|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 5:05PM
#11
|
|
|
They still have the wording in there that it will not be RPGA legal and will not be in the Character Builder. But were we not told that it would be in the Character Builder update on June 2nd?
And although I will be sad if it is still not going to be RPGA legal, I can live with it for now. I am using a Hybrid Character in a Home Campaign.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 6:20PM
#12
|
|
|
Well that was an interesting read. Although someone more cynical then I (alright, I'm lying. I am this cynical) could say WotC has just saved themselves an article they have to produce every month or two. Now they can just tweak the previous playtest article, perhaps include a page or two of extra content and then republish it.
[/cynical]
In all fairness WotC did wait until the last week of the month before producing this, and they don't normally have new content in this week. So there's a good chance this is extra content rather then replacing previous content.
I'm more confident in this version of the playtest. Rather then outright getting extra class features, players will instead get approved, balanced versions of the class features.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 7:15PM
#13
|
|
|
I like pretty much every change made. The product here continues to impress me with how smoothly they have tackled an incredibly difficult scenario.
That said, my main concerns remain - namely, how good certain combinations can be. A Ranger/Rogue who focused on getting in lots of attacks as minor actions can stack up both Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. A Cleric/Warlord with Hybrid Talent is pretty much just a Warlord++. I see other similarly strong combinations, typically when combining roles.
It is true that there are incredibly strong builds outside of these rules as well. These combinations certainly aren't any more gamebreaking than other ones out there. If the rules were released as they are now, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
That said, here is what would make me happy:
-Make all of the abilities that only trigger on attacks of their class (Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Sorcerous Power, Warlock's Curse) also only work on attacks require a Standard action.
That one big change would stop the only real abuse I see - the ability to have a character who spends the first half of combat doing double striker damage, or dealing striker damage while being a full tank, or so forth.
Outside of that, it is simply tweaking specifics (like trying to find a way to tone down Cleric/Warlord), but no other big changes really leap out at me. On the whole, this effort continues to do nothing but impress.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 8:42PM
#14
|
|
|
I like pretty much every change made. The product here continues to impress me with how smoothly they have tackled an incredibly difficult scenario.
That said, my main concerns remain - namely, how good certain combinations can be. A Ranger/Rogue who focused on getting in lots of attacks as minor actions can stack up both Sneak Attack and Hunter's Quarry. A Cleric/Warlord with Hybrid Talent is pretty much just a Warlord++. I see other similarly strong combinations, typically when combining roles.
It is true that there are incredibly strong builds outside of these rules as well. These combinations certainly aren't any more gamebreaking than other ones out there. If the rules were released as they are now, it wouldn't be the end of the world.
That said, here is what would make me happy:
-Make all of the abilities that only trigger on attacks of their class (Sneak Attack, Hunter's Quarry, Fighter's Mark, Sorcerous Power, Warlock's Curse) also only work on attacks require a Standard action.
That one big change would stop the only real abuse I see - the ability to have a character who spends the first half of combat doing double striker damage, or dealing striker damage while being a full tank, or so forth.
Outside of that, it is simply tweaking specifics (like trying to find a way to tone down Cleric/Warlord), but no other big changes really leap out at me. On the whole, this effort continues to do nothing but impress.
I don't think the Cleric/Warlord thing is that bad. You lose 1 feat and you lose 1 use of a heal per an encounter at level 16+. You also have to deal with worse MAD than if you were just a Warlord. You do gain the versatility of having the two classes and healing word (which is only good if you feed into the MAD). Its not a bad combo, but its not OPed at all.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 9:37PM
#15
|
|
|
I just want to start by saying how amazingly AWESOME the new hybrid classes are, both ph1 and 2.
I will get to work on breaking these asap to find if anything else is needed; though it looks as if everything has been addressed.
--
Quick note, in the final issue, the wizard needs a title for his hybrid class and you may want to consider allowing the spellbook hybrid option which would work for only wizard daily and utility spells.
*EDIT* Aha, just read the Design article, I understand now why there's no spellbook.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 9:52PM
#16
|
|
|
I have a fear or two still...like the paragon hybrid swordmage/avenger who at level 11 takes the hybrid fro one AC up, and has had the other, plus the feats that up both...
at level 11 in cloth 5 level 5 or 6 stat, 5 avenger 4 swordmage +3 magic 31 AC...and that is without even trying...I think this will stack to unhitable way to easyly
The problem with CharOp is it fails miserably in a lot of cases to take in versatility as a factor. It's just about TEH DPPPPPPRRRRZ. Not durability, dpr, skills etc.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 9:56PM
#17
|
|
|
A good point; maybe only allow one "armor" talent or make the talent options a named bonus?
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 10:07PM
#18
|
|
|
There are other defenses than ac, as it do not matter how high your ac is if you are dominated, dazed, asleep etc...
