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4 years ago ::
Apr 22, 2009 - 6:29PM
#181
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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Your hybrid health feat only gives you 1 hp/level more at most (under the current playtest rules which rounds down half of each classes' hit points before adding them together).
I misunderstood what you meant by this point. I didn't intend for the .5 average comment to be part of the Health Feat, but rather a general comment on how I think the HP situation should be - agreeing with comments made by others. I've separated it out to make that a little clearer and changed the wording a little to reflect other corrections.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 22, 2009 - 6:53PM
#182
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Good point. I still tend to think of the 3.0 rules first, and have to translate. So, if we add the per level HP increases as well, that's a better balance, you think?
Yes, I do, as the playtest rules currently are written. (since the majority of classes get 5 hp/level and the average of two classes which both have 5 hp/level....is 4hp/level ...so it would make the majority of class combos to actually get the true average (and same) hit points per level as each of their non-hybrid classes get.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 23, 2009 - 9:21AM
#183
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2001
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Hybrid Skill: Gain an extra trained skill [s]from one of your (non-Hybrid) base classes. Any extra trained skills your hybrid classes provide may be taken from the combined class skill list of both.
You can simply take Skill Training instead.
<\
\>tuntman
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4 years ago ::
Apr 23, 2009 - 12:01PM
#184
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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You can simply take Skill Training instead.
Well, the Hybrid Skill would be SLIGHTLY better if you were a Ranger or Rogue hybrid and wanted to spread your skills out a bit more. But, yeah, compared to the others it's pretty weak.
It would be better overall if the rules were just amended to allow those hybrid classes with extra Trained Skills to be able to use them from either list. IE, this Hybrid Feat probably isn't worth the ink... Especially if it excludes the other Hybrid Feats I propose.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 23, 2009 - 2:43PM
#185
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Date Joined:
Aug 17, 2007
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OK, so if I take Hybrid Skill out, I'm starting to rethink this.
Add a new one, Hybrid Defense, which let's you substitute the full defense bonus(es) of one of your base classes when you combine your Hybrid Class Defenses.
Then we have 3 somewhat related 'pseudo-Feats': Armor, Health, and Defense, all designed to make your Hybrid character a little tougher... more resilient.
That doesn't seem to be much in conflict with the Hybrid talent, so drop the restriction on taking Talent if you take one of these.
So...
Hybrid Resilience: Choose One of the following; Hybrid Armor, Hybrid Health, or Hybrid Defense. Gain the benefit described from one of your full base classes. You can only take this Feat once.
Hmm, starting to sound more like a new Hybrid Class feature than a Hybrid feat, but I'm not willing to add a new feature this early in the game. :-) Maybe if play testing shows these classes as a bit weak, survivability-wise, then I might rethink this.
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4 years ago ::
Apr 30, 2009 - 2:56PM
#186
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Date Joined:
Feb 18, 2004
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The hit point issue has been covered, and knowing how to round solves it. Here's my proposed solution to the armor issue.
You gain any armor that is given to both of your classes. In addition, if either of your classes gets chainmail, you gain leather armor. If either of your classes gets scale armor, you gain hide armor. If either of your classes gets plate armor, you gain chainmail. If either of your classes gets heavy shield proficiency, you gain light shield proficiency.
This doesn't give heavy armor to any class except for paladins, who need it the most, but it does give the other classes which usually would wear heavy armor one of the prerequisites for buying up to chainmail.
Looking over some thematic multiclasses:
Fighter/wizard: Gets hide armor and a light shield, allowing for an armored warrior carrying a shield in one hand and a wand/orb/tome in the other. Can stand on the front lines, and will typically have AC equivalent to a battlerager, though not the durability.
Wizard/tactical warlord: Gets leather armor. While still more fragile than a regular warlord, it's not that far different, and could potentially take the 13 in Constitution to buy proficiency in chainmail (and wear Tactician's Armor).
Paladin/fey pact warlock: Gets chainmail and a light shield. Can stand on the front lines without being overwhelmed, but has the ranged attacks and mobility to be able to fight one step removed.
The only real issue I have with a system like this, aside from the complexity, is that light armor and heavy armor are mechanically different within the game. Heavy armor classes generally do not have high enough INT and DEX scores to make light armor a viable option throughout their career and do not have alternate methods of maintaining their AC. While it works fairly well at level 1, by level 30 the character is going to be at a significant disadvantage (this can be moderated by feats, but a character shouldn't be forced to take feats just to remain playable). Given that hybrid classes are going to be more prone to MAD than standard classes, heavy armor proficiency should be preserved.
I would suggest using the armor proficiency rule as written, with the addendum that if either class can wear heavy armor the character is automatically proficient in chain. I also agree that characters should retain shield proficiencies - using the two rules combined should resolve most of the AC issues.
