitability (paragon tier), Belt of Vim (paragon tier), Boots of Quickness (paragon tier), Magic Voidhide +6, Magic Urgrosh +6
I could have even pushed the AC up to 56, by using elderhide instead of voidhide and by sacrificing WIS for more DEX.
The reason it unbalances things is because the players will waste attacks on that monster they could of used to hurt other monsters thus weaken the NPC side. They will also have trouble hurting the monster so he could potentially kill them via "Death by a thousand cuts".
I think you'll mean the enemy will waste time hitting the Avenger/Swordmage, but you can't say why they'd waste time hitting the Avenger over anyone else in particular.
Its still only his AC defence that's high, and you're worried about 30ths that can't hit him?
Its potent, and the problem is more with Avenger's and their high AC's, if the hybrid bonus was reduced it'd be fairer, and make a lot more sense, but its not a major threat to game balance.
However, Tharag Bocc's suggestion is quite good and would go a long way to solving this issue.
However his Avenger build is still a bit lame, high defences but pathetic otherwise, i'm not sure you'd make it all the way to 30 or even be that useful.
I actually have my own rather radical idea on that.
[INDENT]REMOVE ALL ROLE DEFINING CLASS FEATURES FROM THE DEFAULT HYBRID BUILDS, adding them instead to the list of hybrid talent options (removing the hybrid restrictions) and make the various build defining class features (Brutal Scoundrel/Artful Dodger; Archery Style/Two-Weapon Style) into the default feature all classes get instead.
I have to say, I'd pretty much be 100% against this! As you mention, the main disadvantage is that it shuts down dual-role hybrids - which defeats the entire point of making hybrid classes in the first place! The success at creating a hybrid option which lets characters switch from one role to another throughout the combat, without being the best at either at any given time, is really what makes these rules so amazing! Taking that away would be a terrible idea, in my opinion.
The hybrids need their 'major talents' to make them an actual exercise in having a character capable of functioning as two seperate classes. The key is not to remove that capability - which, again, defeats the entire point of the hybrid design. The key is simply to put measures into place to ensure that can only function as one of those two classes at a given time. Or, as with Paladin, to let them have one class capability always available, but weakened in actual effect.
Yea but part of the problem on that is the avenger was already broken on AC. He could get higher AC then any other class in the game before Hybrid. The hybrid allows him to keep all that armor gaining ability and stack on another class's AC bonuses.
WoTC could fix this bonus stacking by saying these are "Class bonuses" and just like other type bonuses such as feat, item, and etc they do not stack. If they did that the hybrid would only be able to reach the avengers high AC.
Also WoTC needs to errata the Avenger to change his +3 bonus to when unarmed or in cloth armor which will bring his AC back down to where defenders are in AC :P.
Those 2 changes would solve a lot of problems and not require a bunch of errata or rules changes for other areas.
Got to basically agree here. The issue is not so much with the hybrid avenger as the avenger in the first place. Improved Armor of Faith should be a named bonus (armor or feat, really), or simply only work in cloth armor or no armor.