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 26, 2009 - 10:43PM
#19
|
|
|
There are other defenses than ac, as it do not matter how high your ac is if you are dominated, dazed, asleep etc...
and none of those condtions mean jack when fighting soliders, brutes, or weapon users...
and with just magic bonus level app only the fort def is anything near low...
check out the build that took me 10 mins to in max...
master of def
Show
Deva puts 16 in both Int and Wis +2 both…18/18 12 in str 12 in con 8 in cha 10 in dex
Armor of Faith
The favor of your deity wards you from harm. While
you are neither wearing heavy armor nor using a
shield, you gain a +3 bonus to AC.
Improved Armor of Faith
Prerequisite: Avenger, armor of faith power
Benefit: While you are neither wearing heavy
armor nor using a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at
21st level.
Swordmage Warding
While you are conscious and wielding either a light
blade or a heavy blade, you maintain a field of magical
force around you.
This field provides a +1 bonus to AC, or a +3 bonus
if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your
other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand
weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).
GREATER SWORDMAGE WARDING
Prerequisite: lIth level, Str l3, Con l3, swordmage,
Swordmage Warding class feature
Benefit: While your Swordmage Warding is
active, you gain a +1 feat bonus to all defenses.
At 21st level, this bonus increases to +2.
Armor Proficiency (Hide)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, training with
leather armor
Benefit: You gain training with hide armor.
Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Benefit: You gain training with leather armor.
Base def +1 will +1 Fort
11th level (+3 hide)+6 (Int 21)+5 (1/2 level) +5 (Class and feat)+9= 35 AC
20 Fort 24 Ref 25 Will HP 87 #hs 8
21st level (+5 hide) +9 (Int 24)+7 (1/2 level)+10 (Class and feat) +11= 47 AC
29 Fort 34 Ref 35 Will HP 148 #hs 9
30th level (+6 hide) +11 (Int 26)+8 (1/2 level)+15 (Class and feat) +11= 55 AC
33 Fort 41 Ref 42 Will HP 202 #hs 9
edit: that is three feats...
The problem with CharOp is it fails miserably in a lot of cases to take in versatility as a factor. It's just about TEH DPPPPPPRRRRZ. Not durability, dpr, skills etc.
|
|
|
|
11 months ago ::
May 27, 2009 - 12:07AM
#20
|
|
|
check out the build that took me 10 mins to in max...
master of def
Show
Deva puts 16 in both Int and Wis +2 both…18/18 12 in str 12 in con 8 in cha 10 in dex
Armor of Faith
The favor of your deity wards you from harm. While
you are neither wearing heavy armor nor using a
shield, you gain a +3 bonus to AC.
Improved Armor of Faith
Prerequisite: Avenger, armor of faith power
Benefit: While you are neither wearing heavy
armor nor using a shield, you gain a +1 bonus to AC.
The bonus increases to +2 at 11th level and +3 at
21st level.
Swordmage Warding
While you are conscious and wielding either a light
blade or a heavy blade, you maintain a field of magical
force around you.
This field provides a +1 bonus to AC, or a +3 bonus
if you are wielding a blade in one hand and have your
other hand free (not carrying a shield, an off-hand
weapon, a two-handed weapon, or anything else).
GREATER SWORDMAGE WARDING
Prerequisite: lIth level, Str l3, Con l3, swordmage,
Swordmage Warding class feature
Benefit: While your Swordmage Warding is
active, you gain a +1 feat bonus to all defenses.
At 21st level, this bonus increases to +2.
Armor Proficiency (Hide)
Prerequisites: Str 13, Con 13, training with
leather armor
Benefit: You gain training with hide armor.
Armor Proficiency (Leather)
Benefit: You gain training with leather armor.
Base def +1 will +1 Fort
11th level (+3 hide)+6 (Int 21)+5 (1/2 level) +5 (Class and feat)+9= 35 AC
20 Fort 24 Ref 25 Will HP 87 #hs 8
21st level (+5 hide) +9 (Int 24)+7 (1/2 level)+10 (Class and feat) +11= 47 AC
29 Fort 34 Ref 35 Will HP 148 #hs 9
30th level (+6 hide) +11 (Int 26)+8 (1/2 level)+15 (Class and feat) +11= 55 AC
33 Fort 41 Ref 42 Will HP 202 #hs 9
edit: that is three feats...
That is somewhat worrying. Can anyone achieve something comparable to this with a pure Swordmage or a pure Avenger? Or can someone explain why this Avenger/Swordmage isn't anywhere near as good as a pure Swordmage or a pure Avenger?
I'll give it a try on my own, but I came to D&D with 4th ed so building characters using D&D rules is new for me. And trying to build a min-maxed/optimised character is still a foreign concept. So even if its possible, there's a good chance I won't see how to.
|
|
|