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4 years ago ::
May 02, 2009 - 6:55AM
#187
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Date Joined:
Apr 11, 2008
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The only real issue I have with a system like this, aside from the complexity, is that light armor and heavy armor are mechanically different within the game. Heavy armor classes generally do not have high enough INT and DEX scores to make light armor a viable option throughout their career and do not have alternate methods of maintaining their AC. While it works fairly well at level 1, by level 30 the character is going to be at a significant disadvantage (this can be moderated by feats, but a character shouldn't be forced to take feats just to remain playable). Given that hybrid classes are going to be more prone to MAD than standard classes, heavy armor proficiency should be preserved.
I would suggest using the armor proficiency rule as written, with the addendum that if either class can wear heavy armor the character is automatically proficient in chain. I also agree that characters should retain shield proficiencies - using the two rules combined should resolve most of the AC issues.
I don't see the light armor/heavy armor divide presenting a problem. The only time that a character would not get access to heavy armor is when at least one of his sides is a light-armor only side. In that case, the hybrid character should favor Dexterity or Intelligence, and be able to make use of light armor somewhat effectively. I'm sure you could find exceptions if you looked for them, but most of the classes which synergize well will either start with heavy armor proficiency or not need it. Paladin always starts with at least chainmail, so even a warlock/paladin will work.
If the player wants heavy armor for a hybrid combination that doesn't get it, then he can still always take Strength 13 and Constitution 13 to qualify for chainmail proficiency. Nearly every class gets access to leather armor, so they'll have that prerequisite.
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4 years ago ::
May 02, 2009 - 11:36PM
#188
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Date Joined:
Sep 13, 2001
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If the player wants heavy armor for a hybrid combination that doesn't get it, then he can still always take Strength 13 and Constitution 13 to qualify for chainmail proficiency. Nearly every class gets access to leather armor, so they'll have that prerequisite.
The reason why players do not like the existing armour proficiency rules for hybrid characters is that it takes too many feats to gain enough armour proficiencies to get a good enough AC to be a front line character. The biggest issue is with the Paladin/Wizard hybrid. Such a character may have high Int. It will take a feat for Leather, two more for Chain and then another one or two for Light and Heavy shield. Many players do not like having to spend so many feats on Armour Proficiency. Even if they are willing to do so, it will take many levels before they feel they can function as a front line character.
So far, I have not seen any comments amongst players who have played a hybrid of a front line class and a back row class like a paladin/fighter who feel that the existing armour proficiency rules for hybrids is balanced or appropriate. Many of the comments are that a hybrid such as a paladin/wizard cannot properly function as a paladin at all due to lack of AC. Whether or not it is the intent of the designers to make such characters balanced, I do not know. All I know is players who have tried such a hybrid combo are unhappy with the performance of such a character.
<\
\>tuntman
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4 years ago ::
May 03, 2009 - 1:33PM
#189
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Date Joined:
Sep 27, 2003
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The reason why players do not like the existing armour proficiency rules for hybrid characters is that it takes too many feats to gain enough armour proficiencies to get a good enough AC to be a front line character. The biggest issue is with the Paladin/Wizard hybrid. Such a character may have high Int. It will take a feat for Leather, two more for Chain and then another one or two for Light and Heavy shield. Many players do not like having to spend so many feats on Armour Proficiency. Even if they are willing to do so, it will take many levels before they feel they can function as a front line character.
So far, I have not seen any comments amongst players who have played a hybrid of a front line class and a back row class like a paladin/fighter who feel that the existing armour proficiency rules for hybrids is balanced or appropriate. Many of the comments are that a hybrid such as a paladin/wizard cannot properly function as a paladin at all due to lack of AC. Whether or not it is the intent of the designers to make such characters balanced, I do not know. All I know is players who have tried such a hybrid combo are unhappy with the performance of such a character.
Only one more for chain from leather, but still, the point is you are WAY better off multiclassing than hybrid classing for Paladin/Wizard, and even then, Paladin/Wizard sucks.
Honestly, I don't think that EVERY class combo should work, so saying the system doesn't work because Paladin/Wizard doesn't work isn't good evidence, IMO.
That being said, there is still a noticeable AC hit to hybrid Paladins with most classes. The way we've handled it in my group is that you still only get armor proficiencies that are possessed by both classes, BUT you get any shield proficiencies that either class has. In addition, we have a hybrid-only feat that lets you take two armor proficiency feats (operates a lot like Multiclass Mastery does for multiclass feats.)
So far, it's solved the problem pretty well.
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4 years ago ::
May 03, 2009 - 4:19PM
#190
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Making hybrids retain shield profs is an option, but why not just allow hybrids to bypass stat prerequisites for armor and shield profs? That would allow wizard/insert melee class other than swordmage here to function well, and hybrids would still (in comparison to multiclassers) have lower HP, surges, and weaker features. Then again, the idea of a hybrid-only feat that could grant 2 armor proficencies is a good one as well, assuming of course that it would have low enough prerequisites to be relatively appealing for most hybrids.
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